Quran only recognizes defensive war - no offensive war or conquest
-
After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse
9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
And also this verse
9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
This verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on this one? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the jihad and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them
2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors
2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith
2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression
Also
2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say "Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.
Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.
9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term for God loveth the righteous.
9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
- If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. 7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for Allah doth love the righteous.
Also in the same chapter it explains the reason behind all of these battles fought
9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.
As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth . As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 608-9
Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ?Our Lord is God.? 2239-40
These verses show us clearly that the battles the believers fought was purely for defensive purposes as the believers were being persecuted because they believed in the teachings of the Quran. The pagans wanted the Quran to cease to exist and wanted the prophet and his followers to perish. This is why freedom of religion in the Quran is sacrosanct. The Koran more than any other literature guaranteed the absolute right for freedom of belief and expression and thought.
The Koran makes clear the job of the prophet
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it??
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
But most of all the Koran asks the prophet himself this question
10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand
Then again the Quran tells us
109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine
There is nothing even called conquest in the Koran and there is nothing called paying taxes and offensive war and spreading faith by the sword are not Koranic whatsoever and is a direct disobedience to the orders of the Koran. Jizya in the Quran came when the believers were entering Mecca where they were forced into exile and left their homeland losing their livelihoods, homes and businesses. Jizya was never mentioned except upon the pagans of Mecca. Jizya was a war reparation and compensation for damages. The prophet was in Medina where many non believers lived under his domain but was never ordered to seek Jizya. Later Muslim authorities applied Jizya to anyone living under a Muslim ruler who are not Muslims as a form of tax. This is not the context it appears in the Quran.
The Arabic term jizya appears in verse Quran 929, but the Qur'an does not specify jizya as a tax per head. According to Paul Heck, the jizya taxation seems to be a developed form of the Sassanian practice of taxation.
Commentators disagree on the definition and derivation of the word jizya
Shakir and Khalifa's English translations of the Qur'an render jizya as "tax", while Pickthal translates it as "tribute". Yusuf Ali prefers to transliterate the term as jizyah.
Yusuf Ali states "The derived meaning, which became the technical meaning, was a poll tax levied from those who did not accept Islam, but were willing to live under the protection of Islam, and were thus tacitly willing to submit to the laws enforced by the Muslim State."
Monqiz As-Saqqar attributes the word jizya to the root word jaza meaning "compensate" and defines it as "a sum of money given in return for protection".
Ibn Al-Mutaraz derives the word from 'idjz?, meaning "substitute" or "sufficiency" because "it suffices as a substitute for the dhimmi's embracement of Islam."
Yusuf al-Qaradawi says the word jizya is derived from the jazaa', meaning "reward", "return", or "compensation", and defines it as "a payment by the non-Muslim according to an agreement signed with the Muslim state".
Edward William Lane, in An Arabic-English Lexicon defines jizya as a "tax that is taken from the free non-Muslim subjects of a Muslim government whereby they ratify the compact that assures them protection.
Ibn Rushd explains that jizya is in fact a broader concept than just a head-tax. It also includes monies exacted in times of war ? what is normally understood in English by the word ?tribute? ? as well as levies (?ushr) on non-muslim merchants who are trading in the Dar al-Harb.In practice, the word is applied to a special type of tax, levied upon the non-Muslim adult males living under an Islamic state.
After the Norman conquest of Sicily, taxes imposed on the Muslim minority were also called the "jizya".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
Abrogation in Sunni/Shia Islam
?The contemporary Islamic al-Azhar influential scholar, Muhammad Sa`id Ramadan al-Buti, says in his well-known research ?The verse (95) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war which is demanded in Islamic law is not a defensive war, because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all Holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of Allah and the construction of Islamic society and the establishment of Allah?s kingdom on Earth regardless the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive Holy War.? ?
?Al-Suyuti does not see 2256 abrogated by 973, but a case of delaying or postponing the command to fight the infidels until the Muslims become strong. When they were weak, they were commanded to endure and be patient. The first verse that was revealed in the Qur?an about fighting in Medina is Surah 2 verse 190, until Surah 9 was revealed, and it was cancelled by Surah 9 verse 5. ?
So the Sunni/Shia concept that peaceful verses were abrogated by later verses that moved from defensive war to offensive has no backing from the Quran. This is because the permission allowed to fight has been outlined in the Quran. Only when provoked and forced should we fight. The prophet was a victim of religious coercion and persecution for religious propagation.
So we can see how the Islamic sects abrogated many the defensive war verses claiming verse 9.5 abrogated the defensive war only verses and changed it to offensive war. They believe in this due to the following hadith recorded in Bukhari's and Muslim's collections. Hadiths were compiled two centuries after the Quran was revealed.
Ibn ?Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, ?I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah.? (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)?
This hadith violates tens of Quranic commands about freedom and defensive war.
In the Quran we see the concept of religious persecution was a hallmark of pagan societies and oppressive tyrants.
They said "O Shuayb! Much of what thou sayest we do not understand! In fact among us we see that thou hast no strength! Were it not for thy family, we should certainly have stoned thee! For thou hast among us no great position!" 1191
(The father) replied "Dost thou hate my gods, O Abraham? If thou forbear not, I will indeed stone thee now get away from me for a good long while!" .1946
The (people) said "For us, We augur an evil omen from you if ye desist not, we will certainly stone you , or a grievous punishment indeed will be inflicted on you by us." 3618
They said "If thou desist not, O Noah! thou shalt be stoned. 26.116
Pharaoh said, "Did you believe in him without my permission? This must be a conspiracy you schemed in the city, in order to take its people away. You will surely find out. "I will cut your hands and feet on alternate sides, then I will crucify you all." 7.123-124
All of these verses tell us how the prophets were persecuted for their religious propogation. The prophet of the Quran met the same fate. He was ordered to fight back and to complete the message of the Quran. But he was also ordered to limit his duty to preaching. If the people decide on him to judge between them than he is to do with justice.
Quran is peace
-
After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse
9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
And also this verse
9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
This verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on this one? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the jihad and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them
2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors
2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith
2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression
Also
2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say "Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.
Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.
9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term for God loveth the righteous.
9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
- If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. 7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for Allah doth love the righteous.
Also in the same chapter it explains the reason behind all of these battles fought
9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.
As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth . As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 608-9
Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ?Our Lord is God.? 2239-40
These verses show us clearly that the battles the believers fought was purely for defensive purposes as the believers were being persecuted because they believed in the teachings of the Quran. The pagans wanted the Quran to cease to exist and wanted the prophet and his followers to perish. This is why freedom of religion in the Quran is sacrosanct. The Koran more than any other literature guaranteed the absolute right for freedom of belief and expression and thought.
The Koran makes clear the job of the prophet
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it??
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
But most of all the Koran asks the prophet himself this question
10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand
Then again the Quran tells us
109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine
There is nothing even called conquest in the Koran and there is nothing called paying taxes and offensive war and spreading faith by the sword are not Koranic whatsoever and is a direct disobedience to the orders of the Koran. Jizya in the Quran came when the believers were entering Mecca where they were forced into exile and left their homeland losing their livelihoods, homes and businesses. Jizya was never mentioned except upon the pagans of Mecca. Jizya was a war reparation and compensation for damages. The prophet was in Medina where many non believers lived under his domain but was never ordered to seek Jizya. Later Muslim authorities applied Jizya to anyone living under a Muslim ruler who are not Muslims as a form of tax. This is not the context it appears in the Quran.
The Arabic term jizya appears in verse Quran 929, but the Qur'an does not specify jizya as a tax per head. According to Paul Heck, the jizya taxation seems to be a developed form of the Sassanian practice of taxation.
Commentators disagree on the definition and derivation of the word jizya
Shakir and Khalifa's English translations of the Qur'an render jizya as "tax", while Pickthal translates it as "tribute". Yusuf Ali prefers to transliterate the term as jizyah.
Yusuf Ali states "The derived meaning, which became the technical meaning, was a poll tax levied from those who did not accept Islam, but were willing to live under the protection of Islam, and were thus tacitly willing to submit to the laws enforced by the Muslim State."
Monqiz As-Saqqar attributes the word jizya to the root word jaza meaning "compensate" and defines it as "a sum of money given in return for protection".
Ibn Al-Mutaraz derives the word from 'idjz?, meaning "substitute" or "sufficiency" because "it suffices as a substitute for the dhimmi's embracement of Islam."
Yusuf al-Qaradawi says the word jizya is derived from the jazaa', meaning "reward", "return", or "compensation", and defines it as "a payment by the non-Muslim according to an agreement signed with the Muslim state".
Edward William Lane, in An Arabic-English Lexicon defines jizya as a "tax that is taken from the free non-Muslim subjects of a Muslim government whereby they ratify the compact that assures them protection.
Ibn Rushd explains that jizya is in fact a broader concept than just a head-tax. It also includes monies exacted in times of war ? what is normally understood in English by the word ?tribute? ? as well as levies (?ushr) on non-muslim merchants who are trading in the Dar al-Harb.In practice, the word is applied to a special type of tax, levied upon the non-Muslim adult males living under an Islamic state.
After the Norman conquest of Sicily, taxes imposed on the Muslim minority were also called the "jizya".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
Abrogation in Sunni/Shia Islam
?The contemporary Islamic al-Azhar influential scholar, Muhammad Sa`id Ramadan al-Buti, says in his well-known research ?The verse (95) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war which is demanded in Islamic law is not a defensive war, because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all Holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of Allah and the construction of Islamic society and the establishment of Allah?s kingdom on Earth regardless the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive Holy War.? ?
?Al-Suyuti does not see 2256 abrogated by 973, but a case of delaying or postponing the command to fight the infidels until the Muslims become strong. When they were weak, they were commanded to endure and be patient. The first verse that was revealed in the Qur?an about fighting in Medina is Surah 2 verse 190, until Surah 9 was revealed, and it was cancelled by Surah 9 verse 5. ?
So the Sunni/Shia concept that peaceful verses were abrogated by later verses that moved from defensive war to offensive has no backing from the Quran. This is because the permission allowed to fight has been outlined in the Quran. Only when provoked and forced should we fight. The prophet was a victim of religious coercion and persecution for religious propagation.
So we can see how the Islamic sects abrogated many the defensive war verses claiming verse 9.5 abrogated the defensive war only verses and changed it to offensive war. They believe in this due to the following hadith recorded in Bukhari's and Muslim's collections. Hadiths were compiled two centuries after the Quran was revealed.
Ibn ?Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, ?I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah.? (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)?
This hadith violates tens of Quranic commands about freedom and defensive war.
In the Quran we see the concept of religious persecution was a hallmark of pagan societies and oppressive tyrants.
They said "O Shuayb! Much of what thou sayest we do not understand! In fact among us we see that thou hast no strength! Were it not for thy family, we should certainly have stoned thee! For thou hast among us no great position!" 1191
(The father) replied "Dost thou hate my gods, O Abraham? If thou forbear not, I will indeed stone thee now get away from me for a good long while!" .1946
The (people) said "For us, We augur an evil omen from you if ye desist not, we will certainly stone you , or a grievous punishment indeed will be inflicted on you by us." 3618
They said "If thou desist not, O Noah! thou shalt be stoned. 26.116
Pharaoh said, "Did you believe in him without my permission? This must be a conspiracy you schemed in the city, in order to take its people away. You will surely find out. "I will cut your hands and feet on alternate sides, then I will crucify you all." 7.123-124
All of these verses tell us how the prophets were persecuted for their religious propogation. The prophet of the Quran met the same fate. He was ordered to fight back and to complete the message of the Quran. But he was also ordered to limit his duty to preaching. If the people decide on him to judge between them than he is to do with justice.
Quran is peace
That is enlightening explanation.
I think you brought some important answers for the troubling question in my mind which ever confuse me when I read Qur'an verses related with carrying out war.
Thank you for sharing brother. )
Peace.
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Thank you very much for these knowledge. Now how should the following humans be treated according to Quran?
- The people who impose tax to people from other religions, because of their faith.
- The people who persecute minority, expel them, kill them because of their faith.
-
Thank you very much for these knowledge. Now how should the following humans be treated according to Quran?
- The people who impose tax to people from other religions, because of their faith.
- The people who persecute minority, expel them, kill them because of their faith.
The verses quoted tells us to fight back against those who wish to persecute us and force us into exile because of our faith or otherwise. It also tells us that we are to fight against any form of oppression.
49.9. If two parties of believers fall to fighting, make peace between them (and act promptly). But if one of them aggressively encroaches the rights of the other, then fight you all against the aggressive side until they comply with God's decree (concerning the matter). If they comply, then make peace between them with justice and be scrupulously equitable. Surely God loves the scrupulously equitable.
We are to fight against any form of aggression and oppression and we judge and rule between any parties we are to do so with proportionality and equity.
-
Probably you did not understand me earlier Bigmo. I was not talking about two parties of believers. I was talking about two parties one is sunni/shia, other may be Jews/Christians/atheist/hindu etc. You do know that, rulers from the past taxed people because of faith. Practiced oppression. They did that for political/other reasons, but they got support from hadiths. According to Quranic teaching, how should Jews/Christians/atheist/hindu etc treat these sunni/shia? And according to Quranic teaching, how should we, Quran aloner treat sunni/shia? Lets assume we have power to crush anybody standing on our way.
offtopic
I can remember a video where some talibans were stoning adulterous/adulteress. Clearly it is not a Quranic teaching. It is crime called "killing". Now lets consider I can spot everyone who carried out this heinous task and I have power over them. According to eye for eye law, can I carry out "recursive stoning" to everyone who stoned adulterous/adulteress?About "recursive stoning"
50 human(men,women) were the criminals who stoned. Lets separate one. This one is gonna die. And rest of 49 must stone him/her. one has gone to dogs. Grab another one. Remaining 48 must stone this new one. This process should go on and on. I am sure about the last one, though.
There is a reason for asking these disturbing questions History.
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I do not think that the tax in principle was based on religion, but on military service. If people of other religion chose not to do that service for the country, they were taxed instead, but it seems that everybody who choose not to join the armey was taxed even beeing muslim. I readthat that was the case for instance of egyptian peasants who did not want to join the army being muslims, they were taxed the same.
And I think that is logical, if you do not serve with your person at least serve with your money to keep the country safe for everybody.
Also, many of the most famous soldiers of the othoman empire were Christians I very much doubt that they were taxed.
Salaam
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understood because a believe would not wrong people to cause a war or conflict.
-
Peace,
True. But often the other part causes the war because they cannot stand the truth even if no provocation from the believers.
God bless you
-
Probably you did not understand me earlier Bigmo. I was not talking about two parties of believers. I was talking about two parties one is sunni/shia, other may be Jews/Christians/atheist/hindu etc. You do know that, rulers from the past taxed people because of faith. Practiced oppression. They did that for political/other reasons, but they got support from hadiths. According to Quranic teaching, how should Jews/Christians/atheist/hindu etc treat these sunni/shia? And according to Quranic teaching, how should we, Quran aloner treat sunni/shia? Lets assume we have power to crush anybody standing on our way.
offtopic
I can remember a video where some talibans were stoning adulterous/adulteress. Clearly it is not a Quranic teaching. It is crime called "killing". Now lets consider I can spot everyone who carried out this heinous task and I have power over them. According to eye for eye law, can I carry out "recursive stoning" to everyone who stoned adulterous/adulteress?About "recursive stoning"
50 human(men,women) were the criminals who stoned. Lets separate one. This one is gonna die. And rest of 49 must stone him/her. one has gone to dogs. Grab another one. Remaining 48 must stone this new one. This process should go on and on. I am sure about the last one, though.
There is a reason for asking these disturbing questions History.
Well if the Quran said to fight off the aggressor even if they are believers than it means there is no reason not to fight off any form of aggression. However my understanding of Sunni/Shia jizya is that it is about 5% or so. So jizya itself is not the problem but its the offensive war (conquest) that Islamic authorities allowed. Its that belief that you can conquer another nation in the name of Islam even if the other party has no quarrel with you that is my problem.
As far as how we are to respond from the Quran just enough to stop the aggression and not any further. At least that my reading of it.
As far as stoning to death I think that this should be dealt in a criminal court since there are different kinds of murder charges. Its actually a hard question since the people stoning the other person believe they are doing Islamic law and that is what they are told by the clerics. Stoning was not that common in Islamic history but slavery unfortunately was and during the Ottomans some conquest took place especially in its early history (Selim, Suleiman etc reign).
The Islamic authoirties arguments all fall under one issue, abrogation. They are ashamed to say the hadith abrogated the Quran so they searched for whatever verse they can find and used that as the abrogating verse. But even a casual look at verse 9.5 we can clearly see its a defensive command.
Good article about abrogation
Look at the amount of verses that they claimed verse 9.5 abrogated. Over 100 verses. There arguments is a very weak one. But many Muslims do not know. Abrogation is the Islamic sects dirty little secret they rarely disclose and it was the most contentious issue between the Mutaziltes (who rejected all form of abrogation) and the Sunni activist especially Al Shafi.
The "Verse of the Sword" refers to Quran 95, and due to how many verses it abrogates (about 113) hypno, we will write "Verse of the Sword" in place of this verse
http//wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an
Sunnis rely on the fact that many of the Muslims do not know about the extent of their abrogation.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_%28tafsir%29
Another good article about abrogation. All in all 1/11 of the Quran was claimed to have been abrogated. Shocking.
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Peace,
So, what about Solomon and Saba/Sheba? Solomon planned to attack them without any offensive threat.
The narration does not reveal if the queen of Sheba committed further atrocities in her delusions imposed by Satan. Perhaps she sacrificed humans or did other horrendous things.
The decree sent over to queen of Sheba told them to come "in Islam" which does not mean in submission but to harmonize themselves and not be arrogant. Refer to your own argument in the other thread about your beloved "peace". Solomon was likely not bound to attack a righteous civilization that did not do wrong and particularly oppressive things.
2724 ?And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.?
2743 And she was prevented by that which she served besides God. She was of the people who were rejecters corruptors.
Comment Even Satan was a kafir. It does not mean to reject. Queen of Sheba and her people likely did something very unrighteous.
Even we can wage war on a community that transgresses and oppresses people. In the end you may be right that the recitation does not only recognize defensive war, if it is to save the weak and children in another community. Depending on how you see it it is still defensive war however. In defense of those that are suffering and cannot fend for themselves. Solomon was not after conquering new lands but making sure that a balanced community was established in the lands of Sheba.
I am not arguing for or against the 'UN' and such organizations but their work may be similar to that of a community such as Solomon's. Peace-fighting troops sent in to save people from oppression are just doing exactly what God wants to be delivered. They are not rushing in to conquer lands but to fight until there is no more oppression and secure the area. That they are believers or not does not matter and they fulfill like 50% of the faith straight away.
We can argue if that is to be called offensive or defensive warfare, but it is not to loot another community or conquer lands.
God bless you
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"Quran only recognizes defensive war - no offensive war"
So, what about Solomon and Saba/Sheba? Solomon planned to attack them without any offensive threat.
Good point however I do not see enough information about that incident from the Quran. Plus when the Quran tried to establish something even though another prophet disobeyed it, it gave an explanation like Abraham's prayers to his father or Jonah's abandonment of his people etc. So there is no reason to do away with verses of the Quran that makes clear that fighting is only allowed for defensive purpose or to fight oppression.
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Those under the orders of Suleyman. bering in mind the kind of terms used to name them might not be actual warriors or armies but other kind of things enlisted not to conquer but to convince with reason or proofs. Like winning something with the weapons of goodness and reason.
Salaam
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They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim.
The religion of Islam is a violent religion, like any other organized religion.
Do anything to extend power wealth and authority, that's why the religion was being invented in the first place.The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.
Without religion there will be no conversion.
Conversion was created to make people join the religion, and makes it's leader more powerful.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.
The recommendation is clear since long time before the Quran, establish Justice!
Fight the oppression, oppression is much worse than murder.
The recommendation appeared hundreds of times in the Tanakh and Gospel and myriad of other books.And if you didn't established justice and become oppressor yourselves, be prepared to receive the fruit of your action.
The Quran told stories as example of how such God's law has being applied before.
From Egyptians who oppressed the Israelites... and how Egypt was destroyed.
Then the Israelites who in turned become an oppressor themselves.
And how their civilization was being destroyed.
The Quran mentioned twice, from historical fact we know that it refers to the Babylonian invasion and Roman invasion of Judea.The reader of the Quran was supposed to reflect on the example..
It's the goal of the action that matter, establish justice, ends the oppression.
Whether it's an offensive or defensive war doesn't really matter.If you're on side of the defensive and you witness that your side is the oppressor, then the recommendation is to join the offensive side if their goal is ending the oppression.
If none of the offensive or defensive parties are waging war to establish justice and ends the oppression and whomever wins shall become an oppressor themselves. Then don't join any of them and if you can, fight them all.All of these verses tell us how the prophets were persecuted for their religious propogation.
Minor correction
The prophets were persecuted by the religious for their idea propagation which is not inline with the religious ideas and posed a threat to the authority. The prophets never invented any religion and / or do dogmatic teaching.
Jesus never invented the religion of Christianity in the same manner as Muhammad never invented the religion of Islam.Salam / Peace
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Verse 9-29 is the only verse in the Koran that is not explicit. It talked about the people of the Book, usually meaning the Israelites. Most of the Koranic verses about fighting was concerning the pagans. I believe this probably is a implicit verse (mutashabihat). Perhaps dealing with the Jews of Mecca who were a smaller group of Jews than Medina. We know from Quran there was some referencing to fighting Jews allied with the pagans of Mecca but they were not the main fighting party.
But it is important to note that verse 9-29 is the only verses where the context is not clear. However the Koran covered the issue of fighting and it's legal reasons in many other verses.
The Koran also spoke about fighting against oppressors.
And what is with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?" 4.75
Also the prevent two believing parties from fighting each other.
If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair for Allah loves those who are fair (and just). 49.9