Jose Mujica - Atheist
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Shalom Aleikhem huruf,
Prove God? ?Prove love? What is God that you can prove? What is love that you can prove?
That is fallacious reasoning my friend. Its Apples and oranges. You simply can't categorize those two things and compare them. One is a feeling and the other is an entity. While I can refuse to believe that you a person has feelings for me, I cannot refuse to believe in their existence. One is subjective and the other is objective. Whether a God, an entity, exists or not is not a matter of subjective feelings or opinions. It is a matter of fact. Either it exists or it doesn't. Your subjective feelings and emotions are irrelevant here. This is an example of what you are doing here
Me I have a dog
You If your dog exists, please show me. Prove it to me
Me Prove Dog? ?Prove love? What is Dog that you can prove? What is love that you can prove?You simply did a category mistake there and that is fallacious reasoning. Of course if you convert your entity on trial into a feeling, one will never be able to objectively verify it's truth.
This kind of debate is pitiful, finally it revolves about words and what each person puts into them. How is anybody going to prove that what I have in my mind under any word at all exists or doe snot exist.
I disagree that its pitiful. Given the impact of "God beliefs" in human civilisation, I don't think a close examination of the topic is in vain. We can always learn from it. And...How will anyone provide evidence for their God? Just the same way you show your identification documents at airports or prove someone murdered someone in a courtroom trial. We do all of that with evidence and sound reasoning. Your line of reasoning implies that just because we cannot be a 100% certain about the accuracy of our mental model of the external universe, therefore there is no requirement of proving anything. I am sure you won't say that to me if I stole your things in front of you. I am sure you wont say "how do I know that what image I have in my mind exists or not therefore the person can also be totally not-stealing my things"!! These are distractions that I hate that misleads people. Nobody behaves like this in any other domain. As soon as they are put on trial to defend dogmatic beliefs, they start throwing these meaningless absurdities at the critic to get a way with unjustifiable beliefs in weird things.
Any proof of anything at all can only be provided for things that are within our reach, not for things that are not. Therefore, by definition nobody can prove God, and if they could prove it it would not be God. However one can experience things that are not within one's reach.
Yes, much like my invisible pet unicorn that is beyond this universe. It is an all knowing, all powerful invisible pet unicorn. It is beyond our universe thus beyond your reach. But I can experience my relationship with it even though its beyond my reach. Please understand why I can't prove to you that it is for real.
If you can't take that unicorn seriously, don't expect anyone to take your God seriously.
Peace
------------------ Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhem Jafar,
Makes no difference for me. That is because whether you are doing it for the sake of "religious elite" or some "high and mighty creator" is the same for me. That's not a good reason to do or not do good or evil. Doing things purely to please higher authority, aka kissing a*s, isn't that respectable of a thing to do according to my humble opinion.True, that's why I always admire the good atheist.
They're doing good deed for the sake of good deed, not for any 'reward' such as 72 virgins..
And they didn't do the bad deed because they hate the bad deed.And not all religious group are Theist, the Buddhist for example can be the non-theist religious group.
Although they're not Atheist,- There are as many definitions/concepts of God as there are believers of God. You just defined yet another god, your god.
People do have thousands or million varying definiton of God.
Although sad to say that my God or should I say my definition of God is not new at all.
The chinese and indians came up with the same idea at least 3500 years ahead of me.
The Israelites came up with the same idea at least 3000 years ahead of me.
And many others also beats me ahead on it..And the majority of the people who believe in God doesn't even know what is their own definition of God..
It's like, I believe in "KUTIZATI" although I don't know what "KUTIZATI" really is.
I just believe in "KUTIZATI" because everyone else told me to believe in it.
And if somebody said that they don't believe in "KUTIZATI" it freaks me out.
Because it will shake my belief in "KUTIZATI" because honestly I don't know what the heck "KUTIZATI" really is.As thus my question to you (which you haven't answered) is
WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF GOD?
As such you believe in it's non-existence.
- The definition you are suggesting is a clever one. This lets you push your God out of scope of falsifiability. Every time I will try to test it, you can always say that "its outside the universe". It is comparable to my claim of being able to be invisible when no one is observing/testing me. That is a very convenient characteristic to have. No one will even know if I am lying, mad or actually right!!
On contrary, my God is both outside and inside this universe.
It's here there everywhere and beyond.
Given to the fact that the fabric of space and time itself is a creation.. and it/he has no dependency towards the fabric of space and time in order to exist.I have to ask you, have you tested the universe or went beyond it to at least see what you are talking about? If you didn't, then your model of God isn't any more justifiable than a model that includes the universe as a part of God.
By soul I meant a person. The last time I believed that human beings had an immaterial part/spirit that can live without the body is around 2008 I think. Anyway, that is unnecessary information.
Your two statement above is correlated to each other.
So yes, whenever I sleep I left this universe.
I've lost any sense of space and time during such period.
Yet I continue to exist, or at least I'm aware that I'm exist.
The evidence is I experienced things during such state, human named such phenomenon as "dreaming".
During such state I lost any sense of this universe space and time.
When I returned to this universe, I need to do some 'recalling', where am I (Space) and what date/time is it (Time).Some said that the 'soul' is "God's breath".. thus a sage named God as "Father", the source of existence.
Proving the "soul" existence is the same as proving "God's existence".
In a sense that both doesn't require time and space in order to exist.I find it odd to find people who believe in existence of soul also believe in the non-existence of God.
"Where does lighting come from? Someone must be throwing it". Then it is just a matter of time before these beliefs gets passed on from generation to generation. We are complex beings, it shouldn't take us much to come up with religion.
True all religion are human invention.
Yet religion has no correlation with God or God's existence..I was talking about big questions such as the origins of the heaven and the earth, the nature of reality, where we came from, where are we headed, etc.
We have the answer to such question already as we speak.
Heaven (such as stars, planet and galaxy) and earth is a matter.
Matter made up of atomic particles.
Atomic particle requires the fabric time and space in order to exist.
Time and space was created or initially expanded after the Big Bang.That was the beginning. Or should I say the Big Bang was the event that is the beginning of time.
Before the big bang the fabric of time and space doesn't exist.The definition of the end of this universe is clear, it will be the destruction of space and time.
An event where space and time will no longer be exist.
Because space and time no longer exist, so does everything that depends on it, such as matter (earth, human, living being, stars etc..)How it shall happened I subscribed to two scenario, it could be either a "Big Crunch"
Where space and time "shrink" into the state of singularity (where it was once before the big bang).
Or the "Big Rip" where space and time "ripped apart" into the state of singularity. (where it was once before the big bang).The video that discuss the matter
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYc8iRyL7YUThe information pose another question.
What exist before the big bang and what exist after the big crunch/big rip?There is a contradiction there between the two things I highlighted in red. According to the second thing you said, the universe EXPANDED. So, it was essentially ALREADY THERE. Otherwise, WHAT EXPANDED? If it was already there, then the "was created part" makes no sense. On top of that, no one ever proved it was CREATION. The word "CREATION" is in a way loaded. It assumes a CREATOR. Which you haven't demonstrated. So I am not comfortable in using that term to express the expansion of the universe from a singularity. I hope you understand why that is so due to intellectual honesty.
What do you mean by it was already there??
Universe or should I say the fabric of space and time is still expanding.
Well we don't know for sure as per "current" situation since time itself is relative.The more correct statement is actually
Based on the information that we received now which is telling of what actually happened billions years ago, due to the billion light years distance between our planet and the observed object such as another galaxies, the universe is still expanding at least until billion years ago.As for the "Singularity" state, such state can be observed on the center of our own galaxy.
The black hole.
Black hole is a phenomenon where space and time (and everything that depends on it) just 'disappear'.
By the word 'disappear' it means "Infinite Mass and Zero Volume".Within the black hole, all of the (God's) law on this universe ceased to be true (or enforced).
Law of gravity, Law of Thermodynamics etc..
The black hole is mind boggling, yet it's true and it exist.You should go back and read what I wrote about defining things into existence. I can come up with a lot of non-falsifiable ideas. That doesn't make them true. It just makes them not falsifiable. The burden of proof will still be on the person claiming that the thing does exist.
In a similar fashion, we can theorize God bit by bit. Of course none of that is possible for something that doesn't exist to begin with.
As such you have to provide proof on why you believe in the non-existence of God.
First by sharing what's your definition of God.There's a difference between Atheist (Believing of the non-existence of God) and non-Theist. (Doesn't discuss it at all).
The Non-Theist doesn't need to provide proof but Atheist does...
The Buddhist is among the "Non-Theist".For example. Let me claim now that there is a shoe that is beyond this universe. What now? Does it make sense to believe in it just because its beyond this universe?
Yes it could be something beyond this universe..
Infact there could be trillion of other universe..On top of that, God doesn't have to be inside the universe for us to validate its existence. For example, you can pray for a Ferrari in God's name and we will test the result. We will repeat it multiple times by different people throughout the globe to validate that prayers work.
There has been an experiment on the case above.
And it shows no correlation.Your statement that "Praying is an act to persuade God to do human's will" is due to influence of your culture or religion.
Specifically "Mediterranean" culture and religion.Praying also known as Meditating is actually an act to prepare oneself to what shall be happening.
Also known as to peacefully accept God's will.
As God's will shall happened anyway...
The true objective of praying and meditating is to obtain peace within the prayer..With such understanding of the objective of praying / meditating.
There has been another experiment to test the hypothesis of "Does praying/meditating really brings peace to the prayer?"
The result is positive, praying/meditating resulted in- Lower heart rate and blood pressure
- Less activity in the brain
- Boost Oxytocin, the hormone who is responsible for the feelings of empathy and peace within Mammals.
Unless you live under shariah P
I have said before on this forum that the Islamist God is a fake God, Islamist God doesn't exist.
Why?
Because, their God is so weak as such the God need human's help to enforce His own law / decree.
And Islamist God's law is so ridiculous that it governed meticulous thing such as "head covers", "no peeing facing Kabba" etc..Of course those Shariah law was actually human invented law.
Otherwise all of those law will be automatically enforced, such as the law of gravity, the law of thermodynamics etc..
The above is the True God's law.b) it is RIGHT then for that God to throw you in a lake of fire ( Praise be to God, infinitely merciful, isn't he? ) )
I have pondered on why the "tone" of the Tanakh and the Quran is so harsh with "Behave or Suffer" ultimatum.
Then during watching of the video, which one member of this forum posted about the brutality of the ISIS in Iraq.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQSDeZxrLsUI understand why it is so..
Because that specific "tone" is the only mode of communication that works towards such brutal people.
For such brutal people the brutal mode of communication is the only suitable mode of communication.Salam / Peace
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I have said before on this forum that the Islamist God is a fake God, Islamist God doesn't exist.
Why?
Because, their God is so weak as such the God need human's help to enforce His own law / decree.
And Islamist God's law is so ridiculous that it governed meticulous thing such as "head covers", "no peeing facing Kabba" etc..Your reason is strange
Otherwise all of those law will be automatically enforced, such as the law of gravity, the law of thermodynamics etc..
The above is the True God's law.It's realm of knowledge, even it's true, it's invented by the humans.
If God gave all the formulas of mathematic, physics or other sciences explicitly in the Scripture, then this make human lazy for researches, not productive because already written in Scripture. -
Student of Allah,
There is no stupid Arab God only a force in the galaxies. Why do you throw that shit in my face?
Believe in a supernatural force or not but please behave better around here will you? Do not see me like a stup diot because I believe that there is an intelligent maker of sorts to this.
I have his scripture "Quran" because it seemed like a rational person wrote it that was inspired by he force that left signs here on Earth. And that was not the only people this force came to either but there are remainders of faith around the globe in Asian faiths and the Native Americans etc, so you make me boil when you say my stupid Arab God because you put me in a folder like I follow Islam which I do not but I only follow that force and whatever guidance I found. I could not care less about an Arab god that wants to kill disbelievers and things that are not even supported by the recitation by alleged Muhammad.
"My" damn scripture is not the problem here at all and I came to the force before I had EVER read a book called Quran and that was while philosophizing about my own existence. And I can believe without a freaking book and I can believe despite your words to mock me and ridicule how I can believe in an Arab god. This damn "religion" does not even have a name but is just faith in X and Islam was just the kind of mission like in establish balance as a system.
The force wants good people that are good by heart and not those who follow some darn scripture by heart and that was the test from the start. The system in society should be good, fair with justice and evil should be prevented as in save people from oppression. Do good and believe that is the only message from a scripture called "Quran" worth remembering and some obvious rules already deeply known to man like do not murder, lie or treat others unfairly which already fall under the category of be good.
That book you do not appreciate contains mostly of reasons to believe and I liked the similitudes. It does not teach much to someone already good at heart but you can always be reminded. And it was aimed towards a crowd more than a millennium ago so it is not for us directly but you can trace signs from it and understand the mission. And the decree is the same to us.
If you do not like that book then practice your faith without it but do something good and live in symbiosis with your creator.
I do not believe in a coincidental evolution that just came into existence on its own. That is my logic.
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Peace Student of Allah.
Thank you for the time and effort spent to answer everyone.
I agree with you.You have made your decision and good luck.
Brother, I have also made my decision., I cannot go back. I really believe GOD when He says
If you backslide, after the clear proofs have come to you, then know that God is Almighty, Most Wise.
Are they waiting until God Himself comes to them in dense clouds, together with the angels? When this happens, the whole matter will be terminated, and to God everything will be returned.Take care.
Peace. -
Brother, I have also made my decision., I cannot go back. I really believe GOD when He says
If you backslide, after the clear proofs have come to you, then know that God is Almighty, Most Wise.
Are they waiting until God Himself comes to them in dense clouds, together with the angels? When this happens, the whole matter will be terminated, and to God everything will be returned.Take care.
Peace.sun
I'm glad, good logic! groupPeace.
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Peace,
I cannot back down either. The Master has blessed me and I feel no doubt whatsoever. It does not matter what anyone would say because the signs I have seen are too strong. It is pointless to argue with me about that, but I wish that those who do not believe could see the truth as I see it and the signs that I see. And most are saying about my Master things that are blatant lies such as tyranny and indecency based on "scriptural evidence" which is in its turn based on lackluster translations/interpretations.
What is 'Arab god' for God's sake? Warning Insult attempt in ignorance.
It is more illogical and senseless to believe that all out of nothing a whole universe was created without any assistance of kind. The probability, even including the vast size of cosmos, that life would develop haphazardly is virtually nonexistent. No background intelligence and just evolution with no ultimate goal. Some smart people understood that in the past (see Muhammad) and they wrote a recitation. It does not matter that Muhammad wrote it with or without guidance, because he grasped something quite unique, sadly enough, among humans. And few people are really believers even if they say they are, not without polluting their faith in various ways.
Heck even Ebrahem thousands of years ago discovered the truth before any text-based information was available. This near stone age person grasped more than people with all their fancy science. Science is even based around a creation which was designed by my Master, not the other way around. And ask me to use science to explain and confirm something that stands above the world as we know it is ridiculous. And those faithless can prove to me that The Master does not exist. The other way around. And you shall never do this because the signs of the Creator are too inevitable.
It is word against word. The Master is invisible due to a test and no one can prove anything to the other. So stop ridiculing those who believe without knowledge. Is it not better to have faith in something rather than think that you are born and then you die to never exist again? You could as well kill yourself right away because your life serves no purpose. No result score or nothing.
There is always an action preceeding a condition which you should remember. Search your feelings. Feel the Force surround you. It is in all living creatures. In the birds. In the trees. In you. What keeps it running?
How do the birds fly? Why is that?
What keeps the ships from sinking? How is that?
Why is life carbon based?
What created laws of gravity?
Why is electricity produced? What created electricity? Did evolution create electricity?
What is fire? What is light?
If a supernatural force is not present how can single cells develop into something more sophisticated and knowing which path to take to develop into a more advanced being? What caused it to become intelligent enough to know how to behave? What created this intelligence in the cell?
Answer those questions and I know you will not be able to and I fear for you a troublesome day. It is the adherents to science solely that are ignorant fools just as those who ignore science. A balance in the Force is what you shall seek. It became sweaty now that your miniscule knowledge cannot explain it, yes?
The reason you are not to know the One that created all this, that let it come into existence, is to first reveal your true character or otherwise it would be too easy would it not? Signs are plentiful already as shown above except that you cannot prove this tremendous energy because it is simply like your brainwaves. Try to read those.
It is just a game. And your game has just game over and no reprisals while mine has a score table with real effects connected to the score. If you know 1 + 1 you realize that you are going to return to "someone" as your energy will just as The Master not disappear. And scientists theorize there will be a big implosion after the big explosion and that is just what is going to happen. Mountains folded like paper, that is truly true. And to The Master everything will return, including the energies of the "dead" people which may be saddening to you without reformation.
And know that nothing of which I spoke is from an Arabic book called Quran. And know the Master's "pen" does never run out of ink. Even George Lucas may carry out The Master's will without perceiving as signs.
Good night. Too late at night just to write about The Master's mission. Oh well, for that I could stay up all night, but well I think I conveyed the right words.
God bless you
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I cannot back down either. The Master has blessed me and I feel no doubt whatsoever. It does not matter what anyone would say because the signs I have seen are too strong. It is pointless to argue with me about that, but I wish that those who do not believe could see the truth as I see it and the signs that I see.
sun
Happy to know it, brother! groupAnd most are saying about my Master things that are blatant lies such as tyranny and indecency based on "scriptural evidence" which is in its turn based on lackluster translations/interpretations.
Indeed.
Peace.
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Hello Everyone,
I am brand new to this forum, and am somewhat intimidated to contribute to this discussion, as things seem heated and emotional, however, I cannot help but see that there seems to be a miscommunication of sorts going on between others and the desperately-wanting-to-be-understood, SoA. I in no way want to "rock the boat" or pick sides, but I feel as if SoA is speaking out of reason and rational thought. He/she doesn't seem to be emotional-SoA is just seeking honesty. She/he has asked for evidences or proofs for claims and has been met with, primarily, emotional responses.
I think what it comes down to is truth. Whether SoA is right or ManofFaith is or Jafar is or JavaLatte is, etc etc, we are all on here in search of truth; we are NOT searching for subjective truth (which can not exist), but OBJECTIVE truth. Whether I believe I am a mailbox or not, I am not a mailbox. Even if I believe with all of my heart that I am a mailbox, and I claim that to be true, the fact of the matter is that I am NOT one.
Overall, I have come to the conclusion that people of religion = people of faith. We pride ourselves on having faith in the unseen and allow our emotions to play an VERY large role in our relationship with our God (whether that be an "essence", a "force", an omnipotent being, etc). In order to be as honest and truthful as possible, we need to be sure to say to ourselves at the end of the day "it comes down to faith".
When reading Quranic "proofs", it can end up seeming like cheating a bit. I feel oftentimes as if in order to look for these proofs, we started with the conclusion and then worked our way backwards. As science evolves, we continue to "find" miracles in the Quran by looking back at things and twisting them to fit the recent discoveries of science. I find creating these links to be fun and interesting BUT to regard them as FACTUAL proofs seems, as SoA would put it, "undeniably unfalsifiable".
Ultimately, the fact of the matter is that I have NO evidence to prove that an Arab God exists. Or a Jewish one. Or a Christian one. Or a Greek one. Or any of the Hindu gods. I can believe with all my heart that my God exists, but the hard evidence just is not present at this time and place. Perhaps in future with the development of science, we will discover something, but the HONEST truth is that right now, we have nothing to offer up to atheists in the way of physical/honest/rational proofs.
That doesn't make God less real for the believers.
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Ultimately, the fact of the matter is that I have NO evidence to prove that an Arab God exists. Or a Jewish one. Or a Christian one. Or a Greek one. Or any of the Hindu gods. I can believe with all my heart that my God exists, but the hard evidence just is not present at this time and place. Perhaps in future with the development of science, we will discover something, but the HONEST truth is that right now, we have nothing to offer up to atheists in the way of physical/honest/rational proofs.
That doesn't make God less real for the believers.
So am I. . therefore I don't believe in God.
I believe in God when I see Him with my eyes , when I talk to God . . .
Until that time , I don't understand what is God. . and therefore I don't believe in God.
. . .
The reason ?
Premise 1 Allah is not God
Say ?He is Allah, One,? ?Allah, the Absolute,? ?He does not beget, nor was He begotten,? ?And there is none who are His equal.? (112)
The interpretation of Allah/God in the Quran is subjected to the "definition clause of Allah" in the Quran . . . ie. not God.
Premise 2 Allah is the Mutasyaabihat
He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And none will remember except the people of understanding. (3.7)
This is useless from the aspect of to believe in "God", and for the following verse. . .
Premise 3 Allah said I don't believe in God
The Nomads said ?We believe.? Say ?You have not believed; but you should say ?We have submitted?, for belief has not yet entered into your hearts.? If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful. (49.14)
"You have not believed", meaning they don't believe in "Allah" etc. . . faith is "0".
. . .
Therefore, I can lie to myself and say I believe in God accordance to verse 3.7 but it is useless. It is not really what we called "belief". In facts , I might as well believe "I am God" (they have locked my thread) since there is nothing exists but God. For all these reasons , it is useless for me to deceive myself and say I believe in God when I don't even see God. It is lying and does not contribute anything to real growth of humanity other than creating more sects and denominations, and the killing of each other. . .ie. corruption!
And when it is said to them,
"Do not cause corruption on the earth," <- creating sectarianism, the ideology of "I'm right, you're wrong!", Bigot!
they say, "We are but reformers." <- because they think it is religion, it is what God want.
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters <- kill others for "religion" and on the issue of what is God etc
but they perceive not. <- this is stupidity !
211-12Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return.
2.18I better waste my time thinking about the practical way of life rather getting deep into illusion and creating more divisions after the other. My truth . . . the meaning of "believe God in the Quran is not about believing in God" . . but about to believe in the clear and practical commands and prohibitions of Allah in the Quran. It is about those commands/prohibitions. . not God !
. . .
Conclusion. . . I don't believe in God , and the Quran speaks about the "Deen"
The Deen of Islam is about "practical way of life".
It is not about "submission", it is about the system to "assimilate" with all religions, ie. life!! ("What is Islam?" (they have locked my thread))
It is our life. . . today, not previous and not the future . . . neither it is about life in paradise or hell. .
It is at this moment , and use it wisely because it our "Deen" , and it is "Islam" !
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Peace,
I gave reasons why it is illogical not to be an intelligence behind all this. The traditional concept of a neanderthal god that needs to be primitively pleased is not true however. Not all emotional, but a quite intensive post with a show of strategy as to how to attack the foolish arguments to say there is no supernatural force responsible for this existence. I accept those who still say that there is no intelligent being hiding, but they should not be so darn right about their certainty that there is no godlike entity a d then say an armada of reasons why it is so idiotic to believe in a god being based on arguments from some stupid book while the truth is not in some kind of book but in existence itself. It is so ignorant to say there is no such similar intelligence behind it because of reasons mentioned in my previous post even if that "god" does not have a persona like traditionalists portray.
And cells on an extremely primitive level needs a blueprint of sorts to develop because what kind of superbeing is that cell otherwise?
How do you explain DNA?
I do not at all deny science and the empirical research, but it has never been conflicting with my faith except traditional primitive neanderthal "religious" arguments.
At the bottom it is simply a fight good vs. evil, ie a balance in the energy. Nothing primitive as innately the human seems to wish to do good but not always competent in how to do so. Not even many religious people have caught the attention to what their faith is really about, to establish a balance in symbiosis with their Creator and not some hocus pocus with a lot of mumbo jumbo. And that force in the galaxies have no need at all of you but it is only a show that you deserve a part of it through your personal character meaning you sort of merge with it, hence the constant repetition of salat and prayer in religious scriptures.
God bless you
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Peace,
And what kind of proof do you want? To be struck by lightning?
You cannot see The Master nor gauge but only the result action because The Master is not visible.
Had the Master been a human, The Sovereign would have laughed, but does not do so because it is not a human being we talk about.
God bless you
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Peace Blameless.
Thank you for bringing your balanced view.
Who has" conclusive" proof? Do you think GOD is not able to provide such proof?
Then why are we still divided , unsure and searching?Because if everyone was to see "proof" , they will believe and there will be no "choice". The matter will be settled.
SoA, the same as everyone else ,chooses to believe or disbelieve in whatever he wants.
Everyone is simply giving their view , as they are entitled to, for ,against or neutral.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Who has" conclusive" proof? Do you think GOD is not able to provide such proof?
Then why are we still divided , unsure and searching?Because if everyone was to see "proof" , they will believe and there will be no "choice". The matter will be settled.
SoA, the same as everyone else ,chooses to believe or disbelieve in whatever he wants.
Everyone is simply giving their view , as they are entitled to, for ,against or neutral.
Lovely post! http//3.bp.blogspot.com/--h4eLCX9klE/UZHjEBYfY2I/AAAAAAAADoo/W5bcUQjtXls/s1600/thumb-up-facebook-emoticon-like-symbol.png
Peace. http//4.bp.blogspot.com/-5BFO3PDratE/Tv9GFxyXbXI/AAAAAAAAAj8/xjYxSRsI3IU/s400/kiki%2Bemoticon.png
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Peace Blameless.
Thank you for bringing your balanced view.
Who has" conclusive" proof? Do you think GOD is not able to provide such proof?
Then why are we still divided , unsure and searching?Because if everyone was to see "proof" , they will believe and there will be no "choice". The matter will be settled.
SoA, the same as everyone else ,chooses to believe or disbelieve in whatever he wants.
Everyone is simply giving their view , as they are entitled to, for ,against or neutral.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Indeed.
And, people usually turn things up side down. People demand proof from a source other than them... that someone or something should bring proof to convince them. It would be much more fruitful to think of it in terms of BEING ABLE to SEE. Perhaps the problem is that we are unable to see the signs, proof, evidence that are all around. The problem is OUR blindness, not the lack of proof. The argument for lack of proof may very well just be an ignorant way to blame the other for our own blindness.
Peace
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Right, it is something like when in a previous post I asked whether one can prove love. Everybody takes for granted its existence, but finally it all revolves on what one intelectually understands as love. Nut love has more to it than intelect and nobody masters it. People experience it and there may be not two experiences that are the same, but nobody sets out to prove love. Love is not there for intellectual prowesses but to experience it or to fear to experience it. Who requires a proof of the existence of love? We may require from somebody a proov that he or she loves us, but we do not question that love exists. Same with God. Intellect is no proof of anything, intellect is a power but all power has its limits. ?How on earth can anybody proof something that is beyond his limits? Beyond our limits we cannot disprove or prove anything. But we can experience, and, as Zulf has said, we can see, we can make sense of many things, nothing extraordinary, but sense. And if that does not make sense to somebody else, that is that somebody else's problem not of the person who does see sense. I can remember long time ago people who claimed to be atheists used to look down on those who believed. Today I think atheists far more humble and they are not proud and assume that they are intellectually over you. At least those I talk with. Thank God.
And again, most of the time it all depends on what one puts within a word. For some love is this but not that or God is so and so, for others it is something else, so agreeing on something categoric when in each mind there is a different image is meaningless.
I rather look at people through the names of God, not through what they say. They may say this and then act as something else. They may say "I cannot believe" and then act out with utmost justice more than if they did 10 salaat a dar. What is that? That is remembering God by His al 3adl. They do totally believe in God through that name. In fact I think all of us have been given a name of God with which we remember Him.
Salaam
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Peace Family
@Blameless, do not be intimidated, have your say and enjoy the conversation! In regards to the topic, the Quran
is clear in it's description of God and the limitations of humans regarding God's existence. The words
"believe in the unseen" is one of the Key phrases that needs to be analyzed to bring the discussion into focus.
one cannot "prove" the unseen one can only believe in the unseen because regarding the unseen there is no
material to see, touch, measure, or observe under normal circumstances. In personal cases of supernatural
experiences, the event cannot usually be repeated as per the scientific method therefore the unseen is impossible
to prove using philosophy or science. If the atheist who takes the scientific or philosophical approach misses these
observations then I would say that the omission is born out of ignorance or emotion.Questions Why do atheists return to question the believers that possess proof?
Is it because they think that we are as close as they can get to God?
These types of discussions go round and round because the subject is the unseen!
Definition of supernatural (adj)
Bing Dictionary
su?per?nat?u?ral- not of natural world relating to or attributed to phenomena that cannot be explained by natural laws
2.relating to deity relating to or attributed to a deity
3.magical relating to or attributed to magic or the occult
Copied from How the Scientific Method Works
by William Harris
Limitations of the Scientific Method
Clearly, the scientific method is a powerful tool, but it does have its limitations. These limitations are based on
the fact that a hypothesis must be testable and falsifiable and that experiments and observations be repeatable.
This places certain topics beyond the reach of the scientific method. Science cannot prove or refute the existence
of God or any other supernatural entity.Conclusion
Could it be that religions and atheism are belief systems?
11/123 And Allah's is the unseen in the heavens and the earth, and to Him is returned the whole of
the affair; therefore serve Him and rely on Him, and your Lord is not heedless of what you do.God bless
peace
- not of natural world relating to or attributed to phenomena that cannot be explained by natural laws
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"believe in the unseen" is one of the Key phrases that needs to be analyzed to bring the discussion into focus.
Except that Allah said "That is the Book about which there is no doubt" (2.2).
That could not refer to the Quran since . . . Allah said "no doubt", whereas the Quran has the Mutasyaabihat elements . . ie. full of doubts. This could easily be proven . . . and not also to forget "the Book", what Book ? This is chapter al-Baqarah and there are 25 chapters which have not been revealed. . .and Allah should say "That is the Book Chapter/Verses about which there is no doubt", and not referring to the whole content of that Book. Therefore, it is the following book . . .
Indeed, it is a Noble Quran
In a protected Book
None can grasp it
except those purified (from shirk, self)
(5677-79)God did not make any man with two hearts in his body. (33.4)
Secondly . . Allah said "Those are upon guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful." (2.5) , meaning Allah is referring to those who have already succeeded in becoming a True Believer through complying all the conditions in 2.1-5, not like those Bedouins who are saying "We have believed.? Say, ?You have not believed" (49.14). The Bedouins are not "Those are upon guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful." (2.5). Similarly , we are not "those who are the successful" in 2.1-5.
The ayat is referring to . . .
The believers ARE ONLY the ones
who have believed in Allah and His Messenger
and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah
It is those who are the truthful.
(49.15)The believers ARE ONLY those who,
when Allah is mentioned, their hearts become fearful, and
when His verses are recited to them, it increases them in faith; and
upon their Lord they rely
(8.2)What have "those who are the successful" have accomplished ?
- They have attained the true understanding of Alif Lam Meem.
Alif
Lam
Meem- They have accomplished consciousness, and "Iqra". . .not the Book, but "in the name of your Lord", and "who has created".
And He taught Adam the names - all of them.
2.31-
They have seen the "unseen", not like those who are lying to themselves but have not known a single thing about the unseen. In fact, they can't even see jin and syaitan and yet claimed to believe the unseen, believe what ? funny, so blind. . . and what are these "unseen" things ? Whatever Muhammad has experienced, since he is our Messenger and he is a human being like us. . . we are his followers.
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They have acquire "wisdom" and successfully established the system of balance and justice in all aspect of their life.
He grants wisdom to whom He pleases
and whoever is granted wisdom
he indeed is given a great good
and none but men of understanding mind
(2269)- They have spend their property in the way of Allah, everything.
By no means shall you attain to righteousness
until you spend (benevolently)
out of what you love (ie. give all)
and whatever thing you spend
Allah surely knows it
(392)And they ask you as to what they should spend (sadaqah)
Say What you can spare
Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications
that you may ponder
(2219)- They have studied the Quran and previous revelations and have successfully practices the function of "Confirming Book" in every aspect of life. They have understand and live with the facts that "mankind is one single nation", ie. as Adam.
Only those who have successfully accomplished all the above "are the successful", only "Those are upon guidance from their Lord, " (Iyyaka naAAbudu wa-iyyaka nastaAAeen) and the subject matter of 2.1-5 . . . not the Bedoins like us who say "We have believed.? Say, ?You have not believed" (49.14).
Do the people think
that they will be left to say,
"We believe"
and they will not be tried?But We have certainly tried those before them
and Allah will surely make evident
those who are truthful
and He will surely make evident
the liarsOr do those who do evil deeds think they can outrun Us?
Evil is what they judge
(292-4)