Does God punish us in this world ?
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Peace,
I like the Quranic verse chosen by roshan_m. I think it sheds much light on this topic. However, I'm not so convinced of a simplistic karmic law. When we are born into this world we do so in a perfectly designed body. At the early stages of our lives we are all naturally inclined to be in awe and admiration of everything in Gods creation. As we grow up we often tend to destroy these precious gifts. As adults eg it gets harder to be amazed. We take the beauty of this creation for granted and loose our respect for it. We harm our bodies by harmful habits etc. As submitters to God we strive to keep that respect intact. Respect for the perfectly designed body we were given and the perfect natural creation we experience everyday. In this sense I do not believe in punishment on a personal level that is cast down upon us. We are free to believe (submit) or disbelieve (not submit). There is no compulsion in belief. If we suffer bad fortunes in our lives and we investigate the root of those events, most of the time we will find they originated in a choice we made in the past - by free will - and we chose to continue on that road instead of showing remorse to find a more righteous way. I use the phrasing "bad fortunes" because I dont think "punishment" is the correct word. In hardship we often find the keys to remorse. God is most merciful and gives us plenty of chances to submit to Him.
The mechanism on a non-personal level is pretty much similar. It's just a macroscopic analogy. Societies/cultures that do not submit to God do so in free will. Not submitting to God is by nature harmful. The misfortunes arising from that refusal to submit contain clear signs and offer opportunity to show remorse and find a more righteous system. If a society persists in not submitting, it chooses for it's own destruction. Not as a punishment, but by free will. Not submitting is in essence a self-destructive act as it goes against nature and the whole creation of God.
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- Does God punish us for our sins in this life ?
- Does God reward us for our good deeds in this life ?
I believe it is the system. . . applicable to all human beings.
"And whoever turns away from My remembrance, <- about the system, the design, science etc
then he will have a miserable life,
and We will raise him blind on the Day of Resurrection."
20.124Say "He is able to send retribution
from above you or
from below your feet, or
He will make you belong to opposing factions,
then He will let you taste the might of each other."
See how We dispatch the signs, perhaps they may understand.
6.65- How to know difference between "God punishing us" and "God testing us" ?
When they are not able to understand "pleasure or blessings" and not able to use it according the injunction of Allah. .
Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return (2.1
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- The ruins of great civilizations should give you a good idea.
It's a very good question I pondered about some time ago. After analysing my life, life of other friends and yes great civilisations as well, I realised that there is one verse that explains the best this question
Quran, 479 'What comes to you of good is from Allah , but what comes to you of evil, , is from yourself.'
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What goes around it comes around,
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How about people born in really bad,cruel environment? That's quite tricky side
Agree with the above post.
And the teaching / idea of "What goes around comes around" can be found nearly in all part of the globe.
Cited by many great sages throughout different culture.And it can be proven by observing the history,
How the great conqueror became conquered.
The great enslaver became enslaved.
The great slaughterer became slaughtered.
The great robber became robbed.
The great destroyer became destroyed.From Roman Empire, Abbasid, Ummayad, Fattimid Caliphates, Mongol Empire, Greek Empire, Egyptian Empire etc.. the list goes on and on
Now regarding the question number 3.
An example
What about innocent greek girl being raped and enslaved by the invading Persians?
What about innocent persian girl being raped and enslaved by the invading Arabs?
What about innocent arab girl being raped and enslaved by the invading Mongols?
What mistakes did they do to suffer such horrible fate?This is indeed a tricky question.
The eastern tradition solved this by 'soul reincarnation'.According to them, it could be the soul of "innocent arab girl" was a "a rapist and enslaving Arab solider" in her past life.
And the soul of "innocent persian girl" was a "a rapist and enslaving Persian solider" in her past life.
And so on...Regardless of whether it's true or not, the belief of 'soul reincarnation' does ignite an empathy.
It makes people think twice before doing some atrocities.
Because, in the next life they could be living as the victim of such atrocities.
What goes around shall comes around.Salam / Peace
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I strongly disagree with the karmic law interpretation. As shown in above post, it does not add up until some white rabbit like reincarnation gets pulled out of the magicians hat to make the whole idea righteous and fair. Karma and reincarnation are not Islamic ideas. They are exotic ideas which I reject.
The whole confusion starts with the question in my opinion. If you consider hardships experienced in life as punishments and enjoyable moments as rewards, we will never understand how this reality is designed and what purpose it serves. This is a childlike attitude towards life in general.
Reality about life is more complex than a reward/punishment system. This whole universe is a system that imposes certain laws by design. Anything in this universe - whether that's a plant, a human being, an animal or a celestial body - that does not give back what it receives is on the path to self-destruction. Modern societies and great civilisations of the past are characterized by greed and immorality, it's no coincidence that greed leads to decadence and eventually self-destruction. These are natural laws. A virus that only takes from the host body it lives in, eventually dies with it. There are many examples of this system everywhere we look in nature.
Even people that live in hardship by environment or external factors they can't control are protected by this system. Didnt Moses live as a slave? Did God forsake him? If we live righteous and submit to God (and thus respect the laws this universe imposes) we transcend our environment and should not fear a terrible fate. There are many verses in Quran to be found illustrating this (eg Surah 1.
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I strongly disagree with the karmic law interpretation. As shown in above post, it does not add up until some white rabbit like reincarnation gets pulled out of the magicians hat to make the whole idea righteous and fair. Karma and reincarnation are not Islamic ideas. They are exotic ideas which I reject.
The whole confusion starts with the question in my opinion. If you consider hardships experienced in life as punishments and enjoyable moments as rewards, we will never understand how this reality is designed and what purpose it serves. This is a childlike attitude towards life in general.
Reality about life is more complex than a reward/punishment system. This whole universe is a system that imposes certain laws by design. Anything in this universe - whether that's a plant, a human being, an animal or a celestial body - that does not give back what it receives is on the path to self-destruction. Modern societies and great civilisations of the past are characterized by greed and immorality, it's no coincidence that greed leads to decadence and eventually self-destruction. These are natural laws. A virus that only takes from the host body it lives in, eventually dies with it. There are many examples of this system everywhere we look in nature.
Even people that live in hardship by environment or external factors they can't control are protected by this system. Didnt Moses live as a slave? Did God forsake him? If we live righteous and submit to God (and thus respect the laws this universe imposes) we transcend our environment and should not fear a terrible fate. There are many verses in Quran to be found illustrating this (eg Surah 1.
Salaam,
I also disagree with karmic philosophy as it is clearly rejected by Quran. I have highlighted your verse because, if you read my post carefully, you will see that I am talking about exactly the same law imposed by the universe. I have called it the law of action and reaction and it aplies to everything and derives from physics perfectly designed by God rather than from some kind of 'karma'
Now regarding the question number 3.
An example
What about innocent greek girl being raped and enslaved by the invading Persians?
What about innocent persian girl being raped and enslaved by the invading Arabs?
What about innocent arab girl being raped and enslaved by the invading Mongols?
What mistakes did they do to suffer such horrible fate?This is indeed a tricky question.
The eastern tradition solved this by 'soul reincarnation'.According to them, it could be the soul of "innocent arab girl" was a "a rapist and enslaving Arab solider" in her past life.
And the soul of "innocent persian girl" was a "a rapist and enslaving Persian solider" in her past life.
And so on...Regardless of whether it's true or not, the belief of 'soul reincarnation' does ignite an empathy.
It makes people think twice before doing some atrocities.
Because, in the next life they could be living as the victim of such atrocities.
What goes around shall comes around.Salam / Peace
thank you Jafar for your post and trying to answer the tricky question. According to my understanding of Quran, reincarnation is a myth created by the people. To me, this phylosophy is quite unfair towards the poorest and more vulnerable beacuse, if you think that the innocent girl was raped because in her 'previous life' she was the 'rapist' then such thinking, to me, doesn't really bring much compassion to the poor person. You could just end up thinking 'well, it was her fault in the first place, she deserved it apparently for her previous life so let her suffer'. Although for some, this theory ignites empathy, to me it is quite cruel and doesn't really make society thinking how to alleviate poverty and suffering, but leaves vulnerable to their own damned faith. interestingly, india, where the 'karmic' believes are so ingrained, doesn't seem to me the most compassionate society to live in with all their cast and 'outcast' systems etc.
To my understanding, the sufferings of innocent holds more importance in the divine design (Allah knows best) and there are my few thoughts on that
- Suffering and loss of child as a huge implication for the family. Such implication might be testing the beliefs of parents, making them understand something really important. Sometimes somebody's tragedy or death can really help other family members to become better, stronger and make change in the world
- Suffering of vulnerable is the consequential effect of the wickedness of the society/rulers. If for argument sake, rulers and religious scholars of a given state brainwashed society into sectarianism, hatred amongst one another and the society sheepishly followed such rulers, then it is the collective fault of ALL the people not just those from the opposing factions. In such circumstances, people loose compassion and humility and are just hungry for blood, this is why so many innocent people are dying.
Recently, while still pondering on this question I discovered really interesting verses in Quran Sura 34 (Saba) verses 31-33, have a look
'And those who disbelieve say, "We will never believe in this Qur'an nor in that before it." But if you could see when the wrongdoers are made to stand before their Lord, refuting each other's words... Those who were oppressed will say to those who were arrogant, "If not for you, we would have been believers."
Those who were arrogant will say to those who were oppressed, "Did we avert you from guidance after it had come to you? Rather, you were criminals."
Those who were oppressed will say to those who were arrogant, "Rather, conspiracy of night and day when you were ordering us to disbelieve in Allah and attribute to Him equals."
But they will confide regret when they see the punishment; and We will put shackles on the necks of those who disbelieved. Will they be recompensed except for what they used to do?.As you see, in this verse oppression is treated as God's punishment on disbelievers, and oppressors and oppressed both blame each other for their state, without realising that all of them wronged themselves and God in some way...Notice that here God doesn't accept excuses of oppressed, based on their ignorance or being brainwashed by rulers...they will be held accountable for their actions!
- Day of judgement is the final day of Justice and Recompense, and all those who were wronged unjustly on the earth, will get their full reward. So if you look at it, those who were innocent/righteous and were treated really injustly, they have really great probability of being admitted or getting 'priority seats' to the Jennat, whereas with people who seemed that had much better and comfier life, it is not that obvious and admission will based on God's mercy?..... Allah knows best
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elektro
y...e...s....
read the quran your just a bit impatient whose important enough to get an immediate response from their creator let alone an immediate wrath or punishment?
if your kids are bad you kinda just stop caring about them, they suffer that rejection.
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As per the quran... whatever happens in this life is just like a faint dream... so the issue at hand is not whether or not things that happen to us are fair or not, but how we cope with them and have Sabr and how it affects our relation to God.
In every punishment there is a test and a blessing. This is the mercy of God. We often lose the perspective and become arrogant and declare things unfair or unjust. Yes, perhaps people are unfair and unjust in the way they treat us, but as far as our own life is concerned, we should only be bothered with purifying ourselves and straightening our minds. It is detrimental to blame and judge others. There is always too much focus on others.
Being subject to horror doesn't mean we have lost something in the bigger perspective. Some people gain something, while others fall down into a pit of bitterness and misery. This world is mere play, a temporary and fleeting dream. Even atheists could agree that this life is very short and soon over, leaving nothing behind.
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We are punished/tested/blessed for our sins. This is how the system works. If you dip your finger in boiling water you'll injure it... that's how the system works.
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Doing good deeds purify us. We benefit from that through the system put in place.
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There is no need to try to tell the difference between a punishment and a test
One reason it is unnecessary to tell the difference between punishments and tests is the very purpose of doing so. Why do we want to be able to tell the difference in he first place? Is it because we want to be able to tell other people that they are punished? Religious people are already doing that, without knowing a sh*t what's actually going on. We should never judge what happens to someone else. Perhaps we want to be able to tell in our own lives when a punishment happens and when a test happens, to be able to respond properly and navigate more efficiently through life. But this thinking is childish... and it's like asking too many questions, wanting to hold the hands of God in order to avoid personal responsibility and action. We should stop splitting hair and start focusing on important things, like how to grow and purify ourselves. Intellectual philosophies is just a hobby of the mind and it won't bring about change in our lives.
Another reason is that in a punishment there is a test and a blessing. How we are affected by it depends on us and how we receive it and decide to go ahead. In this way, a test can be put on us as a punishment which in turn becomes a tremendous blessing for us as we realize something from it. God and God's system is toooo grand and marvelous for us to sit and sort events into punishments, tests and blessings. Everything can be anything. The event itself that comes to us, it's nature and timing, may be dictated by our actions as per that we reap what we sow, but it's quality will be decided once we react or adjust to it.
Peace all
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As per the quran... whatever happens in this life is just like a faint dream... so the issue at hand is not whether or not things that happen to us are fair or not, but how we cope with them and have Sabr and how it affects our relation to God.
In every punishment there is a test and a blessing. This is the mercy of God. We often lose the perspective and become arrogant and declare things unfair or unjust. Yes, perhaps people are unfair and unjust in the way they treat us, but as far as our own life is concerned, we should only be bothered with purifying ourselves and straightening our minds. It is detrimental to blame and judge others. There is always too much focus on others.
Being subject to horror doesn't mean we have lost something in the bigger perspective. Some people gain something, while others fall down into a pit of bitterness and misery. This world is mere play, a temporary and fleeting dream. Even atheists could agree that this life is very short and soon over, leaving nothing behind.
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We are punished/tested/blessed for our sins. This is how the system works. If you dip your finger in boiling water you'll injure it... that's how the system works.
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Doing good deeds purify us. We benefit from that through the system put in place.
-
There is no need to try to tell the difference between a punishment and a test
One reason it is unnecessary to tell the difference between punishments and tests is the very purpose of doing so. Why do we want to be able to tell the difference in he first place? Is it because we want to be able to tell other people that they are punished? Religious people are already doing that, without knowing a sh*t what's actually going on. We should never judge what happens to someone else. Perhaps we want to be able to tell in our own lives when a punishment happens and when a test happens, to be able to respond properly and navigate more efficiently through life. But this thinking is childish... and it's like asking too many questions, wanting to hold the hands of God in order to avoid personal responsibility and action. We should stop splitting hair and start focusing on important things, like how to grow and purify ourselves. Intellectual philosophies is just a hobby of the mind and it won't bring about change in our lives.
Another reason is that in a punishment there is a test and a blessing. How we are affected by it depends on us and how we receive it and decide to go ahead. In this way, a test can be put on us as a punishment which in turn becomes a tremendous blessing for us as we realize something from it. God and God's system is toooo grand and marvelous for us to sit and sort events into punishments, tests and blessings. Everything can be anything. The event itself that comes to us, it's nature and timing, may be dictated by our actions as per that we reap what we sow, but it's quality will be decided once we react or adjust to it.
Peace all
)That is a thoughtful post and very good advice.
I will add some more. God owes us nothing, and we owe Him everything. We are His and he is not ours. So our destiny is His creation just as we are His creation.
There is a saying in Spanish, surely also in other languages in the sin goes the penance. It is true. A sin is not a sin by a crapricious classification of some overbearing Lord, but because it negates our sel-purpose, our final purpose, even while being part of our destiny. In fact when Zulf says that there is no need to distinguish between sin and test, may be sin is also a test. Everything is a test. And sins can be constructive if we do construct from them. But the sin in itself encloses the penance, it is a teaching tool to make us learn what comes from what. It is a little brick in the construction of our private hell. If we are full of ourselves, if we never let oursleves be hurt by other people's suffering, if we do not open ourselves, we will experience being imprisonned in ourselves, consuming ourselves. Even if outwards we seem to get everything we want and need, in fact we may get that, but we won't get anything more.
We may think of Ayub. Was Ayub so evil as to merit the suffering the befell him? When we compare it with whom? Yes there evil people who have every convenience and get most of the time what they want. Compared to those Ayub would be a poor devil. But we are who we are and we cannot change that. We have our tests-sin and that is our way back to Him. We have to do with that. A sin may not be doing something evil, it may simply be not doing something that would purify us, like a missed opportunity... Should we feel guilty?
The guilt feeling can be very distructive. It feeling, it has been used, it is being used, so much to manipulate people... May be we should not insist on it so much but rather insist on the purifying aspect, as Zulf has so wisely done. Everything in existence purifies itself and God in turn purifies it. We should think of that, wish for that, long for that.
Salaam
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