Sectarian Tendencies and 3:200
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The Sunni brother KGB asks us not to unite our forces. I remember a poetic hadith, which was rejected by SOME hadith scholars to be a daif (weak) one Shawiruhunna wa khalifuhunna, that is, consult women and do the opposite. I wonder, whether I should replace the word woman with Sunni and follow the advise of this hadith D
The joke aside, I am surprised to hear such an interrogatory, objection, and negative reaction to the decision of two people who have devoted their lives to promote monotheistic paradigm and righteous activities, to unify their efforts. Those who know me personally, including my enemies, know how much I gave up from worldly things, fame, family, friendship, future career, wealth to defend my dedication of my religion to God alone. Many of my former comrades and followers are now in high positions mayors, governors, ministers and even the current prime minister of Turkey. I never regretted my decision to reject the Sunni sect regardless of its consequence. Thank God, I am now showered with blessings in another country.
You might consider this a bragging, but it is really nothing compared to many who sacrifice their lives for their faith or political causes. Layth and many of you are tested with similar choices. So, we come long way to the Quran and with some differences. This is normal.
If anyone wishes that the followers of the Quran alone should look like cookies produced by a cookie cutter or should look like the clones of dolly sheep, I think they are either Sunni agents of KGB or brainwashed by the doctrine of a cult. There will always be some differences in our understanding of certain verses or issues, since each of us have different personal experiences, different ages, educational levels, and different amount of time invested in studying God's laws in the nature and the scripture. Though many of us are trying our best to listen and hear the clearly broadcasted message of the Quran, because of the location, antenna size, battery power, tuning, ? of our receiver we have differences in reception. The only way to reduce differences is to friendly share and compare our reception and experiences.
But, when I look at similarities and common faith and practice, I cannot understand how some people are trying to prevent such a unified action.
As I said, I have nothing to hide and I will never compromise just for the sake of unity or appeasing someone. I believe that Layth and many other sisters and brothers will have the same conviction and integrity. But, though I will keep my faith, my idiosyncratic or personal understanding, I will force myself to tolerate the different understanding of those who have made great effort to eliminate the authority of mushrik teachings and sectarian jurisprudence.
Furthermore, I believe that many of our disagreements are based on our lack of opportunity to discuss the issues that we deem important face-to-face. I know from my personal experience that the dynamics, immediacy, efficiency and dialectic of face-to-face discussion produce a much deeper understanding and quality debate... So, we should give a try to come together with good faith and open our ears and hearts to each other, so that we may learn from each other and we may reduce our differences in few issues that keep us further from each other.
I congratulate the courage of Layth and many other brothers and sisters to offer a unified effort in the course of learning, living and promoting God's message.
"O you who believe, be patient and call for patience, and bond together and revere God that you may succeed." 3200
Peace,
Edip -
Peace be upon you Edip,
The Sunni brother KGB asks us not to unite our forces.
So has the non sunni brother Idolfree1 and several others.
I remember a poetic hadith, which was rejected by SOME hadith scholars to be a daif (weak) one Shawiruhunna wa khalifuhunna, that is, consult women and do the opposite. I wonder, whether I should replace the word woman with Sunni and follow the advise of this hadith
I'll leave that for KGB to answer.
The joke aside, I am surprised to hear such an interrogatory, objection, and negative reaction to the decision of two people who have devoted their lives to promote monotheistic paradigm and righteous activities, to unify their efforts.
No, please do not DEFINE the opposition as being against two people, the opposition is ALLYING with the philosophy of "thier count" (19). Your website is called 19.org. WHat does that say about your priorities in promoting the God's system? We have question about that. We are to promote ONENESS, not "nineteenness".
Those who know me personally, including my enemies, know how much I gave up from worldly things, fame, family, friendship, future career, wealth to defend my dedication of my religion to God alone. Many of my former comrades and followers are now in high positions mayors, governors, ministers and even the current prime minister of Turkey. I never regretted my decision to reject the Sunni sect regardless of its consequence. Thank God, I am now showered with blessings in another country.
You might consider this a bragging, but it is really nothing compared to many who sacrifice their lives for their faith or political causes. Layth and many of you are tested with similar choices. So, we come long way to the Quran and with some differences. This is normal.
Yes, we are all tested, but there are many who gave up things for all kinds of ideas, this does not mean that we are all on the same page.
If anyone wishes that the followers of the Quran alone should look like cookies produced by a cookie cutter or should look like the clones of dolly sheep, I think they are either Sunni agents of KGB or brainwashed by the doctrine of a cult.
That is your opinion not based on any facts. Just because people have concerns about joining with a SECT who promotes 19 to the point of naming the website 19.org, it does not follow that we wish to see the followers of the God Alone to be disunited, but we do not want to ALLY with those who remove verses from the reading(quran). We are not even to ally with our parents and siblings who choose such a path (923)
There will always be some differences in our understanding of certain verses or issues, since each of us have different personal experiences, different ages, educational levels, and different amount of time invested in studying God's laws in the nature and the scripture. Though many of us are trying our best to listen and hear the clearly broadcasted message of the Quran, because of the location, antenna size, battery power, tuning, of our receiver we have differences in reception. The only way to reduce differences is to friendly share and compare our reception and experiences.
I have yet to see a disagreement here at free minds that resulted in the removal of any verses form this reading(quran). That is a HUGE disagreement. I mean, if that is the case, why not unite with those who disagree and call themselves christaians and jews? Where does the DIFFERENCE start and stop?
But, when I look at similarities and common faith and practice, I cannot understand how some people are trying to prevent such a unified action.
Please list some of the similarities. I don't do your 3 salaat ritual, I do not face any place called Mecca, I do not engage in any pilgrimmage to Mecca, etc, I do not count 19's, etc.
That which we agree on we are already united in, how will joining of two websites make us agree any more on the issues we do agree on?
As I said, I have nothing to hide and I will never compromise just for the sake of unity or appeasing someone.
I did not think you would compromise, so what position will "19" have in this "union"?
I believe that Layth and many other sisters and brothers will have the same conviction and integrity. But, though I will keep my faith, my idiosyncratic or personal understanding, I will force myself to tolerate the different understanding of those who have made great effort to eliminate the authority of mushrik teachings and sectarian jurisprudence.
Furthermore, I believe that many of our disagreements are based on our lack of opportunity to discuss the issues that we deem important face-to-face. I know from my personal experience that the dynamics, immediacy, efficiency and dialectic of face-to-face discussion produce a much deeper understanding and quality debate...
I disagree, the online debate is just as good, if not better, because it gives the other time to think and respond inteligently, while in a face to face debate, those who are not used to doing this may get a sense of fear and inhibit thier thought process. On line debate allows all viewers to go back and catch any contradictions at any time.
So, we should give a try to come together with good faith and open our ears and hearts to each other, so that we may learn from each other and we may reduce our differences in few issues that keep us further from each other.
But you told me in another thread that you had no time for such things, that you were too busy to discuss issues that could reduce differences. So how will this be done?
I congratulate the courage of Layth and many other brothers and sisters to offer a unified effort in the course of learning, living and promoting God's message.
"O you who believe, be patient and call for patience, and bond together and revere God that you may succeed." 3200
And I also congratulate Layth for all of his efforts over the years and I congratulate all those who see the ERROR in this union and stand up to question it.
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Dear Friend Edip Yuksel,
I was honest that my opposition is for the sake of Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) nothing against you or Layth personally.
You labeled me Sunni without even reading that I never mentioned any hadith and written against the so called Imams who had corrupted the deen by introducing Talmudic religious doctrines.
I believe that Rashad Al Khalifah formula 19 is interesting to read but it is not from God or error free. I believe that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the last prophet and Qur'an the final words of God than you are free to write anything you like against me or my belief. I will respond according to my limited knowledge of Qur'an.
Qur'an is the final message of Allah (SWT) and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is his last prophet.
Edip, I have been insulted to the extent of people calling my forefather all sort of obscenities and Alhamdulillah never change my faith just to please some people. You have to be more harsh maybe next time when you ridicule me and my beliefs.
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I aplogize to KGB if he is offend from my considering him as a Sunni. I inferred that from his writiing (SAW) after Muhammad's name.
As for Idolfree
I disagree, the online debate is just as good, if not better, because it gives the other time to think and respond inteligently, while in a face to face debate, those who are not used to doing this may get a sense of fear and inhibit thier thought process. On line debate allows all viewers to go back and catch any contradictions at any time.
My experience has shown the otherwise. When people hide themselves behind screens, I have witnessed that they find more time to cover up the truth in their opponents argument and cover the signs of dishonesty in their faces. Without face to face arguments and mutual interrogation and investigation, many expositions of truth or impeachment of crimes would not have actualized.
As for your problem with the number 19, live with it.
Peace,
Edip -
Edip Yuksel its okay you did not offend me at all people have insulted me to the limits for tearing down the concepts imported from Torah, Gospel, Zoroastrian proving them wrong from Qur'an. After those insults I don't consider Sunnis and Shias as my enemies or do not pass judgement to be out of fold of Islam, God is the better judge for their actions and intentions.
Regarding (SAW) it is to show my regards to the Prophet I follow and according to Allah (SWT) was Ramat lil Alameen (Mercy to all worlds) deserve my highest respect.
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Peace,
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=37415#37415
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Salaamun alaikum,
We are told to consider those who commit themselves and produce growth (yuqimusalaat wa yu'tuzakaat) as our brothers in ad-deen (9/11). However, I'm not so sure in case of the 19ers as I consider them to be 'kazibeen' or rejectors/deniers of 2 verses of Allah's system. Does this negate the possibility of them being 'brothers in ad-deen' ? I'm not sure.
It is possible that 9/11 only refers to the 'basics' as mentioned in 2/83-85 and 6/151-153. Again, I am unsure.
thanks and peace.
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Layth never says that.
Well, I am not Layth.
Second, I am not in competition with Layth.
Third, you might be more biased in favor of Layth, since you know him better than you know me.
Forth, perhaps Layth and many of you are better than me in this regard.
Fifth, you may understand my words in several different ways ranging from meanest to a lousy way of telling the person "it is up to you learn and enlighten yourself." or "unfortunately, now I do not have time to discuss this issue with you," or "I wish you had not rejected my invitation to arrange a face to face meeting to discuss this issue."
Sixth, it is up to that brother or sister to live or die with 19 or the problem with 19 ) I prefer to live with both!
Peace,
Edip -
DO YOU BELIEVE GOD OR NOT?
God says that Quran is COMPLETE, PERFECT, & FULLY DETAILED, and that you shall not seek any other source
"We did not leave anything out of this book, then all will be gathered before their Lord (for judgment). Those who do not believe our verses are deaf and dumb; in total darkness. God sends astray whomever He wills, and directs whomever He wills in the right path." (63839)
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? (6114)
"The word of your Lord is COMPLETE in truth & justice." (6115)This means that the Qur'an which reached us is complete, perfect, & fully detailed according to the words of this false prophet Rashad Al Khalifah and I do agree with him hundred percent.
IMPORTANT CRITERION OF DIVINE REVELATION
Some people claim that the "Hadith & Sunna" are divine revelations. Obviously, they are not aware that the criterion of divine revelation is PERFECT PRESERVATION. Since the socalled hadith & sunna of the Prophet have been vastly corrupted, they can never meet the criterion of divine revelation. It is an acknowledged fact that the vast majority of Hadiths are false fabrications.
"We have sent down the revelation, and we will surely preserve it." (159)
"Indeed, this is an honorable scripture. Falsehood could never enter it in the past, present, or future; a revelation from the most wise, the most praised." (414142)
The blasphemy is evident when they claim that Hadith and Sunna are divine revelations. Do they not realize that God Almighty is capable of preserving His revelations?Now again I do have to agree with false claimant of prophethood that criterion of divine revelation is Perfect Preservation. The verses quoted by this hypocrite I have to agree with him including that God Almighty is capable of preserving His revelations. So far no disagreements even with a false prophet.
Hadith & Sunna advocates claim that Hadith & Sunna are needed to explain Quran. However, Quran teaches that God is the teacher of Quran; that God will put Quran into the hearts of believers regardless of their mother tongue; and that Muhammad will not explain Quran. Documents are shown below
"God is the teacher of Quran." (5512)I again agree with Rashad Al Khalifah the false prophet regarding Hadith and Sunna with the verse that it is God will teach us the Qur'an who ever approach His message.
Rashad Al Khalifah should have accepted the fact that there is something wrong with his formula 19 with his own understanding of Qur'an which I agree with him instead he chose the path of arrogance and self pride to prove his formula 19 is a divine revelation and deleted the two verses of Qur'an labeling them false. When Qur'an is complete, perfect, and God Almighty is capable of preserving his message suddenly become faulty. Still Qur'an is same perfect, complete and preserved two verses become false because Allah (SWT) proved him to be on the wrong track. Allah (SWT) knows the intention of Rashad Al Khalifah that he will claim prophethood based on formula 19 and it was the very well preserved Qur'an which failed him miserably because Allah (SWT) sure will guard His message till the day of judgement as promised.
19ers wants people should accept this faulty formula and their false hypocrite prophet Rashad Al Khalifah as the divine revelation without questioning his intentions. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was not free of human errors than how come Rashad Al Khalifah is all human error free and is not capable of mistakes and errors.
Just my opinion based on one article and I am sure that if look into details anyone can find hundreds of errors.
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Dear KGB,
Please do not take this personally, because it is not personal at all. But I don't believe that you are an honest person. I have read posts after posts made by you in which you attack Rashad Khalifa and Edip. To have disagreement with others who have interpretations/views different from your own is certainly expected, but to attack others and call them names is very tasteless at best.
The reason that I say that you are being dishonest is because you insist on calling Rashad Khalifa a false prophet, even though anyone who knows anything about him know that he has always taught that there is a difference between Prophet (Nabiyy) and Messenger (Rasool). Whether or not you agree or disagree with this understanding is another matter. What is important is the Clear Fact Dr. Khalifa has Never, not even once, claimed to be a Prophet!!
He claimed that Muhammad/Ahmad was the last and final prophet, but that there will always be messengers to warn the people, to remind them of GOD's scripture and message, and to bring glad tidings/good news. For you to constantly accuse him of claiming prophethood when you know full well that he never made that claim constitutes dishonesty on your part.
If you have not done so already, I hope you click on http//www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/conflict.htm and read the difference between obeying a dead messenger and obeying one who is among you.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Damon why do you believe its attack on Edip when I did not mention his name in entire post. The difference of Prophet & Messenger is always twisted and spun by all false claimant prophets.
This is again not against you or anybody including Edip. {edited} I did not realize the statements related to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) will offend many on this forum.
Damon first it was Edip who label me Sunni and now you calling me dishonest person because I refuse to accept your 19 formula and refuse to accept Rashad Al Khalifah as Messenger (just not to offend you).
I don't understand now when Messenger Rahad Al Khalifah is dead how you are following the living Messenger or do you have any other living messanger still living to follow. Please explain so I can answer you in detail.
All the Prophets were Messenger and All the Messengers were Prophets. This is the truth and fact.
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This is simply my efforts for the pleasure of Allah (SWT) and the last and final Prophet & Messenger Muhammad (SAW).
I sure will read your atricle.
Peace,
Where do you learn that you should be putting effort into pleasing GODs messenger? How is he going to find out what you have been doing?
5109 The day God will gather the messengers and He will say "What was the response you received?"; they said "We have no knowledge, you are the Knower of all the unseen."
864 O prophet, God is sufficient for you, and whoever followed you from the believers.
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Thanks KGB wink
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peace be upon you KGB,
the messenger is anybody who delivers the message (to serve The God alone, do good deeds, and avoid evil) these are not some "chosen ones" that The God picks out of a hat but it is anybody who delivers the truth, these have truly recieved inspiration, a messenger does not=someone who talks to a strange light being with wings, no where does it say "muhammadun" is the "last messenger" but it does say he is the "seal of the prophets" and just like the seal on the hearts of the concealers/rejectors (27) can be broken if they end up following the right path likewise can the seal of the prophets
btw
Damon first it was Edip who label me Sunni and now you calling me dishonest person because I refuse to accept your 19 formula and refuse to accept Rashad Al Khalifah as Messenger (just not to offend you).
from what I've seen Damon doesn't believe or isnt obsessed with it if he does believe in the "19 formula", no where has he said in this thread that he has
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Peace Idris
I respectfully disagree with all these Prophet and Messenger spin always brought up by the false Messenger. I believe that Seal of Prophet has already discussed somewhere very clearly and it would be repetition to post it again. Please find and read my views on "Seal of Prophets" in the forum.
Thanks
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Salaam All,
I do believe that messengers come to every community (there is a verse confirming this in quran and as usual I don't have the references wink ...) which means that there was til now no last messenger. Also, the seal of prophets does not mean the last prophet -God does not run out of words...
Now concerning 19.... I'll be always thankful to Rashad Khalifa because the mathematical composition of quran is what brought me to islam in the first place. But as said Layth, this is just one miracle between so many others. Nowadays, even if I found out for sure that the code was just bogus, I'd still be (or try to be) a muslim...
For the last 20 years I've been struggling with many verses in quran and discovering free-minds and it's discussion have helped me a lot.
I do think like idolfree when he states that, even if there is a mathematical composition, we should focus on the message.We will not able to show a unified "muslim" front because we don't have an agreement on so many issues hajj, salat, 19 aso...but this is not really an issue as it shows that there is a lot of free space in the deen. I wouldn't want to live without it! If the God wished us to have just one point of view on those issues he sure is able to be clearer.
The real issue is more about having different points of view and still live together and respect each other - the absolute contrary of sectarians...Question is Would we be able ("free-minders" and "19ers" confounded) to show this open spirit if we were to unite?
Elke
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Peace all,
Is tolerating different views no longer a requirement of being Muslim?
Why can't Edip be allowed to reject 2 verses if he has found based on his research (right or wrong) that they are not part of the Scripture?
Does that disqualify him in some way from being a Muslim?
In the same token, I reject Mekka as being the place of pilgrimage based on my own research (right or wrong) and have stated openly that Jerusalem is Bakka...
Does that disqualify me in some way from being a Muslim?
Please think this matter over and share your views on the thread "What Constitutes a Musilm?"
Intolerance is not what we stand for...
