Clarification on certain arguments on Quranist beliefs (Hadith rejectors)
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Hey guys
Just joined...
It's surprising to see so many people holding similar beliefs I've had for a while. I feel like I've come to the right place to get some guidance on this whole idea of following the Holy Quran for guidance only.
My story's similar to most of yours probably.
Discovered Islam. Converted to Islam. Found Peace. Gained some knowledge. Learned that you can't be a proper Muslim until you follow the Hadith. So you learn the hadith. You get confused. The confusion grows into doubt. The doubt grows into straight up hate for Islam.
This hate for Islam didn't seize until I came to learn about "Quranists". It just made sense.
The arguments against hadiths seemed so much superior from the Quranists side. I've never felt so clear about spirituality until now.There's just some things that hold me back.
http//www.islamic-life.com/forums/modernists-progressive-thought/hadith-rejectors-quranists-refuted-5685
I've been researching on this topic a lot. I don't want to accept regurgitated dogma, yet I want to get a proper evaluation of these arguments.
Unfortunately, I'm not in the position to clarify what's right and wrong in Islam yet, I'm just too unfamiliar.
I'd greatly appreciate the community here if they could read these counter arguments and provide their feedback...
I'm sorry to put a burden on you guys, it's just that I want to receive some proper answers... I'd really appreciate it if someone could check these arguments and provide the proper answers not just for me, but for anyone here who wants to know exactly what beliefs they're adopting and for what reason.
It's a long thread, so I apologize in advance for the burden...
Thank you guys for all your help and all the great information you have contributed here.
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Peace,
Welcome to the forum.
The Hadith rejecter will respond back by saying that Allah promised to preserve the Qur'an (Surah 159) but not the hadith. However, this is circular reasoning. The Hadith rejecter is basically saying "The only evidence that the Qur'an is preserved is that the Qur'an says so." No objective person will take such an answer seriously.
No one will take the argument that the hadith is preserved just because someone says so. And hadith contains a lot of inconsistency and completely stupid content.
If we are expected to believe that ALL the Muslims could have corrupted Islam by introducing the Hadith then to maintain consistency we must also conclude that it was very likely for them to have corrupted the Qur'an as well
They have "corrupted" the "Qur'an" too. Its interpretation is way off the charts in many ways, such as cutting the hand of thieves and beating your wife etc.
- How do you know how to pray using the Quran alone?
How do you mean 'how to pray'. Just honor God and say your words. Anyway, the word they believe to mean 'prayer' (salah) may not even indicate prayer.
Fourthly, the Quran condemns the method of prayer that was present in Mecca before Allah revealed the method of prayer to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)
I have never seen any passage condemning how people "prayed" in the past.\
Their prayer at the House (of God) is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands (Its only answer can be), "Taste ye the penalty because ye blasphemed."
You need to know whom is "their".
God is telling the people to make remembrance (dhikr) of Him the way He taught them which they did not know before. Salat (Prayer) is a form of remembrance
This is an inaccurate translation and it is God that has taught them anyhow.
Don't show me verses where the Qur'an says that we should bow down and prostrate.
According to me that is an erroneous translation/interpretation of the words used for bowing down and prostrating to begin with. The moves of bowing or prostrating are no in the recitation.
You can also challenge the Quranites to show where the Qur'an says how many raka's we must pray for each prayer.
You can challenge them back and show where it says we should do "rakah at all. What is a rakah? And how will it help me get closer to God?
- How do you know how much Zakah to pay using the Quran alone?
The excess the recitation says you should give in charity. Although the word zakah means purification however and does not refer to charity (only).
The Quran says that men can beat their wives
No. It does not say that men can beat their wives AT ALL. It tells them to put them forth, highlight them, probably meaning to show to others their poor behavior.
It says in the Quran to shorten the prayer when you travel.
Depends on how you interpret the word salah.
The Qur'an says to cut the hand of the thief
No. It does not talk about any cutting being done AT ALL. It talks about imprisoning or immobilizing the thief.
The prophecies of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) came true from the hadith
Who cares? Things like it could be merely coincidences and just wishfully connecting some conjecture to real-life events.
The Qur'an says that we must obey Allah and the Messenger
We would have obeyed the messenger while he was still alive, and that was to follow what God decreed. And what God decreed is fully clear within the recitation. Now we can indirectly obey the messenger by heeding the decree and judgment that came down with him.
It says in the Qu'ran (Surah 3321) that we have the Messenger as a good example to follow. How would we know his example without the traditions to turn to?
Yes. What could be a good example. Well his ultimate devotion to God and good character that is very apparent from reading only the recitation. In fact a poor example of Muhammad emerges when a person begins to read "hadith".
We have different forms of reciting the Qur'an, which means that certain letters are taken away from the word or pronounced differently
How does it matter? The recitation is as corrupted as it can be in terms of interpretation already so how can it affect anything?
In Surah 2221, God forbids us to marry polytheist women. Yet in Surah 55, God says that we can marry the believing women and the chaste women from the People of the Book. This is a clear differentiation between believing women and People of the Book. You can't have a believing person today from the People of the Book who is not a Muslim
You can have a believing person of any faith if that one has faith in God alone.
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof" What exactly is this part that "appears thereof"
It is up to the discretion of the individual women to decide how modest she wants to be. The recitation does not say much which is a sign that it is not that important or it would say cover your head and hair.
If the Quran is so easy to understand on our own, then why did Allah have some Muslims staying behind in Madinah in order to become very well versed in religion, while the others go out to the battlefield so that they can then come back to be taught
This is probably a misrepresentation of the passage recited. If Muhammad was alive he could as well teach them what the recitation said.
Allah says in the Qur'an (Surah 7519) that the Qur'an will be recited. But then in the verse right after (verse 20) it is also said that the Qur'an will be explained. If the Qur'an is self-explanatory then the only thing that needs to be done is reciting it out. However, in verse 19 the function of reciting is done and then in the verse right after, the function of explaining is done. Clearly these are two different tasks, which mean that reading the Qur'an alone would not give you the full explanation required. It has to be explained through some other source. What is that other source?
Tired of this gibberish already. Sorry yuck
God bless you
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Man of Faith, thank you so much for taking the time to answer these questions I had I really appreciate it bud...
Thanks for the welcome everyone.
I've been on this forum for a few days now (like 5-6 hours straight) just reading and absorbing all the arguments and debates.
Basically this means that the Islam that's common today is a completely different religion from what Quranists believe, yet the "Quranist" point of view makes so much more sense...
Thanks again for the help guys
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Peace friend,
The common islam is feeling like a very unfriendly compulsory religion with a tyrant god that reminds me more of a bearded old grumpy man with a very unstable mood. No wonder why some people are turned away from God. And all depends on grave (intentional?) misinterpretations of many words giving them harsher meanings than they should have or changing them completely to something else or the words are interpreted losing their idiomatic meaning as a phrase.
My theory is that the recitation laid abandoned for many years somewhere and then later people tried to understand it in ignorance and tried to figure out what its passages meant, and often failed miserably and likely interconnected it with conjectural hearsay and by their often own weird traditions. That is how it feels and would be a probable explanation, but otherwise it is just crazy that they managed to twist around the meanings as much.
There is not many books with so much mysticism, dogma and controversy around as the recitation (Quran).
And they just follow in the footsteps of those before them because the Jews have an alleged 603 religious laws.
God bless you
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Peace,
Welcome Brother,
AQ;0549 - And judge, , between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away ? then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.
FYI, There were 10 hadith compiler who altogether collected 4 million hadiths. Out of these 4 million hadiths, these compilers, approved only 1% or so, of what they had compiled and claimed the balance as fabricated. Can you see the margin of error.
These so called Muslims very closely follow the Jewish Talmud, consisting of Mishnah and Gemara which equivalent to the Hadith and Sunna, 1400 years ago. What these so called Muslims had propagated is of Jewish in origin!
AQ;16105 - Indeed what those who believe not in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and these who are the liars.
Peace
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The common islam is feeling like a very unfriendly compulsory religion with a tyrant god that reminds me more of a bearded old grumpy man with a very unstable mood.
Wow... I'm blown away at how accurate you are with what I started believing...! It's like you read my mind Man of Faith!
That's exactly what I started imagining God as, an angry, bearded old man...
After reading around and learning more about the Islam discussed here, it's becoming apparent the traditional beliefs are coruppted way beyond their essence...
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Peace Whatisinthetruth,
Trust me, beneath the surface and exaggerated Arabic words, it is a very peaceful faith. And it is all about doing good and keeping the unity, both with God and the brothers and sisters and try to establish further unity before God's kingdom comes, and to uphold a brief list of commandments that we all know that you shall have no other God than The Master and serve God will all your heart, your soul and your mind and uphold the decree and sound judgment.
God is very loving toward those who do good.
But for those who do bad.. well they have been promised some Hell.
Trust me, the faith following a rightly interpreted "Quran" looks very much like what they call Christianity without the Jesus obsession.
And that Jesus was a passivist is a misconception. Jesus became very active when he noticed that the house of God was not used for the right activities and he was seemingly quite angry. And he verbally attacked the clergy many times.
God bless you
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God-alone Islam, or Quran alone Islam, or Quranism, or whatever you call it... suffers from one weakness, and that is that it is still based on the religion they try to get away from. It becomes like a compromise... of soft version of the traditional Islam. The view of the quran is still influenced by tradition... even when hadith n sunna are thrown out.
There should not even need to be a name for Quranism, or for someone who follows the quran alone. What the quran talks about is so universal and natural that putting labels on the system, and the followers, just creates another sect. Label create division. Labels may DESCRIBE something or someone, but when USED for identification, it creates division.
Ok, cheers and peace
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God-alone Islam, or Quran alone Islam, or Quranism, or whatever you call it... suffers from one weakness, and that is that it is still based on the religion they try to get away from. It becomes like a compromise... of soft version of the traditional Islam. The view of the quran is still influenced by tradition... even when hadith n sunna are thrown out.
There should not even need to be a name for Quranism, or for someone who follows the quran alone. What the quran talks about is so universal and natural that putting labels on the system, and the followers, just creates another sect. Label create division. Labels may DESCRIBE something or someone, but when USED for identification, it creates division.
I don't describe myself as a "Quranist" or "God-alone Muslim". I think of myself as a critical thinking Muslim, and I would heavily argue anyone that tried to place me into a particular Muslim philosophy. When you critically assess each issue, spiritually, or politically, you transcend labels. Labels, when used for philosophy, are meant to describe people who differ decision-making to other people who are the "leaders" of that label. I feel like nobody in here fits into that.
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Peace brother zulf,
This is why it is so much emphasis on being good and about unity in the recitation. Good has been there even before I begun correcting errors so it is not an excuse really. But now we have no rituals except what God prescribed to Moses those years ago so nothing to argue about... except that annoying Ramadan which in fact remains the only thing I am not certain about and which I am going to put to the test next I have decided.
But once again. Our faith circulates around
- Have faith
- Be and do good
Verily that is at the bottom of it your "religion". The decreed list of commandments and restrictions few dispute about. It is mainly the conjecture that people dispute over.
But brother zulf, surely Quran has instead become an idol because man seems unwilling to let go of idols. It is just a recitation recorded in book form for God sake and if you do not uphold its principle of being nice to your neighbor and the stranger then it could as well be thrown into the fire because it is thus redundant.
Even without taking a glance a Christian would now know what is written in the recitation and God even gives example of when people who heard the prophet recite started crying. The problem is we do not cry now because its words are not the same even if it looks the same as a thousand years ago. But surely I nearly cried as a former Christian the other day when I had found out that the rebellious salat turned out to be mere unity! Not just any unity but the unity of God's upcoming kingdom. That was what I wanted to hear in 2009 to have begun to cry when I read the recitation for the first time.
That was the unity that Jesus wanted to invite to. And the unity Muhammad wanted to establish. All messengers were facing people who wanted to kill them for speaking the truth and exposing their lies.
And under all that nonsense due to corruption is words similar to what you would find of invitation of God's kingdom. The opponents are threatened with Hell, and there is no disbelievers but only people with lack of faith.
God bless you
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Peace,
God alone man or woman of faith is the best title for you. Labels cause disunity and I am sure none of the prophets and messengers said a name of their faith. If they said something it was the faith of my father X and the God of X etc.
Heck not even God has a name, I can call God; Allah, Almighty, Merciful, Gracious, Master, Jehova or any other suitable name. It is all attributes of the same Force in the galaxies. God is above everything even titles. We need them to refer to God while God has no need to have a name and all good names are The Master's name. It is no surprise if God sarcastically said "My name is 'I am that I am' or I simply exist given no name as I was not begotten.
We can call ourselves things here but God has not told us to do it. Best is to not assign a group name at all. Devotee to God or similar perhaps?
God bless y
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Peace Man of Faith.
56
O you who believe, when you observe the Salat, you shall wash your faces, wash your arms to the elbows, wipe your heads, and wipe/wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean , you shall bathe. If you are ill, or travelling, or had any digestive excretion , or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the Tayammum by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. God does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.Sorry brother, I am struggling to fit " unity" for "Salat" in this verse?
May be you have mentioned something about it in your posts? Maybe the translation that I have quoted is corrupt?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace,
I have been looking into that verse and it does not have to rule out that practice. Even in other narrations from the Bible for example people wash themselves before going to an assembly.
And it is quite natural that you are clean when you meet people.
The unity intended in the recitation implies that you gather up as a group and stick together. But it does still not mean prayer.
Try to paint the mental image of people keeping unity when you think of the word. It does not mean more than that however. Link/bond/connection has already been suggested by people before. They were not wrong, but it needs to be defined how.
And regarding 443 and 56 I am not satisfied with how people have translated the passages. It is filled with controversy and I have tried to translate it, but it is difficult based on the fact that most words appear only 1,2 or 3 times in the whole narration. All body parts have allegorical meanings as well and any soil is not in the verses at all in the Arabic language used in the recitation. 443 I have translated halfway decently accurate based on comparisons with the use of the words in other instances.
And water is formed from a word that can have multiple meanings . And I ignore diacritical marks whatsoever. I think people who did not know what they did added them. I think someone tried to interpret it later and did not know exactly what the passages said and tried to derive a meaning instead of deeply analyze it first and they used their traditions to get a meaning from it that suited their dogma.
On the other hand with salat as "contact prayer" you make islam very dogmatic and zealous because you force opponents to pray, and in that version also birds pray (?).
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith.
No one can force anyone to do anything. I cannot force them to pray any more than you can can force them to unite.
Whoever wants to pray ,prays and whoever wants to "unite" unites.
My honest opinion ,brother, is you are trying to force an issue where it does not go.
Good luck to you with your new inspiration.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace,
I do not want to force an opinion on anyone, but of course I do my best to convince people if I find out something good and I want people to know the truth. Do you think it renders prayers off the map just because a word did not fit the puzzle?
I suggest that you verify the "opinion" instead of just shrugging it off as nonsense.
Why do you use words like force? I have not tried to force anyone to do something. I am inviting people at most.
Edit Regretted adding sentence.
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith.
I was answering the words you used in reply 15, quote
On the other hand with salat as "contact prayer" you make islam very dogmatic and zealous because you force opponents to pray, and in that version also birds pray (?).
I was saying no one is forced by anybody else?
I have not chosen that word ,you have.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Well, if you buy the package of traditional Islam, then it is obligatory to pray the namaz, even tho nobody can actually force you. You are forced by your own choice, by your own self. This is because salat=namaz is a pillar, and therefore you cannot avoid it... if you wish to follow the traditional recipe. At least that's how I understand how one would be forced to do the namaz prayer.
