Free Will / Free Choice... Is the Creator all knowledgeable?
-
So I've read the article "Free Choice" by Ayman a few times. One a few years ago, once another time and once yesterday. I've been pondering on it as the same question seems to pop up in my mind (well 2).
A few others that I have privately messaged will know my issue but I'd like to hear the viewpoint of others. If the God wills my understanding will click but just for curiosity I'm wondering what people think of this. Really it would be good to read that article to know what I'm talking about. I'd appreciate if ayman also had a say in these questions but I'm not sure if he comes on here anymore...
Anyway, one of the questions was, how does the God somehow make a certain path unavailable to us? I.e. does this not break any laws of it since God made its own rules and said it would not break then...
The MAIN question, is if the creator is ALL knowing, then how comes it does not know which path we will take? If it knows all possible branches/paths and all outcomes, but doesn't know what path we will take, then how is it all knowing? Of course, I'm not saying it isn't.. But like ayman said, Moses was asked by God about what the cane was for? God obviously knows what it is but (guessing here) didn't know what Moses would do with it?
Any help would be appreciated here.
Here is also the link to the article which I reckon is awesome
http//www.free-minds.org/free-choice
Peace peace
-
Peace,
In my understanding it is a misconception and God knows everything that happens around the world and that is meant by all-knowing. If God technically would know all outcomes of this test it becomes redundant, unnecessary. We are here because we have a chance of showing the best of ourselves.
God bless you
-
What happens when we realize that our world and time, is something that is part of our life and our situation specifically? There may be entities, like the malaika, and perhaps even others, that are not subjected to time like we are. And what about Allah, which we cannot grasp and comprehend? Surely Allah is not bound by time, nor by our definitions of 'to know', 'all-knowing' etc. We don't even know what Allah is. By the way, this is where religion goes south. We need to resist the temptation to reduce Allah to fit into our concepts and mental constructs. I believe the dichotomy of all-knowing vs not all knowing, may therefore be invalid, because Allah is not bound by such definitions and concepts. Allah is beyond everything. This is why we are told not to associate ANYTHING will Allah. It's not because of believing in idols only, but rather we are told this so that we won't create images of God... limited images... and therefore live a lie. Allah cannot be grasped. It is more useful to keep reminding oneself what Allah is NOT.
So God is beyond and "outside" time. Therefore there is no problem with knowing something that has not been decided yet. It is just us that cannot grasp this, because our world progresses like on a two dimensional timeline. But we should not give up the concept of free choice, because it would lead to madness and passivity, and people may give their predestination as an excuse for inactivity, which in reality is just another choice. We constantly make choices and need to do so responsibly, carefully and wisely.
Peace ;D
-
Peace,
My evidence is that it would be against reasonable logic to think that we would be here if things were already settled. You have countless of passages talking about making choices etc etc. I do not want to make a book out of your thread.
God bless you
-
Dear shushi1992,
Salam alaykum.
We know that God's knowledge encompasses everything in the universe
659
He holds the keys to the unseen; none knows them but He. HE HAS KNOWLEDGE OF ALL THAT LAND AND SEA CONTAIN. NO LEAF FALLS WITHOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE, NOR IS THERE A SINGLE GRAIN IN THE DARKNESS OF THE EARTH, OR ANYTHING, WET OR DRY, but is recorded in a clear Record.During the conversation in the valley of Tuwa, God askd Moses (pbuh)
2017
What do you have in your right hand, Moses?Then Moses (pbuh) replied
2018
He replied, It is my staff. I lean on it, and with it, I beat down the leaves for my flock; I also have other uses for it.According to 659, do you not think God already knew about Moses' staff and what he used to do with it? Then why did God still ask him about it?
Just because God asked him about his staff does not in anyway hint that God had no knowledge of it, otherwise it would contradict with verse 659. God simply asked him about his staff as He already had a plan which required Moses' (pbuh) staff. He showed Moses (pbuh) His sign (i.e. the staff turning into a snake) which Moses was to later use it as a proof to Phoroah that he was sent by God to take the children of Israel.
Regards.
-
Salaam all,
I believe that you are conflating a "set in stone" understanding of God and a "multiple pathway" understanding of Him. For example, two things are certain now of you...that you were born, and that you will surely die.
Between those two certainties, you can do any number of activities. Allah knows that which you want to do, that which you can do, that which you do in fact do, and the consequent paths that derive therefrom.
Being the all-knowing while not forcing us to make decisions are not mutually exclusive. I think the focus should be shifted from, "Did God know I was going to make x or y decision?" to "Does God know what I did and will I be judged by it accordingly?" To which the answer is yes.
God gave us free will, and when He chooses, we pay for our decisions. In the story of sodom/gamorrah, a whole community was removed. In the great flood of Noah's time, all perished but that which He deemed worthy of being saved. For most of us, we'll see Him on the Day of Judgement.
I'd like to sum this up with an allusion to Feinberg's Theory of Freedom and Rights, which I linked somewhere in here before. A part of that speaks of word freedom being too ambiguous. For there are 2 types of freedom. Freedom from, and freedom to.
As individuals in His kingdom, we are free to choose our path. We are however, not free from paying for the decisions that we make.
peace
PS, this is post #100 for me! Group hug! group
-
What happens when we realize that our world and time, is something that is part of our life and our situation specifically? There may be entities, like the malaika, and perhaps even others, that are not subjected to time like we are. And what about Allah, which we cannot grasp and comprehend? Surely Allah is not bound by time, nor by our definitions of 'to know', 'all-knowing' etc. We don't even know what Allah is. By the way, this is where religion goes south. We need to resist the temptation to reduce Allah to fit into our concepts and mental constructs. I believe the dichotomy of all-knowing vs not all knowing, may therefore be invalid, because Allah is not bound by such definitions and concepts. Allah is beyond everything. This is why we are told not to associate ANYTHING will Allah. It's not because of believing in idols only, but rather we are told this so that we won't create images of God... limited images... and therefore live a lie. Allah cannot be grasped. It is more useful to keep reminding oneself what Allah is NOT.
So God is beyond and "outside" time. Therefore there is no problem with knowing something that has not been decided yet. It is just us that cannot grasp this, because our world progresses like on a two dimensional timeline. But we should not give up the concept of free choice, because it would lead to madness and passivity, and people may give their predestination as an excuse for inactivity, which in reality is just another choice. We constantly make choices and need to do so responsibly, carefully and wisely.
Peace ;D
Peace zulf ),
I get what you mean ). Thing is we try to understand things like the reading for example to get a glimpse of what Allah is like. For example when it says "most merciful, most wise". There's a reason these are said. God tells us to use our logic and reason to figure all of this out. So when it says all knowing, it's essential that we try to figure out what exactly that means no (?
-
Dear shushi1992,
Salam alaykum.
We know that God's knowledge encompasses everything in the universe
659
He holds the keys to the unseen; none knows them but He. HE HAS KNOWLEDGE OF ALL THAT LAND AND SEA CONTAIN. NO LEAF FALLS WITHOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE, NOR IS THERE A SINGLE GRAIN IN THE DARKNESS OF THE EARTH, OR ANYTHING, WET OR DRY, but is recorded in a clear Record.During the conversation in the valley of Tuwa, God askd Moses (pbuh)
2017
What do you have in your right hand, Moses?Then Moses (pbuh) replied
2018
He replied, It is my staff. I lean on it, and with it, I beat down the leaves for my flock; I also have other uses for it.According to 659, do you not think God already knew about Moses' staff and what he used to do with it? Then why did God still ask him about it?
Just because God asked him about his staff does not in anyway hint that God had no knowledge of it, otherwise it would contradict with verse 659. God simply asked him about his staff as He already had a plan which required Moses' (pbuh) staff. He showed Moses (pbuh) His sign (i.e. the staff turning into a snake) which Moses was to later use it as a proof to Phoroah that he was sent by God to take the children of Israel.
Regards.
Peace scribbler,
I don't quite agree. It wouldn't contradict anything. God knows what the staff is. But Moses has a choice to decide WHAT to do with it. That choice is NOT predestined, otherwise everything would be rendered pointless. God knows the available paths Moses can take, and it also knows the consequences of those paths. But, does it know what Moses will choose? That's the question. See near the end of the article I attached to the first post.
Peace
-
Salaam all,
I believe that you are conflating a "set in stone" understanding of God and a "multiple pathway" understanding of Him. For example, two things are certain now of you...that you were born, and that you will surely die.
Between those two certainties, you can do any number of activities. Allah knows that which you want to do, that which you can do, that which you do in fact do, and the consequent paths that derive therefrom.
Being the all-knowing while not forcing us to make decisions are not mutually exclusive. I think the focus should be shifted from, "Did God know I was going to make x or y decision?" to "Does God know what I did and will I be judged by it accordingly?" To which the answer is yes.
God gave us free will, and when He chooses, we pay for our decisions. In the story of sodom/gamorrah, a whole community was removed. In the great flood of Noah's time, all perished but that which He deemed worthy of being saved. For most of us, we'll see Him on the Day of Judgement.
I'd like to sum this up with an allusion to Feinberg's Theory of Freedom and Rights, which I linked somewhere in here before. A part of that speaks of word freedom being too ambiguous. For there are 2 types of freedom. Freedom from, and freedom to.
As individuals in His kingdom, we are free to choose our path. We are however, not free from paying for the decisions that we make.
peace
PS, this is post #100 for me! Group hug! group
Peace existential,
Congrats on your 100th post ).
Could you expand on this a bit more?
Being the all-knowing while not forcing us to make decisions are not mutually exclusive. I think the focus should be shifted from, "Did God know I was going to make x or y decision?" to "Does God know what I did and will I be judged by it accordingly?" To which the answer is yes.
That was the part above ^^^ that I was wanting to get at. Could you expand on that? )
Peace )
-
Peace existential,
Congrats on your 100th post .
Thanks!
Could you expand on this a bit more?
Being the all-knowing while not forcing us to make decisions are not mutually exclusive. I think the focus should be shifted from, "Did God know I was going to make x or y decision?" to "Does God know what I did and will I be judged by it accordingly?" To which the answer is yes.
That was the part above ^^^ that I was wanting to get at. Could you expand on that?
Sure.
When people refer to poor decisions that they made, or bad things that happened to them, the cry is often something near, "If Allah knew this was going to happen, why did He let it?" or "Did He know this event x was going to happen?" The result of that question, to the weak-minded individual may lead them further from God.
I would argue that, that particular question is based on a misunderstanding that leads one to place blame on Allah instead of themselves.
In the Quran, 854 times over, the trilateral root word ('ayn lam mim) appears. From what I've read, and please someone else jump in and correct me if I've missed it, it's always present or passed tense.
(Yusif Ali) Say Whether ye hide what is in your hearts or reveal it, Allah knows it all He knows what is in the heavens, and what is on earth. And Allah has power over all things.
This is one example. Here is another.
(Shakir) Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
The context of those is that Allah knows what you did or are doing. He gave us critical thinking, and a vessel(our bodies) to perform actions based upon those thoughts. He is aware of what we do, and is taking the most diligent of notes on our actions. Not just what we do, but why.
I would contend based upon the uses of the trilateral root word ('ayn lam mim), and what was revealed to us in the Torah and Gospel, that you should view Allah's knowledge as it relates to us humans in the context of him being ever aware(or knowing) of that which we do. Therefor, there is no trick we can pull on Him. There is no crime that goes unwritten, nor no positive unwritten.
God would not have given us free will if he intended to write our paths in stone. If he did that, there would be no way to test the true believers from the non-believers. In fact, that is another analogy to be made.
If our lives are a test for God, consider Him to be the omnipresent, all-knowing, teacher. We can cheat on our test, but He will know. We can study, and perform well, and He will know that too. If someone had a distinct advantage(blessing) on the test(wealth or something that others lack) but did not use it to achieve a comparable portion to that advantage, then He knows that too.
The Quran tells us that Allah knows things that we will never know, but I feel that we have been given many signs that surely has given us free will and that He knows all that we do.
I hope that extrapolation helps.
peace
-
Peace,
Somehow through this logic it does seem redundant to pray for anything, do you not think?
Yet there are a lot of narratives in the recitation (Quran) about people in the past implored their Master about certain wishes which were granted. And still if God knew what each individual would do then the test would be redundant because God could already judge and be done with it. Do you think we are here for fun?
God is aware of everything that in the world and in ultimate control. That is true. And God has knowledge of every fact and thought that is generated by people. And God follows us in real time.
But there needs to be proof that there is no free will or free choice because nothing suggests it. But there is no free fate very surely. If God willed something then it does not matter what you did to prevent it but it will happen. Even if you are many in a fortified castle you would die against a small army if God willed or wills. You would die from a cold if God decides that.
God bless you
-
But there needs to be proof that there is no free will or free choice because nothing suggests it. But there is no free fate very surely. If God willed something then it does not matter what you did to prevent it but it will happen. Even if you are many in a fortified castle you would die against a small army if God willed or wills. You would die from a cold if God decides that.
I believe we have that proof already through the two examples I gave earlier. Sodom/Gamorrah and the Flood. God chose to revoke the free will of those individuals and end their lives at that moment.
I suppose we could say we have free will until God decides otherwise. I think Him ending free will is the exception though, not the rule. And that the point of the scriptures and prophets were to give us the opportunity to submit to Him on our own accord.
-
There may be entities, like the malaika, and perhaps even others, that are not subjected to time like we are.
Through research on something very small (quantum) and also something very big (cosmology).
We now understand that electrons and atoms can be in in multiple places at the same time.And since everything that we're aware of consist of atoms and within are electrons..
Thus everything is not "subjected to time" like we perceived it to be.
If everything is not like we perceived it to be, then............But we should not give up the concept of free choice, because it would lead to madness and passivity, and people may give their predestination as an excuse for inactivity, which in reality is just another choice. We constantly make choices and need to do so responsibly, carefully and wisely.
Whether one think he/she's merely watching the movie or he/she's among the actor of the movie, both are actually the same thing.
In both views, the movie's director is controlling all of the things..
In both cases, just enjoy the movie.."Free from desire, you realize the mystery. Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations."
-- Lao Tze -
Peace scribbler,
I don't quite agree. It wouldn't contradict anything. God knows what the staff is. But Moses has a choice to decide WHAT to do with it. That choice is NOT predestined, otherwise everything would be rendered pointless. God knows the available paths Moses can take, and it also knows the consequences of those paths. But, does it know what Moses will choose? That's the question. See near the end of the article I attached to the first post.
Peace
Yep, precisely what I was trying to say )
-
See, I don't have a problem with "most knowledgeable". To me that would be correct when thinking of the creator. I also noticed that in the monotheistic translation, there isn't anywhere which says "all-knowing". It says "the knowledgeable". There's a big difference here (for me anyway...) Where as Muhammad Asad uses "all-knowing"... Even Rashad Khalifa and Shabbir Ahmed (check quranix.net) never use "all-knowing", they use "the knower" or a similar variant....
So ... In the case for us because it willed so (notice past tense so this is predestined), we were given free choice which meant God would not know which path we would take, though I see some hints about future events in the quran so perhaps God is predicting what will happen? I hope people don't take offense and start going off on one saying how I'm undermining God. We don't compare to it, we don't know all the paths in the universe, nor the outcomes and we can't record every leaf that falls off a tree on this planet, so hell no am I undermining God.
Peace
-
sushi, salaam,
I do not hink you will ever get anywhere on the premises you are. You are a prisonner of time and you put God within that prison which is exclusively yours. It is your problem not God's problem, not even my problem not even the problem of everybody. You are getting in a jungle of your own imagination, just because you have seen some jungle, may be or because you have seen some films where there appears a jungle. Your jungles are not God. Time is need for our existence, for our material existence.
And here, I will serve you,
Yes we are all predestined, ALL, all beings, all things, absolutely predistined. We are thrown in a dream of God, where time exists an the creatures in the dream live in place called "time", but they are predestined to end as soon as the dream stops.
That is what the Qur'an keeps repeating to us, WE, EVERYTHING, RETURNS TO GOD. To God leads destiny and to God is the return. Yes that is our destiny, back to God, to the essence of God. We will cease to exist in a dream and reabsorb into reality into God.
In our existence as a dream of God, we are in time, in dream, in irreality, so we have things as time, space. God does not, and he manages his dreams as He sees fit. If He changes his dreams you will know or not, may be there have been ten million sushi or there are ten milion shusi with nhundreds of millions of years in millions and zillions of divine dreams. You are just caught in one.
Do you want to understand what is in those other zillions of dreams? You can't. You can attempt to imagine, you cannot know.
You cannot get an answer to your question because your question is wrong.
God gives us knowledge but does not give us power. You do not have the power, therefore you cannot conceive, understand what power can do.
But the good news is no matter what, we are safe. Only God exist, therefore we exist, therefore we cannot not exist. We are made of the overflowing of Divine rahma, and we will return to our Source.
Salaam
-
Peace,
We need to be very mindful of every little step that we take in our life. Predestined or not, it is an irrelevant question, to us it certainly matters what we do and that is how we perceive things.
You cannot do something and get a cause of effects and then blame that on that it was what God willed for you. Then you are in danger. Take active part to uphold and establish unity and help where help is needed. Work for the betterment of the community.
God bless you