Unforgivable Sin
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I am stating my opinion on this matter, forgive me if I am wrong. I believe it is not that God is "all" but the "most" merciful. There is a difference based off my understanding. What do you think?
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- If God is all merciful, how can it not forgive every sin.
Forgive me, sister. I can't answer this because I don't know either.
I'd like to know the answer as well.
Setting up partners with Allah is very wrong such as mention on this verse.
And Luqman said to his son while he was advising him, "O my son, do not associate partners with Allah. Indeed, associating partners is surely great wrongdoing."
Unfortunately, I still not completely understand why it is unforgivable (Qur'an 448, 4116).
However, I believe it is still forgivable if the person repent soon and does good works before his/her death (please look at the Qur'an 417-18, 3953-55, also 2568-71).
Peace. handshake
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I am stating my opinion on this matter, forgive me if I am wrong. I believe it is not that God is "all" but the "most" merciful. There is a difference based off my understanding. What do you think?
That is a good point to be ponder and studied further.
Peace.
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- If God is all merciful, how can it not forgive every sin.
God is all merciful , and God is also not stupid. . .
And of the people are some who say,
"We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.
They deceive Allah and those who believe,
but they deceive not except themselves and perceive not.
28-9 -
So i've probably asked this before, but I was reading a recent thread about how God is merciful yet doesn't forgive every sin.
I personally believed that God would forgive every sin, however if you commit idol worship, then God does not forgive this.
I want to understand
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If God is all merciful, how can it not forgive every sin.
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I suppose I could except it as unforgivable because partners are being set up with God. That being, certain attributes that are other than the godly path are unforgivable.
I want to get peoples interpretations on the verses in the Quran that talk about this (I can't remember them but I think a few verses are in Surah 4?)
Thanks guys,
Peace peace
Well if you take into account sins like
Rape
Murder
Cannibalism
Child abuse (sexual)How can God forgive these when they are so disgusting and evil? Performed by the vilest creatures on earth.
People who do these have no morals. They are incapable of repenting.
To repent, one has to have a working knowledge of good. For example someone steals money but then realises that it was wrong and so repents by working to repay the person they stole from.
A rapist for example has no conscience when they are forcing themselves on someone else. They don't have any humanity when they do this evil act. And as you see in the news, they are sadistic and have no regret for what they did.
Even if they weep a few tears and say they regret it, deep down they don't.
So some sins are unforgivable.
God is merciful but God is also just.
There is no better Judge than God.
PS Idol worship can be forgiven if the person realises their mistakes and repents. Repentance has to be genuine. God knows what we are really like.
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God is all merciful , and God is also not stupid. . .
And of the people are some who say,
"We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.
They deceive Allah and those who believe,
but they deceive not except themselves and perceive not.
28-9Hi muslims,
Your explanation of how God isn't stupid seems vague to me. Of course God isn't stupid, the utter opposite, however something complex like this shouldn't be answered with something so simply. God is ALL merciful, which means something that is all merciful has as much mercy as possible. Now, does this mean that something that is ALL merciful forgives ALL sins? I've seen some pretty merciful people who don't always forgive EVERYTHING people do.... so where are the boundaries drawn. Remember this verse
448 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives what is beside that for whom He wills. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.
and this verse
980 Whether you seek forgiveness for them, or do not seek forgiveness for them. If you seek forgiveness for them seventy times, God will not forgive them. That is because they have rejected God and His messenger; and God does not guide the wicked people.
So we know that God won't forgive this, even though people have said God forgives ALL sins (I think i remember mmkhan saying this at one point too if you remember mmkhan).
These people are described as WICKED.
Now we need to analyse WHAT setting up partners with God actually IS!
Someone who is ignorant, who has a pure heart, but has been taught to pray to a statue of Jesus (for example), TO ME, is not setting up partners with God as such. I take this to mean someone who doesn't follow the ways of God i.e. being a good person, charitable etc etc - basically all good things, being steadfast and such. Now someone who is really arrogant, full of ego, selfish to negative extents, person who seeks to cause corruption and oppression (for oppression is worse than killing) is IN MY OPINION setting up partners with God. Because we need to remember that God is an omnipotent being made up of attributes. I believe the attributes make God what it is. And if we partner these other attributes (which are what God does NOT incorporate) with God, then this is a big sin.
That's my take on it. Question is, if someone was TRULY sorry and realised their arrogance was wrong, will they be forgiven? Clearly not by the above verses... but that's what gets me. If someone changes from being a bad person to a good person (so they initially are quite bad, committing sins here and there, i.e. having an ego, thinking they can "beat" God in a sense) then they realise they are doing wrong and change their ways, are those sins committed never forgiven then and have to be made up from good doings? Not that I'm trying to say there is a points system... but you probably know what i'm talking about....
peace
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Well if you take into account sins like
Rape
Murder
Cannibalism
Child abuse (sexual)How can God forgive these when they are so disgusting and evil? Performed by the vilest creatures on earth.
People who do these have no morals. They are incapable of repenting.
To repent, one has to have a working knowledge of good. For example someone steals money but then realises that it was wrong and so repents by working to repay the person they stole from.
A rapist for example has no conscience when they are forcing themselves on someone else. They don't have any humanity when they do this evil act. And as you see in the news, they are sadistic and have no regret for what they did.
Even if they weep a few tears and say they regret it, deep down they don't.
So some sins are unforgivable.
God is merciful but God is also just.
There is no better Judge than God.
PS Idol worship can be forgiven if the person realises their mistakes and repents. Repentance has to be genuine. God knows what we are really like.
"Even if they weep a few tears and say they regret it, deep down they don't. "
I don't think you can make that kind of judgment truthseeker.
You do have to delve a bit deeper into this one. You have to consider psychological errors with the mind. I'm not causing an excuse, but perhaps the person who commits these things (for example rape) has been damaged from some mental torture as a young child. Perhaps they have been raped and they believed that's the way to show love. Then later on down the line in years to come, when they've been confronted by what they've done, they get the sudden realisation that what they did is wrong and not love... but abusing the other person's freedom and rights. They are, on the other hand, people who WANT to abuse others because they feel they can. They feel they are powerful if they do so. Some of these people are genuinely sorry whole-heartedly and realise their wrongs, must are defiant and stick by what they did and feel it was right. These are people that you might be able to say should not be forgiven for what they have done, and i think this would relate to "setting up partners" with God. Those partners being their own ego, arrogance and misuse of trust and power.
Tell me your thoughts.
peace
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Salamun Alaikum.
If you may, let me propose a hypothetical case to introduce my understanding of what is meant by shirk - ?associating partners? (as an unforgivable sin).
Imagine you are wondering penny-less in a foreign land. A wealthy shop-owner offers you a job as a shop-keeper. You gladly except it. Your job is to conduct the shop throughout the day and keep the sales proceeds. At the end of the day the shop-owner returns and collects the proceeds and then gives you your fixed daily salary. The shop-owner has given you strict instructions ? ?Do not give money from the sales proceed to anyone other than me or someone with my direct authorization?. This arrangement goes on for a while.
Then one day, while the shop-owner is away a new man comes and says, I am owner of half of the shop, so hand-over half of the sales proceeds to me. Of course you do not believe him and refuse. Then he brings in several witnesses from the neighbours who all testify that this ?new man? is indeed joint-owner of the shop. You have the following 3 options
- Do not believe them and refuse to give any money to the new man.
- Believe the witnesses BUT refuse to give any money to the new man until the shop-owner returns and verifies the claim of the new man.
- Give the new man the money.
Imagine what would be the original shop-owner?s reaction to each of you decisions above. My thoughts are as follows
For action 1 He will be happy for what you did.
For action 2 He may blame you for being gullible, but will still be happy for what you did.
For action 3 He will be angry because you associated partner with him. If the new man is an imposter ? you are probably going to lose your job.The takeaway from the hypothetical case It does not amount to associating partner by simply believing someone as partner of other (case 2), you effectively associate someone as partner of another when you act upon such belief (case 3).
So, my understanding is Shirk does not mean to believe or accept someone as partner to God ? shirk happens when someone contravenes God?s command (i.e. the conscience which God has given everyone) acting on someone else?s word ? accepting him as a partner to God.
Simply having wrong conception about God / Allah is definitely a form of transgression and ignorance ? but it does not necessarily constitute an unforgivable sin.
See how the word shirk ? has NOT been used in the following cases
4171 O! Fraternity of the book ? do not exceed limits in your resolution (deen) and do not say about Allah but the truth. Jesus Christ, son of Mary was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He offered to Mary and a spirit from Him. So, believe in Allah and His messengers and do not say, ?Three!? Cease! It is better for you. Only Allah is one God. Exalted be Him ? that he would have a son for Him. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belongs to Him and Allah suffices as an Executive.
? ? ?
7138 And We took the children of Israel beyond the sea ? then they were brought upon a people devoted to their idols. They said, ?O Moses! Assign a god for us like the gods they have.? He said, ?Indeed you are an ignorant people!?
7139 ?Indeed these are ruined ? whatever they are in it ? and vain is how they happen to act!?
7140 He said, ?Should I seek for you a god other than Allah ? while He has graced you over the universe??
? ? ?
(My personal translation ? cross checking is recommended)
So, if we apply this principle
- Praying to idols ? is ignorance. But when someone contravenes his conscience to please an idol (e.g. human sacrifice at an altar) that is shirk.
- Believing in trinity ? is ignorance. But when someone contravenes his conscience to establish Kingdom of Jesus (e.g. transgressions by crusaders) that is shirk.
- Believing in hadis superseding word of Allah ? is ignorance. But when someone contravenes his conscience to "suppossedly" follow a hadis (e.g. directly participate in stoning a person accused of adultery / apostasy; or kills people to protest cartoon of Muhammad pbh, or bombs public places in the name of jihad) that is shirk.
Let us revisit another group of verses on Jesus and Trinity
572 Those who say, ?Indeed Allah ? He is the Christ, son of Mary? certainly repress (faith) ? while the Christ said, ?Be slave to Allah ? my Master and your Master.? Indeed he who associates partners with Allah then certainly Allah has prohibited the garden for him ? and his refuge is the fire, and for the wrongdoers there are no helpers.
573 Those who say, ?Indeed Allah is third of trinity? certainly repress (faith) ? and there is none of a god except the One God. And if they do not cease from what they are saying, surely a painful suffering will touch those who repress (faith) among them.
574 So, will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving, Kind.
(My personal translation ? cross checking is recommended)
See, shirk has been mentioned in 572 ? but it does not say that all these people commit shirk. Rather it warns these people of committing shirk. Furthermore, 574 clearly shows, simply believing in trinity or Jesus as God is not an ?unforgivable sin?.
Now that we have defined what shirk is and what it is not, let us revisit the verse which says shirk is an unforgivable sin
448 Indeed Allah does not forgive that partner be associated with Him, but He forgives from other than that from whomever He wills ? And whoever associates partners with Allah, then certainly he has invented a great sin.
(My personal translation ? cross checking is recommended)
So, killing, raping, kidnapping, arson, bombing? these are all great sins ? and all great sins can be forgiven by our Master ? because at the end of the day Allah decides how to compensate the victims. But how about people who perform such sins to supposedly please ?Allah?? If Allah forgives them, would Allah be considered Merciful? What kind of Judge would let a criminal go because the criminal says he only did it as someone else suggested it would please the judge! If the judge becomes soft on this criminal and forgives him, how would that judgement reflect on the judge?
May Allah guide us to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
I am not sure God forgives rape and all those things. As I recall God says tht nobody marries a zani except a zani or a mushrik (associator). So I think the mushrik part encompasses more things than just saying or doing an acknowledgement in words or thoughts of setting gods besides Allah.
In fact, the zani, the raper, the whatever, when he or she does those things is stting partners, is idolizing his own covetousness, his own cruel desires on all cretaures and above God.
So I doubt that the mushrik thing is just restricted to "formal" invention of a partner to God, but rather to set up anything at a par with God or above God, and that occurs when we do that under no constraint with our own particular "gods".
In fact what Armanaziz says goes a lot that way. It is what we do, not what we formally formulate. It is not the same to rape somebody because otherwise somebody will kill your children or your mother, for instance, than to rape somebody because you can and you feel all powerful. Indeed, you are setting up your own devilish desires above God commands. I have not searched further than the zani thing, but may be there are other mentions of that in the Qur'an.
Salaam
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I think Armanaziz is being too soft on idol worshippers - from my experience with those who pursue the trinity, it is not ignorance, it is very much deliberate unfortunately....
But I personally do not believe any sin is 'unforgiveable', providing you work hard enough to compensate effectively for the transgression.
I do not think I could live in a universe(s) where there was a limit on forgiveness .
Peace.
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I guess we first have to ask ourselves whether or not we think God and the system is fair and just. If we choose to think that God is fair and just, actually and really, then perhaps it is that we don't understand what shirk is and specifically the relation between shirk and reality. Obviously shirk must be something crucial, and not just a matter of faith where we believe in many gods. I mean, why would God forgive rape and murder, but not the belief in several gods? Either we do like atheists, and reject religion and God totally, since the whole deal seems unfair and insane, OR we have to reevaluate what shirk means, and what it actually means to set up partners with God. It should be something very serious... but perhaps we just don't get it.
I think one huge problem comes from religion and the human being's inability to perceive the unseen and immaterial. The human being often takes God as external being with emotional traits. If we see God this way, we have actually set up a partner with God, in the form of a mental image.
When we talk about God forgiving rape and other atrocities, then again we fragment things and take things out of context. Things may or may not be forgiven based on our record as a whole, and our intentions. It's not about the sin, it's about us. And not about a separate divine entity sitting up there judging our separate deeds. It would more be like that the sunnatullah will deal with us as per our collected record and vibration, ad in effect we are judging ourselves every moment. It is all one system, ever active, but perhaps there will be a point in time where consequences will come to us suddenly due to a change in our circumstances (such as leaving this material body). So if a certain sin is forgiven or not would depend on our overall record and our intentions. Shirk on the other hand is not just another sin. It is something else, at a very fundamental level, hence it's unforgivable nature. I mean, God is not an emotional character who has simply decided that one sin is unforgivable and others are not. This way of thinking, believing in a separate emotional God, will lead to religion, or atheism... and perhaps to shirk.
So, when we say Allah is all-merciful, we are not talking about a divine individual who is or isn't, or wants or doesn't want to, forgive certain things. Thinking in terms of can/cannot when talking about Allah is not valid. Allah is not human-like. Also, we probably have twisted ideas about what a sin really is. Religion seems to teach that a sin is an act which goes against the desire of their human like God. It would be better to shift the focus back to us, and away from an external judge. A sin is bad because is ruins us in a very practical way, not because it goes against the likings of a external God. A deed is labelled sin because is effectively blinds us more, and hardens our hearts a bit more, and shuts our spiritual selves down a bit more. Sinning is bad for us. Allah is in no need of us not sinning. Forgiveness is something built into the sunnatullah. If we mend our ways, we are bringing forgiveness upon ourselves simply because that is the way the system works. Shirk must be something like to ultimate illusion and misconception... the thing most far away from truth. I guess shirk is not forgiven simply because when filled with shirk you are beyond recovery.
Peace
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A sin is bad because is ruins us in a very practical way, not because it goes against the likings of a external God. A deed is labelled sin because is effectively blinds us more, and hardens our hearts a bit more, and shuts our spiritual selves down a bit more. Sinning is bad for us. Allah is in no need of us not sinning.
Salamun Alaikum.
I would put the above in a slightly different angle. "Sin" or something being bad is a "perception" that Allah has built into human conciousness. When a star explodes into a supernova destroying other planets and stars - it is not a "sin" for the star because the star does not have any conciousness. Even when a tiger kills another tiger or a human we do not call it a sin. But when a man kills another man unreasonably - that is a sin because humans have conciousness.
I agree 100% that "A sin is bad ... not because it goes against the likings of a external God." But rather a sin is bad because God has built such understanding in us. Now who is my God? My God is the one who gave me my senses - my morality and my intellect. So, upholding the morality and intellect is synnonymous to upholding God's will. If an external book (be it Qur'an, Torah, Gospel, Geeta, Tripitok whatever) confirms human morality and intellect only then may be acceptable as a book "from near Allah", else it is nothing but ramblings of a deity (tagoot). We have been commanded to hide (faith) in deity (tagoot) preaching nonsense that do not confirm to our sense and sensibility and start believing in Allah who created us as humans with our human understanding of good and bad, right and wrong.
To summarize, our External God (the God whom we read in holy books, to whom we pray etc.) must be the one and same with our internal God (the God who has given us life, conciousness, morality and intellect). If they are not... that should be the immediate alarm bell... we are probably worshipping tagoot, not Allah. But when these two views of God are one and same - we have then grasped the most firm handhold
2256 There is no compulsion in the resolution (deen). Verily, the right has become clearly distinct from the error ? then whoever represses (faith) in deity (tagoot) and believes in Allah has grasped the most firm handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearer, Knowledgeable.
(My personal translation - cross checking recommended)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
When I wrote my previous message I did not forumlate it but I took for granted that repentance meets forgiveness. A rapist can repent, a mushrik can repent. I am afraid that if it was nto so, there would not be much hope in the world. Most people need repentand, or at least acknowledgemente of their wornd deeds and the purpose not to fall again on them.
Indeed, if the repentant met not forgiveness, then God would be a lier and the the intimate feeling of which speaks Armanaziz, would also be lying to us.
Given that the question arises, if God forgives after repentance but does not forgive this or that never, it means that He forgives some things even without repentance. Is that so? I think so. We do wrong things but without
setting partners to Him. Sometimes we are mean out of habit, out despite, out outter silliness and despondency... But without deliberate will to act like monsters, out of arrogance and pride. I think that when the Catholic Church set satanic pride as the king of sins she was right. I think that the delirium to feel that we are masters is the sin that makes us blind to reality and therefore unable to repent of real sins. A raper or a murderer who sets himself master of other cratures is blind to divinity in himself and in everything.I have the feeling that that thing that prevents firgiveness because in fact it prevents repentance, os satanic pride, what in Spanish is called "soberbia" which is very distinct from common pride, which in Spanish is again another word "orgullo". Soberbia sets us against God, it is beyond bonds, pride (orgullo) is human, is bad but it is still human.
The setting partners is in fact the deliberate rebelion against anything restricting us, voluntarily or unvoluntarily, except what we choose.
In fact that is what the Shaytan did, he set up partners to God deluding himself that he was master, and some masterhood God has accorded to him and to humans, but a false one. That is what prevents us from repenting and therefore from seeing reality. When we soften and let reality sin in within us and we are able to repent we will stop being blind, blind to our hearts, to the suffering of the humans and other creatures we harm...
Repentance is the paradise of Tlaloc, where tears clean us of our dirt and bring back life to our eyes.
May the Divine give us those in abundance to be able to see our closeness to God, our closeness to the divinity our identity with It. And may we be forgiven of everything forever.
Salaam