Invitation to join the debate at faihfreedom.org
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Hi,
Here in France, history books talk about an historic character named Mohammed (Mahomet in french).
I am not sure we should deny the existence of the character (just like there are studies about the historical Jesus), but just point out the fact that the message is what we follow. The conjectures about the messenger are irrelevant IMO. -
today I was just visiting the faithfreedom site to check upon the debate. I think it wasnt a smart thing to do to paste all those history about the prophet which also comes from hadith and many other books. As Edip is going against history or hadith for Quranic understanding than it was not necessary at all to quote all those. Now ali Sina has a valid argument to bring on the other part of hadith which talks negative abt the prophet. Now it seems that edip and Sina are both using hadith, but differently as which supports their arguement.
Dear brother Shamsul Arifin
No, Ali Sina has no valid argument. You inshallah will see my rebuttal to his latest answers in a couple of days. I know that it seems that my case is hopeless regarding that article about Muhammad's mission.
But, it was a trap for Ali Sina and he fell over it. This is an intellectual war, and there are ways to expose the dishonest enemy. Wait and see)
As for argument regarding Ahmad and Muhammad, I consider it a very far-fetched and even silly conspiracy theory.
The verse "ismuhu ahmad" means his name or his description is more praised. Ahmad in that verse is not a proper name but an adjective, in Arabic called, ismu-l tafdil. Ism in Arabic does not necessarily means NOUN; in fact, it means "description" and all Jewish and Arabic proper names had meaning and were descriptive.
If the promised messengers proper name was AHMAD as you claim, than this name should have been commonly used by early Christians who received this prophecy from Jesus. Do you think they were just disappeared?
There are many other historical, logical, and Quranic problems with this cospiracy theory regarding the name. It just astonishes me how enlightened brothers like you fall into the vertigo of such wierd universe ?
Peace,
Edip -
Salaam,
I visited the Ali Sina website to read about the "debate - round ( shock ???) VI).
Here is what I read
You may say but Muslims are humans too. Is having the human appearance enough to make us humans? The sign of humanity is in our humanness. No person who believes in those inhumane teachings of the Quran that calls for killing and murder of innocent people deserves to be called human. Therefore, this is a war between humanity and a spiritually underdeveloped subhuman species. The actions of Muslims are barbaric. Their thoughts are beastly. They have no human conscience and they are preying on us humans. So this is a war between humans and Muslims.
So Muslims are not human? shock
That reminds me a startegy used by the Bush government + Fox News to justify the war against Irak You show your "ennemies" in an angle that makes them look like monsters, without caring about the diversity among them - The result is that, in the view of the public, they are "de-humanized", they become bloodthursty monsters, so killing them is not like killing "real humans"... -
Salaam,
People who kill others usually use this tactic to convince themselves that they are not killing a fellow human, but a sub human. However I do understand Ali Sina's idea that these people are not human because they do not embody humane ethics. Yet, regardless, they are still human and should not be looked at as sub-human. These are just humans who are opposite to other humans and the other humans and the other humans. lol
Joe
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Peace be upon you Edip,
No, Ali Sina has no valid argument. You inshallah will see my rebuttal to his latest answers in a couple of days. I know that it seems that my case is hopeless regarding that article about Muhammad's mission.
But, it was a trap for Ali Sina and he fell over it. This is an intellectual war, and there are ways to expose the dishonest enemy. Wait and see
That excites me!
As for argument regarding Ahmad and Muhammad, I consider it a very far-fetched and even silly conspiracy theory.
WHat is silly about it?
The verse "ismuhu ahmad" means his name or his description is more praised. Ahmad in that verse is not a proper name but an adjective, in Arabic called, ismu-l tafdil. Ism in Arabic does not necessarily means NOUN; in fact, it means "description" and all Jewish and Arabic proper names had meaning and were descriptive.
Yes, and that is the basis for the argument. It is descriptive of "Hamd" meaning his description will be more appreciated(ahmad). So when we add "MU" to this concept, it means one who is appreciative.
We cannot verify ANY of the messengers, all we can do is follow the lesson. The only weapon for the rejectors are the made up stories of a historical figure. No one can prove these historical figures, not prove they did not exsist, so we have to rely on the guidance of the God when He says DO NOT PURSUE that which you have no knowledge of. So our only option is to understand "muhammadun" as a characteristic. And it fits the overall context of the reading(quran).
If the promised messengers proper name was AHMAD as you claim, than this name should have been commonly used by early Christians who received this prophecy from Jesus. Do you think they were just disappeared?
Brother Edip, no one has claimed that this messengers name was "Ahmad". What is being show here is that "hamd, ahmad, and muhammad" are all related and you should not take one as a proper name and the other as a description. We should BE muhammad, not look for a historical muhammad.
There are many other historical, logical, and Quranic problems with this cospiracy theory regarding the name. It just astonishes me how enlightened brothers like you fall into the vertigo of such wierd universe
YOU WERE NOT PRESENT. YOU WERE NOT A WITNESS. Please bring your evidence of a real person named Muhammad that wrote this book. This is not a book about history, it is about guidance in the eternal present.
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Salaamun alaikum,
Kyle YOU WERE NOT PRESENT. YOU WERE NOT A WITNESS. Please bring your evidence of a real person named Muhammad that wrote this book. This is not a book about history, it is about guidance in the eternal present.
Al-Quraan 21/10 We have revealed for you (O men!) a book in which is YOUR OWN MENTIONING will ye not then THINK?
Al-Quraan seems to agree , Kylester D
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Today I posted a lengthy answer to Ali Sina, and accepted the offer to tone down the language of our debate. But, I read the posting above, which quoted the following paragraph, I wrote the following and posted at faithfreedom.org/forum
You may say but Muslims are humans too. Is having the human appearance enough to make us humans? The sign of humanity is in our humanness. No person who believes in those inhumane teachings of the Quran that calls for killing and murder of innocent people deserves to be called human. Therefore, this is a war between humanity and a spiritually underdeveloped subhuman species. The actions of Muslims are barbaric. Their thoughts are beastly. They have no human conscience and they are preying on us humans. So this is a war between humans and Muslims.
Ali
Someone posted the above excerpt in another site claiming that Ali Sina wrote it. I know that your mouth is filled with foam and venom against Muslims, but I do not expect you to be using the exact language of Fascists and Nazis. In case you have not written the above-qouted idiotic statements, which I hope that you have not, then ignore these words and let the real source get my message.
To the coward vampire, who is instigating wars and genocides
You are the real subhuman, you are a vampire who is thirsty to suck the blood of more than a billion humans on this planet. If this is an irrational reaction to a terrorist event that killed several thousand people, then you should demonstrate many times more hatred and irrational reaction to the terrorism, atrocities, murders, and massacres committed by USA-INC, UK, USSR, and Israel; in the last century alone, in which they killed MILLIONS of PEOPLE and destroyed countries and annihilated entire cities! By calling destruction of entire cities, together with families and children, with the word WAR does not make a bit difference.
Though I condemn a warmongering group of hypocrite Christians by calling their name Evilgelical, I never justify killing Evilgelical Christians, let alone all Christians, or killing Zionist Jews, let alone all Jews. You are a monster using the mask of humanism. You cannot be a human; you are a hatemonger and blood-thirsty creature.
I do not condone killing animals like you; but I might approve of putting a leash around your dirty neck.
Peace is our weapon against fascist warmongers.
Yes, PEACE
Edip -
Edip,
The paragraph is in ROUND VI
http//www.faithfreedom.org/debates/EdipYukselp19.htm
Edip is absolutely right. I am not only willing but striving to bring all the people of the world together and make them see that humanity is under attack by an alien enemy who does not see us as Christians, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, or Animists but merely as kafirs and as such deserving to die. Their enmity is with Mankind.
You may say but Muslims are humans too. Is having the human appearance enough to make us humans? The sign of humanity is in our humanness. No person who believes in those inhumane teachings of the Quran that calls for killing and murder of innocent people deserves to be called human. Therefore, this is a war between humanity and a spiritually underdeveloped subhuman species. The actions of Muslims are barbaric. Their thoughts are beastly. They have no human conscience and they are preying on us humans. So this is a war between humans and Muslims.
Now he has edited portions of that round so please post these as soon as possible on your thread - to make his weasel tactics ineffective. I believe he may remove that section as it has just incriminated him.
Peace.
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I wouldnt even bother talking to Sina. He b*tches everytime a muslim kills someone, but remains completely silent when the US, the UK and Israel eliminate entire nations. The US was built on genocide. 500 years ago this was the land of the native americans, now their race doesnt even exist. The US nuked Japan killing 100's of thousands of people in an instant but he doesn't even raise an eyebrow to that. He only cares about a US soldier who was on duty being killed even though that soldier made a pledge to give his life for his nation. Ali Sina persues Nazi-like tactics try to persuade others to join his view. To him, politics and religion are the same thing even though they are completely different in every aspect. He is fooling no one but himself.
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Someone at faithfreedom.org/forum blames me of accusing Ali Sina based on hearsay. Ironically, he quoted the part, in which I expressed my doubts regarding its source and I simply lamented to the author of the excerpt whomever he was. Despite this request for clarification in the beginning of the article and my friendly wish, how a person with a gram of fairness would blame me of accusing Ali Sina based on hearsay. The language of the excerpt was close to Ali Sina's, though its Hitler-style thirst for the blood of the followers of a particular religion was something I have not heard before, so I asked his clarification regarding the authorship.
I am waiting for Ali Sina's answer for this matter, ASAP. This excerpt is not something simple to get away with it. I will explain after Ali Sina's rejection or admission. And I hope he will reject or rescind it. I will accept his denial even if he was the one who had written in a moment of irrationality and rabid insanity.
Today I found the same paragraph posted at
http//www.faithfreedom.org/debates/EdipYukselp19.htmYou may say but Muslims are humans too. Is having the human appearance enough to make us humans? The sign of humanity is in our humanness. No person who believes in those inhumane teachings of the Quran that calls for killing and murder of innocent people deserves to be called human. Therefore, this is a war between humanity and a spiritually underdeveloped subhuman species. The actions of Muslims are barbaric. Their thoughts are beastly. They have no human conscience and they are preying on us humans. So this is a war between humans and Muslims.
So, Ali Sina, if it is not you who has written the above Neo Nazi remarks then who is posting articles together with you? If it is you, be brave and come here.
Tell me whether it is indeed NOT you who have declared himself to be a promoter of genocide by dehumanizing all muslims. Tell me that a TALIBAN or a NEONAZI hacker hacked your website and wrote answer in your name. I would be glad to accept this senario. Because, I cannot believe that a person who is smart enough to engage in intellectual debates, though frequently sniffing and stuffing himself with holy trash, could be author of such rabid and diabolic words!
SALAM, that is PEACE
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Salaamun alaikum Edip,
Could you ask Ali Sina why, if is he so insistent you accept hadith, that he refuses to accept the hadith which assert the nubuwwat/prophethood of Muhammad ? Why take one but reject the other ?
Also, his analogy about the police and tips is absolute rubbish, because you can follow up a tip. If the tip was made 200 years before, how are you to be expected to follow it ?
thanks and salaam.
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Peace is our weapon against fascist warmongers.
Peace as long as these warmongers religious fanatics stay within their borders. They will get no peace by invading Iraq based on their media deceptions and lies. Americans must realize that they can't impose their corrupt oppressive corporate rule commonly known as "democracy" in muslim world. I support Iraq Resistance and pray for these brave men daily.
Faith Freedom is run by people who are allergic to Qur'an, Muhammad, Islam, Muslims all they have hatred. They live to hate muslims oppose muslims find all stupid logic to justify killing of innocent women, children, unarmed civilians, unarmed injured.
I decided not to post anything there because it will be a waste of time.