Fasting - at the poles?
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At least Scandinavia is not as bad as Canada or Siberia... we have the Gulf Stream taking the edge of the chill.
Regarding fasting at the poles.... I wouldn't say the lack of heat is the issue.
The issue, for me at least, is that the current translations/interpretations of the quran do not match with nature!!!.You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn. (2/187)
Oh yeah? We don't have such a time during the 24hrs during a great part of the summer... and it is "worse" the farther north you get. North of the arctic circle, the sun doesn't even set at all for about two weeks around midsummer, and obviously there is no dark "isha" period either for much more time than those two weeks. Sooo, how does this natural phenomenon go with the quranic instruction?
There is definitely something fishy going on here. Something is wrong. The instruction cannot be upheld, due to nature itself. Nature doesn't lie, so the issue is somewhere in the interpretation of the quran.
This is a huge issue, but most people do not pay attention simply because they do not live in such areas... and the traditionalists that do, simply resort to following a timetable, often of another country, disregarding the actual light in the sky.
brickwall
Peace y'all
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Peace A.Wayne,
Intentions are crucial, do not fast (purify) anymore than the rest of us, people in such areas should take the hours
of fasting as a general guideline. With modern technology the world is a much smaller place, therefore one solution to
consider would be to fast with the nearest location in line with the rest of the ummah. Remember, the Quran is the book
of guidance, a roadmap for those who aspire to salvation, therefore take the best approach to its instructions.Have a blessed Ramadan
peace
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Peace A.Wayne,
Intentions are crucial, do not fast (purify) anymore than the rest of us, people in such areas should take the hours
of fasting as a general guideline. With modern technology the world is a much smaller place, therefore one solution to
consider would be to fast with the nearest location in line with the rest of the ummah. Remember, the Quran is the book
of guidance, a roadmap for those who aspire to salvation, therefore take the best approach to its instructions.Have a blessed Ramadan
peace
Like only beating the wife lightly with a toothpick. >D
I agree that intentions are the main thing... and we should also do the best of the situation at hand. Then we also need to use our brain and ponder our observations, draw conclusions and seek guidance. This is after-all how we stop chopping hands off of thieves, beating up wives and so on and so forth.
people in such areas should take the hours of fasting as a general guideline.
Why assume the quranic instructions, i.e. the wordings, are just guidelines and not exact? I was always under the impression that the quranic words were exact to the point.
therefore one solution to consider would be to fast with the nearest location in line with the rest of the ummah.
Yes, this is what many people do. It's a compromise, in order to be able to uphold the tradition/their understanding of the quran. It doesn't solve the issue at hand though, but yes, it is a compromise one can adopt in lack of a better solution. Allah knows best I guess.
Peace bro
All the best -
I agree that intentions are the main thing... and we should also do the best of the situation at hand. Then we also need to use our brain and ponder our observations, draw conclusions and seek guidance. This is after-all how we stop chopping hands off of thieves, beating up wives and so on and so forth.
Agreed
Why assume the quranic instructions, i.e. the wordings, are just guidelines and not exact? I was always under the impression that the quranic words were exact to the point.
My observance of the Quran in that it is indeed exact, it's just that sometimes I am unable to extract certain meanings.
This has been discussed several times before. Re-read 2185
Thanks Wakas
2/185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of
the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and
whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you,
and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you
should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.Correct me if I'm wrong but, the essence/context is that their is wiggle room in regards as to the fast, yes/no?
All have a blessed Ramadan
peace
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and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you,
and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you
should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.Correct me if I'm wrong but, the essence/context is that their is wiggle room in regards as to the fast, yes/no?
Any permitted wiggle is a mercy, but here the wiggle seems to be to make up for occasional periods of travel or illness, not permanent tilt of the Earth.
Perhaps I'm mistaken. I'm just sharing some doubts and confusions I have. Right now I'm lost and perhaps Allah will guide me.Peace all
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I am tending to think tht what Jane said in a message that fast is fixed in a solar calendar all over and that it is to be on the day of equinox and the adjacet days. That would settle de difficulty of no daylight or no nightime, and having everybody move to Meka in order to be sure that they are fasting properly.
Salaam
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I am tending to think tht what Jane said in a message that fast is fixed in a solar calendar all over and that it is to be on the day of equinox and the adjacet days. That would settle de difficulty of no daylight or no nightime, and having everybody move to Meka in order to be sure that they are fasting properly.
Salaam
Indeed it would, and therefor it sounds very sensible and natural to me. Member noshirk has written quite some on that... but in the end, after reading the posts, and the criticism, I didn't come to any solid conclusion. I like what noshirk wrote, but one should also not go on just what one likes. I need to be thoroughly convinced... and I'm not sure whether or not that becomes a problem for me at times. I need to stop looking for perfect packages of solutions, and start picking the best of what I find and also do some proper research of my own. In any case, I got put off by the intricacies of 'sanatun' and all calculations of lunar and solar months and years and different ages of people in the quran.
sigh
Peace
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I think that it is a matter of seeing how it fits in the actual text of the Qur'an. Sometimes we are tied by an interpretation handed down and taken for granted and once you dismantle it, it happens that the text itself offers no difficulty at all. So, as far as I am concerned it is a matter of checking text. This is the first time I have gotten into the question of the fast and for how long and when.
As to the age of prophets that I do not seemto find such complication. two different terms are used in the casi of Noah. They have been taken usually as if the were the same but, obviously they cannot be if they are handled as distinct in the Qur'an and there is a meaning specific to each even if they have been taken as the same and on top of it when understood that way it makes far more sense than otherwise.
Of course, one advantage of the fasting ramad?n all over the lunar year is giving the experts authority in that. Whereas in the Qur'an nobody expert seems to be required in order to fast.
Salaam
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Could Al fajr and Al layl possibly refer to timings and not to some phenomenon of nature? I am just thinking out aloud here. We know that the Quran often spoke briefly - because the audience was already well acquinted with the concepts and meanings of certain words. Could anyone expert at Arabic confirm that al fajr and al layl only refer to dawn and night and can not refer to timings? By timings I am thinking clocks. Ofcourse clocks the like of today weren't around, but water clocks and sundials were as old as BC, so...
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I am tending to think tht what Jane said in a message that fast is fixed in a solar calendar all over and that it is to be on the day of equinox and the adjacet days.
Hang on I don't remember saying the equinox bit...unless you can show me the post? I know I have said a few times I think it is Autumn time, yes. But not necessarily the equinox which is a third of the way into September... I am thinking Ramadan as some have translated to be 'after heat' can't be mid-summer but like August time. I thought I had confirmation because the 'Night of Power' seems to be connected with the rising of 'Sirius' or the 'dog star' in my translation of the Quran which, according to my own research happens some time in August.
But
Problem 1) The galaxies are not permanent things and maybe the stars will have had a different course through the sky back in 7th century Arabia so the August time may not actually be 'correct'. Plus I believe the star is not visible everywhere in the world especially not in cloudy Britain.Problem 2) I do not fully trust the translation I have or indeed any of them as I believe none can fully convey the original nor am I fully convinced that the Quran does say that it was revealed in this one night. That sounds too much like the hadith books influencing the translaters again.
Problem 3) I am still wondering if women might actually be exempt from mandatory fasting which makes it irrelevant for me anyway
Problem 4) there are so many people who believe it is around the summer solstice with a lot of evidence presented, how can they all be wrong?
Problem 5) If Ramadan is the '9 month' then that does indicate September
Problem 6) This still doesn't answer the basic question why would something that worked for people in arabia be right for people who live in northern europe. Shouldn't everyone live according to their own climate? The 'natural' time to fast here would be late spring not autumn or summer which is harvest time.
Aaaargh!
giveup
Peace out
peace
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I read that suggestion in one message of yours, I know you were doubting, but I read that, amonsto other things. I do not say you chose that alternative.
Howeve, if it is when the heat is past, a safe date for both emispheres would be the equinox. I don't see what that would change if it is in Arabia or anywhere else. That is a very important factor.
But, as I said, that is a matter of checking what the Qur'an actually says. I have not come to that yet.
As to the harvest, I come from peasant families and I would say that by the equinox the worst is over. The worst is precisely the summer including august. But of course it depends of the kind of crops that are being grown.
In the past, since so much work was manual, I think any time except the crudest winter might be hard, today I do not see that the equinox timeing would be more unbearable that any time later, and it would be the same for people all over.
May be it is lunar and it is meant to change from year to year, I do not know. As I say I would have to check on that and that may be long job, since so many other checkings would have to be made on the kind of calendar and all that.
Salaam
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peace all,
hawk99, I was referring to this (bold)
2/185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of
the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you witnessed the shahr, he shall fast therein, and
whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you,
and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you
should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.What happens if you don't witness it?
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Thanks Wakas, I had not paid due attention to the piece highlighted and underlined, I think that conclusively settles it.
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Peace Wakas,
You will be doooomed to Heeeelllll!
No, but you can compensate by doing charitable deeds. Sawm is just a encouragement for whatever it is supposed to be and for how long.
My trouble with the understanding is how God can say not wanting to make it difficult to us and the implement a "monster-fast" of approximately 30 days.
My other suspicion is why the "Islamic" fast is not in line with fasting in Judaism or Christianity which "Islam" is supposed to be the same faith just revealed to different communities.
My job is physically demanding and I live in Sweden with intensive monster-fasts and I can hardly fast while I need to work. I would jeopardize my health.
The mystery around Ramadhan is my last black zone in faith really after being confident about what I know about everything else.
God bless you
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Peace,
For the benefit of everyone. I have confirmed that Ramadan literally means - "intense heat" - "hararah shadeedah", I am at work right now, several colleagues are local arabs. Ofcourse as I expected, initially they told me that it's the month of fasting. But then I asked them aside from its traditional meaning, it definitely means "intense heat". So Shahr-e-Ramadan - month of intense heat. Therefore logically there is no fasting in cold months.
For people who are unable to fast, God has laid out alternatives of course. God indeed wishes ease for us, but that doesn't imply that there will not be any challenge or strive. Of course, fasting is for our own good, as God says. I am not a biology expert, but it does stimulate detoxification - from a physical perspective, and heat has a part to play in that. There may be other benefits.
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Well, I wouldn't consider 10-20 degrees C (appr. 50-70 degrees F) to be intense heat though. This is what many places get in summer.
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If the fasting should bring benefits through the heat in the environment, then again this only works in some parts of the world. But this heat benefit has no real basis in the Qur'an I guess.
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The meaning "intense heat" would then probably describe a time of the year in the very geographical location where the Qur'an was revealed.
For those who enjoy calendars... I bumped into this on the web. Not sure if it is crap or contains some validity. It's quite lengthy.
http//www.ccg.org/english/s/p053.htmlPeace
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I recently had this troubling thought, how does one living at the North or South Pole fast as per the prescription in the Quran?
A couple of things I already have in mind
Perhaps the poles were not inhabited at that time? My knowledge is lacking here- hence this thought' but then that creates a conflict in the Quran"s claim of being i.e. "a guidance for mankind" - implied meaning "all" mankind of course.
Fasting is prescribed in "Ramadan" i.e the month of high heat, or the month in which the Quran was revealed. What are we supposed to lean upon? Fasting because supposedly fasting in the heat is beneficial for the body? or, because it is more of a spiritual endeavor to be more aware of God? Either way, that creates a problem for those living in parts of the world, where the days can be unhealthly long and nights unhealthly short...or am I missing something from the Quran when it comes down to understanding?
Fasting is an initial stage of self-discipline to acquire self-control.
The technicalities of how you do it, where and when doesn't really matter.Every culture / tradition have their own technicality details of how and when, suited to their own living environment.
But it's the objective that matter, not the technicalities...
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Peace,
I agree that the objective matters and that the purpose of fasting is to acquire self-discipline and self control. But this is just a means to an end, i.e. God's good pleasure and forgiveness - that is the real objective. But the objective is only meaningful if you do it the way God prescribes it (and you can find it in the Quran if it matters). Without that all of this is meaningless anyway.
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I agree that the objective matters and that the purpose of fasting is to acquire self-discipline and self control. But this is just a means to an end, i.e. God's good pleasure and forgiveness
If God's forgiveness is your objective.
Then you need to 'forgive' others..
The rule is that simple.. do unto others what you want God do to you..And 'self-control' will help you do that.
With 'self-control' you can avoid any negative emotional outburst, fanaticism, grudges, urge for revenge and it shall makes it easier for you to forgive.But the objective is only meaningful if you do it the way God prescribes it (and you can find it in the Quran if it matters). Without that all of this is meaningless anyway.
Without the end-result of actual 'good deed' / 'action'. rite is meaningless.
While technicalities of the rites doesn't matter.Feel free to study the world around you for evidence of it..
Book and writings can be forged, but the actual world around you no human can forge it..
