Resolve the confusion--pronoun in 16:66 and 23:21
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The HAA and HI are not referring to ALAN3AAM but to MIMMA FI BOTUN.
I know it's hard to understand because it goes against traditional grammar, but give it a try to understand what I am saying.You are partially correct that masculine pronoun does not refer to ALAN3AAM. Feminine pronoun Ha refers to ALAN3AAM. You are correct that masculine pronoun refers to Milk singular masculine object.
It is exactly according to grammar of Arabic. , I will explain it later. Let me tell you that the traditional as well as the Modern translators have little cared for the grammar rules. They just follow old translations by merely substituting a word with some synonym here and there.
I hope you had given a little thouht to my post wherein I gave example of 22 amino acids. Now I give you another similarity
The "physiology" of translation of a discourse/text is like human physiology digestive system. During digestion two main processes occur at the same time
Mechanical Digestion larger pieces of food get broken down into smaller pieces by tearing, slicing, churning and mixing while being prepared for chemical digestion. Mechanical digestion starts in the mouth and continues into the stomach.
Chemical Digestion several different enzymes break down macromolecules into smaller molecules that can be more efficiently absorbed. Chemical digestion starts with saliva and continues into the intestines.
A dollop of food put in the mouth can be equated to a sentence in a discourse. The objective of digestion is to acquire necessary nutrients and energy for sustaining the life. The objective of translation of Grand Qur'aan is to acquire guidance embedded in its sentences for living an upright life which will ensure pleasurable continuance of life for ever.
Mechanical Digestion is like parsing the sentence, breaking it down into pieces of smallest grammatical unit parts of speech and morphological structures; segregation of phrases.
Chemical Digestion is like syntactical parsing of the sentences wherein the role and function of each grammatical unit of the sentence is determined in relation to other elements of the sentence. This process yields the semantic information embedded in the sentence. Application of this process upon the entire discourse will provide all the necessary ingredients for sustaining life as the digestive system eventually provides all the amino acids, sugars, fatty acids and glycerol.
A sentence is the part of a speech or a written discourse that has a complete and independent meaning. Sentence segmentation refers to identifying sentences in a text. The process of sentence segmentation is a basic step for discourse analysis because text stream need to be separated into coherent sentences in order to enable effective analysis for information retrieval, summarization, understanding and translation.
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You are partially correct that masculine pronoun does not refer to ALAN3AAM. Feminine pronoun Ha refers to ALAN3AAM. You are correct that masculine pronoun refers to Milk singular masculine object.
Salaam,
If I'm partially right then I like to know on what I'm wrong.
It is exactly according to grammar of Arabic. , I will explain it later. Let me tell you that the traditional as well as the Modern translators have little cared for the grammar rules. They just follow old translations by merely substituting a word with some synonym here and there.
I hope you had given a little thouht to my post wherein I gave example of 22 amino acids. Now I give you another similarity
GREEN To be honest I don't know anything on amino acids, I don't even know what they are.
The "physiology" of translation of a discourse/text is like human physiology digestive system. During digestion two main processes occur at the same time
Mechanical Digestion larger pieces of food get broken down into smaller pieces by tearing, slicing, churning and mixing while being prepared for chemical digestion. Mechanical digestion starts in the mouth and continues into the stomach.
Chemical Digestion several different enzymes break down macromolecules into smaller molecules that can be more efficiently absorbed. Chemical digestion starts with saliva and continues into the intestines.
A dollop of food put in the mouth can be equated to a sentence in a discourse. The objective of digestion is to acquire necessary nutrients and energy for sustaining the life. The objective of translation of Grand Qur'aan is to acquire guidance embedded in its sentences for living an upright life which will ensure pleasurable continuance of life for ever.
Mechanical Digestion is like parsing the sentence, breaking it down into pieces of smallest grammatical unit parts of speech and morphological structures; segregation of phrases.
Chemical Digestion is like syntactical parsing of the sentences wherein the role and function of each grammatical unit of the sentence is determined in relation to other elements of the sentence. This process yields the semantic information embedded in the sentence. Application of this process upon the entire discourse will provide all the necessary ingredients for sustaining life as the digestive system eventually provides all the amino acids, sugars, fatty acids and glycerol.
A sentence is the part of a speech or a written discourse that has a complete and independent meaning. Sentence segmentation refers to identifying sentences in a text. The process of sentence segmentation is a basic step for discourse analysis because text stream need to be separated into coherent sentences in order to enable effective analysis for information retrieval, summarization, understanding and translation.
Thank you for your thoughts!!!
Salaam,
Bender -
Salam Bender,
Would you like to quote one verse which contradicts the Arabic school grammar specifically referring its rule?
Salaam,
BLUE I don't know any grammar rule by it's arabic or english name, so no I can not do that. But I can give you a looooooooooooooot of verses which I am sure are going against arabic school grammar.
You have to know that there was no grammar book included with the Quran. Grammar rules are man made not from Allah. This book is NOT made to fit arabic school grammar, It has it's own rules, structures, patterns, spelling etc etc etc independent from any human intervention.
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace,
You must also consider the possibility that the book called Quran had been laying forgotten for extensive years and the language forgotten to some extent and also that there was no standard of written language at the time. Muhammad (or what his name was) must have understood what he wrote, any person would write it the way he writes/speaks a language). Then someone retook its interpretation and could not really understand what it, ie. misinterpreted a lot and added diacritical marks to the best of their ability to preserve what they believed was right and also added verse numbers which often cut the sentences in the middle of clauses (which is a strong reason to suspect that they did not fully comprehend what they read).
When people came closer to each other with modern institutions standards became more common and a more collective way of using language in written form.
And if you deliberately take the interpretation of a word in any direction away from how it once was interpreted then you can cause it to 1000 years later connote an entirely different thing. It is clear that the words of Quran are deliberately used to justify a lot of senseless rituals and practices despite that no connotation can support it. With it you get praying birds and all matter of ridiculous inconsistencies. But most people just put the blind eye towards it and continue because to them the traditional interpretation is never wrong (they think) no matter how lame it sounds. They contradict themselves when they say to you "So you believe that billions of Muslims do wrong?" when God said "If you obey most people on Earth they will lead you astray because they listen to conjecture and only guess". Salat is such phenomenon, never criticized if it means prayer or not. Some have said it connotes connection/bond/tie but yet insist on prayer and also while there is a clear word that means pray/request/call/summon/implore that is "duwa/duah" and which is circumstantial and not timed. On the other hand there is glorification in the morning and evening.
And repeating the same passages, seven ones, several times is as if God will hear them better due to their many words and read chapters with 'say' commands directed towards people who do not believe and who do not hear the prayer anyways.
Have faith
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Peace --
2191 and the one guarding private part hers so blew we in her (i.e. Mary) from spirit ours and we made her and son hers sign to the creations
6612 and Mary daughter Imran the one guarding private part hers so blew we in him (i.e. Imran) from spirit ours and truthful she in words lord hers and written his and was (f/s) from the devout
Salaam brother,
Thank you for your contribution.
But I am sorry to disagree with your understanding of 6612. I don't understand how Imran came in all of a sudden. The part of that aayat before is about Maryam and the part after that also referring to her.There might be something we are missing, inshaAllah we will come to know when Allah wants us to know.
Salaam brother MoF,
Thank you.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam,
You don't have to be sorry
Salaam brother,
Thank you.
No I do not think that's the correct question. It is clear that the ayaat talks about ALAN3AAM.
The HAA and HI are not referring to ALAN3AAM but to MIMMA FI BOTUN.
I know it's hard to understand because it goes against traditional grammar, but give it a try to understand what I am saying.Well, can you please tell me what are the two things in BUTOON that HAA and HI is referring to?
From your understanding it seems to me when RASOOLI-HI is used that means, that HI is referring to Rasool and not Allah? hmmMay Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Would you like to quote one verse which contradicts the Arabic school grammar specifically referring its rule?
Salaam,
BLUE I don't know any grammar rule by it's arabic or english name, so no I can not do that. But I can give you a looooooooooooooot of verses which I am sure are going against arabic school grammar.
Please reflect what have you written. You confess you don't klnow grammar rule but claim you can show verses which are going against arabic school grammar.
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Three facts are mentioned in the second complex sentence about the Milk of herbivore mammals
A part of its composition is within its-Milk's "stomachs";
It is in the state central to broken down food and that of blood;It acts for the drinkers like that which enters into the body easily.
Grand Qur'aan picturesquely portrays the Mammal's milk
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Salaam brother,
Thank you.
Well, can you please tell me what are the two things in BUTOON that HAA and HI is referring to?
Salaam,
See my first post.
From your understanding it seems to me when RASOOLI-HI is used that means, that HI is referring to Rasool and not Allah? hmm
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanNo there is a differnce in the structure. Maybe if you can quote the verse you have in mind I can try to show you the difference.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
Bender -
Salaam,
BLUE I don't know any grammar rule by it's arabic or english name, so no I can not do that. But I can give you a looooooooooooooot of verses which I am sure are going against arabic school grammar.
Please reflect what have you written. You confess you don't klnow grammar rule but claim you can show verses which are going against arabic school grammar.
Salaam,
Yes I know what I have written. I indeed have almost zero arabic school grammar knowledge and zero knowledge about their naming but for sure I can give you a looooooooooooooooooooooooooot of verses which go against arabic school grammar.
So how do I know? Simply because translators are not consequent. like the link you gaveThe next verbal complex informative sentence in both the above quoted Ayahs restricts the area of research to one aspect disclosing fundamental information/premises for research
Please observe that the only difference between these two sentences is that of the gender of Suffixed Pronoun in the Possessive Phrases. The first Possessive Phrase has third person, singular, masculine possessive pronoun while in the second has third person, singular, feminine pronoun. In this sentence the feminine pronoun refers back to broken plural feminine noun which is grammatically singular; and the Prepositional phrase coupled with Possessive Phrase "Within the bellies of these female mammals".
according to you "almost all the translators did the same error of referring the singular masculine pronoun to the plural feminine mammals mentioned in the earlier sentence"
BUT your approach is not consequent either, you treat the same structures different. One time to ALAN3AAM and the other verse to FIBUTUUNIHI while they are of the same exact structure.
This means your grammar rules have no explanation for this.They BOTH refer to MIMMA FI BUTUN. ONLY what is in the BUTON is different in both verses, and that why the difference in HI and HAA.
Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
Yes I know what I have written. I indeed have almost zero arabic school grammar knowledge and zero knowledge about their naming but for sure I can give you a looooooooooooooooooooooooooot of verses which go against arabic school grammar.
So how do I know? Simply because translators are not consequent. like the link you gaveThe next verbal complex informative sentence in both the above quoted Ayahs restricts the area of research to one aspect disclosing fundamental information/premises for research
Please observe that the only difference between these two sentences is that of the gender of Suffixed Pronoun in the Possessive Phrases. The first Possessive Phrase has third person, singular, masculine possessive pronoun while in the second has third person, singular, feminine pronoun. In this sentence the feminine pronoun refers back to broken plural feminine noun which is grammatically singular; and the Prepositional phrase coupled with Possessive Phrase "Within the bellies of these female mammals".
according to you "almost all the translators did the same error of referring the singular masculine pronoun to the plural feminine mammals mentioned in the earlier sentence"
BUT your approach is not consequent either, you treat the same structures different. One time to ALAN3AAM and the other verse to FIBUTUUNIHI while they are of the same exact structure.
This means your grammar rules have no explanation for this.They BOTH refer to MIMMA FI BUTUN. ONLY what is in the BUTON is different in both verses, and that why the difference in HI and HAA.
Salaam,
BenderYou cannot understand a single verse of Qur'aan except by your guesses, unless you know that every language is governed by rules.
Like English, Arabic has also four types of sentences. First thing is segmentation of sentences in the discourse. You must know the start and end of the sentence, otherwise, you will keep conjecturing.
The error I pointed out is that of treating the above quoted four words as two equivalent sentences whereas both are not the same. The first four words comprise a complete and independent sentence and its Possessive Pronoun femine refers back to feminine mammals. A pronoun always refer to a known entity. Except human females, Ha is used both for a singular feminine and plural feminine.
The other four words are part of a complex sentence with additional dependant clauses which has a disambiguation noun masculine singular to clarify the masculine pronoun.
English and Arabic possessive phrase are almost identical. means "the bellies, hidden pockets of him" and means the bellies, hidden pockets of her-those females".
Like proteins, a sentence can be very short in length and very long.
Milk has fat globules, and globules are what is signified by Arabic word . And signifies mammary glands of those female mammals.
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You cannot understand a single verse of Qur'aan except by your guesses, unless you know that every language is governed by rules.
Salaam,
Sure every language has it own rules, so is the language of The Quran, and it's rules are not described in your grammar book.
And of course I am only guessing, just like you and everyone else in this world.
Like English, Arabic has also four types of sentences. First thing is segmentation of sentences in the discourse. You must know the start and end of the sentence, otherwise, you will keep conjecturing.
I already gave you how I handle the WAW and I use this method for ALL verses.
You use your method only for some verses. The part you gave as an independent sentence, I have given you my reasons why it can never be independent. You did not comment on that, to show me wrong.
Besides that your method is not consistent it has I believe not even a rule in your grammar books.
If I am wrong on this then please provide me with the grammar rule which shows me when to use WAW as a start of a sentence and where not.The error I pointed out is that of treating the above quoted four words as two equivalent sentences whereas both are not the same. The first four words comprise a complete and independent sentence and its Possessive Pronoun femine refers back to feminine mammals. A pronoun always refer to a known entity. Except human females, Ha is used both for a singular feminine and plural feminine.
The other four words are part of a complex sentence with additional dependant clauses which has a disambiguation noun masculine singular to clarify the masculine pronoun.
NO In BOTH verses the 4 words (nusqeekum mimma fee butooniha/hi ) are NOT independent sentences, they have no meaning without the first part of the verse (Wainna lakum fee alanAAami laAAibratan). They are subjected to the first part.
AND in both verses the last parts after (nusqeekum mimma fee butooniha/hi ) are not independent sentences they have no meaning without the 4 words.English and Arabic possessive phrase are almost identical. means "the bellies, hidden pockets of him" and means the bellies, hidden pockets of her-those females".
Like proteins, a sentence can be very short in length and very long.
Milk has fat globules, and globules are what is signified by Arabic word . And signifies mammary glands of those female mammals.
Can you please answer this question.
If we had this sentenceWainna lakum fee alanAAami laAAibratan nusqeekum mimma fee butooniHA min bayni farthin wadamin labanan khalisan saighan lilshsharibeena
And I would ask you to what the red HA is referring to, then what would be your answer? Please answer this according to your grammar rules.
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace --
2191 and the one guarding private part hers so blew we in her (i.e. Mary) from spirit ours and we made her and son hers sign to the creations
6612 and Mary daughter Imran the one guarding private part hers so blew we in him (i.e. Imran) from spirit ours and truthful she in words lord hers and written his and was (f/s) from the devout
fi ha - fi Maryam
fi hi - fi farj Maryam
Salaam
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Can you please answer this question.
If we had this sentenceWainna lakum fee alanAAami laAAibratan nusqeekum mimma fee butooniHA min bayni farthin wadamin labanan khalisan saighan lilshsharibeena
We do not have this sentence. You work on guesses, not concrete sentences of Qur'aan. This sentence made by you suffers vagauness.
Meanings are not only in words but in grammar too, every case ending has meanings.Like English, Arabic has also four types of sentences. First thing is segmentation of sentences in the discourse. You must know the start and end of the sentence, otherwise, you will keep conjecturing.
I already gave you how I handle the WAW and I use this method for ALL verses.
You use your method only for some verses. The part you gave as an independent sentence, I have given you my reasons why it can never be independent. You did not comment on that, to show me wrong.Waw is used both for conjunction in compound sentences, and in circumstantial clause of a complex sentence; and inititation of a sentence.
In compound sentences with Waw the elements of first sentence need not be reiterated; the purpose of conjunction is economy of words. Compound sentence has two independent clauses/sentences which are joined by conjunction to save repetition of words. Therefore, Arabic sentence is a new independent sentence and not a dependent clause. -
Wainna lakum fee alanAAami laAAibratan nusqeekum mimma fee butooniHA min bayni farthin wadamin labanan khalisan saighan lilshsharibeena
After butooniHA if you place Howa or Innahu the sentence will be correct grammatically. And Labanan in accusative case will clarify-disambiguate that what is in butooniHA is referring to Milk.
But this sentence has no information about globules in the Milk. That is why two different sentences are in Qur'aan.
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We do not have this sentence. You work on guesses, not concrete sentences of Qur'aan. This sentence made by you suffers vagauness.
Meanings are not only in words but in grammar too, every case ending has meanings.After butooniHA if you place Howa or Innahu the sentence will be correct grammatically. And Labanan in accusative case will clarify-disambiguate that what is in butooniHA is referring to Milk.
But this sentence has no information about globules in the Milk. That is why two different sentences are in Qur'aan.
Salaam,
I know we do not have this sentence in the Quran, I was just wondering how you would handle it with your Arabic grammar rules.
Yesterday I gave this sentence to one who has a Phd in Arabic literature and writes for many newspapers column and he answered me, that the sentence was perfect Arabic, according to the known Arabic grammar rules, and the HA was according him referring to ALAN3AAM. When I gave him the real verse, he said that both interpretation where good depends how one handles the word ALAN3AAM.
I wonder who's grammar rules are the correct ones?
Waw is used both for conjunction in compound sentences, and in circumstantial clause of a complex sentence; and inititation of a sentence.
In compound sentences with Waw the elements of first sentence need not be reiterated; the purpose of conjunction is economy of words. Compound sentence has two independent clauses/sentences which are joined by conjunction to save repetition of words. Therefore, Arabic sentence is a new independent sentence and not a dependent clause.I did not ask for your interpretation how to handle WAW and for what purposes it is used, I asked for the grammar rule which clarifies for me when we have to take WAW as the beginning of a new sentence and when not.
Salaam,
Bender -
I know we do not have this sentence in the Quran, I was just wondering how you would handle it with your Arabic grammar rules.
Yesterday I gave this sentence to one who has a Phd in Arabic literature and writes for many newspapers column and he answered me, that the sentence was perfect Arabic, according to the known Arabic grammar rules, and the HA was according him referring to ALAN3AAM. When I gave him the real verse, he said that both interpretation where good depends how one handles the word ALAN3AAM.
Please ask this Phd gentleman to give you the break up/parsing of the sentence. The things will become obvious that he is merely depending upon the fake reasoning the earliest exegeses suggested to consider ALAN3AAM as singular masculine and some other fake reasons.
Consult any grammar book, it will relate all the uses of Waw.
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Please ask this Phd gentleman to give you the break up/parsing of the sentence. The things will become obvious that he is merely depending upon the fake reasoning the earliest exegeses suggested to consider ALAN3AAM as singular masculine and some other fake reasons.
Salaam,
BLUE I think you did not read what I wrote "he said that both interpretation where good depends how one handles the word ALAN3AAM".
May I ask what you mean with "earliest exegesis"? Quran or arabic grammar exegesis?
Consult any grammar book, it will relate all the uses of Waw.
I don't have any grammar book.
But I guess you have a lot of grammar books. So please provide us the rule for when we have to take the WAW as beginning of a new sentence and when not according to your grammar books, thanks in advance!!!Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
BLUE I think you did not read what I wrote "he said that both interpretation where good depends how one handles the word ALAN3AAM".
May I ask what you mean with "earliest exegesis"? Quran or arabic grammar exegesis?
I don't have any grammar book.
But I guess you have a lot of grammar books. So please provide us the rule for when we have to take the WAW as beginning of a new sentence and when not according to your grammar books, thanks in advance!!!Salaam,
BenderI pointed out that in the two sentences of two Ayahs of Qur'aan only the Ha refers to Mammals and not masculine pronoun. Masculine pronound does not refer to female mammals.
The sentence you structured was ambiguous and incorrect grammatically. Please check it with Phd gentleman giving him the sentence I modifed.
Please write which sentence he thinks grammatically correct, specifically ask him whether a masculine pronoun can refer to female mammals; has he ever found it in literature.
Liike English conjunction "and" Arabic conjunction Waw have a basic conventional semantic meaning and a list of pragmatic meanings. You can study it in this paper
http//versita.metapress.com/content/w4xm166745229482/fulltext.pdf