Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

There is no contradiction and that is why it is such a scandal. Al-fajr and al-isha does not have to imply contradiction, but it is still a work in progress to decipher it better for a more clear literal quality.

And even if it implies on communion in the morning and evening it is no contradiction because a cleric has a job too.

And in 11114 prayer timing is just an erroneous interpretation based on a mistake of a word. Check my recent post about salat.

Abraham was taught communion of God and not a prayer.

And if you wish to believe in praying birds or dogmatic religion where people are forced to observe contact prayer then do so as long as you do not live out on them because then I will fight you.

Have faith

Scribbler

And if you wish to believe in praying birds

As-salam alaykum, brother.

Why is it hard for you to believe that birds can pray to God?

Gods tells us clearly in 1744 that humans have not been given the capacity to understand the methods of glorification of His other creatures.

1744
The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet ye understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!

Those who believe salat to mean prayer never deny that it is also a form of glorification of God. Therefore, according to 1744, if birds can glorify God, I see no reason to deny that they can also pray to God, but of course we have not been given the capacity to understand it.

Regards.

Man_of_Faith

Peace Scribbler,

It is indeed difficult to see a purpose for a bird to pray. Glorify is another thing, but that is not praying. And birds do not have any reason to pray because they live according to a communion without any consciousness like us with decisions and choices, i.e. they are driven entirely by instincts.

I absolutely see no connection between glorifying God in the morning and evening and ritualistic contact praying.

Besides I have never said that there are no prayers, only that salat is not the correct word. It does not connote on that and fits poorly in the context too. It was just someone who wished to interpret it that way. And I do not think that there are any slavishly timed prayers throughout the day either but these are circumstantial depending on need and moodset. Honoring God can easily be done be upholding the decree and communion through righteous deeds.

Without any intention of disrespect towards your faith, but I think everyone has been fooled and the faith looks mostly like Christianity without the Jesus obsession. The Christians do most of the communion right except excessive glorification and praise to Jesus instead of God (and a bit of conjecture about the details just like Islam).

And "Islam" is very dogmatic with salat meaning contact prayer because people are to be forced to observe it according to passages.

But because salat means unity (communion) of the rightful decree and judgment it means the people are just to stop their atrocities and adhere to the harmonious ways of God. It is to stick together as a unit with salat and not divide into sects.

Have faith I will further my analysis of the related passages.

Have faith

good_logic

Peace Man Of Faith.

So people are forced to observe "salat" if it means contact prayer, but not forced if it means "unity/communion"?

Think brother, you are not making sense!

If God instructs something, people are free to do it or not!!!

Those who force people to do anything are not following Qoran anyway, regardless of what "salat" means.

I am sorry brother, you are not making sense with your explanations? Is anyone clear how to observe salat according to you?

I do not think you are clear yourself?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I am thinking about what I am saying. You know the communion of God everyone adheres to that is not dividing into sects and invent dogmatic and zealous rules like has been done with salat in your case.

To sectarian muslims one does not belong to their sect unless they perform this ritual and other ones. According to them I would not keep communion because I follow this way of not performing this ritual and according to them I divide myself into a sect despite the fact I follow the communion issued by God. I am not certain that you have a clue about what I am saying?

When a person stops following the decree and judgment and restrictions set by God then they will lose communion. I say that one has then broken into a sect. Inventing rules to the command of God is a way of losing communion and failure for purification.

My argument is that salat does not mean contact prayer whatsoever and that I stand by.

And in the narration there is a 'compulsory' comment on keeping salat or be fought. The explanation is quite easy actually. It is by not inventing any rules besides what God has commanded and particularly unrighteous ones and also the opponents of God in the context were dogmatic and zealous about their sectarian ways. God tells them to return to communion instead of acting out in unrighteousness.

Besides, do you think God will hear you because of your many words?

I just sense that the ritual traditional Muslims perform is just a remnant from Paganism. Mumbling long phrases and performing coded movements are very authentic to Pagan ritualism.

So is walking and using an idol to get closer to God. The cubic building in Mecca is a giant idol of the same kind as in Paganism.

And like I say; I do not have faith that birds pray. They follow a communion in formation and glorify God in their way. God programmed their behavior and they just act according to it without any division.

Same for us; we should keep the communion set by God and not question it and start inventing rules never authorized by God and thus perverted what God has said. Salat = contact prayer is just that, not keeping communion, ironically.

Have faith

good_logic

Peace Man Of Faith.

Brother ,you are free to follow /invent what you want.

Good luck to you.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Follow yes; invent no. But you are free to follow millennia long conjecture yourself.

Prove what I have invented that was not part of faith or what I have omitted from the decreed matter? A ritualistic prayer of Pagans and the treatment of a house as idol?

Have faith

good_logic

Peace Man Of Faith.

Please take this constructive conversation as an honest way of giving you another point you are missing.

The salat instituted by God is in fact a great gift from Him. It constitute the nourishment required for the growth and development of our Souls. Without such nourishment, we cannot survive the immense energy associated with God's physical presence on the Day of Judgment. Belief in God does not by itself guarantee our redemption; we must also nourish our souls (6158, 1090-92). Additionally, 1599 states that observing the duties instituted by God is our means of attaining certainty

With respect and friendship I am trying to convey this. Of course you are entitled to ignore it

Also I will leave you to continue your thread without any interruption from me.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

The salat instituted by God is in fact a great gift from Him. It constitute the nourishment required for the growth and development of our Souls. Without such nourishment, we cannot survive the immense energy associated with God's physical presence on the Day of Judgment. Belief in God does not by itself guarantee our redemption; we must also nourish our souls (6158, 1090-92). Additionally, 1599 states that observing the duties instituted by God is our means of attaining certainty

This understanding is correct, but it is just a problem that it is not salat that is it.

Salat is not a ritual as I have said before, it is a phenomenon that is a result of keeping to the decree of God and seeking God's Nearness and Guidance. But if you wish to have faith that God will listen to you because of many words and ritualistic movement in a Pagan-style prayer then feel free to continue, or travel to Mecca to treat a cubic building as an idol. If you saw clearly you would realize it is all an illusion and a Pagan behavior.

1598 So glorify the praise of your Master, and be of those who are dedicated.
1599 And serve your Master until certainty comes to you.

It does not say to follow any rituals, but serve is by acting out according to the decree and judgment of God.

I will continue on the topic of salat from last night, God willing.

Have faith

GODsubmitter

Peace Man Of Faith.

Please take this constructive conversation as an honest way of giving you another point you are missing.

The salat instituted by God is in fact a great gift from Him. It constitute the nourishment required for the growth and development of our Souls. Without such nourishment, we cannot survive the immense energy associated with God's physical presence on the Day of Judgment. Belief in God does not by itself guarantee our redemption; we must also nourish our souls (6158, 1090-92). Additionally, 1599 states that observing the duties instituted by God is our means of attaining certainty

With respect and friendship I am trying to convey this. Of course you are entitled to ignore it

Also I will leave you to continue your thread without any interruption from me.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

I totally agree with this, specially as it is confirmed also by the Messenger of the Covenant, Dr. R. Khalifa, PhD.

Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

But believe in whatever you like then.

muslims

I have not yet read and studies all this, almost 100 verses about salat. . but salat as "unity" fits perfectly well with the main theme of the Quran, "unity in diversity". .

what is the summary of your main conclusion ?

Man_of_Faith

Peace muslims,

I am very surprised if you have faith in this.

My conclusion is that salat does not connote on contact prayer whatsoever. It is a remote claim.

And I have been able to falsify the claim that 11114 refers to prayer timing at all which has been neatly used to argue for these timings inferred by those who adhere to this Pagan influence. And the verse with salat alwusta does also not talk about middle prayer so another instance of nullified prayer timing, and wusta means best according to its base word's occurrence in other contexts.

And do you not deem it strange that, if God had decreed timed prayers, then this was not clear in the narration and all timings in one single passage and with exactly how to perform it in the same context?

Some work remain and that is to find out what God meant in 2458 in terms of salat alfajr and alisha. And I also have no other than highly experimental translations of 443 and 56, and I am quite sure they do not speak of ablution whatsoever.

The final conclusion about the word salat itself is that it means pretty much according to the year 1828 issue of Webster's definition of communion. It means to keep together in the teachings and command of God and not divide into sects. Depending of the form of s -l - w it implies between unite, unity or communion. If you by action do slw then you simply teach about God and bring people to communion. An example is with Zachariah in the alleged temple enclosure.

To please people I have also found for them the word for pray too (duwa), but it does not suffice them obviously. They want timed rituals and many words like their fathers.

And you know that with salat as prayer then birds pray too and Islam is very dogmatic and zealous because the opponents of God are to be fought "until they observe salat". Obviously they are to be fought until the observe the communion by adhering to the system of God to uphold justice and no oppression. But these people I am arguing with here after my work is presented oppose these, to me, logical arguments.

Have faith

muslims

I am very surprised if you have faith in this.

My conclusion is that salat does not connote on contact prayer whatsoever. It is a remote claim.

I did. . .and I don't believe there is contact prayers, and at least it is mutasyaabihat and contradicting many verses from the Quran. . . I've checked almost 95 verses and I believe it does not mean contact prayers. . .however, there are about 5-7 verses left that I'm still studying.

. . .

And I have been able to falsify the claim that 11114 refers to prayer timing at all which has been neatly used to argue for these timings inferred by those who adhere to this Pagan influence.

Agree. . . it have nothing to do with prayer times. The whole context speak about justice and injustice, sectarian, unity and disunity. . .

And if your Lord had wished
He could have made all the people one nation
but they still would have continued to disagree.
11118

and reading the context alone will tell there is something fishy about that verse.

| | 11113 | And do not lean towards those who have wronged else you will incur the Fire; and you will not have besides God any allies, and you will not be victorious. |

| | 11114 | (the story diverted)

The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember. | And hold the contact prayer at two parts of the day, and the near part of the night.

| | 11115 | And be patient, for God does not waste the reward of the good doers. |

Verse 11 is verse 52 in its chronological order.

. . .

And the verse with salat alwusta does also not talk about middle prayer so another instance of nullified prayer timing, and wusta means best according to its base word's occurrence in other contexts.

And do you not deem it strange that, if God had decreed timed prayers, then this was not clear in the narration and all timings in one single passage and with exactly how to perform it in the same context?

Some work remain and that is to find out what God meant in 2458 in terms of salat alfajr and alisha. And I also have no other than highly experimental translations of 443 and 56, and I am quite sure they do not speak of ablution whatsoever.

Agree, I believe that verse has nothing to do at all about salat time, but it is about to act with balance (wusta) to widows after/during divorce. . . not to trouble them etc. . . it has nothing to do with salat time.

| | 2238 | And if you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already set the dowry for them; then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract forgives. And if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. And do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer of what you do. |

| | 2239 | (the story diverted) | Maintain the contact prayers; and the middle contact prayer; and stand for God dutifully.

| | 2240 | (the story diverted) | But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

| | 2241 | And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do with themselves of goodness; and God is Noble, Wise. |

There is something wrong, and we must also realize today's arabic is not the same with quranic arabic, and that the original Arabic script had no dots, short vowels or diacritic marks etc.

http//www.themodernreligion.com/basic/history/q_script_old1.jpg
Sura 27-10

This means every words can be from 30-50 meanings. . . so , it is not conclusive at all to say the verse is about salat when there is clear diversion from the context of the story itself.

. . .

The final conclusion about the word salat itself is that it means pretty much according to the year 1828 issue of Webster's definition of communion. It means to keep together in the teachings and command of God and not divide into sects. Depending of the form of s -l - w it implies between unite, unity or communion. If you by action do slw then you simply teach about God and bring people to communion. An example is with Zachariah in the alleged temple enclosure.

To please people I have also found for them the word for pray too (duwa), but it does not suffice them obviously. They want timed rituals and many words like their fathers.

And you know that with salat as prayer then birds pray too and Islam is very dogmatic and zealous because the opponents of God are to be fought "until they observe salat". Obviously they are to be fought until the observe the communion by adhering to the system of God to uphold justice and no oppression. But these people I am arguing with here after my work is presented oppose these, to me, logical arguments.

Have faith

It is justified. . . .and I also believe salat is referring to the system of unity in diversity. . . and zakat is to strengthen the unity.

For current practices. . .

My Conclusion I considered salat as the mutasyaabihat (allegorical) . . and according to the Quran, I have no duty to obey the rule relating to contact prayers. It is allegorical, there are inconsistency, and the details is not in the Quran . . . Therefore, it is freedom (5.101). . . do if we like, follow whoever we like, and leave if we don't like. . but never make it compulsory or raise any issue that can cause disunity in the Muslim Ummah.

Scribbler

Dear Man of Faith,

Salam alaykum.

You say

And I have been able to falsify the claim that 11114 refers to prayer timing at all which has been neatly used to argue for these timings inferred by those who adhere to this Pagan influence.

Then what does 11114 talk about if it is not about timing? Please provide us your translation using valid source of reference.

And how do you understand or translate 4102?

4102
...salat is on the believers prescribed at fixed times.

You say

And I also have no other than highly experimental translations of 443 and 56, and I am quite sure they do not speak of ablution whatsoever.

With respect, being "quite sure" will not make you successful, dear brother. You must tell us why you do not believe in the traditional understanding of these verses, and then present your translation of those verses by referring to the valid sources you have used to reach your conclusion. Otherwise, with respect, your arguments hold no merit.

Brother good logic had asked you a question. He asked, "So people are forced to observe 'salat' if it means contact prayer, but not forced if it means 'unity/communion'?"

It is a very good question which I feel you have left unanswered in your reply.

Regards.

Zulf

Whatever we may take salat to be, we should not be afraid of venturing away from dogma, although it may seem to be on thin, almost blasphemous, ice. As long as we are sincere in our search, we should just keep our heads cools, ask God for guidance, and see where things lead. Nobody is obligated to follow or agree to anything, so there is no harm in experimenting, as long as it is with good intentions. Sticking with tradition though is directly harmful, as pointed out by the quran. So, everyone, just keep calm and keep exploring, with a sincere heart. God is our witness at all times.

Also, I wonder what people mean when they say that salat is our nourishment. What does this mean? How is is nourishment? Nourishment in what sense? Sounds good, but too philosophical.

Peace

Mazhar

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00024.%20Salat%20Suad%20Lam%20Waw/25.gif It is derived from Root . Basic perception infolded is to praise and magnify; express commendation, or wish blessings upon the one who is revered; or to appreciate someone. Ibn Faris in his classical Lexicon had quoted a verse of a poem of pre-Qur'aan period to highlight one aspect of this Root regards invoking blessings

Learned Professor Toshihiko Izutsu in his book "God and Man in the Qur'aan" quoted it in his study on the concept of this Root and term http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00024.%20Salat%20Suad%20Lam%20Waw/25.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00024.%20Salat%20Suad%20Lam%20Waw/024.Sa2.gif

Reflect
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/008.%20A8.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.103.gif

Time Bound Protocol of Servitude and Allegiance The Key of the door of success

Man_of_Faith

Peace Mazhar,

Learned Professor Toshihiko Izutsu in his book "God and Man in the Qur'aan" quoted it in his study on the concept of this Root and term

Sorry. I give absolutely no merit to these people.

It is derived from Root . Basic perception infolded is to praise and magnify; express commendation, or wish blessings upon the one who is revered; or to appreciate someone. Ibn Faris in his classical Lexicon had quoted a verse of a poem of pre-Qur'aan period to highlight one aspect of this Root regards invoking blessings

This understanding does still not make salat into a ritual such as the one that you adhere to. The sarcastic thought is that you only give fuel to my fire. You use these innocent narrations to justify a Pagan ritual.

Basic perception infolded is to praise and magnify; express commendation, or wish blessings upon the one who is revered; or to appreciate someone

Yes. And you do this by keeping the salat and assisting in its establishment. If you lose salat then you no longer show any any of it but belong to those who divided into sects.

Even if the poem would be before the advent of the book generally called Qur'an it does not give any strength to the understanding of salat as a "contact prayer" or ritualistic behavior. The ironical is that your reference actually gives strength to my arguments and I need to thank you for helping me. If you keep communion then you are with God and also have assistance from The Master.

I will, God willing, now focus on answering the questions you ask me just to try me. Do you think I am stupid as to see you are just wishing to see me fail. Instead of trying to look at the word yourselves with critical eyes instead of adhering blindly to traditional thinking.

EDIT
Ibn Faris in his classical Lexicon

So you base this understanding on someone who died a few hundred years after the advent of Qur'an? He must have lived during the 10th century and it gives absolutely no merit to the interpretation of Qur'an.

Have faith

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum.

Thanks to Mazhar for sharing the information about the meaning of the term salat. I also believe "praise and magnify; express commendation, or wish blessings" etc. are much closer to the appropriate meaning of "salat" than "unity / union / communion".

Brother MoF may not give any merit to linguists / dictionaries / lexicons.. that is his choice; but for me a language - any language - develops based on the people who speak / use the language and opinion of linguists / dictionaries / lexicons are legitimate tools for studying any language.

Rather I give absolutely no merit to "trial-and-error" as a method of finding the meanings of Arabic terms.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Man_of_Faith

Peace Scribbler,

You say

And I have been able to falsify the claim that 11114 refers to prayer timing at all which has been neatly used to argue for these timings inferred by those who adhere to this Pagan influence.

Then what does 11114 talk about if it is not about timing? Please provide us your translation using valid source of reference.

11114 speaks of keeping your focus on communion. I have explained it in past posts loosely, but I can get into the details if you are that argumentative.

Let me break the original Arabic of 11114 into an analysis.

Word by word translation Keep al-salat gazes intentions the day and (at) approach (of) the night indeed the good remove(s) the bad. This is a regard to those who pay attention.

Green Obviously the word cannot be literally used in the context, so you have to paraphrase it. If you look at my work below with other passages involving taraf you can see that the word implies on intention (or similar).

Check the contextual use of the word taraf from a valid source of information (should be because they are sectarians)

Noun

If you pardon me for not involving the Arabic in this translation where taraf is used as (part) in the passage and see how lame the translation is

1340 And if We show you some of what We promise them, or We terminate your life, then you are only to deliver while for Us is the reckoning.
1341 Do they not see that We come to the land and reduce it from its ends intentions? And God gives judgment and there is none to override His judgment. And He is swift to reckoning.
1342 And those before them had schemed, but to God is all scheming. He knows what every soul earns and the opponents will come to know to whom is the better abode.
1343 And those who oppose say ?You are not a messenger.? Say ?God is enough as a witness between me and you; the One who has the knowledge of the Book.?

The word is also used in this weirdly translated narration also trying to justify timed rituals

20124 ?And whoever turns away from My remembrance regard, then he will have a miserable life, and We will raise him blind on the Day of Resurrection.?
20125 He said ?My Master, you have raised me blind while I used to be able to see??
20126 He said ?It was the same when Our revelations came to you, you forgot them, and similarly today you will be forgotten.?
20127 And it is such that We recompense he who transgresses, and did not have faith in the revelations of his Master. And the retribution of the Hereafter is more severe and more lasting..
20128 Is it not a guide to them how many generations We had destroyed before them, which they are walking now in their assemblies? In that are signs for the people of understanding...
20129 ...and had it not been for a word already given by your Master, they would have been held to account immediately...
20130 ...so be patient to what they are saying and glorify with praise (of) your Master before when (you) approach the rising of the sun, and at (your) approach (of) its setting, and at the coming of the night you shall glorify and at parts with intentions of the day perhaps you may be content...
20131 ...and do not crave with your eyes what We have bestowed upon some couples from them; the flower of the worldly life; so as to test them in it; and the provision of your Master is better and more lasting...
20132 ...and instruct your family to the contact prayer communion and be patient for it. We do not ask you for provision, for We provide for you and the ending will be for righteousness.
20133 And they said ?If only he would bring us a sign from his Master!? Did not proof come to them from what is in the previous scripts?
20134 And if We had destroyed them with a retribution before this, they would have said ?Our Master, if only You had sent us a messenger so we could follow Your revelations before we are humiliated and shamed!?
20135 Say ?All are waiting, so wait, and you will come to know who are the people upon the even path and who are guided.?

Ritualistic prayer does not suit the context whatsoever.

Green Do not be jealous and keep to your deeds of righteousness.
Blue Ironically it can be said that God does not need your ritualistic prayer but God is the One that provides everything for you.
Purple The translation is an experimental one, but not based upon nothing. I will declare what I was thinking

The triliteral root qf b lm ( &#1604 occurs 294 times in the Quran, in 13 derived forms

You can read why I question the word's usage in this verse based on what is found in http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qbl#%28201308%29

As a summary of my observation, 20130 speaks of keeping God in your mind throughout the day. Obviously my translation is as wacko as the traditional one because it demands much work to properly decipher after much falsehood is there in the understanding. I had no need to try to translate that one because 11114 was the related one to the question, but I just wanted to show you another instance.

Here is the last occurrence which I will use to nullify the claim about taraf

2142 Say ?Who can protect you during the night and the day from the Almighty?? No, they are turning away from the remembrance regard for their Master...
2143 ...or do they have gods that will protect them from Us? They cannot help themselves, nor can they be protected from Us.
2144 It was Us who gave luxury to these and their fathers, until they grew old with age. Do they not see that We come to the land and reduce it from its edges intentions? Will they be able to win?
2145 Say ?I am merely warning you with the inspiration.? But the deaf do not hear the call when they are being warned.

Green The traditional translation does not make sense, however when you equalize every occurence of the word throughout the book called Qur'an then the word suddenly makes sense in the narration.

Let us check when the word is used for gazes and see how truthful it is then

1443 They will approach with their heads bowed, and their eyes will not blink (no focus), and their hearts will be void.
2740 And one who had knowledge from the Book said ?I will bring it to you before you blink (can react).? So when he saw it resting before him, he said ?This is from the grace of my Lord, so that He tests me whether I am thankful or whether I reject. As for he who is thankful, he is thankful for himself, and as for he who rejects, then my Lord is Rich, Bountiful.?

3747 There is no bitterness therein, nor will they tire from it.
3748 And with them are those with a modest gaze intention with lovely eyes.
3749 They are like fragile eggs.

3850 Gardens of delight, whose gates will be open for them.
3851 Reclining therein, they will be invited to many fruits and drinks.
3852 And with them are those with a modest gaze intention, mature in age.
3853 This is what you have been promised for the Day of Reckoning.
3854 Such is Our provisions, it does not run out.

4244 And whoever God sends astray will not have any ally after Him. And you will see the transgressors, when they see the retribution, saying ?Is there any way we can go back??...
4245 ...and you will see them being displayed to it in fearful humiliation and looking intending to avoid showing. And those who believed will say ?The losers are those who lost their souls and their families on the Day of Resurrection. The transgressors will be in a lasting retribution.?
4246 And they had no allies to help them against God. And whoever God misguides will never find the way.

5554 While reclining upon furnishings lined with satin, the fruits of the two gardens are within reach.
5555 So which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?
5556 In them are those with a modest gaze intention untouched before by any man or Jinn.
5557 So which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?
5558 They look like rubies and coral.
5559 So which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?

They did not fall to people who just conjecture about the faith. Like in this example

6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

So if you buy my elaboration done honestly in analyzing the passages is up to you, but do not come and say that my choice of translation is not viable. I think that the book called Qur'an was interpreted by a group of wannabe fools who could not understand a thing.

And then I can come 1000 years later and just crush their delusions of grandeur, because they are not serving The Master, our God.

Continue to believe in salat as a ritualistic and timed mess or do like I have proposed is up to you, but do not come here and tell that I am wrong.

So what is the next question that you asked? I will reply in another post and God willing I can give a viable explanation there too. Do not forget I am just a human being though and I cannot "miraculously" decipher a passage without the intervention by God. The corruption is severe in the book called Qur'an and sometimes it does not even portray half of what the original language wanted to convey.

Even without interpreting what is written we can exclude Pagan rituals from the schedule because how logical and sane does it sound to begin with? I only do this to attempt to help lost souls and there is no need for me to do this for myself. I can just read a Gospel testimony of the Bible and know the decree (al-ketaab) inside out.

So 11114 and 20130 are completely removed from salat timing schedule so which are left? 2458 oh yes, I will need to move unto that one as well. We still need to approach the day keeping the communion or when we retreat for the day or come back from taking a break, so timing or not it does not justify a timed ritual.

Besides; it is you who have to prove to me, by the way, that it means timed ritual. I have no need to prove to you about anything, but I have done so anyway. God is the guide and teacher.

Have faith