Significance of alef in بِاسمِ
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bkanwar2 -
So when Quran Says
What verse(s) is this?
I am trying to understand your explanation of our role as bondsman/surety bond which required some research on my part (http//www.sba.gov/content/surety-bonds-basics)
I understand there are 3 parties to a transaction involving a surety bond
- The obligee
- The principal
- The bondsman
The obligee (the one who an obligation is owed to) one who wants to ensure that someone he has a contract with (i.e. the principal) will fulfill their contractual obligations to him.
The obligee, in order to ensure they get what they have contracted for, requires the principal to provide a surety bond by a bondsman.
The surety bond is a pledge from the bondsman stating that if the principal defaults on the contract, the bondsman will find a substitute to fulfill the contractual obligations of the principal... and if this is not possible, the bondsman will compensate the obligee if the contractual obligations cannot be fulfilled for some reason (e.g. by a certain deadline).
Are my definitions above in alignment with yours? If so, can you tell me who is playing what role in your explanation? I'm sorry, but it is unclear to me.
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Good work Samir,
What you have come up is in terms of financial transections.
In purely legal terms. There is an Obligee, that has certain obligations to system. However, to set him free he needs a surety bond. The surety bond woes to fulfill Obligee obligations to the system, if obligee will not.
Keeping the above in mind. Let us replace Obligee, with concept of Rabb meaning "the sustaniner, maintainer, accomplish and foster" as his primary obligation. Now us human as his surety bond would be required to fulfill his this obligation to his system. Where ever, there appears a lack of this obligation being fulfilled. Please remember he is Rabb period for everybody and everything.
Furthermore he is identified right at start Rabb of all disciplines of Knowledge.
Therefore, humans as his surety bond are suppose to be Rabb of all disciplines on Knowledge.
If we just understand this much and practically adopt, our problems will start to evaporate. Don't you think?
Regards
Sorry Verse is 1930
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Thanks bkanwar2-
Sorry, but I'm still not following.
What you have come up is in terms of financial transections.
This leads me to suspect that you want me to ignore the definitions I have provided and use different definitions, maybe ones that you are providing?
Note I will from now on refer to the definitions I have provided above as "my definitions" even though they are merely my understanding of the definitions provided by the website link I posted. "My definitions" are in contrast to my understanding of "your definitions" in my attempt to understand what you are saying
In my definition, the Obligee is the one who RECEIVES what is provided from the Principal (or in the case of Principal's default, from the Bondsman or from a substitute provided by the Bondsman)
In your definition, the Obligee (i.e. God) is the one who is obligated to PROVIDE (which is the role of the Principal/Bondsman in my definition).
I understand you to say that when God does not provide (for whatever reason), that the obligation falls upon us since we are the Bondsmen.
If I am correctly understanding what you are saying, then it seems to me that according to my definitions
Obligee, = the one who is to RECEIVE that which is supposed to be provided by contract = mankind
Principal, = the one under contract to PROVIDE to the Obligee (i.e. mankind) = God
Bondsmen, = those who will make sure that the Obligee receives what he is under contract to receive should the Principal not Provide per the contract again, = mankind.
This is what I understand you to be saying. Please clarify where I have made a mistake. Thanks--
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Samir every language's words have some basic meaning/concept . That is where one needs to start.
One of the main and basic meaning of English word "Bondsman" is "Someone who signs a bond that states that they have taken responsibility for someone else's obligations".
Hope this helps. Problem with all of us is that there are so many preconceived concepts ingrained into us. This impedes the new ones.
However, to understand Quran fundamental concept is the meaning of Allah as "one who is not at all deity for worship".
Regards,
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Salamun Alaikum.
The above theological standpoint is interesting. But I am curious to know how brother bkanwar would translate / interpret the word "Millat" as in Millat-i-Ibrahim found in Al-Qur'an 2130?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanSalam brother, this needs work. Millat traditional account says this words root is Miim-Lam-Lam. It could be Miim-Lam-Ta.
However, both roots do not even have a meanings that come close to meaning of Religion, Deen, Creed, People etc.
Please look up both roots in Lane.
Whatever, people of past did to the meaning Quran, is in front of us. But don't you think all of us are equal culpurits by not realizing despite example after example that current quranic translation accepted by default as the real Quran by all is totally wrong.
Worse are those who not only do not realize it; but keep hindering any such efforts of creating mass awareness due their egos, close mindedness and fear of loss of money and power of suppressing other fellow humans.
Regards
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Salam brother, this needs work. Millat traditional account says this words root is Miim-Lam-Lam. It could be Miim-Lam-Ta.
However, both roots do not even have a meanings that come close to meaning of Religion, Deen, Creed, People etc.
Please look up both roots in Lane.
Salamun Alaika brother.
This is what I get in Lane for millat (ٌ
A religion; (S, Msb, K a way of belief and practice in respect of religion. (T, &c.) -b2- See 8.
An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863.(Ref http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text;jsessionid=DC225345F50768B34BFE479A2D3BE695?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2002.02.0046%3Aroot%3Dml%3Aentry%3Dmil%7EapN)
If you are referring to some other entry kindly quote.
If you (or anyone for that matter) can prove or show that the traditional interpretation of a specific word or term in Qur'an is different from what the literal meaning of the word is supposed to be, or what the root of the word suggest - as per the usage in Arabic language, I am 100% open to listen and consider. So, please bring on your evidences and enlighten us.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam Brother, it seems like you are intrested in learning and not here to defend held belief.
There is a method to study Lane, which he has described well in preface.
This root Miim-Lam-Lam happens to be in suppliment which was compiled by his Nephew Stanley Poole after his death. Hence, is not as comprehensive as the portion compiled by Lane himself.
He starts of with most common and accepted root meanings first, then goes on to give all meanings. Please remember Quran was written first with out any lexicons. The lexicons were completed until after the current translation Quran was already done and which is accepted by default as real Quran. Therefore, most meanings used in current translation are there in the lexicon.
Here is the first page from Lane for this root followed by next and final. Do you find any meanings coming close to Religion etc in the begining?
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000276.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000277.pdfRegards
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Salam brother - and thanks for the excerpts from Lane.
I believe you are refering to the following meanings
Mallah-He put it (namely bread, or fleshmeat,) into hot ashes, .
OR, He sewed, or tacked, the garment, or piece of cloth, previously to the sewing.
Maliltu-I was averse from it; loathed it; was disgusted by it, with it, or at it; turned away from it with disgust.I agree that these meanings do not seem to be connected to "Millat = religion", but none of these meanings remotely fits the usage of the term "Millat" in Qur'an. Some examples given below
2120 Neither the yahud (i.e. repenters) nor the nasara (i.e. helpers) will ever be satisfied with you until you follow their religion (millatahum). Say, ?Indeed it is the guidance of Allah is the guidance.? But if you follow their fancies after which has come to you of the knowledge - there will be no guardian for you against Allah, nor (any) helper.
... ...
2130 And who will opt out of the religion (millati) of Abraham except who fools his (own) soul? And certainly We have chosen him in the world and indeed, in the hereafter, he is surely amongst the (ones acting) appropriately.
... ...
6161 Say, ?Indeed me ? my Master has guided me to a straight route ? an established resolution (deenan) ? the religion (millati) of Abraham, the precise ? and he did not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Allah).?
(My personal translations, cross-checking is recommended)
Different words coming from the same root having totally different meaning is not at all uncommon in Arabic. So, unless someone comes up with a hypothesis why some other root meaing of the term "millat" is preferable over "religion" for understanding the Qur'an - I am going with the meaning of "religion". But good-luck with your research. I'll be curious to see what you eventually come up with.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Best regards,
Arman -
Salam Arman-
I'm curious whether this is also the case within the Quran?
Salamun Alaikum.
Yes, I believe it is. Take for example the root ayn jm lm. Most of the words coming from this root mean "to hasten or to hurry" - with the exception of the word ij'l (ل which means "calf".
ref http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Ejl#(251
There should be numerous other examples - I'm just citing one which is coming off my head.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Arman - thanks for the example.
It seems (at least in this example) that the part of speech is very relevant. For the derived words meaning "calf", the spelling in each case is exclusive (i.e. for each spelling, the part of speech is noun only, and the meaning is "calf" only).
I'm wondering whether there are words in the Quran where the meaning is different for the same spelling/part of speech...?
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Arman - thanks for the example.
It seems (at least in this example) that the part of speech is very relevant. For the derived words meaning "calf", the spelling in each case is exclusive (i.e. for each spelling, the part of speech is noun only, and the meaning is "calf" only).
I'm wondering whether there are words in the Quran where the meaning is different for the same spelling/part of speech...?
In the specific example the term ajal (ل is also a noun (same part of speech) and spelling is also similar ignoring the pronounciation marks.
However, the original question was whether all the words from same root must share similar meaning. We were specifically looking at the word "Millat" - and it was argued that the meaning of other words of same root (e.g. mallah, maliltu) having a different meaning, it is unlikely that millat would mean "religion". To establish such a hypothesis we need to show that all words derived from the same root - irrespective of spelling - must share similar meanings.
Your question "whether there are words in the Quran where the meaning is different for the same spelling/part of speech...?" is a totally different/new question. Per my understanding the answer is also "yes". For example, the word aqqan (ا can mean either an Obligation or Truth.
Ref http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Hqq
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Arman -
Arman - thanks again.
Your question "whether there are words in the Quran where the meaning is different for the same spelling/part of speech...?" is a totally different/new question.
He he... sorry I did not articulate that I was asking a new/ tangent question... we're so offtopic from "Significance of alef in " that I just went with the flow )