What is the Qur'ans stance on homosexuality?
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Peace Abdul-Hadi,
Refute that AQ 780 refers to lewdness "such as none of the worlds had done before."
These people most importantly ransomed the people that traveled the regions and often kept them as slaves and they abused them down to their very bodies. In the narration they intend to capture the angels (disguised as humans) to take them into their strange practices.
The crime is not exactly homosexuality in the narration, but they seek things beyond their own families and what they rightfully possess. It could be that the angels in disguise may look very attractive to a polluted mind.
Refute that even if l-fishata means homosexual acts, no punishment is applied without four witnesses.
I do not believe that "l-fishata" is exclusively necessarily those acts, but crimes that you commit. You must admit that bringing four witnesses to testify to punish for something means that you have done something really bad and that someone is wronged in the matter. The word is connoted to immorality, but what is immorality? Sure, adultery, but that is having sex with someone that is somebody else's partner. The crime there is that someone is hurt in the process of doing the actual adultery, because there is trust that is broken. The betrayed man or woman is the one that is the reason in any case why the involved persons ought to be punished in any way. The question is whether it is not easier to just ignore the woman or man that betrayed you and divorce rather than the hassle to punish them. Just a lot of work to seek revenge, particularly if you require four witnesses. Obviously the person was not worth you and of low moral standard.
3134 The ones who spend in prosperity and hardship, and who repress anger and who pardon the people; God loves the good doers...
3135 ...and those who, if they commit lewdness/immorality (l-fishata), or/and hence wrong themselves, they regard God and seek forgiveness for their sins. And who can forgive the sins except God? And they do not persist in what they have done while they know.Personally, (l-fish), refers to all sorts of crimes that you can do that are immoral. For various reasons it has slipped unto the track of meaning purely things about sex.
780 And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit immorality such as none of those of the worlds had done before??
781 ?You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women/family! Indeed, you are a transgressing people.?
782 The only response of his people was ?Drive them out of your town; they are a people who wish to be pure!?They not only approached them, but kept them completely.
2928 And Lot, when he said to his people ?You commit an immorality that no others in the world have done before!?
2929 ?You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society.? But the only response from his people was to say ?Bring us the retribution of God, if you are being truthful!?It is also a very interesting phenomenon that the whole population would be tempted to homosexuality. I think there is something not right in the interpretation. I think they just kept the travelers or people from conquered regions, regardless female or male, as slaves like prison-like harems and took all their possessions. It is likely the humiliation of the bodies of the people they took as slaves that is the biggest issue in the whole narration. It is oppression and injustice.
Sorry, this is an extract from the dictionary, but the formatting is apparently not compatible with this forum.
shame 1 S2 / em / noun 1 it?s a shame/what a shame etc spoken used when you wish a situation was different, and you feel sad or disappointed ?She?s failed her test again.? ?What a shame!? It?s a shame that you have to leave so soon. What a shame we missed the wedding. It's a shame about the weather. it is a shame to do something It?s a shame to cover this beautiful table with a tablecloth. I can?t imagine why they canceled your show, Tracy. That?s such a shame . a crying/great/terrible shame It was a crying shame that they lost the game. Register In written English, people usually say something is unfortunate rather than a shame It?s unfortunate that these warnings were not taken seriously. 2 the feeling you have when you feel guilty and embarrassed because you, or someone who is close to you, have done something wrong He felt a deep sense of shame. Maria blushed with shame. To her shame (= it made her feel ashamed ) , she gained back all the weight she?d lost. He?s brought shame on the whole family. hang/bow your head in shame (= look down, or feel like you should look down, because you feel so ashamed ) I bow my head in shame when I think of how I treated her. There?s no shame in (= it should not make you feel ashamed ) saying ?I don?t know.? 3 the ability to feel shame How could you do such a thing? Have you no shame ? 4 shame on you/him/them etc spoken used to say that someone should feel guilty or embarrassed because of something they have done Shame on you, Fred. I thought you were my friend! 5 put somebody/something to shame to be so much better than someone or something else that it makes the other thing seem very bad or ordinary His cooking puts mine to shame. THESAURUS shame the feeling you have when you feel guilty and embarrassed because you, or someone who is close to you, have done something wrong She never overcame the shame of having abandoned her children. | He remembered his angry words with a deep sense of shame. | Following the scandal, Garrison resigned in shame. humiliation a feeling of shame and embarrassment because you have been made to look weak or stupid in front of other people What really upset me was the humiliation of having to ask her for money. | He suffered the humiliation of defeat in the first round of the competition. dishonour British English , dishonor American English formal the loss of other people?s respect because you have done something bad, or you have been unsuccessful His comments have brought shame and dishonour on him and his profession. | There is no dishonour in failure when you have done everything you possibly can to succeed. stigma the feeling that other people in society disapprove of you because of something that has happened to you, or because you feel different from most other people in some way ? used especially when this seems unfair and unreasonable Even when someone has been found innocent of a crime, the stigma often remains. | At first I found the stigma of being unemployed very difficult to cope with. | In many countries there is still a strong social stigma attached to homosexuality. gGreat shame disgrace a complete loss of people?s respect because you have done something very bad and shocking His actions brought disgrace on the family. | The players were sent home in disgrace after admitting taking drugs. | Garton killed himself because he could not bear the disgrace of being charged with corruption. ignominy formal a feeling of great shame and embarrassment because you have been made to look weak or stupid ? a very formal use The team suffered the ignominy of losing five games in a row. | She hoped to avoid the ignominy of having to appear in court.
The point with the Arabic word is also whenever someone feels shame (hurt) over something that somebody has done, then the matter of this law comes into play. The crime by other means needs to in some way be something that hurts someone, such as real adultery (break of trust between married couple), theft, murder, betrayal of trust etc. Shame is deeply connoted to a failure in keeping the trust you had for someone.
Adultery is, however, by state law in the Western world not regarded as a crime, so there is no way you can legally punish someone for doing adultery. It was decriminalized many years ago in most developed countries. Thus punishing someone for adultery is literally taking the law into your own hands, which is a crime in itself. Adultery is hence an immoral action and a shame, but not on criminal level so that you can punish someone. Adultery is still considered a very foul and distasteful act and the person is often punished indirectly by being regarded a person of low standard by people who have not fallen away from God completely.
Acts such as adultery is usually in the Middle-East called bringing dishonor/shame on the family and it is from this way acts are criminalized, but the real issue is that someone is hurt emotionally. This is why crimes are punished. No matter whether you punish someone or does not punish someone the person will be punished anyway, so revenge is often not so fruitful as one may think and working to repair things is better than act out in fury over something. Do not fight fire with fire. A psychological punishment is usually just as effective as a physical one or in fact even more effective. Ruining someone's life psychologically is worse than coming upfront with them and giving them a straight right. The moral family suffering from the person who, for example, performed the adultery crime can and should help punish the culprit by non-physical means so hence God's will can be done without any governmental intervention.
And sorry I delved into something else when the topic was homosexuality. Sadly, for you, is that it has never been directly written in the commandments from God about homosexuality. God created the human and made a partner from that human, is what we know, and male and female created God them.
But please do not involve punishments for immorality and zina into this discussion. It is just that path Satan wants us to take, to bring the law into our own hands because we detest this phenomenon with homosexuality. So many women have been stoned to death already in history and now it is the gays' turn?
Be whole
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Sorry, this is an extract from the dictionary, but the formatting is apparently not compatible with this forum.
Can those words be fixed?
Looks like those are useful information, but it seems that reading them with such arrangement make me a bit dizzy... @__@
Salm.
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Peace reel,
'In preference to women, you satisfy your lust with men.' Homosexuals have no interest in opposite sex. They just can't do it.
Your quote does not suggest that the people of Lut were actually attracted to women. Here, "in preference to" means "instead of". Check other translations to verify, as well as this thesaurus entry http//thesaurus.com/browse/in+preference
Allah confirms of such men in the verse below
"And tell the believing women to reduce of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which appears thereof and to wrap their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire"2431I don't think the Qur'an denies that homosexual (or even asexual) men exist, but I don't think that this in any way justifies people approaching others of the same sex with desire.
Since Allah does not give us instructions on how to treat homosexuals I think we should just let them be what they are. How can we take decisions for them when Allah has made them as such?
I absolutely think we should let homosexuals be, but I don't think it's right to tell people that the Qur'an says that acting on homosexual desires is okay. To me, it seems to clearly denounce that kind of behaviour.
Allahu a'lim.
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I'm entirely unconvinced the verses about Lut have any reference to homosexuality at all. The translation of "approaching men out of desire" does not make sense to me in the story of Lut. First of all I dont think 'riyal' in that verse has been proven to mean exclusively men. It's entirely possible it can mean a group of people including women. Second, I'm not convinced ?ta?tuna? in that verse has any sexual connoation at all. Prove me wrong but looking at other occurences of these words in Quran, next to the coherence of the story of Lut, I'm pretty convinced Quran actually does not even mention homosexuality at all.
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Sex is not necessarily out of attraction. Sex is very commonly used as an expression of power and as a means to exert power. That is what rape is, about power not about attraction. It is gross idiocy to say that when males rape women they do it out of attraction. Well, yes, attraction all right, but not to women, but to power and overpower.
Frankly the level of this discussion does not seem to me to make anybody any more enlightened about any question. I have seen much better debates on this matter in this forum. The lid on the debate on this thread was put on at the very beginning and woe to whoever dares lift it even a little.
But, so it should be, let us agree all "heterosexual" are exactly alike and the same and all "homosexuals" are exactly alike and the same. They are not attracted to this or that because they are not attracted to this or that and that explains everything to everybody's satisfaction. As a concession if everything does not fit as it should, a category of bisexuals can be contemplated to use as a joker, but don't wander beyond.
Salaam
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@huruf Those maybe your rules. I just dont find them in Quran. See my previous post for why. Seems like the homophobic brainwashing caused by ahadith is still damaging some on this forum.
Edit just checked Edip's QRT and it has the same homophobic translation. I should contact Edip to urge him to research the translation he has put in there.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Peace Abdul-Hadi,
<snip>
Adultery is, however, by state law in the Western world not regarded as a crime, so there is no way you can legally punish someone for doing adultery. It was decriminalized many years ago in most developed countries. Thus punishing someone for adultery is literally taking the law into your own hands, which is a crime in itself. Adultery is hence an immoral action and a shame, but not on criminal level so that you can punish someone. Adultery is still considered a very foul and distasteful act and the person is often punished indirectly by being regarded a person of low standard by people who have not fallen away from God completely.
Adultery is no longer criminalized under state law, however...in some states, an aggrieved spouse can sue for alienation of affection. Also, under the UCMJ (military), adultery is still criminal.
<snip>
But please do not involve punishments for immorality and zina into this discussion. It is just that path Satan wants us to take, to bring the law into our own hands because we detest this phenomenon with homosexuality. So many women have been stoned to death already in history and now it is the gays' turn?
The actual word used means immorality (not homosexuality), but what I was trying to convey was without 4 witnesses, a "righteous" ) person can't apply lashes or any other punishment. There is not much chance of having 4 witnesses.
Be whole
@recite I agree that we should not make claims that aren't true; the Qur'an does not state that homosexual acts are okay, so we should not say that the Qur'an states that. On the other hand, the Qur'an does not state the opposite. In any case, even if homosexual acts are allowed, this does not mean that promiscuity or lustful acts are encouraged.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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@huruf Those maybe your rules. I just dont find them in Quran. See my previous post for why. Seems like the homophobic brainwashing caused by ahadith is still damaging some on this forum.
Edit just checked Edip's QRT and it has the same homophobic translation. I should contact Edip to urge him to research the translation he has put in there.
What are you talking about? What rules have I set or attempted to set? That I can recollect I have not done that and nothing further from my mind that setting rules for anybody.
Please if you say I have, quote, not just go and state that I have set rules anythere. Quote those rules you say I have set.
I think you seem to be answering to some preconception you have as to what I may want to say or not. But I am not guilty of what you think but if of anything, of what I say myself. That is, again, please quote and don't throw happily I do not know what about hadith. That is very comfortable when you want to silence somebody to throw on him or her the hadith stuff.
Please quote and then, at least, if you are right, I may know what you are talking about. As it is, I don't have the slightest idea and
"Seems like the homophobic brainwashing caused by ahadith is still damaging some on this forum."
addressed to me it is not proper debate but maligning a person. Not that I give a damn that you or anybody else maligns me as much as they care to, but so you know that to throw such accusations it would be nice if there was a quote.
Salaam
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As a concession if everything does not fit as it should, a category of bisexuals can be contemplated to use as a joker, but don't wander beyond.
Those are your rules. They can not be backed up with Quran. As I showed in the previous post it's very questionable Quran mentions homosexuality at all. It's a wrong translation of 781. I beg everyone trusting the hadith-based, homophobic translation to prove to me that verse is about homosexuality at all. In that regard, I'm not condemning anyone personally but I'm shocked to see on this forum the damage of hadith translations is still influencing and misguiding us even here.
This is no small matter either. The homophobic and wrong translation of that verse is fueling people to hate/condemn others based on their sexual preference which is a violation of human rights. Even that logic alone should tell everyone to properly research that translation by themselves.
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I have been researching on this for a while now. Note that I am straight. The thing is that since I live in California I meet many of those homosexual people. They are in my school. They are at work. They are everywhere. And with all honesty, I do not think they can ever be straight. When I read the verses about sodom and gomorrah I feel as if Allah's anger was directed towards straight men who went homosexual just for indulgence. This is the hint 'In preference to women, you satisfy your lust with men.' Homosexuals have no interest in opposite sex. They just can't do it.
Allah confirms of such men in the verse below
"And tell the believing women to reduce of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which appears thereof and to wrap their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire"2431Since Allah does not give us instructions on how to treat homosexuals I think we should just let them be what they are. How can we take decisions for them when Allah has made them as such?
I agree with you.
That's my understanding, too.Peace
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I think I shouldnt bother reaching out to Edip to get the translation of 781 corrected. I found this article on the 19.org website http//19.org/blog/homophobia-phobia/
It clearly shows the homophobic nature of Edip and why he kept that hadith translation in there (QRT). For Edip bestiality, incest, pedophilia are equal to homosexuality even though Quran clearly gives us rules on all those but does not mention homosexuality at all.
For the record, I'm heterosexual as well. I'm just shocked to find out one of my idols in the Quranist movement has these kind of beliefs. How can he be blind this is violating human rights and giving a free ticket to gay bashing for anyone interested even if they are muslim?
Shame on you Edip. The same practices you accuse the hadith-followers of, you are committing yourself in the translation of 781. You kept the hadith translation intact only because it doesnt conflict your personal homophobic feelings. Considering to leave this forum as it is affiliated with Edip. I'll guess I'll study my Quran alone. Disgusted and disillusioned.
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Those are your rules. They can not be backed up with Quran. As I showed in the previous post it's very questionable Quran mentions homosexuality at all. It's a wrong translation of 781. I beg everyone trusting the hadith-based, homophobic translation to prove to me that verse is about homosexuality at all. In that regard, I'm not condemning anyone personally but I'm shocked to see on this forum the damage of hadith translations is still influencing and misguiding us even here.
This is no small matter either. The homophobic and wrong translation of that verse is fueling people to hate/condemn others based on their sexual preference which is a violation of human rights. Even that logic alone should tell everyone to properly research that translation by themselves.
No man, those are not my rules, what I am saying is what it transires from what has been written in this thread, of course it is said with certain sarcasm, but those are not my rules but the rules that I find are being followed by several of the writers in this thread. So you have completely misunderstood my message. Completely. And it confirms me in my appreciation that it is useless to write anything in this thread.
Salaamk
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I think I shouldnt bother reaching out to Edip to get the translation of 781 corrected. I found this article on the 19.org website http//19.org/blog/homophobia-phobia/
It clearly shows the homophobic nature of Edip and why he kept that hadith translation in there (QRT). For Edip bestiality, incest, pedophilia are equal to homosexuality even though Quran clearly gives us rules on all those but does not mention homosexuality at all.
For the record, I'm heterosexual as well. I'm just shocked to find out one of my idols in the Quranist movement has these kind of beliefs. How can he be blind this is violating human rights and giving a free ticket to gay bashing for anyone interested even if they are muslim?
Shame on you Edip. The same practices you accuse the hadith-followers of, you are committing yourself in the translation of 781. You kept the hadith translation intact only because it doesnt conflict your personal homophobic feelings. Considering to leave this forum as it is affiliated with Edip. I'll guess I'll study my Quran alone. Disgusted and disillusioned.
Some men who really hate homosexuals are hidden gay police
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Peace runninglikezebras,
I'm entirely unconvinced the verses about Lut have any reference to homosexuality at all. The translation of "approaching men out of desire" does not make sense to me in the story of Lut. First of all I dont think 'riyal' in that verse has been proven to mean exclusively men. It's entirely possible it can mean a group of people including women. Second, I'm not convinced ?ta?tuna? in that verse has any sexual connoation at all. Prove me wrong but looking at other occurences of these words in Quran, next to the coherence of the story of Lut, I'm pretty convinced Quran actually does not even mention homosexuality at all.
You may be on the right track. I have current theories I have not yet revealed to the public, but they indicate that the word riyal is not exclusively but rather something like "individuals" or men (genderless) and nisa is even so not women but it means family. So that you approach the men (genderless) instead of your families. I was not going to say this yet, but it may be worth keeping in mind.
Be whole
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Can those words be fixed?
Looks like those are useful information, but it seems that reading them with such arrangement make me a bit dizzy... @__@
Salm.
Harmony be upon you sister,
Errmm... not now afterwards. But try to filter the red highlighted text. Sorry. It was much work already.
Be whole
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781 has the same incorrect hadith inspired and homophobic translation on this website. I would love to see it corrected. It's not a matter of speculation. The current translation does totally not hold up to scrutiny.
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Peace runninglikezebras,
If I could choose and make a translation out of the words it would say something like this
781 ?You are approaching the people out of desire instead of the families! Indeed, you are a transgressing people.?
Be whole
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I think that translation does the original text way more justice. In the context of 781 it is impossible only men are adressed as in the previous verses the subject is a whole society including men and women. The same verse is repeated elsewhere, no doubt that one is still contaminated as well.
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Peace runninglikezebras,
If you repeatedly translate a word incorrectly then of course the whole narration falter.
Be whole
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Some men who really hate homosexuals are hidden gay police
Apparently, I often read such statement/comment (similar statement/comment like what I quoted above).
Personally, I think it is vile statement, and such statement is clearly unfair.
Be careful, it's a big accusation.
Looks like some people often say such statement by lightly,
whereas, if the statement is brought to God's Court, perhaps it's not something with a light responsibility.
I suggest you to think carefully if next time you want to write/say such statement/comment.
Salm.