The Smoke Article
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Dear Zenje
Should I thank you for you chastising me by picking on the word "chase" in my posting? I would like to; but honestly I cannot thank you. Here is the reason.
First, I performed my mirror tactic or followed Newton's Third Law for every action there is equal and opposite reaction.
My temper on this issue in fact is very mild, compared to what I and my comrades have been subjected to regarding my faith on this issue. The action or reaction of those who are bilind to the number 19 is extreme, not mine. Some of them even went beyond verbal attacks, they killed his discoverer; my close friend. My life has been threatend and I am attacked physically, insulted, accused of many false tihings, and mocked by many people for my testimony to a great prophecy and miracle of the Quran for about two decades.
Perhaps, the magnitude of our action and reaction is increasing by feeding each other. But, what made me chase this particular person until the NUMBERS of the CROWD, whic I believe he is relying on, was his making a cheap mockery with my testimony of the role of NUMBER 19 in the Quran.
If you cannot hear the snobbish mockery in his sound-bite, then you are right in your chastising me. But, if you think that challenging and intellectually chasing a mockerer is an irrational reaction then I beg to differ.
I finally reacted to numerous letters posted here in several threads containing mockery with my belief system. I did not want to start a debate on this issue, but I received constant criticism, occasional insults and mockery.
So, arguably I might have lost my temper a little bit in my reaction, but you have lost your objectivity as a judge.
Peace,
Edip -
So, arguably I might have lost my temper a little bit in my reaction, but you have lost your objectivity as a judge.
Peace,
EdipPeace Edip,
What could the reasons be behind an emotional reaction on what ought to be faith based on facts and reason? Do you think it says anything about whether faith is based on more emotion than facts or otherwise?
Thanks
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Peace Edip,
I was making an observation on this issue, not entirely based on this one post. I have seen this before. I apologize if I sounded judgemental, that wasn't my intention. I was trying to make you see yourself. I'm sure with the constant barrage of attacks and mockery, you'd be used to it by now and as usual 'be cool' in you posts. Instead, it sounded like you wanted to hunt down the perpetrators and kill every one of them. I hope I'm clear.
Again... Peace.
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Peace all,
I personally see it as being both pointless and counter-productive to keep going back and forth on this issue. I don't see why people just can't agree to dis-agree on this matter and move on.
Pointless.....truly pointless. cry
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Peace all,
I personally see it as being both pointless and counter-productive to keep going back and forth on this issue. I don't see why people just can't agree to dis-agree on this matter and move on.
Pointless.....truly pointless. cry
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon.Peace Damon,
Not clear which posts you are referring to. However, what is wrong with examining other peoples knowledge? Sometimes to grow we need some outside input whilst being critical. The other person may take part or not its cool. D
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Peace
This is an impressive sound bite, but it ignores and hides many important things that the number 19 addresses.
I challenge you or any other unappreciative or enemy of the code 19 to justify your faith in ALL the verses of the Quran, including 9128-129.It is God's blessing for those who decided to dedicate their religion to God alone by upholding God alone to be supported by such a prophetic miracle that not only strengthen their faith in the Quran, but also LIBERATE them from relying on the credibilty of previous generations and their transmission. It also provides them with a great physical evidence to defend their faith against the attacks of disbelievers.
This is one of the ironies of the code 19... not only that it doesnt prove and preserve the book but is, if taken seriously and faithfuly, an obvious proof to the book`s corruption.
The code actually proves the corruption of the great reading...
While i have studied it i have found out that almost there is not a single feature- words, initials etc. counted, calculated, used in the code theology-without being some excess in the words or leters or without some cheating in the method.... or without being exception(inclusion and exclusion etc)this and that, for which the followers of the code say "disregard it while counting(?!!)" or "we should count this way and not that way" or "we should exclude it from counting" (from this reason or that) etc. etc. etc.
The most glaring example for this are counts of bismillah`s words and counts of initials...
Even after the deletion of 9/128-129(!)-the fact is that NOT A SINGLE count of bismillah`s word is 19 divisible...
19 divisible counts are product of manipulations with counts -the counts are actually doctored-false...
Also, counts of initials...There are many errors in Khalifas counts and methods of analysis and this is admited by other researchers- proponents and opponents. Rashad himself changed his counts during years many times and according Edip Yuksel Rashad was also aware of these errors after they were indicated by critics and they intended to make a new research to resolve the problems but early death stopped him. To this day I am not aware anyone has solved these numerous difficulties...
Having this in mind and analysing counts of initials in a consistent way, the fact is that no matter how counts of initials are analysed we get nothing... in the best cases we get only a few 19 divisible hits.
An objective statistical analysis shows only normal statistical variations of 19 divisibility- that is-inside the law of the probability. That is, in regards of 19 divisibility, the counts of initials are nothing special, nothing significant and not to speak about divinity or miraculousness of these counts!
"The code", that is, the datas presented and considered as the code actually proves that there is no code embeded in the scripture OR that the scripture is totally changed and corrupted and full of false insertions even after corrections made by Rashad.
I only wonder what next will be deleted under the disguise of the divine preservation of the book.
Besides that all, how it happened that so important doctrine -code 19- which have so important and crutial functions preserving, proving, protecting, purifying of the scripture etc is not mentioned at all in, as the code believers like to say, fully detailed Quran?
The God mentions in the great reading diferent sort of details in regards of all things, it detaily describes the signs of Moses which occured in the past, but it forgots(!) to list such important functions of no 19 -preserving , protecting, prooving etc. It even does not say that code 19 is a sign??!!
So accordingly, if the code is the truth then it only further proves the corruption of the book - the verses that proves and supports the code must have been be deleted as well?
best wishes, Zlatan
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Salaamun alaikum Zlatan, all,
The God mentions in the great reading diferent sort of details in regards of all things, it detaily describes the signs of Moses which occured in the past, but it forgots(!) to list such important functions of no 19 -preserving , protecting, prooving etc. It even does not say that code 19 is a sign??!!
Check this out
Sunnis Hadith and sunna ARE proven from the quran ? How, by cutting up verses like 59/7 (take what rasool gives u) and decontextualising 'obey Allah and obey messenger'. How do you select hadith ? by making the muhaditheen's criteria as divinely inspired.
19ers 19 code IS proven from the quran. How? by totally ignoring the fact that Allah never told us how to count it and left it to our own devices. Therefore, RK's criteria has become god's criteria.
Falsehood follows similar patterns, unfortunately.
Edip, forget about this code. Stand by the Book's MESSAGE and we can all stand up against oppression and establish Allah's laws.
thanks and peace
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Peace be upon you all,
If people would stop counting this reading(quran), they would see that the goal of spiritual cultivation is to overcome emotions. Emotions are "knee jerk" reactions that have been programmed into us by our cultures/traditions (what our fathers followed).
We have to seperate our minds from tradition (Mary (female/Mind)seperated from her family (tradition) and gave birth to the new PARADIGM.
When we understand that our minds can be programmed, we can CHANGE the automatic reactions of emotions that we have, we can begin to respond with peace.
Solomon understood well, he used his emotions(shayteen) to work for him.
My point is not to say that I expect anyone here , including myself to have mastered that, but when I see people saying that to respond emotionally for ANY REASON is okay, I have to question thier understanding of the guidance, especially after such a long time defending this 19 "miracle".
Brother Damon, Take your time and stop putting all your efforts behind a cause without examining. I know you are ready to act, but there are rules in life that we cannot move away from, or we meet failure. Or maybe you are actually a follower of the 19 code, perhaps I wrongly assumed you were not in agreement with that.
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Peace i was really surprised when i first read about the code initionally i like it but with time passing away i have to say its just a fitna why its a fitna well it take peoples away from the Message instead of following the Message they start conjecture about 19 but well every one has his/her own understanding but i will request to the followers of code 19 n peoples who r against the code that we should stick with the message instead of proving to every one that either its right or wrong its very similer to sunni who thoughts when they read in Quran to follow God and The Messanger n then Quran was left n peoples just start running behind hadith to follow the Messanger same happend to 19rs they also start running behind the code 19 instead of following or permoting The Message whicih is Quran peace
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peace, salvation, and all the well being to you mujahid, all
Check this out
Sunnis Hadith and sunna ARE proven from the quran ? How, by cutting up verses like 59/7 (take what rasool gives u) and decontextualising 'obey Allah and obey messenger'.
Falsehood follows similar patterns, unfortunately.Very good observation mq...the whole code story is about the decontextualising...its a heap of decontextualisations piled up upon another heap of decontexctualisations, piled up upon an another heap... et cetera... ad infinitum...this is among the most important reasons why it shouldnt be accepted, and not some animosity toward numbers, any personality or whatever...
with this in mind it becames clear that Edip and other code 19 supporters together with the whole spectar of symphatisers are far from having probem with 2 verses or so...it would be a great banalisation of the problem....they are having big big problems with many messages of the book.... many of them being essential or in the core of this divine book...actualy they are having great problems with the great reading/quran in general, since more than a simple compilation of its isolated verses and sayings, this God`s message is rather a compact DOCTRINE, in a way an undivisible and unsolubile WHOLE, where the summ is greater and qualitatively significantly different from its parts...
best wishes, Zlatan
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Salaamun alaikum Zlatan,
Very good observation mq...the whole code story is about the decontextualising...its a heap of decontextualisations piled up upon another heap of decontexctualisations, piled up upon an another heap... et cetera... ad infinitum...this is among the most important reasons why it shouldnt be accepted, and not some animosity toward numbers, any personality or whatever...
Thank you. All I was doing was repeating the arguments raised against 19ism from the debate in ropelist made in 1999. I'm very happy that debate took place because it exposed 19ism quite clearly to me.
I believe these false stategies of approaching the book can easily be exposed by compiling all verses and seeing what contradicts (4/82 being the internal principle involved). Sunnism, Shiaism, 19ism and even certain free-minds opinion, imho, fails this analysis.
thanks and peace.