What Constitutes a Muslim?

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Kyle,

Man, as usual, your questions are incisive ! I hope you keep at this study of yours

Here is the problem I have. What is the difference between a "muslim organization" and a SECT? You know we have both been here for a very long time, how many times have we seen others come here and call us a sect and we respond that Free Minds is just a forum not a GROUP? Why did we say that? Because we understood at least I thought so that when you form a group seperate from the rest of humanity, it is a sect.

We're not allowed to join sects, right ? By that logic, we should all be sunnis because we're not allowed to break away from the main group...hehe.

No, no, imho, it doesn't work like that. It works like this

22/78, we have 'al-muslimeen', this is the core group. 22/78 is mentioned with Ibrahim, who fulfilled certain criteria (like establishing god's system etc).
Then we have the 'shiyas'/parties (6/159). But here's how to tell them apart from the core group Allah says they 'FARRAQU DEENAHUM' (fractionalised thier DEEN). So they abandoned part of the deen. Where is the deen contained ? In the fully-detailed book.

So to me, the way to tell the difference between almuslimeen core group and those who breakaway is to see conformity to the Book itself.

SO again, in regards to working with ANYONE, even a trinitarian in good deeds, YES, I will ALWAYS do that, but you do not have to form a group with the trinitarian, THAT is the difference. We don't have to form ANY kind of group. We are getting away from the understanding that Free Minds is not a group, just a place to study and debate.

The trinitarian can JOIN the core group, but can never LEAD the core group, because he has broken up the deen.

good mental stimulation there, brother.

thanks and peace.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you MQ,

Man, as usual, your questions are incisive ! I hope you keep at this study of yours

Thank you brother, I hope I can find the right question.

Code
Here is the problem I have. What is the difference between a "muslim organization" and a SECT? You know we have both been here for a very long time, how many times have we seen others come here and call us a sect and we respond that Free Minds is just a forum not a GROUP? Why did we say that? Because we understood (at least I thought so) that when you form a group seperate from the rest of humanity, it is a sect.

We're not allowed to join sects, right ? By that logic, we should all be sunnis because we're not allowed to break away from the main group...hehe.

D The main group is The party of the God, ONENESS. Mankind was once one community, but THEN started breaking of into sects. Sunni, is just one of those sects. I belong to the Party of the God(at least I strive to). I do not belong to Free minds group, Sunnis, shiites, christians, jews, etc. I follow the God's guidance in the Book of Life(Universe) and follow all readings that guide me through this great Book(universe). The God tells us to have faith in what was descended on us and those before us.

So breaking away from sunnism, was joining the ONE COMMUNITY. We go backwards to join another SECT, and even further to join two sects together.

We don't need a NAME in order to promote goodness and reject wickedness. When the God said "let there arise a community from you to call to all that is good", He did not say give that group a name. Each os us who do right is described as one who peacefully submits. A community of such people are described as a community of ones who peacefully submit. There does not need to be a NAME. When you NAME something , you define it, therefore making it SEPERATE from other things. Seperation is wickedness, we strive for UNIFICATION/ONENESS, which is above names.

THAT is why this reading(quran) does not have a name, only attributes
THAT is why our Lord is above names, olnly attributes

If you have faith in the One God and the ONENESS of all things, then promote it to everyperson, every chance you get.

Let me go further, we should already be doing that. If we were all already doing that (myself included, but I am making good progress), we would see that joining with a group of 19 worshippers will not help us but cause confusion (because it would be under the same TITLE/LABEL). Why not everyone in each group compete in all that is good. If we MUST insist on "groups" why not some competition to see which "group" can do better?

No, no, imho, it doesn't work like that. It works like this

22/78, we have 'al-muslimeen', this is the core group. 22/78 is mentioned with Ibrahim, who fulfilled certain criteria (like establishing god's system etc).
Then we have the 'shiyas'/parties (6/159). But here's how to tell them apart from the core group Allah says they 'FARRAQU DEENAHUM' (fractionalised thier DEEN). So they abandoned part of the deen. Where is the deen contained ? In the fully-detailed book.

So to me, the way to tell the difference between almuslimeen core group and those who breakaway is to see conformity to the Book itself.

Yes, so why cant we see that the followers of 19 have fractionalized this system? What does the God say about those who break off into sects? D I am not interested in joining the fractionalized group, I only want to promote the God's system, and continue to study and debate in this FORUM.

Quote
SO again, in regards to working with ANYONE, even a trinitarian in good deeds, YES, I will ALWAYS do that, but you do not have to form a group with the trinitarian, THAT is the difference. We don't have to form ANY kind of group. We are getting away from the understanding that Free Minds is not a group, just a place to study and debate.

The trinitarian can JOIN the core group, but can never LEAD the core group, because he has broken up the deen.

I do not want to use the word GROUP. A trinitarian will most likely not join the core group because he/she is PREVENTED form the restricted masjid(mental focus of hearing and obeying) to which we should be pointed(Qibla). But they will never follow the correct Qibla, nor will they follow each others. We have a sect here whose Qibla is 19, clearly.

good mental stimulation there, brother.

Thank you for the stimulation brother, I just wish that we could be using our energy for other topics. This topic should have been rejected right away. It concerns me that it is being given real consideration, but I am at peace with my position, as is stated, this is not a group, but a forum, each will be paid according to what they earned.

Lastly, do you have any idea of what is suppossed to happen on Feb 19th accordingt o Edip? I haven't gotten an answer, I was hoping someone else had that info. Or maybe someone here who follows the 19 philosophy can calculate it themselves and tell us, unless Edip is the only one with this "power".

Elena

Peace Idolfree,
first I am impressed, as always.
Second, I understand that wrong things have to be dennounced and that it is commanded to not conceal the truth if you know it, but, for me, the game of Edip has no a lot of room in my brain, I see it as another part of his way of expressing, very different from the way of Layth and the way of all of you who participate in this forum, way that prevents me to find the content of his writings, I never reach it. The bad judgemnents, the agressive remarks, the personification of the messages and the loads of words and lines keep me away from the possible message.
In short, do we have to pay attention on it?

sabo

Peace idolfree1,

We have a sect here whose Qibla is 19, clearly.

And we have another sect here whose Qibla is SYMBOLISM, clearly. The people in this sect are worshipping the SYMBOLISM and making it the focus, bla bla bla

Everything can be twisted that way.

Best regards,
sabo

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Sabo,

Quote
We have a sect here whose Qibla is 19, clearly.

And we have another sect here whose Qibla is SYMBOLISM, clearly. The people in this sect are worshipping the SYMBOLISM and making it the focus, bla bla bla

Everything can be twisted that way.

Yes, but only TRUTH can be verified. You can verify symbolisms ALL DAY EVERY DAY, I guess we'll just wait for Feb 19th to verify.

The qibla is the place of hearing and obeying the restrictions(mental level). Just so you can be CLEAR. Symbolism is a method used by the right brain, the side that UNIFIES, to gain understanding. So we read;

(226) GOD does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory/similitude(mathalan), from the tiny mosquito and greater...

Because the God uses MUCH symbolism, so this answers the question to those who say "Why is everything Symbolism to you?" THERES the answer, because the God is not shy from using the method that WORKS!

WHere is the response to those who say "Why does he count 19's all the time?"

Thier count is a FITNA(trial) for the rejectors.

But if you want to accept a TRIAL over symbolisms which the God says He does not shy away from, then go ahead, have faith in sticks turning to snakes and seas splitting. I am still at peace. D

sabo

Peace idolfree1,

God uses symbolism, and God uses numbers...

But people can twist everything, e.g. people can make a human being like mary a mind, and use the excuse that God used symbolism somewhere else, so He must be using it all the time and then start to see symbolism everywhere even where it doesn't exist.

God used number 19, but there are also people who abuse that and see 19 everywhere, even where it doesn't exist.

Both are extreme idolfree1. And as we can say there are 19 worshippers and making 19 their idol and focal point , QIBLA, we cam say the same about those who make everything symbolism, and call them symbolism worshippers making the symbolism their idol and QIBLA, blablabla

God using symbolism in some places doesn't mean he is using it exclusively all the time, anywhere and everywhere and never using real examples which existed on this earth, did u grasp what i wanna say?

best regards,
sabo

sabo

double post. deleted

Tay

Peace Kyle,

You see, on the issues we all have in common, we AUTOMATICALLY UNITE.

After much contemplation, I realize that I have subconsciously reached the same conclusion. Funny, it comes back to the 10' radius. It still holds true. All we need to do is take care of those that are within 10' of us at all times. If we all take this attitude, then the whole world is ok, and united, individually.

p.s.
check your pm

Peace,
Tay

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Kyle,

The main group is The party of the God, ONENESS. Mankind was once one community, but THEN started breaking of into sects. Sunni, is just one of those sects. I belong to the Party of the God(at least I strive to). I do not belong to Free minds group, Sunnis, shiites, christians, jews, etc. I follow the God's guidance in the Book of Life(Universe) and follow all readings that guide me through this great Book(universe). The God tells us to have faith in what was descended on us and those before us.

So breaking away from sunnism, was joining the ONE COMMUNITY. We go backwards to join another SECT, and even further to join two sects together.

Agreed, the one community, 'ummatan wahida' (2/213) but this community by its very nature cannot stay united (also 2/213)

We don't need a NAME in order to promote goodness and reject wickedness. When the God said "let there arise a community from you to call to all that is good", He did not say give that group a name. Each os us who do right is described as one who peacefully submits. A community of such people are described as a community of ones who peacefully submit. There does not need to be a NAME. When you NAME something , you define it, therefore making it SEPERATE from other things. Seperation is wickedness, we strive for UNIFICATION/ONENESS, which is above names.
THAT is why this reading(quran) does not have a name, only attributes
THAT is why our Lord is above names, olnly attributes

I'd have to disagree with you there. I believe a name was given to us, 'al-muslimeen' to essentially seperate from those who are NOT working in the system of Ibrahim. I'd also have to disagree about 'al-quraan' not being a proper name because its clear defined as such.

Yes, so why cant we see that the followers of 19 have fractionalized this system? What does the God say about those who break off into sects? I am not interested in joining the fractionalized group, I only want to promote the God's system, and continue to study and debate in this FORUM
.

Well, the forum to me is a great place to dig up new ideas, definitely.

Thank you for the stimulation brother, I just wish that we could be using our energy for other topics. This topic should have been rejected right away. It concerns me that it is being given real consideration, but I am at peace with my position, as is stated, this is not a group, but a forum, each will be paid according to what they earned.

Lastly, do you have any idea of what is suppossed to happen on Feb 19th accordingt o Edip? I haven't gotten an answer, I was hoping someone else had that info. Or maybe someone here who follows the 19 philosophy can calculate it themselves and tell us, unless Edip is the only one with this "power".
.

I have no idea about feb 19th, sorry. But do keep up the good work on other topics. I'd love to see you get to grips with musa and firaun. plenty of metaphors there !

thanks and peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Sabo,

God uses symbolism, and God uses numbers...

Correct.

But people can twist everything, e.g. people can make a human being like mary a mind, and use the excuse that God used symbolism somewhere else, so He must be using it all the time and then start to see symbolism everywhere even where it doesn't exist.

Mary symbolizes that which nurtures the new paradigm, it is very old symbolism. DO your research. I have explained it in detail, but all you can do is disagree, unlike 19 which can be logically argued away in the very next verse which calls it a trial for rejectors.

God used number 19, but there are also people who abuse that and see 19 everywhere, even where it doesn't exist.

Both are extreme idolfree1. And as we can say there are 19 worshippers and making 19 their idol and focal point , QIBLA, we cam say the same about those who make everything symbolism, and call them symbolism worshippers making the symbolism their idol and QIBLA, blablabla

But the God knew that there would be people who were overwhelmed by so much symbolism, so He descended the verse that we are discussing, stating that the God does not shy from them. Do you understand that you are getting information from a realm that you cannot understand, so you must get symbolism/similitudes?

God using symbolism in some places doesn't mean he is using it exclusively all the time, anywhere and everywhere and never using real examples which existed on this earth, did u grasp what i wanna say?

If the God used real examples, you werent here anyway to see them, so it wont be "real" for you anyway. But again, you are free to beleiev as you wish. But when you are ready to debate any symbolism, throw first. wink

sabo

Peace idolfree1,

What do you mean by "throw first" ? Have you been informed that I am an egyptian magican working for pharaoh or do you think you are moses? come one!

Well these examples are very much real to me, because they are not just some few events from the past which has nothing to do with our present time. On the contrary, these events are having a great effect on the world until now, that's why among other reasons they are mentioned in the Quran, and before the Quran they were mentioned too. Giving an example doesn't necessary mean that the object in the example isn't real. And when you are going out of context and saying that God doesn't shy from giving examples, this doesn't impress me.

God says he doesn't shy from giving examples and that's true, but this can not be streched to every narration in the Quran just because someone calls himself idolfree1 chose so. You became pretty obsessed with the new idol created called "symbolism" but hey also people who worship 19 will deny they are doing it and i don't expect you to see your new idol

so

giving an example doesn't mean that the narration isn't real. Even a real event can be an example
God is not shy from giving examples doesn't mean that everything in the Quran isn't real and can be taken as symbolism.
These events mentioned in the Quran were mentioned before the Quran to different folks. If these folks made mistakes and understood these things as literal, do you expect the Quran being silent about that? The Quran corrected what people said about solomon, about jesus, etc.. but never said hey these people never existed. Well how are these events affecting the current events? Look at those who call themselves christians, and those who call themselves jews and wake up we are living in a very real worl, not in a fancy world of symbolism

Best regards,
sabo

TheNabi

Salaam Sabo,

giving an example doesn't mean that the narration isn't real. Even a real event can be an example

And vice-versa, so what's your beef?

God says he doesn't shy from giving examples and that's true, but this can not be streched to every narration in the Quran just because someone calls himself idolfree1 chose so.

Why not? Did this god tell a guy named Sabo such a thing?

God is not shy from giving examples doesn't mean that everything in the Quran isn't real and can be taken as symbolism.

Why not? What is realism from one person to the next?

These events mentioned in the Quran were mentioned before the Quran to different folks. If these folks made mistakes and understood these things as literal, do you expect the Quran being silent about that? The Quran corrected what people said about solomon, about jesus, etc.. but never said hey these people never existed.

I doubt anyone here is saying these people never existed. How they existed may be a different story. Mistakes in literal verses symbolic interpretation? Did god say which one is wrong?

Joe

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Sabo, Kyle, Joe,

Sabo God says he doesn't shy from giving examples and that's true, but this can not be streched to every narration in the Quran just because someone calls himself idolfree1 chose so. You became pretty obsessed with the new idol created called "symbolism" but hey also people who worship 19 will deny they are doing it and i don't expect you to see your new ido

Why is it an idol ? 41/53 tells us that

ayaat fil afaaq (signs in the horizons)
ayaat fil anfusl (signs in the selves)
will be shown to us till it is clear that al-quraan is the ultimate truth (al-haqq).

Therefore, firaun (being an ayat in the quran) MUST be confirmed in our horizons and in ourselves for us to know the Quran was telling the truth. We don't need history telling us his name was ramses etc, that's totally besides the point. But Firaun, the SYMBOL lives on in the world and in our selves. Kyle's strategy of reading al-qur'aan is the most correct one we can see in this forum, its vouchsafed by al-quraan itself. While most of us are busy looking for evidence in history, old parchments, miraculous calculations, Kyle's looking for it where it matters, IN HIS OWN LIFE.

Does 41/53 have ANY exception , Sabo ?

thanks and peace.

savage_carrot

Peace mquran,

ayaat fil afaaq (signs in the horizons)
ayaat fil anfusl (signs in the selves)
will be shown to us till it is clear that al-quraan is the ultimate truth (al-haqq).

I agree, perceptions of life and what we have experienced personally will show us the quran is the truth.

Therefore, firaun (being an ayat in the quran) MUST be confirmed in our horizons and in ourselves for us to know the Quran was telling the truth.

Firaun being an ayat in the quran CAN be confirmed by either knowing people today that exhibit those characteristics and/or reading about the said firaun and coming across evidence that such and such existed...obviously, it's easier if we know such people (generally) but the other way is open for those whose inclinations lead them towards an interest in archeology, history etc in their lifetimes...the reading caters to diversity in human nature after all...

Kyle's strategy of reading al-qur'aan is the most correct one we can see in this forum, its vouchsafed by al-quraan itself.

I can see that what's vouchsafed are different methods from which we might see the quran as the truth...not 'just' symbology....

While most of us are busy looking for evidence in history, old parchments, miraculous calculations, Kyle's looking for it where it matters, IN HIS OWN LIFE.

You see, here is where it becomes subjective and relative. We have different ways of living our lives...to someone their personal experiences and say, their studies e.g hermetic teachings, might shape how they see truth in the quran...someone else, an archeologist who spends days looking for old history etc, see's the truth in the quran according to how he has lived his life, to a scientist it's yet another way how he perceives truth in the quran. The point is, if ALL kinds of people are seeing truth in the quran from their OWN personal experiences...that's what matters. No one can say, that one way is the right way in such a scenario...

Regards,
Nadia

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Nadia,

Firaun being an ayat in the quran CAN be confirmed by either knowing people today that exhibit those characteristics and/or reading about the said firaun and coming across evidence that such and such existed...obviously, it's easier if we know such people (generally) but the other way is open for those whose inclinations lead them towards an interest in archeology, history etc in their lifetimes...the reading caters to diversity in human nature after all...

I'm afraid, while i would love to be pluralist in this issue, my reading of The Reading doesn't tell me so. I believe 41/53 only refers to 'live' rotation of signs. Anything textual or archeological doesn't apply.

You see, here is where it becomes subjective and relative. We have different ways of living our lives...to someone their personal experiences and say, their studies e.g hermetic teachings, might shape how they see truth in the quran...someone else, an archeologist who spends days looking for old history etc, see's the truth in the quran according to how he has lived his life, to a scientist it's yet another way how he perceives truth in the quran. The point is, if ALL kinds of people are seeing truth in the quran from their OWN personal experiences...that's what matters. No one can say, that one way is the right way in such a scenario...

Oh agreed. It's a personal subjective experience. There's no objective experience until our 'hour' (as-saat in quranic language) comes. And of course my reading that 41/53 only involves 'live' signs is my own opinion.

no offense intended, but i have to be honest about my understanding

thanks and peace.

savage_carrot

Peace mquran,

I'm afraid, while i would love to be pluralist in this issue, my reading of The Reading doesn't tell me so. I believe 41/53 only refers to 'live' rotation of signs. Anything textual or archeological doesn't apply.

I understand. My understanding of the reading is different. I believe these signs are prevalent in every layer of conceivable life...whether it's chemistry, archeology or my indepth study of the characteristics of my awful uncle steve...

Oh agreed. It's a personal subjective experience. There's no objective experience until our 'hour' (as-saat in quranic language) comes. And of course my reading that 41/53 only involves 'live' signs is my own opinion.

Of course, perfectly valid.

no offense intended, but i have to be honest about my understanding

None taken...it was a pleasure discussing with you. )

Regards,

Nadia

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Nadia,

I understand. My understanding of the reading is different. I believe these signs are prevalent in every layer of conceivable life...whether it's chemistry, archeology or my indepth study of the characteristics of my awful uncle steve...

Nadia, how is that different? YOu take the "symbolism", the lesson contained in the symbolism, and apply it to all levels of objectivity (objective creation).

The part of wisdom that cannot be known is the subjective realm.

I fail to see how that is different from my position, can you explain?

savage_carrot

Peace Kyle,

I fail to see how that is different from my position, can you explain?

Sure, i'll try.

Nadia, how is that different? YOu take the "symbolism", the lesson contained in the symbolism, and apply it to all levels of objectivity (objective creation).

My understanding above is about the signs we were talking about...which can be seen to confirm the truth in the quran can come from different places, be it archeology, chemistry or whatever depending on the experiences of the people who study it...indeed we take the symbolism (this is my personal understanding, i am not saying it is the sole truth, or the only correct understanding, maybe somewhere down the line it might change according to new information) which is a PART of it and apply it if we so choose(the wonder about symbolism is that it is relative and different people will see it differently all according to what their understandings are) that doesn't take away a PART that is literal or physical...and can be used to confirm the truth to people whose inclinations or experience in this life extends to the physical sciences etc....

Like i wrote to mquran I can see that what's vouchsafed are different methods from which we might see the quran as the truth...not 'just' symbology....

You can't insist that ONLY one way is right or correct...there are many ways to confirm the truth...and the quran caters to all kind of people.

The part of wisdom that cannot be known is the subjective realm.

If it cannot be known then it is not known. But i bet we even have different understandings regarding what we consider known and unknowns...this is rumsfelds understanding

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

Nadia

Green_Leaves

Peace,

Here are my 2 cents on "What constitutes a Muslim?"...

In my opinion, there are ONLY two kinds of people in this world

Those who love themseleves the most and
Those who love God the most.

Those who love God the most are guided by God and once they recieve such guidance they leave everything near & dear to them for the love of God. Thus, a Muslim is one who loves God the most.

Elke

Peace greenleaves

you wrote

once they recieve such guidance they leave everything near & dear to them for the love of God

I believe this is excessively simplified even though there is a parcel of truth in it. Any human being, believing in god or not, makes choices in his life. Once these choices made responsabilities come from them and people can't just leave everything behind. I believe the god also wants us to assume our responsabilities in this life, while submitting. One doesn't have to exclude the other. May be I just didn't get what you really meant, because in a short post it's impossible to state it all. Life is never that simple.

Elke