CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
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Dear idolfree
First, Abraham did not tell them that he would breake the idols. He not only left them in suspense, he secretly broke ther small idols and suprised them. I am not exatcly sure about English cannotation of the word prank, but as far as I know, I can say what Abraham did was a philosophical prank, trick or trap, if you wish.
As for the reason why I am not willing to discuss the issue of Salat with you is because I do not want to give you the opportunity to use that debate to flame the division you are trying to promote.
I do enjoy debating with people. However, you should not decieve yourself that I am afraid of debating this issue with you; but I am trying to avoid an argument with someone who appears to be gripping a black-and-white sword of zeal in his hand ready to chop my head off. I am not scared of losing my head, but I am concerned that you might breake your sword from swinging it too recklessly and you may regret afterwords. If that fighter were someone that I considered my enemy, then I would go ahead and fight back with my rainbow colored sword. But, if I believe that the challenging person is someone I should consider my potential ally and brother, then I am hesitant to take that challenge. Do you understand? idea
NOW
Your prayer is for you; my prayer is for me.TOMORROW
When you cool down, we might debate the issue.Peace,
Edip -
Peace be upon you Edip,
Dear idolfree
Somehow "dear" does not seem to match up with the greeting instructed by the God, but there is no compulsion.
First, Abraham did not tell them that he would breake the idols. He not only left them in suspense
(2157) "And by The God, I will manipulate/fight/(destroy) your idols/statues , after you turn giving (your) backs."
(2159-60) They said "Who made/did that with our Gods? Surely he is from the unjust/oppressive." They said "We heard a youth/adolescent mentioning them, is said to him, Abraham."
Will you still hold the view that Abraham did not tell them?
he secretly broke ther small idols and suprised them.
He told them exactly what he was going to do, they were suprised that he really did it because they assumed that everyone should FEAR thier gods. That is why when they saw that he really did it, they were able to figure out who had done it, they started to recall that Abraham TOLD THEM exactly what he was going to do.
I am not exatcly sure about English cannotation of the word prank, but as far as I know, I can say what Abraham did was a philosophical prank, trick or trap, if you wish.
I would call it a strategy, but how does it apply to what you did by making a prophecy for feb 19th? Musa did not make a prophecy to get out of the debate witnessed by Firauns court. Since when is trickery the strategy used? The God's clear signs are enough.
As for the reason why I am not willing to discuss the issue of Salat with you is because I do not want give you the opportunity to use that debate to flame the division you are trying to promote.
I do like debating with people and do not decieve yourself that I am afraid of debating this issue with you
Where have I said you were afraid? My thoughts are that you are too focused on 19, not afraid, thats not a word I would choose for you.
but I am trying to avoid an argument with someone who appears to be gripping a black-and-white sword of zeal in his hand ready to chop off my head with it.
Nonsense, my message is PEACE, and can be clearly documented throughout this forum.
If that fighter were someone that I considered my enemy, then I would go ahead and fight back.
Well, in this forum, we understand the God's instructions of debating(hajja) and not arguing(jidala), so we debate to get at the truth of a matter. We don't describe it as fighting.
But, if I believe that the challenging person is someone I should consider my ally and brother, then I am hesitant to take that challenge. Do you understand?
No, based on the info I gave above. Perhaps you should stop looking at me as a "fighter" or a "challenging person" and it will clear your perception. Further, I do not ALLY with your philosophy of 19, just so we are clear on that.
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That is why when they saw that he really did it, they were able to figure out who had done it, they started to recall that Abraham TOLD THEM exactly what he was going to do.
Dear idolfree
You are misinterpreting the verses. Abraham never told them what he would do specifically or exactly. He told them that he would do a TRICK, TRAP, or A PLAN against their idols. The word KaYD, as you want us to believe, does not mean destroy, smash, break. Most likely they never expected him to break them; they expected something silly, as some people are expecting something silly from my "prophecy"!
They had no clue what he meant with it. Otherwise, they would most likely guard them day and night, imprison or banish Abraham before he fulfilled the act. You are insulting Abraham's intelligence by claiming that he told people that he was going to break their idols, risking his safety and success of his pedagoical plan. You are also undermining the devotion of idolworshipers to their idols; if they new exactly what Abraham was going to do, they would not sleep on his threat.
Besides, his people did not recall that Abraham was going to break their idols, they recalled that Abraham was talking against their idols. Recalling someone talking against something is different than recalling someone doing a particular act against something. You are confusing both.
Abraham gave them a VAGUE warning and surprised them by morning. What I am doing with Ali Sina is very similar to that.
As for Moses, are we required to parrot him? Are we limited with what Moses or another messenger did? I do not think so. I believe that as long as the means of delivering the message does not violate a divine principle, it is fine. Otherwise, using your logic, I can site the names of 27 messengers and their delivery of God's message and accuse you of following a wrong strategy by discussing God's message via computer; since none used the computer, except the most recent messenger who you deny. None of the messengers in the Quran asked his followers to mimick them or the acts of previous messengers.
I see that we have important methodological difference. You tend to even prohibit or reject the word DEAR as a greeting. I started having a good idea about your attitude, comprehension, and position on issues.
I guess we would not be able to work together as a united force. But, this does not mean we have to work against each other, eiether. Perhaps the best strategy is not discussing anything with each other. Of course, you are free to criticize me.
Peace,
Edip -
Dear Idris
Without seing your answer and your quotation of my reference to idolfree's literal approach, I edited and deleted thath part. Not because I changed my mind or learned something about him, I just did not want to be too confrontational. Unfortunately, you snatched that sentence with a twitzer while I was deleting it; and now I am stuck with it cry
If idolfree (Kyle?) is not too literal then he is more complex than I thought. I wish I had time to learn more about him and analize his mind; but, unfortunately I am too busy these days.
Peace and blessings be to you and to idolfree.
PS Why do you think that Idolfree is not starting his mails with Bismillah, like Solomon?
Edip
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Hi all,
I don't think that there is anything wrong with greeting someone in the normal way in English - I know the Koran says answer with an equal or better greeting - but there is nothing at all negative in 'dear'.
dear
adj. dear?er, dear?est-
Loved and cherished my dearest friend.
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Greatly valued; precious lost everything dear to them.
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Highly esteemed or regarded. Used in direct address, especially in salutations Dear Lee Dawson.
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Earnest; ardent ?This good man was a dear lover and constant practicer of angling? (Izaak Walton).
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Obsolete. Noble; worthy.
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Heartfelt It is my dearest wish.
n.
- One that is greatly loved.
- An endearing, lovable, or kind person.
adv.
- With fondness; affectionately.
So I think pedantry is not called for. Undue attention to these formal rules with ostentation is also not a very admirable thing.
Whether it be 'peace' or 'dear' each is acceptable in my opinion.
Regards.
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Peace be upon you Edip,
You are misinterpreting the verses. Abraham never told them what he would do specifically or exactly. He told them that he would do a TRICK, TRAP, or A PLAN against their idols. The word KaYD, as you want us to believe, does not mean destroy, smash, break. Most likely they never expected him to break them; they expected something silly, as some people are expecting something silly from my "prophecy"!
Yes, the translation I used was off on the word Kayd, it correctly means "scheme/plan", but how does that change my position? Abraham told them clearly that he was going to scheme against thier idols. Yes or no?
They had no clue what he meant with it. Otherwise, they would most likely guard them day and night, imprison or banish Abraham before he fulfilled the act. You are insulting Abraham's intelligence by claiming that he told people that he was going to break their idols, risking his safety and success of his pedagoical plan.
You are insulting the FEARLESSNESS of the messengers. Musa stood before Firaun and his court and challenged the enemy face to face, now you want us to believe that Abraham should have been scared and concealed the truth? YOU want us to beleive that Abraham should fear men instead of the God? Did you not read the verse? He told them he would execute his plan WHEN THEY TURNED THIER BACKS. True, they did not know he would break them, but he told them CLEARLY he was going to scheme against them.
You are also undermining the devotion of idolworshipers to their idols; if they new exactly what Abraham was going to do, they would not sleep on his threat.
They underestimated the messenger of the God and must have took him for a joke, because he told them clearly he had a scheme for when they turned thier backs.
Besides, his people did not recall that Abraham was going to break their idols, they recalled that Abraham was talking against their idols. Recalling someone talking against something is different than recalling someone doing a particular act against something. You are confusing both.
What was the "talk" that they heard?
Abraham gave them a VAGUE warning and surprised them by morning. What I am doing with Ali Sina is very similar to that.
With a cross word puzzle? For the 19th of Feb?
As for Moses, are we required to parrot him?
We are instructed to follow the examples set for us by the messengers.
Are we limited with what Moses or another messenger did?
NO, but the God is giving us guidance to follow, that is the best method.
I do not think so. I believe that as long as the means of delivering the message does not violate a divine principle, it is fine. Otherwise, using your logic, I can site the names of 27 messengers and their delivery of God's message and accuse you of following a wrong strategy by discussing God's message via computer; since none used the computer, except the most recent messenger who you deny.
Are you serious? First of all, a computer is a means of communication, just like writing a letter as Solomon did. Second, you calim rashad is a messenger, so how would I be violating according to YOUR position? You cant have it both ways. Lastly, I don't deny ANY messenger, but you should understand that a person is only a messenger at the time they are speaking TRUTH, any other time they are just "Kyle, Edip, Rashad, etc"
None of the messengers in the Quran asked his followers to mimick them or the acts of previous messengers.
Are the messengers examples for us to follow, yes or no?
I see that we have important methodological difference. You tend to even prohibit or reject the word DEAR as a greeting. I started having a good idea about your attitude, comprehension, and position on issues.
The God gave us a greeting that is BEST, because the goal is PEACE, so we wish those whom we come in contact with a greeting of PEACE to be upon them.
I guess we would not be able to work together as a united force.
United in what? Not 19, not salaat, not hajj, not ramadan, what would we be united on?
But I would ALWAYS work with you in that which promotes good, like charity, helping faith freedom understand that "muslims" are not the proper description for terrorists, etc. Basically, I help in all that is good.
But, this does not mean we have to work against each other, eiether.
Debating is not working againt each other. I am against the creation of sects, and I am agaisnt joining with a group that hold 19 as partner to the God, wether realized or not. I say that because when I was deep in that same trial, after Layth helped me to see my error, I stepped back and looked at my posts and articles and saw that I had 19's everywhere, when I escaped that the whole message started to open up. I hope that you will see the same.
Perhaps the best strategy is not discussing anything with each other. Of course, you are free to criticize me.
My critisisms are for your philosophy, not you. If I met you today I would hug you as a friend, I respect your struggle, but I long for the day that you shed the 19 partner and use your talents to help us.
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Peace be upon you Idris and Edip,
D Idris, Edip does not know me that well D
PS Why do you think that Idolfree is not starting his mails with Bismillah, like Solomon?
Probably because I am here studying and debating, not writing letters to a Queen.
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Peace be upn you Truth,
So I think pedantry is not called for. Undue attention to these formal rules with ostentation is also not a very admirable thing.
Whether it be 'peace' or 'dear' each is acceptable in my opinion.
Thank you for your opinion. Please tell me how you understand the following statement;
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what God does not greet you with it, and they say in their minds "If only God tortures us because (of) what we say." ...
What was the greeting the God instructed us to say? We have to understand that we are supposed to be creating a CULTURE , so that it can develop righteous beings devoted to PEACE.
That is why we say "Salaam"
That is why Jews say "Shalom"
That is why Ancinet Egyptians said "Hetep"
That is why Christains say "Peace be with you, and also with you"I don't really have a problem with "Dear", but I am pointing out that you can determine a lot of things by the WHAT PEOPLE SAY.
(4730) (RK) If we will, we can expose them for you, so that you can recognize them just by looking at them. However, you can recognize them by the way they talk. GOD is fully aware of all your works.
So in conclusion, you are not under any compulsion by myself to say "Peace", but I will stick to the message of the God and continue to give the BEST greeting possible,knowing that what I say has an EFFECT, and is not meaningless.
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There are plenty of occassions I have noticed a clear favoritism to 19ers followers of false messenger Rashad Al Khalifah cult as they can get away with anything else including personal attacks.
The good which happened that Free Minds had make me a much more firm believer in God Almighty message and firm belief that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Last Prophet and Last Messenger.
The articles and posts which do idolized Rashad Al Khalifah and his faulty code 19 has driven me to much more close to Islam which btw I was drifting.
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Peace Truth,
I don't think that there is anything wrong with greeting someone in the normal way in English - I know the Koran says answer with an equal or better greeting - but there is nothing at all negative in 'dear'.
And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet with a better (greeting) than it or return it; surely Allah takes account of all things.
The word rendered as greeting is HAYYA. This word means to give life. I understand this verse differently. Can anyone explain?
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The articles and posts which do idolized Rashad Al Khalifah and his faulty code 19 has driven me to much more close to Islam which btw I was drifting.
What a lousy reason to stop drifting, KGB!
Strentghening fate by looking at the fault or perceived fault of a group, to me, is one of the most ridiculous way of continuing believing in something.
Let me illustrate your pathetic argument
Let's assume, I believe that 2+3 is 7. But, I add two apples to three apples and count them and I do not get the number 7. I start drifting. Then, I learn that a fringe group believes that 2+3 is 5. I find it a faulty idea and I stop drifting. Now I believe that 2+3 is indeed 7 D
No wonder you do not get the message of 19!
Peace,
Edip -
Stupid idiotic analysis based on mockery and foolishness just like the code 19 illogical reasoning to prove it a miracle.
19ers are not the first or last enemy of the Prophet who God Almighty has commanded us to follow there were hadith writers who created doubts about the authenticity of Qur'an by including fabricated stories about goat chewing up two verses or some one named Imam Mehdi has the original Qur'an which has plenty more verses and chapters.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed messengership by calling himself better than Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and he was Jesus, Marry, Imam Mehdi, the promised hindus avtar according to me he was a mad man. Mirza had the same sologan as 19ers false Messenger Rashad Al Khalifah that he has come to unite Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus. So keep following the fase Messengers and prophets I am sure there will be plenty more coming. I am at peace following Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as commanded by God Almighty.
Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?
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Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
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Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?
This is just a hillarious question, since it is asked by KGB. (Do I need to tell what KGB stand for?).
Well, for myself, let me answer this question with answers that it deserves
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CIA would be much happier keeping people like in the middle east so that they could continue using you and your acts as pretext to exploit its resources.
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My organization was first funded by BAHAIS, then MOSSAD, then KGB, then CIA, and in the near future we are hoping that we will get great funding from MARS.
Peace,
Edip -
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Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
Suspicions are honest concern after reading topics where people are trying to create doubts about the authenticity of Qur'an message. This suspicion virus created by false messenger Rashad Al Khalifah to justify deleting two verses from Qur'an and to prove code 19 a miracle. This suspicions regarding Qur'an message is growing and unfortunately Free Minds are playing a big role in promoting this sick idea of corruption of the message.
It is not spying. The messages are on the open discussion forum.
Backbite. Absolutely not. I said it right on your own forum even if I say this on different forums it would not be backbite simply because I am doing this for the purpose of keping the muslims informed about this rising fitna.
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Salaam All,
One of the dangers with debate is that it often is accompanied by an air of competition, wherein we begin to take sides as we can see in this thread. If indeed Islam is the way chosen for us by Allah, does it not stand on its own merit? Does Allah... or Hu's deen need champions for its cause? When we take sides in intellectual gymnastics, is that not fitna?
The structure of the Qur'an demonstrates many mathematical correspondences, the occurences of 19 being just one. Recognizing this does not make one an idolater, anymore than one who recognizes the metaphorical similarities between the Qur'an and the Matrix, both being examples of ijtahid .
Can we all not take our intellects/interpretations so seriously that it keeps us from being able to share each others understanding and experience?
Practice... makes perfect! The practice of Islam leads to Oneness and Unity, if our words and actions do not promote/lead to this result, we cannot claim to practice Islam, no matter how intellectually stunning or clever our debates/arguments/discussions may be.
Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya -
Peace be upon you Olusanya,
One of the dangers with debate is that it often is accompanied by an air of competition,
I would disagree, it is when debating(hajja) turns into baseless (no proof) arguing (jidala) that causes the problem.
We CANNOT reject debating(hajja) , the God has included this in our system.
(683) And this (is) Our argument (hujjatuna), We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable.
(2197) ...wala jidala fee alhajji ...
And NO arguing in the debate...Yes, there is nothing wrong with free thinking, but we need to start putting some proof behnd the statements, I am willing to PROVE my statements about symbolism. And by that , those who witness can see how the God proves the truth throuigh His words.
We do not take a number out of all the numbers and uphold it as if no other numbers are mentioned.
Symbolism is verified in the reading.