4:43 No ablution for women??
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Salaam,
the last thing that it would accur to me for ordering to wash only after being with the women, ist that it is in favour of males. I would say it is rather the opposite. I do think that since everybody is required to wash, the particular mention of men is more like insistance on their hygiene indeed or forgetfulness more observable in them but not on women. Women are indeed addressed, since they are the believers, but it is only after touching women and not men that they insist.
As to junub I have studied it as much as I could and I come to the conclusion that the most likely meaning, bearing in mind where it is mentioned and that no particular way of purification is meant for it, that it is mental dispersion, having the mind on other things than salat and being unable to concentrate on salaat. To me this lack of contration is indeed a big obstacle, the washing and concentraitng in washing may be a way to withdraw focus from mental activity and so be ready for salat. I have seen it translated and ritual impurity, but I have come to the conclusion that in the Qur'an there is not such a thing a ritual impurity and certainly not anything that points to ?junub as such a thing.
The word junub in the context akes me think of a common idiom at the time of revelation that later was forgotten, because nothing is said to make it clear, and etimologically it points to "sides", as if the mind was by the sides and not in the centre, like for instance the French expression "? cot?" to mean that something is far from target, completelly off.
I must mention concerning this mentionning of the men, the work of an Indian Muslim, Ashghar Ali Engineer who died not long ago, may he rest in peace. He has done a lot for reviewing Islam and has studied the Qur'an and concluded that concerning men Qunr'an takes a "duties" outlook, concerning women it takes a rights outlook. I completely agree with that. That is why men are constantly reminded that they should do this or that, and not women. It is very useful to look at it that way because it becomes turn out to be consistent indeed.
Salaam
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Peace ikhan bay.
Ablution is two parts
Bathing/washing after "sexual activity" ablution part (1) and ablution part (2)1- Ablution part(1) bathing /washing our body/parts... and/or after going to the "toilet" can be done by everyone ,no instruction how to do it (common sense).
God has simply said bathe/wash. Or if you are travelling/ill and no water or facility is available then you can t.
My understanding of " Junuban fattaharu" means "after sexual activity ,bathe/wash yourselves".
2- Ablution part (2)has got 4 specific instructions to follow or use "Tayammum" if you are travelling /ill/...
The instruction in part (1) to bathe/wash after "sexual activity" is there for both sexes.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace all,
Good logic so after sex ablution is for both sexes? But quran says if had intercourse with a woman ??? ?
Female-Female Both should take a bath, Male-Female only male should bathe since he is the one who had intercourse with a woman? -\ ?
Looks like a woman can jump straight to salat after having sex, if she is not lesbian of course.
Forgive me if I am missing your point here, dont want to cause any annoyance.Huruf, thats an interesting interpretation of the word junub, I couldt find much about this word on the internet.
That's a riveting sentiment about quran having different outlooks, I certainly will have to think about it.
Thank you for sharing the authors name.Best Regards.
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good logic tFrom where do you get hat ittaharu is bathe. Tahharu is purify but not necessarily through physical operation. It does not state a particular action to that end apart from the igsilu.
I do not see either from where you get that junub is somethign to do with sex.
Salaam
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Peace.
That is how I understand the verse.
Other explanations for "Junuban" do not make sense to me. Because you "Purify " from what and how?
God bless .
Peace. -
Peace huruf.
I meant to give you the part of where I got bathe/wash from
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From the word " taghtassilu"?
Thanks.
Peace. -
But that is the same, you have to wash any way, because before the salaat you must wash, anyway, and I do not see that the washing is different from the washing for the prayer which must be done anyway. In 5.6 there is an imperative wash face, etc., while in 4.46 it says till you wash yourselves. It is almost parallel, you wash before prayers. In the translations they do some joggling to get the traditional canonical law for "purification", but that, as some say, must be judaism, because I cannot see it inthe Qur'an.
Regarding purification, check all the occurrences in Qur'an you will see that purification is not washing, for the purpose of prayers you may wash, but the fact that you purify does not mean that you wash. You do not purify of something but purify for something. If you purify for a certain purpose you must do whatever is necessary for that purpose, it may not be washing and mostly it is not washing. of purifies prophets, doe snot mean that prophets are not pure, but even not being impure they are purifiable because only God is aboslutely pure, I guess.
Purifying has nothing to do with religious ritual. It is something that is done for certain purpose.
Look at 2.228 the one whre they say that women cannot pray with the period. There is a purification but certainly it cannot mean to wash, since what they mean to do is have sex, how are you going to purfy for sex whn you have after to purify for prayers. The have ben caught in their ritualisation of islam in gneeral and of prayers and. lso see that junub comes right after intoxicationw here you do not know what you say, that and by the meaning and smantical connotation of the root and word I thought that most likely it was a mental or animical more than a physical condition, because in both ayas there is having sex with women mentioned apart, it would therefor be a repetition not to mention that there is no hint at all in the whole of Qur'an of junub having anything to do with that at all. It is completely made up. Nice invention, ritual impurity and go and find out what ritual impurity is.
But that is the way how islam, from a simple (opposite of complicated) and straightforward common sense conception of life was turned into ritualist mine field of harams and so forth.
Salaam
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Peace huruf.
Iam not saying "purifying" means wash.
I am saying when it goes with "Junuban" in , it means wash.
GOD has shown us in by using " "faghtassilu". This word clarifies for us it is bathe/wash.
and have the same subject-Ablution- instructions.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
The washing is provided anyway for anybody that is going to pray and in 4.43 it does say that they should not pray if they are junub but after washing, same as if they are and, intoxicated, it expliciting that they must remember, must not ommit washing, that even in their fogged or distracted mind in order to pray they must wash, wich will help clear the minds too, at least washing or water is used to bring people back tot heir senses and to clear minds when people are tired, particularly mentally tired.
In 5.6 I doubt that it is saying to those junub to wash twice, because they should have already washed by the mere fact that they are going to pray as stated at the start of the aya, and if it reminds in ase of junub, then why use a word which does not mean wash although washing theoretically may be included as a way of purifying. It must be those things which are included in purifying beyond the washing, since they are two different concepts and both are mentionned separate and clearly. In 5.6 and 4.43, if washing is required for prayers, anything that is to do with prayers in that sense will be together with washing. But besides washing there is a purify for the junub state.
The "ritual impurity" thing seems to me made up which, on top of it, if it is not said in what it consists and therefore says nothing. Unless I can see any grounds to believe something better, I do tend to think that it is talking about a mental state, because if it was physical it would indeed require washing, ok, but when purify is added to the washing, I do not think it is a repetition but that there is something more, something that, as said, I think is mental or animical, which also cannot be surprising, because the mental and animal weights very heavily in the ability to pray with real concentration.
Salaam
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Men and women are equal (in rights, et al, & before God of course), but are NOT the same!
Peace
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Peace
O you who have believed, do not approach prayer as long as you are intoxicated (not in full possession of senses) until you know what you are saying or in a state of impurity, except travelling on road, until you have washed (BATHED). And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands . Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving. 443
Without WADHU we can approach prayer. There is no mention of WADHU and MAHEEDH in the above verse. If Muslims want to add WADHU and MAHEEDH as prohibitions for SALAT then at their own risk.
They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say It is a filth/dirt, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loves those who turn unto Him, and loves those who have a care for cleanness 2222
by the way WADHU is NOT for SALAT.
Thanks
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Peace
for 56 click below
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606811.0
Thanks
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I have looked into ocassions int he Qur'an where qawama is used and in those referring to the salaat independent of time of the day it employs qawama I think it really means to do salaat or start to do it. I cannot relzate exclusively to the morning.
Salaam
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Peace huruf
Allah never forgets anything
For Hajj are the months well known. If any one undertakes that duty therein, Let there be no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do, (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (With you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, o ye that are wise. 2197
They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say They are a hurt and a pollution So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean.......... 2222
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity Except when travelling on the road, until after washing your whole body .......... 443
Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows that is impiety 53
When we assume or say that WADHU is FOR salat and when at the same time Allah has not mentioned WADHU along with impurity and intoxication in His prohibition list, then we are questioning the wisdom of Allah. Mind well Quran is a perfect Book of Allah and HE has not left out /omitted /neglected anything from HIS Book.
And there is no creature on the earth or bird that flies with its wings except communities like you. We have not neglected in the Book a thing. Then unto their Lord they will be gathered 638
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction 482
If Allah says to perform WADHU befor Salat and then forgets to mention Wadhu along with impurity and intoxication in His prohibition list then there is a clear contradiction.
All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth 393
We are following the same way as the Children of Israel did. They made some food unlawful for themselves without the permission of Allah and how better are we when we are adding Wadhu as a prohibition for prayer apart from impurity and intoxication without His permission. We should follow the commands of 443 and not whims and conjectures of Bukhari and co.
When I say that I can pray when in a state of impurity, you will prevent me from doing so by referring to 56. When I say that I can pray when intoxicated you will prevent me from doing so by referring 56 but when I say that I can pray without WADHU then you can't prevent me because you do not have any evidence to prevent me.
OLD HABITS DIE HARD.
Thanks
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About habits, it is the habit in fact that no ablution is required if none of the mentionned things happen between one assalat and the next one.
I want to study this more carefully and check all the factors. Right now I am taken up by other tasks and I will not have the mental room nor the time to do it. So I will leave it pending till I can get back to it.
Salaam
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Salamun Alaikum.
The key question of this thread is why Qur'an only explicitly mandates ritual cleansing before salaat after physical sexual activity with women, while for physical sexual activity with men a similar mandate only seems to be implied or indirectly understood.
In case a person becomes unfortunate victim of a forced sexual activity by a man, there may be situations where the victim may need to refrain from bathing for a reasonable time (sometimes upto a day or more) to preserve the proofs of the crime. Perhaps the absence of explicit directive to bath for sex with men accomodate such cases. This is just one of the factors to be considered in this discussion.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
I could be way off with this as I can't read/speak Arabic, but could the order to purify/bathe aimed at men also be for hygienic purposes, rather than purely spiritual reasons?
I wonder, if it's for hygienic reasons, would it be more important to remind men to wash afterwards (I mean, are there any extra hygiene risks or problems for men that women may not face?) and just imply the same for women? -
The addressing in 443 is unbound by gender. You have to face that fact. It is anyone who considers themselves to be amen. Perhaps the women go to bed with other women here? (sarcasm)
If it has to do with washing whatsoever is yet another question.
Be of one in God
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Peace all.
So I am kind of new here and have been interested to see if others have noticed this but didnt find anyone clarifying this. Maybe its an obvious thing to some but frankly I dont understand the part of 443 about sex. So if a man had sex with a woman he should take a bath before approaching salat, but the woman who had sex with him should not? Quran says to perform ablution if one had a sexual contact with a woman, it doesnt just say "had sex".
Peace,
Men I can understand being told about bathing after sex, because I/we can get used to being grimy/dirty because of our profession or habits but women usually get hygiene lessons from other women by example or encouragement. IMHO
God bless
peace