To Those Who Prohibit Reciting Prophet's Name For Shahadat and Duroot.
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Peace Java Latte
Do not you worry; you are allowed to pray for other people and they can also come true. It may depend on your own status with God.
Be of one with God
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Peace Armanaziz
Interestingly, this is also true for charitable work. Should we help the poor? One may conclude that we should not ? because our help will not help the poor unless Allah wills so. One may even think ? the poor are poor because Allah wanted them to be poor ? who are we to challenge what Allah decided for them and try to change their fate? May be being poor is in their best interest! May be Allah will repay them manifold in afterlife for their suffering in the world. This line of thinking is also valid only if we assume that we are supposed to do charity only for the sake of the poor. No! We need to do charity for the sake of our own selves! Allah wanted us to be kind, cooperative, helping and friendly ? we have to strive to be so with our effort, with our wealth, with our prayer ? then the ultimate result is solely a decision of Allah. Upon Him the believers should rely.
you must have read Quran and still you did not find the numerous verses wherein believers are advised/commanded/encouraged to help. What is SADAQAH? What is ANFIQU? What is HAQ payable on the day of harvest? there are clear guidelines for mankind in respect of charity to help the poor, the needy, the wayfarer, the debtors, the orphans. there are ALSO clear guidelines to marry off widows and orphans.
Is there any verse wherein it says you can/cannot help if Allah wills. Allah has commanded the believers to do good deeds and to help the poor, but nowhere in the Quran is the permission given to mankind to pray for others. If any one has a proof then let them produce it.
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The correct meaning of Shafa is PRAYING OR INTERCEDING ON BEHALF OF ANOTHER TO THE EFFECT THAT HE MAY BE SHOWN FAVOR.
Question why should I ask ARMANAZIZ to pray for me? Why should I not pray for myself? When I say Armanaziz to pray for me then i believe that my prayers cannot reach Allah or will not be accepted and consider Armamaziz as the nearest to Allah and whose prayers Allah responds.
Did Allah PROHIBIT individuals from asking help or favors? Did Allah give permission to mankind to pray for others.
And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive (Al-Baqara 45
485 Whoever intercedes a nice intercession will have for him a share of it and whoever intercedes an evil intercession will have for him a piece of it, and upon all things Allah happens to be a Controller
Whoever intercedes for a good cause will have a reward therefrom; and whoever intercedes for an evil cause will have a burden therefrom. And ever is Allah, over all things, a Keeper
Is this intercession with ALLAH? It is worldly matters wherein mankind intercedes.
1724 And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, "My Lord, have mercy upon them as they brought me up small."
It is Allah who is SAYING/URGING to the believers to pray for mercy for their parents. When you pray for mercy then you are not doing anything of your own but following the instructions of Allah. But when you pray for others then you are following conjectures for which you do not have permission from Allah.
Peace java
(1297) They said "O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins. Indeed, we were wrongdoers.."
(129 He said "Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
The sons of Jacob asked their father to pray for them.
Prophets and angels are given the permission to ask for others, but for mankind there is such permission granted and neither in the Quran is there any verse wherein a prayer of mankind is mentioned.
So know, , that there is no deity except Allah and ask forgiveness for your sin and for the believing men and believing women. And Allah knows of your movement and your resting place. (Muhammad 19)
A clear COMMAND to the prophet to ASK FOR FORGIVENESS FOR OTHER BELIEVERS
DO YOU FIND SUCH COMMAND TO THE BELIEVERS
ANY ACTION/BELIEF/PRACTICE NOT MENTIONED IN THE QURAN OR SUPPORTED BY THE QURAN IS A CLEAR CONJECTURE
And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges He said "O Noah! He is not of thy family For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" said, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from asking that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have mercy upon me, I will be among the losers."1145/46/47
BEFORE PRAYING FOR OTHERS JUST CONFIRM WHETHER HE IS RIGHTEOUS OR NOT
thanks
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Caring and wishing well upon others is not forbidden and while obviously not an implicit command there is nothing which says you cannot. And we are not different on a value foundation compared to prophets and messengers and I find that you make an excessive elevation of these people. They may have been really good men and women, but it is their own devotion and work to improve themselves which made them reach this condition. Good is rewarded with good.
Righteous is a term pretty much abused and it all depends on what you consider righteous; if it is what Quran teaches in behavior and deed or the dogmatic religionists and/or misinterpreted passages. Good are those who do good and live in the light of God.
Intercession is another question and some traditionalists believe that Muhammad will intercede for them on the promised day, but these people will be judged by whatever they have done in their lives and there is not the slightest injustice and the result cannot be affected by any pleas.
You are not able to make God forget bad deeds for those you care for, but you may get help in warning them by the spirit of God that perhaps they may change or protect some people who have not done anything particularly wrong such as your son and daughter by the grace of God.
It is not impossible to change lifestyle in life either from a very bad person to a goodly person and be forgiven for the bad things in life since you changed. And good deeds weigh much heavier on the scales than bad ones and also permanently changing and remaining on an upright path will remit sins as well. Getting away from sins in its entirety is pretty difficult though wherefore good deeds are splendid to have in the baggage. Not an excuse to sin though so minimizing them is best and deliberate sinning because you think you can take it is really bad for your soul.
We may keep the above in mind in our daily encounters with people that we prejudge and treat differently based on our prejudices and we should try to keep friendly and helpful even with those who may not seem the very best humans, in strategical ways.
Be of one with God
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We learn from the Quran and Quran is a guidance for mankind
Caring and wishing is not forbidden while obviously asking to Allah for them is not permitted by Allah.
whatever may be status of the prophet it is immaterial when asking for others to Allah as long as they have been given the permission by Allah to ASK for OTHERS
When Allah said to Noah "Do not ask me of things of which you have no knowledge" What does this mean? Noah was a prophet but still he was not in a position to know that his own son was "GHAIR SALEH" UNRIGHTEOUS CONDUCT. So how do we know each other? Are we not prohibited to ask for others who are of UNRIGHTEOUS CONDUCT through the example of Noah?
You consider SALEH anything but it is certain that it is something good and Ghair Saleh is other than the good.
Why should we do something that is not permitted by Allah and that is not mentioned in the Quran? Ask for yourself and believe and hope that Allah will respond to you. If Allah WILLS then He will respond to your prayers if He does not then be patient.
Why I do not pray as the sectarians pray? Because I do not find such nonsense in the Quran
Say I find not in that which is revealed unto me aught prohibited to an eater that he eat thereof, except it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or swine flesh - for that verily is foul - or the abomination which was immolated to the name of other than Allah. But whoso is compelled (thereto), neither craving nor transgressing, (for him) lo! thy Lord is Forgiving, Merciful 6145
Why Prophet replied "I DO NOT FIND IN THAT WHICH IS REVEALED TO ME" Because he is not speaking of his own but by the Quran. Everything, whether it is a belief or a practice or a ritual should be authorised by Allah OTHERWISE it is CONJECTURE
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A direct result of Qur'an being selective about the messengers is that we too have no choice but to be selective about messenger. When someone talk about Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Salih or Muhammad - we immediately know they are messengers - but when they talk about Buddha or Arjuna - we cannot be 100% sure (at least based on Qur'anic evidence).
But is Muhammad the one mostly talked about in the quran? Why select him before the other ones mentioned in the quran? Can we really consider hadith n sunna trustworthy information about the prophets/messengers? If not, then we have to rely upon what the quran gives as information. Whom of the messengers/prophets is described most?
Peace brother
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We learn from the Quran and Quran is a guidance for mankind
Caring and wishing is not forbidden while obviously asking to Allah for them is not permitted by Allah.
whatever may be status of the prophet it is immaterial when asking for others to Allah as long as they have been given the permission by Allah to ASK for OTHERS
- So it is forbidden from me to ask Allah to show guidance to a certain relative so that he may mend his ways? What if I prayed for my relative to learn a lesson from a certain event and thereby become more sensible and righteous? Forbidden?
Everything, whether it is a belief or a practice or a ritual should be authorised by Allah OTHERWISE it is CONJECTURE
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So everything which is not mentioned in the quran is conjecture? Everything??? Has Allah stated that nobody ever was guided except by the quran (even up till today)?
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I hope we are not mixing up intercession on the day of judgement with praying on someone's behalf. That's two different things.
I do agree that I find it stupid to ask someone else to pray for you. It's a habit in e.g. Pakistan.. where people say like "pray for me", or "remember me in your prayers".
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Tell me where it says that you cannot pray for another person. It has nothing to do with sectarian thinking. And stop calling it nonsense about it for you have not found anything that would say otherwise.
The son of Noah refused to heed the warning of his father more than once and took the admonition lightly which means he may not have really believed in his father's prophethood. God was to annihilate the civilization with a quick judgment and since then it became a case of attempt of intercession. God had already told what was about to happen. And it was clear what God willed in the narrated story. Noah became sentimental and emotional against his personal judgment so that it was clouded.
But the actors of Quran are asking on the behalf of others there such as Moses is mentioning about his brother Aaron to God. These are just among few of the examples that such actions are in no way forbidden.
Abraham was begging God about his father UNTIL he realized he was beyond saving. Obviously the word used in Arabic is misinterpreted because he is hardly asking straightly for forgiveness for someone who is doing wrong, but he is asking that God shows the way for his father until he in his stubborness finally realizes that his father is too stuck in his ways. Abraham abhorred the falsehood of what they had invented, but he was still very kind and merciful and sought in every way to change his father despite his unfatherly behavior. This kindness is what made him in such a good standing with God, in case people have missed it.
Of course Abraham knew that God was not going to forgive his father unless he changed his ways. The community in which Abraham lived was lost in their ways and so much that he left that place.
And you can, for example, ask God for protection of your daughter or son in your absence for their wellbeing. This kind of reliance shows your faith and also since you live (hopefully) by the Spirit of God so you share it and have influence on the time line. You are part of the 'We', those who are harmonized with God.
Be of one with God
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But is Muhammad the one mostly talked about in the quran? Why select him before the other ones mentioned in the quran? Can we really consider hadith n sunna trustworthy information about the prophets/messengers? If not, then we have to rely upon what the quran gives as information. Whom of the messengers/prophets is described most?
Peace brother
Salamun alaika brother Zulf.
You are sometimes going out of the point of discussion and being unnecessarily harsh with me. I am not a fan of "so called" hadis and sunnah any more than you are. I do not take for granted any folklore about Muhammad (pbuh) other than what is explicitly vetted by Qur'an. However, for me Qur'an depicts enough of the personality and life of Muhammad (pbuh) to respect him as an individual - not just a shadowy figure in the history - just like I respect you as an individual - not as a bot or something.
My intention was to discuss the directive of "non-differentiation" with like-minded folks like you so that our collective understanding of this requirement improves. I tried to argue that, in principle, "do not differentiate" does not mean "do not be selective".
When I have decided to spend 80% of my personal study time to study Qur'an and may be 20% for other books (including Bible / Geeta etc.) I have already chosen to pay most attention to the message brought by Muhammad over other messengers - peace be upon them all. I believe and understand that all messengers brought the same universal message of peace for mankind, following any of them correctly is sufficient for right guidance - and on that basis they are all at par. That is how I do not differentiate among them. But my personal knowledge, exposure and circumstances have led me to be selective of one messenger over others. And I am not hypocritical enough to deny that.
When it comes to the issue of blessing and "darood" - I do not find any problem in blessing or praising one prophet (be it Muhammad, Jesus, Moses or Siddhartha), a selected few, or all of them. I definitely do not believe blessing on Muhammad or any specific prophet is at all essential for salvation in afterlife. However, nor do I see such practice violating the directive of non-differentiation in any way. Just like all other gifts to us by Allah, messengers are also gifts to us - blessing on them; be it one of them, a few or all; is a form of showing our acknowledgement and appreciation of this gift. Just like our prayer and blessings for our parents is a kind of appreciation of the wonderful gift that parents are to us. If a person has recently lost his father and hence focusing more on blessing and prayer for his father - would you say he is differentiating against his living mother? If I am focusing on the message of one particular messenger - he will have a more prominent space in my thought - and may be subject to greater appreciation and blessings for me. As long as we are conscious that all our submission and prayers are to Allah alone - I do not see this practice to be harmful in any way.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salaam, I will answer based on what I know so far. Why should we pray for Mohammad or any Prophet in Salats? Aren't Salats to contact God and to praise God?? Why should Humans be involved in it? Yes, we can make supplications for others, but that's different than the the prayer/Salat God told us to do in Qur'an. When God talks about Salats, he never says to involve humans or anyone else in it than God alone. If you read when God talks about Salat, it is always about God and how we should pray. It never involves others.
Even before knowing this all from Qur'an, when I used to pray in Sunni way, I used to find praising Mohammad, Abraham, and their families/companions in Salat very disturbing and just did not feel right about it.We can honor messengers, we can respect others too just like we make supplications for ourselves and our family etc and should be thankful to God. Messengers will honored if we follow God as that's what there message was about by God's guidance. There message was about God, not about themselves. They were just messengers of God.
Of course, I am still learning. So I can be wrong somewhere, but I am sure I am right here. God knows the best though and may God always guide us.
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Salamun Alaika FindingRightPath.
You raise another interesting point - why darood in salaat. The members of this forum are highly divided in what salaat actually means - everyone seem to have their own definitions ) For me establish salaat means establish respect (for Allah). The musallah or "salat ritual" is merely a form of expression of our respect. The very idea that a fixed format of this ritual is essential for our salvation is problematic - it gives rise to all sort of sectarian attitude - rather we should view this as a "customary practice" that traditionally has come down to us as a recommended form of expression of our respect for Allah.
If I understand correctly the last segment of the traditional salaat ritual - is a free form segment. Here one can pray any dua' etc. that one chooses. Our so called "Imams" of questionable judgement have tried to standardize the duas - if you find the traditional dua and darood not upto your liking - why not feel free to change to what you like? Just FYI - I am also trying to change. As long as your prayers are for "good" things, not too much focused on specific "worldly" gain and addressed exclusively to Allah - I do not see any problem - neither in logical thinking, nor from a traditional or Quranic perspective. However, this does not give us any reason to denounce the traditional practice or practitioner as "Mushrik" etc. Most of them pray like parrots without understanding what they are saying anyway - that's more of a problem than that they are blessing on the prophet.
Oh, By the way, I am not overly obsessed that in the salaat ritual I cannot mention or think of anything except God. Even when I recite Surah Fatiha - I am saying "Guide us to the straight route, - route of those whom You approved upon - not who have anger upon them ? and nor (of) the deviating ones." That already has reference of "other people" in it - though not by name. I do not believe in "a deity" in the heaven who is obsessed with people setting aside time to remember "Him alone".
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salamun Alaika FindingRightPath.
You raise another interesting point - why darood in salaat. The members of this forum are highly divided in what salaat actually means - everyone seem to have their own definitions For me establish salaat means establish respect (for Allah). The musallah or "salat ritual" is merely a form of expression of our respect. The very idea that a fixed format of this ritual is essential for our salvation is problematic - it gives rise to all sort of sectarian attitude - rather we should view this as a "customary practice" that traditionally has come down to us as a recommended form of expression of our respect for Allah.
If I understand correctly the last segment of the traditional salaat ritual - is a free form segment. Here one can pray any dua' etc. that one chooses. Our so called "Imams" of questionable judgement have tried to standardize the duas - if you find the traditional dua and darood not upto your liking - why not feel free to change to what you like? Just FYI - I am also trying to change. As long as your prayers are for "good" things, not too much focused on specific "worldly" gain and addressed exclusively to Allah - I do not see any problem - neither in logical thinking, nor from a traditional or Quranic perspective. However, this does not give us any reason to denounce the traditional practice or practitioner as "Mushrik" etc. Most of them pray like parrots without understanding what they are saying anyway - that's more of a problem than that they are blessing on the prophet.
Oh, By the way, I am not overly obsessed that in the salaat ritual I cannot mention or think of anything except God. Even when I recite Surah Fatiha - I am saying "Guide us to the straight route, - route of those whom You approved upon - not who have anger upon them ? and nor (of) the deviating ones." That already has reference of "other people" in it - though not by name. I do not believe in "a deity" in the heaven who is obsessed with people setting aside time to remember "Him alone".
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanSalaam,
I don't like the fix format of Salaat either. What you said about Surah Fatiha is true, but the person praying is seeking God's guidance for himself or herself. Surah Faiiha is all about God only. Yes, it talks about others, but what I meant that God never mentions others meaning God never mentions to pray for others in Salaat. Salaat is about remembrance of God, and an act of personal contact with God. However, when I was Sunni and read Durood's translation as I was curious what I was reading in my Salaat, it was about giving blessings to Abraham, his family, and then giving blessings to Mohammad and his companions. That's what I remember. The durood had nothing to do with praying to God, but it was about Prophets and their families/companions.
That's my pov, I might learn slightly differently as I read and understand the rest of Qur'an and seeking God's guidance. So far, I think I am right though.
Others can have their opinions in it, but I don't think it is right to say we prohibited reciting Prophet's name and Durood. We can not prohibit anything. If anything is prohibited, it is because of God. No human can change it even if he thinks he can by disillusioning himself for a while. -
You are sometimes going out of the point of discussion and being unnecessarily harsh with me.
Apologies for sounding harsh. I guess my wordings at times have a tendency to come across like that. Rest assured that I had no intention of being harsh, especially on a personal level, but sometimes I do end up harsh towards a certain concept or topic. Obviously it would be naive of me to think people don't feel it also on a personal level. We all do. So again, I apologize for any harshness from my side. And thanks for your elaborate reply on your stance.
Peace and cheers