Origin of Rakats (Units) in Salat
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They seem to be an invention for the sect Islam. Hadith seems to even admit that before Muhammad people prayed just two rakat in every prayer. I find that they may just be random nonsense/conjecture from a Paganistic mind. Although I find that originally the whole ritualistic prayer comes from Pagan worship. Strict ritualism often stems from there which was in order to please their gods as they materialized them so that they became individuals rather than an abstract entity that is in any direction and even within yourself and so omnipresent that a ritual in a particular direction seems silly. The prostration move itself is an ancient way of showing deep respect to an individual, like paying homage and the same people probably used their traditions and customs to pay respect to God as well. Quite natural. It could be that two prostrations was customary, however I doubt that they arose to standing between the bows to the ground but rather continued to kneel and going up and down. It may be that they sought eye contact to see the reaction of the one they prostrated to.
While the custom of prostration to others is more or less dead there is still a minor form we still use and that is the simple bowing of our head and in Asia there are still people who bow down 90 degrees. It is from the same tradition origin.
All in all; a prayer congregation is not wrong, but they ought not to portray God as something they can worship as an image of something. And God is not impressed by many words without deed and before you say it God already knows what is in your heart. And I sincerely doubt that God is impressed by parrotting the same phrase over and over again as if God is stupid and did not hear you the first time.
And prostration of the heart is the best glorification of God. Doing much good clearly beats out ritualistic behavior by far and reverence while in the heart is seen by our Master, God. You must enable the God inside of you (do not misinterpret my words) if you know what I mean.
Be of one in God
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Yeh, the whole thing is conjecture. The only certainty is that Salat is a ritual consisting of standing, bowing and prostrating. Mainstream muslim salat method is a perfect rip-off of Zoroastrian Namaz. As long as you recognise this and don't mandate it as the prescribed method, you are good.
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They seem to be an invention for the sect Islam. Hadith seems to even admit that before Muhammad people prayed just two rakat in every prayer. I find that they may just be random nonsense/conjecture from a Paganistic mind. Although I find that originally the whole ritualistic prayer comes from Pagan worship. Strict ritualism often stems from there which was in order to please their gods as they materialized them so that they became individuals rather than an abstract entity that is in any direction and even within yourself and so omnipresent that a ritual in a particular direction seems silly. The prostration move itself is an ancient way of showing deep respect to an individual, like paying homage and the same people probably used their traditions and customs to pay respect to God as well. Quite natural. It could be that two prostrations was customary, however I doubt that they arose to standing between the bows to the ground but rather continued to kneel and going up and down. It may be that they sought eye contact to see the reaction of the one they prostrated to.
While the custom of prostration to others is more or less dead there is still a minor form we still use and that is the simple bowing of our head and in Asia there are still people who bow down 90 degrees. It is from the same tradition origin.
All in all; a prayer congregation is not wrong, but they ought not to portray God as something they can worship as an image of something. And God is not impressed by many words without deed and before you say it God already knows what is in your heart. And I sincerely doubt that God is impressed by parrotting the same phrase over and over again as if God is stupid and did not hear you the first time.
And prostration of the heart is the best glorification of God. Doing much good clearly beats out ritualistic behavior by far and reverence while in the heart is seen by our Master, God. You must enable the God inside of you (do not misinterpret my words) if you know what I mean.
Be of one in God
Very nice post.
I like this sentence
"Strict ritualism often stems from there which was in order to please their gods as they materialized them so that they became individuals rather than an abstract entity that is in any direction and even within yourself and so omnipresent that a ritual in a particular direction seems silly."But, on the other hand, I do not agree on the second half of the post because the issue is not that someone is doing the repetition of movements and words during the ritual for God, but for himself. Of course God doesn't need our prayers & rituals, but we DO!
It is good for a man to impress with repetition and constancy the same thing, so to condition his "subconscious" mind and learn discipline and become steadfast in his devotion to God Alone.Peace
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Peace, Man of Faith.
And prostration of the heart is the best glorification of God. Doing much good clearly beats out ritualistic behavior by far and reverence while in the heart is seen by our Master, God.
Well said! bravo
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Neptin,
It is a delusion that there are prayer moves to be found in Quran. They mean other things, abstract meaning, while interpreted into physical moves. Sujud means deep show of respect but also showing you are devoted to someone, but not equal to the prostration move itself. Prostration is a way of showing sujud at best. Ruku is being humble. And as far as I know qum from which the standing position is traditionally derived has nothing to do with stance whatsoever. It means something like mindful, or recently I have noticed it may mean to give expression of.
Peace GODSubmitter,
Sorry I consider that also to be Paganistic behavior and not wanted from God nor something that would help us. Prayers, not rituals, can be an expression that we want something, but it is not a monotone braindead ritual with a recurring timing mechanism. Prayers themselves occur frequently in Quran and the actors pray when they need something, for example, Zachariah being inspired by Maryam's pregnancy prays to God for an heir and Moses by the well prays to God to provide for him since he has nothing.
But what they advance the most of in the realm of God is through their deeds and being mindful of God in their judgment in life.
Spontaneous glorification moves and decision to say a table prayer or be praying in the bedchamber is an individual decision, but the recited words should carry a distinct mindful meaning and not just parrotted to form a ritual that slavelikely needs to be upheld. You do it for thanksgiving or the need of the recited words exlusively and not because God needs your physical moves nor yourself. An example is reciting the first chapter of Quran or reciting the example Isa/Jesus/Isaiah gives in the Gospel or your own prayer composition, and that is because you ask for the recited words to come true and not due to ritualism.
Jesus prayed something like
"Oh Creator that is in Heaven, holy be your "name", let your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, give us today our daily bread, let us be forgiven for our debts as we forgive our debtors, and do not let us succumb to the temptations of the evil one".
Obviously it is a prayer asking for help to be able to be an upright man. Same purpose it is with chapter one of Quran. You ask for help to serve God in the best possible way. I think Jesus prayer is misinterpreted to wait so God's will is done on Earth but it is rather praying to let yourself and others do as God wills.
In all the prayer is focused at praying that you do better in life and forgiven when doing wrong and also getting help with forgiving others. The reminder of the repeated prayer is most beneficial to yourself that you repeat the words, ie remember what you say each time because you being one in God is supposed to carry out the things you pray for by getting the nearness of God. Affecting your heart and consciousness is what is important.
Be of one in God
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Thank you for your answer @Man of Faith
Peace
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Salaam all,
Thank you for your insights. I have done more research and gotten answers from those of other faiths since my last post. One of you said that "Muslim" Salat is a rip off of Zoroastrian "Namaz". It seems this is correct. I have learned from a Zoroastrian acquaintance that they also pray 5 times a day AND break their prayer into units. Considering that the 6 Hadith compilers (fabricators) were from Persia, this makes complete sense. And MOF, as for Salat positions being symbolic & not physical, with all due respect, I disagree. Look at the ancient religions from Arabia that still exist today & you will find that Gods Sunnah (way) doesn't change. The Jews, Sabeans (Mandaeans), Zoroastrians & Yazidis all STAND, BOW & PROSTRATE. And they all perform ablution. It is what it is and it has always been that way . That's how it looks according to all the evidence. And Quran gives us no reason to think otherwise. Peace!Aamer.
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Peace Aamer,
What if what you know from them is the guise of Paganism that just got into their practices, and if not Paganism is a remnant of a tradition of old that was not decreed by God specifically. Prostration is indeed a movement used in religion, but where does it come from? It is an ancient way of showing respect to a superior or other that you respect deeply and is not necessarily associated with religion; it just happen that while we do no longer physically prostrate with the forehead to the ground some people still do it towards God in the same manner, but it does not say that God advocated this behavior. Our ancestors begun to prostrate to God because this was the way they showed respect to a superior and it was further made lame through addition of ritualistic elements such as a number of different prostrations depending on the time of the day. You also need to consider that to make prostration make sense in the regard of God you need a materialized being you perform this act to, i.e. you create a "skyman", which makes an idol, and not to make things less worse traditional Muslims also assign the so-called Kabah in Mekka as a "focal point" worsening the case.
It is fine if you decide to prostrate to God, but it is also not a canonized behavior required to serve God, but it is a custom that lived on from traditions of old which is to fall down with the head to the ground to someone you showed great respect. The ancient behavior can be studied in the hearsay of the Bible where subjects fall down prostrate here and there. Abraham's servant prostrate to Abraham, if I can recall correctly. It did not mean that Abraham was a god, but it is much similar to that if we bow down our head to someone in respect. It should not be solely associated with faith this ancient tradition, that is all I am trying to get at. People prostrated to statues of stone too because they saw that they had a spirit in them, even if this proved to be false, and in one narration Abraham smashed their statues with their perceived spirit in it and then sarcastically or rhetorically said that one of the statues did it. When you prostate to what you cannot see you attempt to prostrate to a spirit that is everywhere which means you would have to be able to prostrate in all directions simultaneously to perform it best. Personally I prostrate with the heart, but I do not condemn people for prostrating physically.
The Jews, Sabeans (Mandaeans), Zoroastrians & Yazidis all STAND, BOW & PROSTRATE. And they all perform ablution. It is what it is and it has always been that way .
Yes. But you can also ponder upon if that is a custom of human origin or if it is from God. Since God is not a material entity and God count us by the souls and teach us that the world is just like an illusion and not to be materialistic I have difficulties imagining that God ever imposed physical rituals on mankind. If people prostrated historically to God that is because this was the common way of giving expression in a purpose like reverence to God.
Prostration is an ancient custom and not strictly restricted to "religious" faiths but it was a common way of showing respect to people. A remnant of this behavior is in certain Asian cultures where they bow down 90 degrees. Same use and that is to humble themselves to others.
Water has always been associated in religious rituals and it is a blessing from God and it has good cleansing properties. Being dirty may also be a distraction.
That's how it looks according to all the evidence.
It is evidence that this behavior took place, but what does it prove?
And Quran gives us no reason to think otherwise.
It does if you investigate and analyze the words used to derived such stances as "standing", "bowing" and "prostrating". At least two of them can be excluded at once and they are 'qum' and 'sujud' while 'ruku' is a little bit harder, but I find that its definition equals to humble. A traditional physical prostration is hence a way of expressing ruku, even if the word 'sujud' itself does not mean it literally. Man is so materialistic by nature so so many things in the narration of Qur'an has been given materialistic definitions such as ketaab, qur'an, sujud, ruku, qum while they should best be regarded abstractly. But what the Qur'an teaches should come from within the soul and reflected in the deeds and behavior in our everyday life events. You should judge with a sense of humbleness, respect and mindfulness.
Be of one with God
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Salaam all,
Thank you for your insights. I have done more research and gotten answers from those of other faiths since my last post. One of you said that "Muslim" Salat is a rip off of Zoroastrian "Namaz". It seems this is correct. I have learned from a Zoroastrian acquaintance that they also pray 5 times a day AND break their prayer into units. Considering that the 6 Hadith compilers (fabricators) were from Persia, this makes complete sense. And MOF, as for Salat positions being symbolic & not physical, with all due respect, I disagree. Look at the ancient religions from Arabia that still exist today & you will find that Gods Sunnah (way) doesn't change. The Jews, Sabeans (Mandaeans), Zoroastrians & Yazidis all STAND, BOW & PROSTRATE. And they all perform ablution. It is what it is and it has always been that way . That's how it looks according to all the evidence. And Quran gives us no reason to think otherwise. Peace!Aamer.
As far as Rikat you need to look at Judaism for that. They also have Rakat units. Whats interesting is that Sunni sources claim Muhammad prayed twice a day before his night journey they claim. They have a hard time explaining that since they use that how do you guys know how to pray from the Quran arguments against us. I now answer them by saying the same way Muhamad knew how to pray before Gabriel supposedly taught him how to pray.
You are right about prayers in ancient times, The same could be said of many religions like Hinduism and Shintoism praying that way also.