Especially for member progod
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Sup? D
OK this is for member progod.
In one very long debate you had with member Ayman, you were allways looking for proof that the Arabic language of the Hadiths is different than the language of the Koran.
I can tell you that just by reading verses in the Koran, and comparing them to the Hadiths, you notice some tangible and very obvious differences. I'm not talking about differences in the general meaning, or context of the subject matter, but the actual usage of words. I can only state examples, because I think examples are the best proof. Here are a few
1- In the language of the Hadiths, the word "maghreb" is used to denote a time of prayer. You allways come accross "Salat al-Maghreb" meaning sunset prayer. The word "maghreb" in the language of the Hadiths, actually means "sunset". This meaning has endured until today ( you see it on islamic calenders which show the times for the 5 daily prayers )
In the Koran, the word "maghreb" is NEVER used to denote a time of day.
You can look up the word. Search for all the verses that have the word "maghreb" in them, and you will find that it means a direction, or place, and never a time. The correct term for sunset is hence "ghouroub" and not "maghreb".
This is a small example of how word usage changed between the time of Koran and Hadith.
What's worse, is that the Hadiths actually quote the Prophet as saying the word "maghreb" to denote sunset!!! ( As though he spoke crooked Arabic )2- In the Hadith, the word "Ruuh" is used to denote the soul. Thus, when a person dies, his soul (ruuh- according to Hadith language ) departs his body. We also find the plural form of the word "arwah " (meaning souls ),very common in Hadith literature.
I defy you to find me ONE verse in the Koran that has the same meaning for the word. I swear to you, "ruuh" appears over 20 times in the Koran, and NEVER does it mean soul. God is very precise in chosing words. ( unlike Bukhary and Tirmithi, who spoke a perverted form of Arabic. Hell I don't even know where they got their words!!! . According to the Sahih of God, the "NAFS" is the soul that departs the body and never the Ruuh. THe word "Ruuh" in the Koran has a completely different meaning ( possibly the Angel of Revelation. I say this- Ok I may be wrong- but whenever Ruuh is mentioned I allways think of Angel Gabriel .
In the Koran, Ruuh is MASCULIN not feminin. IN the Koran there is only ONE ruuh. There's no such thing as "arwah " ( plural ). Ruuh means Spirit.
In Hadith literature, Ruuh is feminin, and exists in plural form, and inhabits the body. ( They confused 'spirit' with 'soul' ), and even quoted the Prophet making the same mistake!!!.
3- There is a category of Hadiths known as Hadith al Qudsi. Some "scholars" believe these Hadiths are equal to the Koran. In the Qudsi, you will find that the word "matar" is allways used to denote rain in a positive way. They even speak of Salat al Istimtar ( they pray to God to make rain fall and end the drought.) This is the word they chose in Hadith literature.
In the Koran, the word "matar" is quite simply catastrophic. It allways has negative meaning. Everytime the word "matar" is used by God, it's to denote punishment of some sort.
There are many more examples if you take the time to look. I hope member Ayman can correct me. I know that what I wrote may not be very scientific or professional, but my goal was to shed light on some differences in style, and prove that there is indeed a difference between Hadith language and Koran Language.
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SaLaM pazuzu
Just a little info on the side. "ghourob" means "sunset" in urdu.
I know that what I wrote may not be very scientific or professional,
but my goal was to shed light on some differences in style, and prove that there is indeed a difference between Hadith language and Koran Language.Bro it doesnt matter how the truth is written, as long as its the truth. There are a few members on this forum who would rather believe garbage written in professional manner than the truth written in plain ol' english wink
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Peace be upon you Pazuzu,
In the Koran, the word "maghreb" is NEVER used to denote a time of day.
You can look up the word. Search for all the verses that have the word "maghreb" in them, and you will find that it means a direction, or place, and never a time. The correct term for sunset is hence "ghouroub" and not "maghreb".This is interesting and I hope that you can walk me through this a bit more. Can you give some examples of verses with "maghreb" that you have already researched to show how it means "direction or place"?
I also agree that "ruh" is spirit (which is energy). It is the Divine Energy that animates all things. As E=MC(2) PROVES, energy and matter are the same, energy is the masculine side, matter is the feminine side. There is a yin and yang to all things, the God creates in pairs.
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idolfree1
concerning your question about "maghreb", there are many verses. I do not know them all by heart, but I can point you to 2 verses I can recall immediately
1- The verse where Abraham(pbuh) is conversing with a blasphemer. The latter claims that he has Godly powers. Abraham tells him "God makes the sun rise from the East (MASHREQ) can you make it rise from the West? (MAGHREB)"
2- The journeys of Cyrus the Great ( Zhulkarnein ) in Chapter 18 ( starting from verse 83 ). The verse says that he followed a road and kept on going unti he reached " Maghreb al Shams " ( meaning the West / where the sun sets ).
I will look up the word "Maghreb" in the INdex of Koranic Terms ( a very useful book ). I will find for you all the verses where the word appears, and post them one by one.
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Ok here they are
All the verses that mention the word "maghreb"
2115 / 2142 / 2177 / 2258 / 1886 / 2628 / 739 .
You will notice that the word "maghreb" indicates the direction / or place where the sun sets. In the Arabic language we call it "zharf makan" .
The word "ghouroub" is the correct word to denote the sunset time, as shown in the following
5039 / 20130.
Hence "ghouroub" is "zharf zaman " ( ie a time of day ).
The phrase "salat al-maghreb " which hundreds of millions of arabs use everyday is hence gibberish, and linguistically wrong. It is not the language of the Koran, and hence not the language of the Prophet (pbuh).
The correct usage would be "salat al-ghouroub" or, even better " salat al-isha" as the Koran names it.
Member Jaxal wrote
Just a little info on the side. "ghourob" means "sunset" in urdu.
Maybe so, but it also means sunset in Arabic. )
I am still waiting for member progod to make a contribution to this thread, if he is still here!.
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ummm...
excuse my ignorance but..
what's PRL??
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Peace be upon you Wakas,
Sorry Bro, It was about 1am and I was being lazy
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Pazuzu,
This is actually the first time that I've seen this posting so I'm sorry for waiting so long to respond to it. If you still are of the same opinion please understand that there is a difference between contextual nuances and actual meaning. Just because the Quran uses matar when it is talking about raining down punishment doesn't mean that matar doesn't mean rain or only means negative types of raining down. I will have to check this occurence, but it still doesn't matter becuase this is just metaphorical language. We use it in English as well but that doesn't man that rain doesn't mean the actual rain that falls from the sky.
As for mahgrib and ghuroob, the 'ma' can be used for place and time. There is the meem makaneeya and the meem zamaniyaa. Please research this if you don't believe me. Maghrib is the place of ghuroob or the time of ghuroob. It's both. Furthermore the Quran did not capture all of the uses of Classical Arabic it captured those uses that God wanted to use to send his message accross. It is just one book, remember. And a relatively small one at that.
Your contention about the difference between the nafs and the rooh is an intepretational one, it depends on how YOU have interpreted these words, not what they mean in Cl. Arabic. I believe that these two words can actually overlap in some of their meanings. About its being masculine or feminine, what if its both. There are words that can be both, malak, jund, samaa' etc. You are not proving that the Hadeeth's language is corrupted you are just proving that Cl. Arabic was and has always been bigger than just the Quran.
It's pretty obvious that if at this later date, when the Hadeeth were compiled, they understood maghrib as Salaatul-maghrib that this is a later addition (not necessarily a corruption). But that doesn't speak to the language itself, that just proves what I have been saying about there being certain meanings of Arabic words that can be considered post-Quranic and therefore should not be read INTO the Quran. The meaning of Islam as a religion itself is a post-Quranic meaning.
Furthermore, I would even encourage you to read these very hadeeths differently. Instead of understanding the traditional opinion, read the words of these hadeeths with their non-Islamic meanings and see what you understand. When you just see al-maghrib, read sunset or west and see what you understand.
Nikaah in Cl. Arabic can mean both marriage and/or sex, so it would be prudent to take this into consideration when reading the Quran and the Hadeeth, as well. The hadeeth I might add have also been highly misinterpreted by traditionalist interpretation, so don't be fooled by the hype of Anti-Hadeeth folks or Pro-Traditionalist folks.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Hello Anwar
I agree with you that Maghrib can indicate a place and a time
cheers
