Any difference b/w a Prophet and Messenger?
-
-
Salaam,
I think the nabiyeen/informers are the people who make leaps in their understanding of the truth and then they share it with others while at the same time being a rasool/envoy of that truth which they have found through their work. So they go out and recite and teach it to others.
Joe
-
Salaams,
i believe messengers who are prophets aswell recieve the message from Allah-a scripture/revelation e.t.cBut a prophet who is not a rasool don't recieve revelations from Allah but merely expound the message already delivered to them by a rasool.
lets see from the quran
019.051
YUSUFALI Also mention in the Book (the story of) Moses for he was specially chosen, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet.
019.053
YUSUFALI And, out of Our Mercy, We gave him his brother Aaron, a prophet (an expounder).Look at this first ayat is Moses a Messenger ?yes and see he does recieve a revelation from Allah doesn't he?true.
Secondly that his brother is a prophet there to expound the message of the rasool(i.e Of Moses).
And note the brother is not a messenger and please say what revelation he has recieved from Allah if any?None- he merely expounded the message recieved by Moses didn't he.?Love to see a contradiction to this way of thinking,but from the quran though!
Thanks.
-
Peace to every one here my opinion towords the topic difference b/n Prophet n Messenger is that the word Prophet n Messanger r inerchangeable and i think the best translation of 1951 is done by free minds translation whicih is
1951 And recall in the Scripture Moses; he was loyal, and he was a messenger prophet.
n Khalifa,s translation is also alright which is1951 Mention in the scripture Moses. He was devoted, and he was a messenger prophet.
and i think this thread http//sunce.inet.ba/~hardy/messproph.htm will also be of real help who want to learn more about diff b/n Prophet n Messaenger n i think both r interchangeable n i think thats why God use both the words in the same verse
and he was a messenger prophet.
n i didn,t think God is in short of words thats why God didn,t differentiate b/n the Prophet n Messanger in 1951 this is my understanding of the 1952 may God increase our knowledge i,m not putting any other Verse here because i think there r enough versus put by bro saladin n also in the thred in this post there is alot of explanation Peace -
Peace,
544
PM 544
We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have surrendered judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the rabbis, and the priests, for what they were entrusted of God's Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God Has sent down, then these are the rejecters.Many words in this verse need to be researched, like "tawrat" and "nabyoune" among others, but the part in red rises the question of the "possible" existance of "prophets" or "nabiyoune" that have not/yet submitted. ?
--
-
Peace be upon you,
For the record, I have Nabi as "those who talk to the God" (intuition), and messengers are those who spread the information that is intuited by themselves or others.
Jonah perhaps was unwilling to share what he intuited, but learned the consequences.
-
Peace to all,
The distinction is evident.
469 And whoever obeys God and the messenger will be among those whom God has blessed from the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the upright. What an excellent companionship!
The above verse clearly distinguishes between a prophet and messenger. Prophets obey messengers as do all believers, since the message is God's.
In the case of "Muhammad", he being a messenger who spoke God's word's verabatim had no time to understand what was being sent to and through him, however, after the messages had ended, he as a human pondered over them and surrendered to them.
Furthermore, the cateogry of prophet seems to be a level of belief in the Message/God, since Prophet is categorized in the above verse with other believers, thus I must conclude that a Prophet is one who attains absolute belief.
Any comments?
Peace
-
Peace be upon you,
In the case of "Muhammad", he being a messenger who spoke God's word's verabatim had no time to understand what was being sent to and through him, however, after the messages had ended, he as a human pondered over them and surrendered to them.
WHere is this information found?
-
WHere is this information found?
Peace Kyle,
Its been awhile since our last communication, its good to hear from you.
The information is found in verse 469, how else can you explain the fact that "Muhammad" the Prophet, obeys the messenger*(Muhammad)..
Further, we clearly our able to deduce the role of messneger with verses that elaborate a Messengers only duty is in delivering the message(599), thus if their only Duty is to deliver, a logical deduction would entail that a messenger does not have to understand, the message he delivers.
All this should leave us with the Understanding that muhammad the messenger repeated God's words to humanity, and in so doing, he inevitably delivered the message to his human self, which in turn accepted the message(obey God and the messenger) to a point in which he was appoint a prophet.
Peace
-
Peace be upon you,
Peace Kyle,
Its been awhile since our last communication, its good to hear from you.
Yes, I thought the name was familiar, good to hear from you again D
The information is found in verse 469, how else can you explain the fact that "Muhammad" the Prophet, obeys the messenger*(Muhammad)..
Further, we clearly our able to deduce the role of messneger with verses that elaborate a Messengers only duty is in delivering the message(599), thus if their only Duty is to deliver, a logical deduction would entail that a messenger does not have to understand, the message he delivers.
This is the part that I do not see evidence for. I do not hold the view that a man recieved a message that he did not understand. I take the WHOLE of it as a story, showing us the spiritual ascention of the Human. "Muhammad" is the one who appreciates this whole process.
The message comes to ALL humans in pieces, and we put them together as we continue to increase in knowledge.
I do not see "muhammad" as a literal figure in the past, only a level in the journey of ALL mankind.
-
PEACE Kyle,
Indeed, it is always good to hear from you, and your insightful thoughts.
This is the part that I do not see evidence for. I do not hold the view that a man recieved a message that he did not understand. I take the WHOLE of it as a story, showing us the spiritual ascention of the Human. "Muhammad" is the one who appreciates this whole process.
The message comes to ALL humans in pieces, and we put them together as we continue to increase in knowledge.
I do not see "muhammad" as a literal figure in the past, only a level in the journey of ALL mankind
Sure, I can see how you conclude that "Muhammad" never existed in the literal sense.
But, this has nothing to do with the distinction that has been elaborated on in verse 469.
The verse clearly states that prophets obey messengers and other verses explictly state, "messengers only duty is delivering". Thus knowing the individual("Muhammad/Ahmad") was a Messenger-Gentile Prophet we are easily able to understand the different roles played by each label.
As a messenger he delivered and as a Prophet he recieved/understood.
Further, to elaborate another point. As I have suggested, a Prophet is someone who reaches absolute belief in the Unseen God. Now, for this to be accomplished by a human, he must be absolutley certain that God exists(no doubt), and the only way i believe this can be done is by experiencing the otherside, thus the otherside contacting the individual.
Hence, the reason "Muhammad/Ahmad" is the seal of the prophets, because he was the last human to have contact with the otherside, thus the last person who would have absolute belief in the Otherside.
Please comment.
Peace
-
Peace be upon you,
Sure, I can see how you conclude that "Muhammad" never existed in the literal sense.
Thats a good point of agreement.
But, this has nothing to do with the distinction that has been elaborated on in verse 469.
The verse clearly states that prophets obey messengers and other verses explictly state, "messengers only duty is delivering". Thus knowing the individual("Muhammad/Ahmad") was a Messenger-Gentile Prophet we are easily able to understand the different roles played by each label.
469 is refering to the group of people who can all be described as messengers. Prophets INTUIT The message, while others get the message from outside of themselves.
As a messenger he delivered and as a Prophet he recieved/understood
.Yes, but prophet describes HOW he got the message.
Further, to elaborate another point. As I have suggested, a Prophet is someone who reaches absolute belief in the Unseen God. Now, for this to be accomplished by a human, he must be absolutley certain that God exists(no doubt), and the only way i believe this can be done is by experiencing the otherside, thus the otherside contacting the individual.
Here I disagree, we all have the God within us, closer than the jugular vein. Just as einstein "doiscovered" something beneficial for guidance, so can others intuit the answers to life.
Hence, the reason "Muhammad/Ahmad" is the seal of the prophets, because he was the last human to have contact with the otherside, thus the last person who would have absolute belief in the Otherside.
I have it that the state of appreciation of the WHOLE(oneness) is the seal of the "talkers with the God", it is by truly understanding and cultivating ONENESS that people can reach the level of talking to the God.
-
Peace Kyle,
469 is refering to the group of people who can all be described as messengers. Prophets INTUIT The message, while others get the message from outside of themselves.
I don't see that in the verse. However, what I do see is certain positive labels(Prophets,.righteous,martyrs, upright) as being those who Obey God and the Messenger.
The message was delivered through the mouth and hand of the messenger, and received through the ears and eyes of the prophet, as it was with all believers.
Peace
-
peace .
I do not see "muhammad" as a literal figure in the past, only a level in the journey of ALL mankind
Sure, I can see how you conclude that "Muhammad" never existed in the literal sense.
muhammed never existed?!!! what was that about ?! sure i cannot see how you conclude that . enlighten me please .
peace . -
Peace be upon you Zeljko,
Quote
469 is refering to the group of people who can all be described as messengers. Prophets INTUIT The message, while others get the message from outside of themselves.I don't see that in the verse. However, what I do see is certain positive labels(Prophets,.righteous,martyrs, upright) as being those who Obey God and the Messenger.
Yes, are you aware that the word "rasool" means BOTH messenger AND message? ALl of the above follow the MESSAGE Of The God, that is correct.
The message was delivered through the mouth and hand of the messenger, and received through the ears and eyes of the prophet, as it was with all believers.
No, you are confusing human messengers with non human messengers. When information is INTUITED from within, it is to a prophet, the prophet them becomes a messenger once he/she delivers that message. Lets look at a few verses.
(2136) Say "We believed with The God and what was descended to us and what was descended to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Issac, and Jacob, and the tribes , and what was given to Moses, and Jesus , and what was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not separate/distinguish between anyone from them, and we are to Him submitters/surrenderers/Moslems ."
verse 384 says the same as above
(2213) The people were one nation , so God sent the prophets, announcing good news and warners/givers of notice , and He descended with them The Book ...
Why was the covenant made with the prophets and not the messengers?
-
Peace be upon you Saladin,
Quote
I do not see "muhammad" as a literal figure in the past, only a level in the journey of ALL mankindQuote
Sure, I can see how you conclude that "Muhammad" never existed in the literal sense.muhammed never existed?!!! what was that about ?! sure i cannot see how you conclude that . enlighten me please .
peace .I made the first statement, and what I mean is that "muhammad" means one who is appreciative. "Muhammad" is not a literal figure of history, it is a description of the latent potential within ALL OF US. It is a guide to life, not a history book.
-
No, you are confusing human messengers with non human messengers. When information is INTUITED from within, it is to a prophet, the prophet them becomes a messenger once he/she delivers that message. Lets look at a few verses.
(2136) Say "We believed with The God and what was descended to us and what was descended to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Issac, and Jacob, and the tribes , and what was given to Moses, and Jesus , and what was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not separate/distinguish between anyone from them, and we are to Him submitters/surrenderers/Moslems ."
Peace Kyle,
Are point of contention can be summed up as such, "which comes first, the chicken or the egg". Your position is that Prophet comes before the messenger, my position is the messenger before prophet.
Lets see if we are capable of unraveling this dichotomy.
The verse above doesn't help us much, since its context is in relation to verse 2135 and directly the Monotheistic creed (there is no god but God)given to Abraham. Verse 2136 elaborates further by naming others who also received this same monotheistic creed of there being no god but The God(note the tribes).
Thus, no distinction is to be made in relation to the fact that all these prophet/tribes had submitted to God in monotheism.
Before moving on, I would first like to ask you, how do you deal with verse 661 where in which, the Prophet had disobeyed God and the Messenger. Especially since, yopur position inculcates the messenger within the prophet, thus how can a prophet on one hand deliver, and another break his own intuited deliverence?
Peace
-
Peace be upon you Zeljko,
Are point of contention can be summed up as such, "which comes first, the chicken or the egg". Your position is that Prophet comes before the messenger, my position is the messenger before prophet.
NO, not even close to chicken vs egg, this reading poits us to the fact that a "nabi" is one who "talks to the God" and is therefore responsible for spreading (messenger now) the message to the people, because until he does spread the message, the people don't know the truth, they are incapable of reaching the PEACEFUL GARDEN where one can tap into the Knowledge of the ALL KNOWING within.
Lets see if we are capable of unraveling this dichotomy.
The verse above doesn't help us much, since its context is in relation to verse 2135 and directly the Monotheistic creed (there is no god but God)given to Abraham. Verse 2136 elaborates further by naming others who also received this same monotheistic creed of there being no god but The God(note the tribes). Thus, no distinction is to be made in relation to the fact that all these prophet/tribes had submitted to God in monotheism.
Brother, the verse clearly says "What was GIVEN to the Prophets from thier Lord". Why does it not say Messenger?
Before moving on, I would first like to ask you, how do you deal with verse 661 where in which, the Prophet had disobeyed God and the Messenger. Especially since, yopur position inculcates the messenger within the prophet, thus how can a prophet on one hand deliver, and another break his own intuited deliverence?
Take another look, 661 is about the Prophet (One who talks to the God and now contains useful info for mankind) WITHHOLDING INFO. Of course it has to be addressed to "prophecy" because that is the LEVEL where one talks to the God. Jonah was one who talked to the God but tried to withhold the info, and he ended up in the big fish, until he lerned his lesson and came to dry land and spread the message to EVERYONE! D
You have to erase what we all have been incorrectly taught , otherwise those old ideas will strangle the clear teaching.