Quran-Only Women Must Shave Their Heads for Hajj
-
How do you know she is what you claim she is? Evidence please.
You seem to make the illogical and baseless extrapolation that if you read something in a "Quranist" translation that means everyone who follows a Quran based islam has this view.
I don't have that view. And for a list of the major problems of the traditional view regarding 2196, you might find this helpful
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.htmlOf course, your words demonstrate perfectly how no two Qur'anists can ever agree on a single translation or interpretation of verse in the Qur'an. I have quoted from Mr. Yuksel's translation because at least his translation has been published, it's in the market. He is a known person and advocate of the Qur'anist ideology.
You on the other hand are anonymous, so whose views should I give credence to in this respect?
And if you know of another Qur'anist translation that has been published and is available in the market, I would be glad to consult it as well.
So why don't you at least address the verse in question 2196. Do you deny the fact that there is no apparent distinction between male or female in the verse?
And forget about the photograph, I have only used it by way of illustration.
-
Before I expose the fallacy of the hair-shaving ritual, (in a separate thread), I would like you to try to answer the following question
You claim that the shaving of the hair is a ritual that must be performed as an indication that the so-called manasik have been completed? Am I getting this right?
So based on this understanding, when the Muslim man finishes all his manasik, and slaughters the animal, only then can he shave his head?
If that's true, then pray explain to me, using your Hadith logic, the following passage. Read it very carefully, and note that I used the FM translation, which in fact committed several gross errors. I kept it as it is, for the sake of argument.
{God has affirmed that the vision of His messenger will come true You will enter the Restricted Temple, God willing, secure, with your heads shaven, and having shortened - no longer in fear. Thus, He knew what you did not know, and He has appointed before this a conquest near at hand}...
Without hiding behind your finger and resorting to acrobatics, tell us if the outlined sentence makes any sense to you.
Furthermore, if the so-called "shaving" happens at the END of the Hajj festivities, then how do you explain the above passage which speaks of a vision being realized the believers will ENTER the Masjid with their hair cut? So now, all of a sudden, they will be shaved upon entering?
Ponder and think on this.
Salam.
-
Before I expose the fallacy of the hair-shaving ritual, (in a separate thread), I would like you to try to answer the following question
You claim that the shaving of the hair is a ritual that must be performed as an indication that the so-called manasik have been completed? Am I getting this right?
So based on this understanding, when the Muslim man finishes all his manasik, and slaughters the animal, only then can he shave his head?
If that's true, then pray explain to me, using your Hadith logic, the following passage. Read it very carefully, and note that I used the FM translation, which in fact committed several gross errors. I kept it as it is, for the sake of argument.
First of all I am not claiming anything on our behalf. I am simply stating that based on the Qur'an-only ideology, your women should be shaving their heads as part of the Hajj ritual as mentioned in 2196. My central point is that 2196, including the verses that precede it, make no distinction between males and females. Furthermore, the Qur'an nowhere stipulates that women are forbidden from shaving their head.
Our position is not at all the issue here. Nor the subject concerning when to shave the head. If you want to know about our position, you can easily research it on the net. I will just say that according to us there are three different types of Hajj, known as Tamattu', Ifraad, and Qiraan. The timing for shaving the head will differ according to the type of Hajj being offered, for example, the shaving for the head in Tamattu' is before, and therefore the verse of the vision you quoted is referring to that specific type of Hajj, while the other verse is referring to the other type of Hajj known as Qiraan.
As for the verse of the vision, this is coincidentally a proof that the Qur'an is not the only form of revelation or inspiration that was given to the Prophet (peace be upon him). The Prophet (peace be upon him) apparently had visions which are a type of divine inspiration apart from the text of the Qur'an. This fact itself is a nail in the coffin for the Qur'anist ideology whose entire edifice rests on the argument that the Qur'an is the only Tanzil (revelation) received by the Prophet (Peace be upon him).
Israfeel should be banned. He is going to far with this wahhabi sh**.
Of course when you cannot answer my arguments, then you clamor for a ban LOL
-
I am simply stating that based on the Qur'an- only ideology, your women should be shaving their heads as part of the Hajj ritual as mentioned in 2196.
You didn't read my post. Pay closer attention to the instruction. If i say, "do not eat untill i leave home". Am i saying you must eat after i leave home?
What this verse bear is a prohibition of shaving before the sacrifice is fulfilled. There is no prescription of shaving the hair here as part of the Hajj ritual.
Whoever wants to shave, man or woman, shouldn't do it till the sacrifice completes.
-
You didn't read my post. Pay closer attention to the instruction. If i say, "do not eat untill i leave home". Am i saying you must eat after i leave home?
What this verse bear is a prohibition of shaving before the sacrifice is fulfilled. There is no prescription of shaving the hair here as part of the Hajj ritual.
Whoever wants to shave, man or woman, shouldn't do it till the sacrifice completes.
You're argument doesn't hold water because elsewhere shaving the head has been associated with the Hajj ritual .
Also, can you answer my question Does the Qur'an forbid women from shaving their heads? If a woman prefers to shave her head is she sinful according to the Qur'an?
-
You didn't read my post. Pay closer attention to the instruction. If i say, "do not eat untill i leave home". Am i saying you must eat after i leave home?
What this verse bear is a prohibition of shaving before the sacrifice is fulfilled. There is no prescription of shaving the hair here as part of the Hajj ritual.
Whoever wants to shave, man or woman, shouldn't do it till the sacrifice completes.
Neptin is right and 48.27 doesn't change a thing, there is no order there for anything at all. At most there might be a usage.
and ?there are so many things the Qur'an does not prohibit women... !
And not prohibiting soes not mean that there is an obligation to the opposite, no matter how much any male wants to constrict women. .Salaam
-
You're argument doesn't hold water because elsewhere shaving the head has been associated with the Hajj ritual .
No indication that hair shaving is an hajj rite can be found here. People shave after hajj because the prohibition against shaving during hajj can result in over grown hair at the end of the hajj.
Also, can you answer my question Does the Qur'an forbid women from shaving their heads? If a woman prefers to shave her head is she sinful according to the Qur'an?
NO
-
You're argument doesn't hold water because elsewhere shaving the head has been associated with the Hajj ritual .
No indication that hair shaving is an hajj rite can be found here. People shave after hajj because the prohibition against shaving during hajj can result in over grown hair at the end.
Also, can you answer my question Does the Qur'an forbid women from shaving their heads? If a woman prefers to shave her head is she sinful according to the Qur'an?
NO
-
Salam and peace,
a similar discution about the verse here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604247.0But in general why not use the context to understand the verse??????
context start at verse
2190
Fight in the cause of Allah ......2191
And slay them wherever ye catch them.....2192
But if they cease,...2193
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression......2194
The prohibited monthfor the prohibited monthand so for all things prohibited there is the law of equality. If then anyone transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.2195
And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah............2196
Perform the Al-Hajj ( pilgrimage) and the Al-'umrah ( visit) for Allah. And if ye are prevented (physical obstruction), then send such gifts as can be obtained with ease, wa la tahliqu rusu'ukum until the gifts have reached their destination. And whoever among you is sick or has hurt in his head must pay a ransom of fasting or almsgiving or offering. And if ye are in safety, then whosoever contenteth himself with the Al-'umrah (visit) to the Al-Hajj (pilgrimage) (shall give) such gifts as can be had with ease. And whosoever cannot find (such gifts), then a fast of three days while on the Al-Hajj (pilgrimage), and of seven when ye have returned; that is, ten complete . That is for him whoso folk are not present at the Al-Masjed Al-Haram / The restricted House . Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.For me the context is clear!!!!
peace
-
Have faith Israfeel,
Of course when you cannot answer my arguments, then you clamor for a ban LOL
I doubt he has even tried. He was just making a remark about the nonsensical nature of the discussion. However I do not agree because if we ban you we follow the same kind of suppression of voices that forums representing Sunni-Islam exercise, and we must be better than you or we are as bad as you.
As for the verse of the vision, this is coincidentally a proof that the Qur'an is not the only form of revelation or inspiration that was given to the Prophet (peace be upon him). The Prophet (peace be upon him) apparently had visions which are a type of divine inspiration apart from the text of the Qur'an. This fact itself is a nail in the coffin for the Qur'anist ideology whose entire edifice rests on the argument that the Qur'an is the only Tanzil (revelation) received by the Prophet (Peace be upon him).
If the garbage of hadith is a divine revelation then I would become a disbeliever of yours anytime. That god is not worth my attention and it can threaten me all it likes, through your mouths.
There has been no "nails in the coffins" at all.
Anyway, except all the tons of rituals in your Pagan religion called Islam, what else does it teach you? Does it teach you anything about behavior, good deeds, spirituality, humbleness etc? For it is seldom that it seems that the sects exercise what their scripture says; they seem obsessed with their Pagan rituals that they have extracted from their scripture. What can you tell me? Do you have some moral code? And if you do, I suppose it only includes your kin?
Have faith
-
Peace sun
or to shave the sheep or whichever Animal as sacrifice....how goes with this understanding?
Ofcourse People need hadiths to explaine that
what they dont want to see as the truth from God.
And it seems like God didn't know to send the right messages/Ayats
And was also confused...Lol -
Does The Lord of the universe ask people to be killed? Isn't there an obvious contradiction when it is said those who kill a human is equivalent to killing the human kind? Doesn't quran say Allah don't like transgressors ? So on one hand when we are asked to eschew violence how come on the other one is commanded to the path of violence ? This leads me to think that the translators have got it all wrong.
-
Peace, Herbman.
The member named Al-Kitab came very close to nailing it.
The Sectarians (followers of Bukhary and Co.) have sworn an oath NEVER to read the Quran in context. And the context is clear as the sun at midnight War / threat / fear / readiness / ambush possible at any minute (on the way to the Restricted Sanctuary) / sanctity of said place respected even by the rejecters / etc...
Let's look at Al-Kitab's rendering
{Allah hath fulfilled the vision for His messenger in very truth. Ye shall indeed enter the Al-Masjed Al-Haram / The restricted House , if Allah will, in safety , no war helmet on your head , and shortening ( Al-Salwah) , not fearing. But He knoweth that which ye know not, and hath given you a near victory beforehand}...
I have no issues with the blue part. It's the red part that doesn't make sense to me.
I do not believe the word qsr means to shorten. Further, why would they "shorten" their salat if they are secure and without fear? Doesn't this contradict with the direction given in another passage, which explicitly tells them to do qasr when they are passing through enemy territories and fearing an ambush?
Something is not right about this rendering.
The way I see it, qsr means to keep arms nearby (as in standby), and not to relax completely, so to speak. The removal of the war helmets (hlq raas) also has symbolic meaning.
Keeping this understanding in mind, please read the following garbage
I will just say that according to us there are three different types of Hajj, known as Tamattu', Ifraad, and Qiraan. The timing for shaving the head will differ according to the type of Hajj being offered, for example, the shaving for the head in Tamattu' is before, and therefore the verse of the vision you quoted is referring to that specific type of Hajj, while the other verse is referring to the other type of Hajj known as Qiraan.
Amazing, isn't it? You see to what length their acrobatics go? Instead of admitting that they are WRONG, and that no shaving of the hair is involved, they make up 3 different types of Hajj, just so they could market their ideology IN SPITE of God's words.
Take a look at the following photos and ponder
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Jmxi6i_zps4f940d8e.jpg
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/JAtvNr_zpse807df8e.jpg
Notice anything fishy?
I could go on for hours exposing their false religion, and their fake Kaabah, but I don't want to hurt feelings.
The rabbit hole goes very deep.
Salam.
-
ah aha ah very good brother Pazuzu,
I remember a similar documentary I have seen about peligrinage in India where women and men were shaving heads in a temple!! BTW people collect the hair and sell them, there are used in Europe "salon de coiffure" for hair extensions!!!!! beurk
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZvcOlJWn60
peace
-
Aha, Israfeel. Shaving is mandatory for women according to your sages. We can say your women aren't keeping the law because they don't shave. Pls, respond.
An-Nawawi may Allaah have mercy upon him said,
Ibn Al-Munthir said ?The scholars unanimously agree that women are not required to shave. Rather, they are required simply to shorten. They also said that it is disliked for women to shave for this is an innovation in religion if done by women and it also involves disfigurement. The scholars provided different views regarding the extent that should be shortened. Ibn ?Umar, Ash-Shaafi?i, Ahmad, Is?haaq and Abu Thawr are of the view that she should shorten the length of a fingertip from each part of the head hair.
-
Aha, Israfeel. Shaving is mandatory for women according to your sages. We can say your women aren't keeping the law because they don't shave. Pls, respond.
An-Nawawi may Allaah have mercy upon him said,
Ibn Al-Munthir said ?The scholars unanimously agree that women are not required to shave. Rather, they are required simply to shorten. They also said that it is disliked for women to shave for this is an innovation in religion if done by women and it also involves disfigurement. The scholars provided different views regarding the extent that should be shortened. Ibn ?Umar, Ash-Shaafi?i, Ahmad, Is?haaq and Abu Thawr are of the view that she should shorten the length of a fingertip from each part of the head hair.
What you quoted is not a Hadith. Nor does it say that shaving head is mandatory for women. Why did you lie?
The Hadith says
"
Abdullah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) said that the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) prohibited a free woman to cut her hair more than shoulder length (Muj'am al-Saghir of Imam Tabarani)
So this is a clear Hadith of our Prophet (peace be upon him) that is forbidden women to have short hair, let alone shaving their head. A woman must have at least shoulder length hair. The Hanafis forbid a woman to cut any of her hair unless it becomes exceedingly long, meaning beyond her waist.
Regarding shaving the head for women
It is not permitted for a woman to shave her head except in cases of necessity, because of the hadeeth narrated by al-Tirmidhi and al-Nisaa?i from ?Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) according to which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade women to shave their heads. Al-Khallaal reported from Qutaadah from ?Ikrimah who said ?The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade women to shave their heads.? Al-Hasan said ?This is mutilation.? Al-Athram said ?I heard Abu ?Abd-Allaah asking about a woman who was unable to take care of her hair properly and whether she should remove her hair according to the hadeeth of Maymoonah. He asked, ?Why does she want to remove it?? He said, ?She cannot put oil on it or anything else that will make it look better, and she has a bad infestation of lice.? He said, ?If it is the matter of necessity, I hope that there is nothing wrong with doing so.?? And Allaah knows best.
Now let me turn the tables.
Where does the Qur'an say it is forbidden for a woman to shave her head? You (Neptin) already admitted that the Qur'an does not forbid women from shaving her head. Your friend Huruf agreed with you.
Hadith clearly forbids it.
Here's another question which Qur'anists try to avoid. Does the Qur'an forbid men and women from growing out their pubic and armpit hair?
Traditional Sunni Muslims universally remove the hair of armpits and pubic region as it is commanded by Hadith. But there is no such commandment in the Qur'an. Does it mean Qur'anist keep pubic and armpit hair like Western and Hindu people?
