Help please to understand such incidents
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Sorry continued...
We have to trust in GOD that He is just and in control no matter what happens in this world?!.
There are many verses in Qoran with the same context that help us us to survive the madness around us. They GIVE good news to believers, INSPIRE them and PERSUADE them to hold fast to the rope of God in order to sense peace and contentment during the darkest times..
In these verses, God IS NOT asking the believers to stop their grief while going through adversity. These verses ARE NOT commanding the believers to quit grieving, but rather are structured in an advising and encouraging format to sympathize with those who are experiencing pain.
God did not create us with an on/off switch to use and be rid of our grief!! There is no way the Most Merciful would burden us with something that is against our nature.
Furthermore, these verses ARE NOT about the traits of believers that we should strive to achieve. These verses are simply offering God's comfort for the believers who are going through the tough course of grief.
They represent God's gracious and psychological techniques to ease our pain by REMINDING us that we should rejoice in the fact that Him and the angels are constantly looking after the truthful and righteous and that victory eventually belongs to the believers (1311, 3139). They are like a pat on the shoulder to inform us that there is always ease after difficulty, and gain with the pain.Another fact that cannot be ignored and is clearly delivered in those verses, is that absolutely, NO grief or fear will be in the lot of believers AT THEIR LORD; in the Hereafter.
Please examine the history of these role models and how the Almighty is validating their shame, grief, sadness, worries and anxiety
For example Jacob
He said, "Indeed, you have conspired to carry out a certain scheme. Quiet patience is my only recourse. May God bring them all back to me. He is the Omniscient, Most Wise."
He turned away from them, saying, "I am grieving over Joseph." His eyes turned white from grieving so much; he was truly sad.
They said, "By God, you will keep on grieving over Joseph until you become ill, or until you die."
He said, "I simply complain to God about my dilemma and grief, for I know from God what you do not know.Moses' mother
We inspired Moses' mother "Nurse him, and when you fear for his life, throw him into the river without fear or grief. We will return him to you, and will make him one of the messengers."
The mind of Moses' mother was growing so anxious that she almost gave away his identity. But we strengthened her heart, to make her a believer.Mary
The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "(I am so ashamed I wish I were dead before this happened, and completely forgotten."
(The infant) called her from beneath her, saying, "Do not grieve. Your Lord has provided you with a stream.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace,
is this the clear sunna of allah to
take out once sins as a result of punishing his or her children? Or i see people in old age dying
terribly like being hospitalized for ages and death does not come easily and the answer is that god
is washing the sins before death. Is this true?Have you read The Quran?
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- What is this Jesus loves all theory and exactly how does that relate to this boy's suffering? I think Muhammad (pbuh) also loved all - and per tradition (which you are free to believe or reject) before death Muhammad (pbuh) also donated all his belongings to charity. I find absolutely nothing wrong in donating everything especially if one does not have a dependent family to take care of. Besides, on a related note, we do not differentiate between messengers - we should have faith in them all.
I am talking about the preachers who used to come to our house to invite us to church. Our perspective on Prophet Muhammad is slightly different from what they believe right? We know he is a human being. But Christians believe Jesus is a god, he loves all and thus he wont let anyone be in trouble ever. On the contrary, we are told if we do bad we will be punished unless we repent. I do know that bible has something like that, but the average person who doesnt read it remains misguided by Jesus loves all. We need to do charity, but Allah told us to not go overboard with it. Everything must be done in moderation.
Allah never punishes one soul for the crime of another. If you have the impression that a child can suffer disease due to sin of its parents - that's plain wrong and against the core theme of Qur'an. Yes, Allah will test us with death/disease of our near ones - every situation in life is a test - and every test is also an opportunity to shine. Perhaps we can say the suffering of the child gives the parents a test as well as an opportunity to show their sabr (patience). But, once again, questioning a parent's character for a child's disease is outright WRONG.
I guess we both should remain open to possibilities. I am sorry I mentioned only one. It can be a test, it can be a curse from someone else, it can occur from negligence, but at the end of the day, there is no way to know anything. We are just reading the news. We dont get to go inside into details. But wait a second, what exactly is the illness of the kid? I dont see it in the article. Why did the doctor perform surgery? Sometimes birth defects can be a problem.
But punishing soul for a crime of another can also come from curses. Life works in surprising ways. I know one woman who had a terrible relationship with her daughter in law. Because of this, she used to cry in her prayer asking Allah to punish her. Her daughter in law tried having baby several times and then when she gave birth to a daughter she ended up with some birth defects. Now both mother and daughter in laws are suffering. But some punishments can be causal. For instance, if a mother gives away all her foods to poor, then her children will go hungry and that is a punishment.
If someone (male or female) chooses to dedicate his/her life to serve the poor/oppressed and chooses not to have a family / offsprings - I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, on this point I am open to different ideas. Can you (or anyone) show me any verse from Qur'an that would indicate that we have a "duty" to have a family / offsprings?
Thats why I said my view is narrow. It does not come from Quran. I am going by my personality. Everyone has the right to choose how he wishes to lead his life. But since in my own life, I am too taken by the feeling that a companion is needed I saw a disadvantage in her choice. It comes from my bubble yes
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But punishing soul for a crime of another can also come from curses. Life works in surprising ways. I know one woman who had a terrible relationship with her daughter in law. Because of this, she used to cry in her prayer asking Allah to punish her. Her daughter in law tried having baby several times and then when she gave birth to a daughter she ended up with some birth defects. Now both mother and daughter in laws are suffering. But some punishments can be causal. For instance, if a mother gives away all her foods to poor, then her children will go hungry and that is a punishment.
Sister reel, what I deduce from the above is that there is some cause and effect rule govern by God in this life with respect to ones good/bad deeds upon his/her kin?
I concur with your deduction based on what we witness around us with such cause and effect incidents and we always try to answer ourselves in the way you mentioned , that because of the action of person A, the other person (close relative) is in such a mess. But isn't this understanding of yours against what folks preach here, which is to get guidance from Quran.
Waqas asked me if I read Quran, I feel that if I had really read Quran in the way you guys read and comprehend, I would not be here asking all these questions...
I feel I am really embarked upon a journey where I started to read Quran in actual fact, meaning the same verses which I used to recite earlier, are now appearing to me with a complete different perspective and wisdom, hope God is guiding me...
Anyway, I try to find answers from Quran and I have the following verses which (on the surface as yet again folks clarify my interpretations) seems contradictory to what you wrote above.
No Soul Shall Bear the Burden for Another |
3518 And none can carry the load of another; and even if it calls on another to bear part of its load, no other can carry any part of it, even if they were related. You will only be able to warn those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, and they hold the contact prayer. And whoever contributes, is contributing for himself. And to God is the final destiny2286 God does not burden a soul except with what it can bear. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns.
I feel justice of God is that we will judged purely on our sins and not sins of others. We can only help others to shoulder their burden themselves.
There were many examples where the father of a messenger was not a believer or the father is a messenger and his son is not. Moreover I also hear that when some one becomes Muslim, his past sins are wiped out and he or she starts from there onwards, in which case how will his/her actions during the life when he or she was a non-believer will affect upon his children? maybe he or she has done some terrible things in jahaliya but not embraced Islam, so as per what you said, those bad deeds will still haunt on to his children. I know you said you are not backing your opinion from Quran but arent you suppose to do that?'
The Quran is unequivocal in its vision of moral responsibility and accountability, so am I missing something in what you said above in view of these verses?
Cheers
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Sister reel, what I deduce from the above is that there is some cause and effect rule govern by God in this life with respect to ones good/bad deeds upon his/her kin?
I concur with your deduction based on what we witness around us with such cause and effect incidents and we always try to answer ourselves in the way you mentioned , that because of the action of person A, the other person (close relative) is in such a mess. But isn't this understanding of yours against what folks preach here, which is to get guidance from Quran.
Its not important for all here to agree with me, for they have their own philosophy about life. We are all different individuals. Just as you thought, I dont agree that a child cant bear the pain of parents' crimes. Here are some reasons
If I drink alcohol while pregnant wont my child in the womb get affected?
If I hurt a black magician wont he out of revenge try to put a curse on my kid? Of course, he can do that with me also. But I have come across people who say things like "your child will pay for your sin, you'll see, may your kid become blind, deaf, etc".
If I neglect my infant wont there be a time when he ends up getting hurt physically?I know a man who used to make fun of disabled people. Now he too is disabled.
When Titanic was made, its makers said proudly nothing ever in the world will be able to sink it. But it did sink.
Couple of years ago, someone on yahoo answers was wondering whether karma has any place in Islam. She said that someone she knows made fun of someone else's disabled kid but later he ended up having a disabled kid.These are just a few examples of how the world works and yes, Quran does speak about karma.
"Mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned, that (God) may give them a taste of some of their deeds in order that they may turn back (from Evil). " Quran, 3041
"And indeed We will make them taste of the Penalty of this (life) prior to the supreme Penalty, in order that they may (repent and) return". 3221
"(And We said) "If you do good, you do good for yourselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves." " (177)
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Sorry but the verses you quote is not linked to what i asked in specific in my opinion but again i
am learning and will wait for others to reply.and you about your experience, that is different way of thinking and i may agree on
some part. But i was trying to understand if quran explicitely talks about this cause and affect
Of sins on the next kin or vice versa.
cheers -
Are you looking for the golden rule of "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself"?
In this case of kid, we cannot explain anything because the article does not say exactly what is wrong with him. The only thing we know is that he needs some kind of advanced medical help which his country doesnt have. -
Not really. The answers i receive from you and others have certainly increased my understanding
and with time i will be able to comfort myswlf further in this area.
its just that when i see so much wrong doings in the world happening in big numbers i get really frustrated but
allah will certainly put my soul at peace one day...
cheers -
Salamun Alaikum.
If someone is determined not to understand, no one can force him to. However for the interest of readers who may feel confused I?d like to offer my humble responses to the Questions raised.
If I drink alcohol while pregnant wont my child in the womb get affected?
That?s a crime committed against the child in the womb. If I throw stone to a passer-by the passer-by may be hurt. That does not mean the passer-by is suffering for my sins. Rather the passer-by is a victim of my crime for which he is entitled to compensation from me.
If I hurt a black magician wont he out of revenge try to put a curse on my kid? Of course, he can do that with me also. But I have come across people who say things like "your child will pay for your sin, you'll see, may your kid become blind, deaf, etc".
Black magic and curses have no power other than what happens with the authorization of Allah. Attributing random natural incidents (diseases etc.) to the "credit" of black magicians etc. is a form of "confirmation bias" which fuels the business of black magicians throughout the ages.
However that?s not the critical point in this discussion. A criminal who is angry with me may also try to take his revenge by physically hurting / kidnapping my child. That is one crime used against another. This may happen to anyone anytime ? with or without the criminal being hurt in the first place.
If I neglect my infant wont there be a time when he ends up getting hurt physically?
If a doctor neglects his patient the patient may be hurt. That?s cause and effect ? not crime and punishment. If the neglect is willful it may be a crime against the victim.
I know a man who used to make fun of disabled people. Now he too is disabled.
When Titanic was made, its makers said proudly nothing ever in the world will be able to sink it. But it did sink.
Couple of years ago, someone on yahoo answers was wondering whether karma has any place in Islam. She said that someone she knows made fun of someone else's disabled kid but later he ended up having a disabled kid.These are just a few examples of how the world works and yes, Quran does speak about karma.
"Mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned, that (God) may give them a taste of some of their deeds in order that they may turn back (from Evil). " Quran, 3041
"And indeed We will make them taste of the Penalty of this (life) prior to the supreme Penalty, in order that they may (repent and) return". 3221
"(And We said) "If you do good, you do good for yourselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves." " (177)
I do not know much about karma, but the quoted Qur?an verses clearly put the burden of the sin on the sinner alone. For example 177 clearly says - if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves. (yourselves ? literally ?your souls? in Arabic - does not mean your family included.)
There are multiple reasons why assuming a child?s disease or suffering as a result of parent?s sin is absolutely unacceptable
- It is against the Qur?anic principle that every soul bears its own burden.
- It depicts God as unjust.
- It encourages unwarranted and unfound ?assumption? about the parents. Baseless assumptions themselves are a form of severe sin (4912).
How should we then understand verses like 3221 which say criminals can have punishment in this life? If someone suffers ? isn?t there a spillover effect for the family?
There can be 2 forms of punishments in this life ? one at individual level and the other at society level.
The individual level punishment is always a direct result of the crime committed. It starts with the mental agony, insecurity, fear and repentance in the heart of the criminal ? but may include worldly consequences like legal action for performing a crime. A Qur?anic example can be the Pharaoh drowning in the sea while on pursuit of Moses and co. Allah could give him a much painful death at his own castle ? but Allah made him go all the way to the sea ? to make the link between crime and punishment apparent.
However, the punishment given to a community may not always be apparent to be a direct consequence of the crime committed, but we need to interpret those punishments from a different perspective. When Allah destroys a community either with volcanic eruption etc. or with slow run-down; the death / suffering of individuals in the community is not the essence of the punishment ? death is inevitable to everyone. The essence of the punishment is that the community itself dies ? it ceases to exist and the legacy created by the community is annihilated. Mighty civilizations from the past (like Egyptians, Byzantines, Romans) all walked down this path ? and perhaps we the ?Modern Civilization?, too, is walking down that path.
The spillover effect of the suffering of a criminal for the family must always be interpreted as a test for the family ? interpreting it as shared punishment for the crime - is against the teaching of Qur?an.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Many thanks Arman for such a detailed and wonderful explanation. There is however one more point that I feel you missed out. Some one getting the same effects as you mentioned but the cause is different, like it could be a test from the God.
2.155. We will certainly test you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and fruits (earnings); but give glad tidings to the persevering and patient
So when people can not find anything related to like you mentioned in your post, they start to find explanations of their own choice (black magic; not that it does not happen, but it is also not the reason is every case, maybe rarely), while it could be a test as per above verse, and God has mentioned different places in Quran for this TEST.
Hence, if the above verse holds any ground against my original question, then this is what I have been looking for and it also co relates to one reply where it was mentioned like we are all actors playing roles which God has assigned us and at the end of play we will be judged for our performance.
Cheers
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Salam Fusion.
Yes, of course - the death and disease of our near and dear ones should always be viewed as a TEST for our faith and patience. Whoever drives strength from the experience to do good to others can be considered to have passed the test. But whoever breaks down and walks the wrong path (Life is unjust to me, so I will be unjust too etc.) - has failed the test.
The bigger the test, the greater the opportunity to show greater patience.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche.May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Life is a test, not a goal. This is the place where we can do we want, but there is always consequence for what we did. Janna is the place where there is suffer. We are just temporary in here.
Everything is fate. Sometime God created you suffer episode to make you understand about something, or made you remember him. We dont know for sure. But one thing for sure, everything is a test. So, dont burden your self about mistake you've done or someone else done except as a lesson so you can prevent the same mistake.
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That?s a crime committed against the child in the womb. If I throw stone to a passer-by the passer-by may be hurt. That does not mean the passer-by is suffering for my sins. Rather the passer-by is a victim of my crime for which he is entitled to compensation from me.
Unfortunately, some parents don't understand. I gave just one example here. But another one would be a kid born out of wedlock. Absence of father tends to cause psychological damage in some kids and thats why, they suffer in their lives. Now who is at fault here? Parents. The reasons may vary. I am sorry that I didn't elaborate on this. I was actually talking about causal effect. Mistakes of parents can make a child suffer.
Black magic and curses have no power other than what happens with the authorization of Allah. Attributing random natural incidents (diseases etc.) to the "credit" of black magicians etc. is a form of "confirmation bias" which fuels the business of black magicians throughout the ages.
I agree that nothing happens without Allah's command. But black magic does exist and I know it because I come from a family of satanists.
It is actually more than just random natural incidents. You have to be affected by it to understand its core. Interviewing black magicians may also help provided they open up. Just because you have not seen something with your own eyes does not necessarily mean it does not exist.A criminal who is angry with me may also try to take his revenge by physically hurting / kidnapping my child. That is one crime used against another. This may happen to anyone anytime ? with or without the criminal being hurt in the first place.
True and thats another reason, but has nothing to do with whether the parent is at fault. Unfortunately, I wasn't talking about this. My focus was on how parents can negatively affect a kid.
If a doctor neglects his patient the patient may be hurt. That?s cause and effect ? not crime and punishment. If the neglect is willful it may be a crime against the victim.
Relationship of doctor and patient cannot be held similar to relationship parents share with their kids. Parents are emotionally involved whereas doctor is just doing his job. However, there are many immature parents out there who take time to understand their emotions towards their kids. I know one woman who got extremely sad when she gave birth to her second child. She wanted a son and not a daughter. She used to leave the kid either alone with toys or with nanny. But then one day, when the kid learned to walk a bit she fell down from their apartment. The window was too wide and near bed. She landed in our garden. My mom saw it and immediately called 911 and informed the lady of what happened. That was a life changing event for her. She cried like crazy and finally took the responsibility of taking car of her daughter. But damage was already done. She considered it not a crime, but punishment for her cruelty. It all depends on how a parent interprets such incidence. To us it can be a crime, but she wasn't arrested for what happened. We didnt have the courage to open our mouth and tell the cops what was going on. Also she actually never hit the kid. She didnt want to her face, thats all.
I do not know much about karma, but the quoted Qur?an verses clearly put the burden of the sin on the sinner alone. For example 177 clearly says - if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves. (yourselves ? literally ?your souls? in Arabic - does not mean your family included.)
Not exactly. Some evil things done by parents do end up affecting their children. Karma can backfire in many different ways and Allah always likes giving big surprises. He usually doesn't follow patterns. And even if the parent becomes the victim of the karma there is always possibility for the kids to suffer because of emotional attachment. But as we are told, karma can be either good or bad. Now think about the story Khidr. In it, he kills a child of good believing parents. The reason given was that there was likelihood of suffering stored for them from the kid and Allah didn't wan them to go through it. Do you see here that the target of the karma was their child?
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Salamun Alaikum.
Of course the actions of parents can negatively / positively affect a child as through natural cause and effect relationship - anyone with common sense can understand that. That does not mean we can/should assume the death / disease / suffering of a child to be a result of a sin by the parents. These are completely different claims.
As for the child put to death by the servant of Allah the narration that his parents would be expecting a better child was an assurance how divine justice will be ensured for the parents, not a "reason" why the child was killed. The key learning to take away from the story is that the justification behind God's decisions are beyond human reasoning and judgement.
4140 And certainly He has sent down to you in the book that - when you hear signs of Allah being repressed with it and being mocked with it ? then do not sit with them until they chat about narratives (ا other than it. Indeed then you (would be) like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and the ones who repress (faith) in hell altogether.
( My personal transllation, cross checking is recommended.)
I have nothing more to add on this topic.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam to all,
The test to our iman starts 2/155, when one broadcasts and proclaims he is a Muslim 49/14 for Allah, forcing others 2/256 to become muslims like them and thus directly confronting the admonition 61/2,3 of Allah, without seeking Allah's help, mercy, forgiveness, forbearance, wisdom; and without fearing His judgment, without abject submission and surrender to Him, and without keeping a low profile on account of such serious handicaps and unfitnesses. And above all, we are not following Allah alone without shirk 12/106 in our moment to moment life. In life and death situations, we believe in the doctors more than believing in Allah alone, the highest and the peak level of shirk; yet we claim, why Allah has given us, muslims, this terrible agony when only as a test from Allah arrives upon one of them, because of what their own hands have wrought upon themselves; they strongly believe Allah had given them the unbearable agony 29/10, while they soulfully know well it is the miserable knowledge of their doctors whom they associated to the Mighty Wisdom of God is the sole reason. In all our walks of life, we invite upon us from all directions the dissatisfaction and the wrath of Allah. It is time we stopped associating human knowledge 4/48, 4/116 to Allah's Wisdom, and Help and Protection.
Even now we are suggesting with regard to the boy in the hospital for 13 years, that may be he will be saved if he is shifted to instrumentally better equipped hospital outside of saudi arabia, probably to USA, the sanctum sanctorum.
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Salaam drfazl,
We are too obsessed with the flesh. Separate the spirit from the flesh and one can see clearly.
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Walaikum salam Armanaziz bro,
In the case of that kid in the news article, nothing can be deduced. I have no comment on that because you saw that it didn't specify what exactly is the cause.
assume the death / disease / suffering of a child to be a result of a sin by the parents
True, but just as I said, its how parents interpret.
As for the child put to death by the servant of Allah the narration that his parents would be expecting a better child was an assurance how divine justice will be ensured for the parents, not a "reason" why the child was killed. The key learning to take away from the story is that the justification behind God's decisions are beyond human reasoning and judgement.
Yes of course. I used it as a symbol of how probably our good and bad deeds might actually influence our kids Mine future ones though P But honestly speaking, when I read the story I was thinking about "no matter how good the next kid turns out to be, during that specific time, they had to mourn for the death of the "future bad" one. No comment about Allah ) His way of work is truly unique!
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Salam Reel.
Great that we can find some common ground to agree.
The Moses and Slave of Allah story in Sura Al-Kahf again takes me back to the novel/movie analogy that I made at the 2nd post of this thread. If you ask a novelist why he killed a character in his story - the novelist will not give a moral justification, rather she will explain how the death fits into the plot of the novel - that's all. When the slave of Allah is explaining why the boy had to die - he is taking a similar stance - he is just explaining how the death of the boy fits into the overall plot that Allah is creating. He is not giving a moral or a logical justification, because Allah is not bound by human morality and logic. And that is the key essence of the story.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam Reel.
Great that we can find some common ground to agree.
The Moses and Slave of Allah story in Sura Al-Kahf again takes me back to the novel/movie analogy that I made at the 2nd post of this thread. If you ask a novelist why he killed a character in his story - the novelist will not give a moral justification, rather she will explain how the death fits into the plot of the novel - that's all. When the slave of Allah is explaining why the boy had to die - he is taking a similar stance - he is just explaining how the death of the boy fits into the overall plot that Allah is creating. He is not giving a moral or a logical justification, because Allah is not bound by human morality and logic. And that is the key essence of the story.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanThose things we dont agree upon are just trivial and we both know that we are accountable to Allah and not to humans about them. But the major thing we agree upon is that we need Quran only Its good talk about the issues regarding it no matter how much we disagree or agree. Thats how Islam flourished before Mr Bukhari popped up.
I can see now the explanation of Khidr. I didnt think like that before. Thank you for it bro.
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Salam all,
It has been a while since I participated in this site but could not help myself to share with you my comments.Sometime we can not understand the wisdom behind many incidents simply because our knowledge is Very Limited compare to God's and will always stay that way....Therefore, we need to learn when to quit trying to figure out the reason behind some incidents. Here an example of an example from Quran that teaches us how limited we are when it comes to knowing the FUTURE.
1866 Moses said to him "Can I follow you so that you will teach me from the guidance you have been taught?"
1867 He said "You will not be able to have patience with me."
1868 "And how can you be patient about that which you have not been given any news?"1874 So they ventured forth until they came upon a youth, and he killed him. He said "Have you killed an innocent person without justice? You have done something awful!"
1875 He said "Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?"
1876 He said "If I ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me in your company. You will then have a reason over me."1880 "And as for the youth, his parents were believers, so we were concerned that he would oppress them by his transgression and disbelief."
1881 "So we wanted their Lord to replace for them with one who is better than him in purity and closer to mercy."
