Rituals - revisited
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Armanazia,
You need to come up with a list religious rituals you are talking about? then we can see whats wrong with those.
Salam amin.
Do we need a list of "physical excercises" to understand or agree that physical excercises are good for physical well being?
Do we need a list of "fruits and vegetables" to understand or agree that fruits and vegetables are essential part of healthy diet?
Just like some vegetables may be less/more beneficial than others, and a few may even be toxic - so is true for rituals.
So, I cannot give you a comprehensive list of rituals. However I can give you some examples of rituals that I find in my community and I have experienced their benefit first hand. They include, for example - salat ritual and siam.
Exchanging greetings at the beginning of conversation is also a form of "social ritual" often endorsed by religion.
Regards,
Arman -
Do we need a list of "physical exercises" to understand or agree that physical exercises are good for physical well being?
There are two formations that make a human body; one is physiological organs i.e., the internal organs comprising of stomach, intestines, liver, kidneys, the generative organs and the heart and the lungs; the other formation is physical organs comprising of the brain and the five special senses involving the head, body and the hands and the legs. Without proper and appropriate functioning of the physiological organs, the physical organs for example, the brain will be out of order.
The modern science believes in the reverse of this without a proof of existence i.e., physical exercises sets right your physiological functions. Use all that the modern science says as physical exercises one cannot get relieved of his asthma, nasal block, sinus, simple headache or migraine, eye power, hard of hearing, toothache, facial pain, spondylosis of any segment of the vertebra, liver failure, kidney failure, indigestion, piles, hypertension or any ills of man. And unless these organs function effectively, there can only be forced physical activity and as a result, certainly the natural physical activity suffers the strain of forced stress ending up with manifest diseases, mild to moderate; and moderate to severe with every attempt at forced physical exercises in the absence of streamlined functional ability of physiological organs. Let there be the functional ability; and not there be physical force. It is because
2.256
There is no coerce in the righteousness, for the straight path has become plainly clear from the evil ways; therefore whoever rejects the evil ways and believes in Allah, has surely held a fast hold on to the strongest rope of Allah that will never break. Allah is Hearing, All-Knowing.Saddest part of allopathy, the heights of the modern science is that it does not know anything to revive the functional status of the internal organs. If they can explain in detail some sort of exercises for the internal organs or the physiological organs then, definitely they may have some sensible approach towards any patient. Turn to Allah for you have no means at all towards infusing life to the functional ability of the physiological organs; and know that without functional ability of the physiological organs there is no physique as such. Do not do physical idol worshiping; and your whole knowledge is mere sorcery or 'mantrika' - finally ending up with zero.
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Be faithful Armanaziz,
Yes, God does not need our rituals - and hence God enforcing any ritual is out of question. We need the rituals for ourselves ? because, when performed with proper intensions they are good for us. And God commands us to do what is good for us.
"God" does not command us to any ritual. If you mean about salateh it means something else. I have gone through all 98 instances of salateh in Qur'an and it cannot refer to a ritual due to the failure to hold any good literal quality.
My recommendation was ? to fix the situation we do not need to ?kill? the rituals. Our goal should be to reconcile the true intension of the ritual and fight against the corruptions above.
You mean a way to fabricate an excuse for validating the invented ritual called Salat?
Have faih
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Peace be upon you
I believed there is a ritual prayer named sholat. Sholat is from the root SLW meaning praised, and there is another for something like praised but more to noble, it is HMD. Assolat which had ta behind it, mean it was a form of a thing, I dont know what it said on english. Have a look at this verse
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=48&verse=29Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating , seeking bounty from Allah and pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.(4829)
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Be faithful Armanaziz,
You mean a way to fabricate an excuse for validating the invented ritual called Salat?
Have faih
True. We shall not allow ourselves to be hypocrites so as to be tossed between the holiness and unholiness, thereby knowingly fabricating a compromised path 4/143.
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And...
Do we need a list of "physical excercises" to understand or agree that physical excercises are good for physical well being?
This is a pretty lame comparison without intending to be cruel.
Do we need a list of meditation techniques to be able to know which is good for the spirituality? Your question has the same kind of dull rhetoric.
So, I cannot give you a comprehensive list of rituals. However I can give you some examples of rituals that I find in my community and I have experienced their benefit first hand. They include, for example - salat ritual and siam.
If one does something that benefits the spirituality then this is fine, but one does rarely reflect lest perhaps the positive effect perceived from them is a so-called placebo one, i.e. a sense of difference because of the faith one puts in it. Following that logic I could gain the same kind of positive sensation by thinking that my faith will make me harmonious and prosperous, without indulging in a lot of Pagan rituals in the meantime, nor tainting my faith with inventions that have no benefit for me nor breaking "commandments" which were imposed to retain the harmony of one's soul which are the classical "Ten Commandments". If one truly follows the recommendation by the Sustainer they shall lead a harmonious and prosperous life without needing to taint it with "extra-religious" practices.
What are the commandments?
1 Serve only God, your Sustainer
2 Do not attribute God to any image of anything in Heaven nor Earth. (No image at all, not even abstract)
3 No vain talk (which I take means something like "do not conjecture"
4 Keep a sabbath (good understanding is to have some time when you do not work and instead concentrate on "God"
5 Honor your parents (I would interpret it to love thy neighbor)
6 Do not steal
7 Do not murder
8 Do not make false testimony, i.e. do not lie
9 Do not commit adultery
10 Do not be jealousHere you have the uncorrupted list of spiritual guidance through the prophet Moses several thousand years ago. What else do you intend to fabricate in the spirit of Allah? If you have not understood it these "statutes" is the spiritual guidance that one is of affinity with "God". Where is the Salat ritual in the above important list of guidance?
Do you need this list to see that it is good or could the same spring to mind without seeing it?
Obviously no one has an easy time to persecute someone for jealousy or seldom lying, so you see this law is mostly a spiritual one. It is a recipe for spiritual growth. Yet the dogmatic Jews invented all sorts of persecution for their people for breaking the commandments in their sects and they invented that "God" did this or that to people. "God" have given mankind a respite and does hold off the punishment in this world although the bad that we do ourselves is reflected upon our souls, and it comes from ourselves.
If you break "God's" spiritual law it is detrimental to the condition of your soul more than anything else.
Exchanging greetings at the beginning of conversation is also a form of "social ritual" often endorsed by religion.
If you do it because of religion you have entirely the wrong perception. You say salaam or assalam aeleikum for what it means, i.e. have a peaceful soul, which basically any person in the world struggles towards except that people have often the wrong perception what leads to that.
Have faith
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Tranquility be with you brother drfazl,
True. We shall not allow ourselves to be hypocrites so as to be tossed between the holiness and unholiness, thereby knowingly fabricating a compromised path 4/143.
You can throw what is unholy to swine. It is worth as much. Fabrications are unholy. "God" said that anyone who alters or adds anything to this law will be condemned, and the condemnation in this life is utter blindness to what is true. Their 'ego', which shalt so be controlled and even reduced, screams forward through their souls, and due to this unholy lack of spirituality also alters them unable to understand "God's" allegories, and they often instead conjecture something else when they do not comprehend.
A huge problem humans have is that they materialize their faith, making it fleshly with fleshly rituals while the Sustainer has the true realm on spiritual level, as you, my brother, have already understood and I do not rebuke thee. And "God" also said that the one who seeks the flesh shall have more of it. It is not unknown that if you give in to your desires then you easily generate further desires. It is no "hocus pocus", but you simply succumb to your own beast body which you have in this world and its instincts, which is what Shaitaan wants, i.e. that your soul is so heavy it does not pass through the gate of Allah's realm which is narrow. However, the one with a light soul (who got rid of the flesh) may enter. And there is a misconception that the realm does not exist already, but verily it does, and you can enter anytime so that your spirit is assimilated, but only so when you have forsaken your flesh and opened a link to your Sustainer (or allegorically more easily described as "entered through the narrow gate".
Your ego shalt be as narrow as able to pass through the eye of a needle, then you have straight passage to the realm.
And thus Allah speaks through allegories and those who do not understand are those with their minds shut and soaked up in the flesh.
Retain your faithfulness to the Rabb
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May I also add that the current ritual of salat is entirely an invention of the Zoroastrian Persians and it closely resembles the Zoroastrian worship of Ahura Mazda. The hadith on how salat was commanded itself shows the ridiculous nature and history of salat worship. As man of faith pointed out it's the right service with the right intend that will bring us spiritual harmony. When we take care of others and our environment ( this small piece of rock called earth and all it's inhabitants ) then we truly attain the harmony and happiness that we seek.
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Yes. The Persians are/were more influential than you may think.
I even have theories that the old empire was behind the shaping of religion in the region over a quite long time. Before Islam as propagated today was even heard of namaz was performed by Persians in the so called Zoroastrianism. And that is not because it is authentic, but it has its root in Paganism as the worship style of materialized gods of which you give an image of something.
When people did not know of anything else they used their old prostration moves before Allah instead like a materialized deity. Old scriptures are even ignorant as to write "the best deity" and the likes like there were several. Prostration as in namaz is a customary move to show (deep) respect to a person.
It is an expression to prostrate, but there does not exist a prescribed ritual where prostration is involved. That is derived from Paganism where you have to please the deity lest havoc and chaos is causing negative effect on the harvest and health etc, and usually by meaningless rituals and rites rather than something of value. Clear superstition. Like Allah has a need or ego to please.
Like I wrote, the best "ritual" would be to decide to each month give X amount of money and resources to needing people who need that more than Allah does. If one wants to grow spiritually they should focus inwards towards their own souls and their behavior and cleansing, which "aquyum assalateh wa atoo azzakateh" actually stands for. Aqum means to "(show) expression thereof" and refers to assalateh and assalateh that means basically "how one appears with the character", usually nailed down as behavior by me, with the such as the stupid not praying at their funeral which means not show affection at their death. If you build a compound of it so it forms salateh is means "attention on the character" like in care about it.
Literal morpheme level Perceive that/to Be Character entity "Thereby". The birds who "contact pray" rather follow their (preprogrammed) behavior, i.e. act as they should.
Not sure what I must do to make people realize their are fooled by the perception of a ritual based on that innocent compound word (having affixes).
Before I realized this I had always wondered why the Quran rarely speaks of behavior and here you have the answer. It was covered in dirt of Pagan fantasies.
Have faith
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Yes. The Persians are/were more influential than you may think.
I even have theories that the old empire was behind the shaping of religion in the region over a quite long time. Before Islam as propagated today was even heard of namaz was performed by Persians in the so called Zoroastrianism. And that is not because it is authentic, but it has its root in Paganism as the worship style of materialized gods of which you give an image of something.
Only Pakistani / Persian sunnis/shiites calls their five (or three for shiites) times a day ritual praying as Namaz
Having said that, Namaz is an ancient persian / Avestan word for "honouring"..
It also the same root word which evolved to "Namashte" in today's hindi.
With similar meanings "Honor (to you)".As Sunniism religion was spread (and enforced) to Persia, Pakistan and India through the invasion of Mongol/Turkic kings..
They changed the existing ritual of "Namaz" with the Sunniism ritual but retained the name.I respect the ancient Persian culture and will not blindly calls them as "Pagan"...
Cyrus is among the earliest as recorded in history to apply "Freedom of Belief / Opinion" within his kingdom.
Cyrus's tradition is of course "Zoroastrian" and he calls his god as "Ahura Mazda"..Nonetheless he never enforced anyone within his kingdom to become "Zoroastrians" and/or standardized the name to call god with the name of "Ahura Mazda". (Unlike the Muslims, Jews or Christian Kings)
Furthermore he even helped to rebuild a temple for YHVH for the jews..
And that's why the Bible speaks about him in a very good light, even called him with the title "Messiah" (The Choosen) -
No I so not call the ancient Zartosht faith as Paganism either. But then it was their seat of power of the ancient Persian empire which helped shape the religion in the Middle-East during its years of dominance. I suspect the Pharisees/Parsu (in Hebrew the Pharisees are called Parsu) actually is the seat of power in the Fars/Pars region of ancient Persia and where the kings had their tombs, Persepolis (takhte jamshid), Pasargade etc.
The original faith as according to Cyrus the King and other early kings testify of very upright and goodly rulers and I have great respect for them and so did Alexander the Great have too despite waging war for conquest.
However, the worship practice called 'namaz' with strict timing and which the so-called Islamic salat is based upon, has no basis in early practices, even if they had other strange habits such as burning incense, sacrificing animals in thousands on stone altars etc etc. I have personally visited Zartosht/Zoroastrian historical places in Iran and investigated old sacrifice altars and so on. The burning of fire is also mentioned in the Biblical scriptures. The problem is that the Zartosht faith is several thousand years old since around the days of Moses. Any exact date I do not have and I have not identified Zartosht/Zarathustra either from the Bible/Quran for I strongly doubt that such a man was never mentioned in them, however he probably went under another spirit name in another language. Considered the intricate details he seems to have come with I would not rule out that it was Moses.
Hinduism shares many heinous practices with the inventions such as burning one hundred thousand of cattle for a ceremonial activity. And it is practiced like that in 2014! It is not surprising if their practices were transferred over time from Zoroastrianism which is thousands of years old.
All these rituals which tainted scriptures are no revelation from "God"/Allah/Elohim and man-made traditions invented in the old Persian empire. I am sorry if you get touched if I call them Paganism, but for me that is when you make an image of a god even if it happens to be called Ahura Mazda or Allah or Elohim or Yahwe. None of the prophets in any region taught a Pagan style religion and you see signs of that in other faiths like Buddhism. Not even Allah is an objectified deity if you properly translate Quran. It is pure superstition. Even as early as when Moses came people knew that "God" is "I am that I am" or third person "is that it is, so already back then people spoke of a non-objectified "higher power" entity. Yet people in 2014 argue otherwise! Both the very words Allah and Elohim are third person versions of "I am that I am".
Additionally, regarding the kings of Persia, I regard them as the people and kings mentioned in the Biblical scriptures about great king Solomon/Suleiman and David/Dawood and their empires. There is no empire that was greater than during Cyrus ever and same is claimed about Solomon's empire. And Cambyses was the a one that had diplomatic contacts with a queen of Ethiopia, likely Moroe.
And like I mentioned above, the Pharisee sect which Jesus has great trouble with are superstitious clerics and scholars of Pars adhering to Zoroastrianism/Judaism and which is later Islam but with Persians in other locations.
Religious freedom was given by the early rulers of Achimenid empire and this symbolizes an Islamic philosophy as well which is something that would be preached by a true prophet. "God" is mainly against strange rituals and habits which disturbs the peace, and wicked rulers, and not so much who serve the right deity. A prophet would teach against the materialization of a deity at all though and try to make people realize that Pagan style reverence of a deity is futile. This is how the descriptive labels Allah and Elohim came into existence to combat the materialized perception of a god.
Despite giving religious freedom, the kings invaded countries with wicked rulers and made them separate kingdoms within the empire with their own governor. The attack on Babylon is one of the reasons, they had taken Jews captive. And like you said, the Persian kings helped construct the temple in Jerusalem through inspiration from "God" directly according to the narratives. However I feel the Jewish kings are actually part of the Persian Empire, and it is no secret that Jerusalem was under Persian rule for a very long time as part of the Empire.
If Cyrus, as indicated, spent enormous resources on the construction of a temple he would logically need a strong motive such as that Jerusalem was holy to him. One thing is giving religious freedom, but another is spending vast resources for another religion unless it is your own and you have faith in it. Cyrus hardly used those resources and personal supervision unless it was Ahura Mazda who told/inspired him to rebuild a huge temple elsewhere. It is just my bell of logic that rings.
And I would not blindly believe the Biblical scriptures with their interpretation just as I do not outright accept Quran's interpretation. The Jews tainted much of their own Hebrew tongue.
Have faith
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Be faithful Armanaziz,
"God" does not command us to any ritual. If you mean about salateh it means something else. I have gone through all 98 instances of salateh in Qur'an and it cannot refer to a ritual due to the failure to hold any good literal quality.
You mean a way to fabricate an excuse for validating the invented ritual called Salat?
Have faih
Salamun Alaikum.
Among the Zartosht there have been those who performed the rituals to enhance their faith and reliance on the Master of the universe ? and there were others who deviated from the true purpose of the rituals.
Among the Hindus there have been those who performed the rituals to sincerely seek the face of Brahman ? and there were others who sought vein idols.
Among the Buddhists there have been those who performed their rituals to seek Nirvana ? and there were others who made the rituals an excuse to idolize Buddha.
Among the Jews there have been those who performed their salat rituals to seek the Mercy of God ? and there were others who worshiped a jealous deity to give them their kingdom on earth!
Among the Christians there have been those who performed their rituals to be one with the Holy Father ? and there were others who made the rituals an excuse to idolize Jesus.
Among the followers of Muhammad, there have been those who performed their rituals to seek the Mercy of Allah ? and there were others who made the rituals nothing more than clapping and dancing.
I have faith in my Master who guides whomever He wills and who deviates whomever He wills. My Master does not need / demand / command / enforce any form of ritual worship from us. My Master endorses for us to do whatever is good for our own souls.
If you are convinced a path excluding all form of rituals is the one that is best for you ? you are most welcome to seek your own path. But perhaps it does not harm to recognize there are other contrary views ? and just because a view does not match your own ? does not necessarily make it an incorrect view.
For you is your resolution, for me is mine.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Feel free to have a ritual Armanaziz but what I say to you is that you have no scripture which commands you from "God" to perform it. It is your invention/choice. Quran does not propagate any ritual except community service/volunteer work and to spread the word of "God", nor did Jesus Christ advocate any ritual but had a strict anti-Pagan stance. Any other Christian ideas of rituals are from men and so from those who call themselves Muslims.
Have faith
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I will agree with Arman that certain exercises helps you connect with your creator. Deep meditation techniques lead to self realization. Alternatively deep intellectual introspection can also lead to realization. If correct techniques are applied it helps the uninitiated. I have read that touching your forehead on earth ( bare earth not in some building) helps one to harmonize their vibratory patterns and give focus for thoughts and action.
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Harmony be with you shogun,
Then it is talking about voluntary meditation, concentration exercises and not a (religious) ritual, for in which meditation you seek spiritual clarity, and perhaps affinity with it, if you define it like that. Meditation of course means different things to those who perform it, but it basically comes down to the aim of spiritual harmony.
Rituals in religion on the other hand are performed to subdue and please the deity in question and not originally really to grow spiritually. It is a prescribed or even dogmatically enforced rule of that respective sect.
Arman's reasoning in this thread are basically attempts at finding an excuse for rituals while there are clear differences between various ritual types. I said one may observe a ritual if that is their desire, however they shall know that 'Allah' has never prescribed any religious ritual and it is questionable whether it is on a spiritual level any beneficial effect from it except being a placebo effect (wiki search placebo if you do not know the term). That means as long as I can gain the same placebo effect I can do any kind of ritual such as plain meditation or I could even give charity and gain the same effect with faith that it will yield the same result.
Personally, as a personal preference, I do my "ritual" of spiritual growth/clarity by silent reflection and tinkering upon existence and reevaluation of my very being constantly, and if there is something I am wrong about or if there is any new abstract thinking I can gain more clarity in.
I was also an adherent for a while to the sectarian salat in my ignorance so I know the difference between performing it and not performing it. I can yield better results by reflective meditation as you may call it. And I read Quran basically every day and I study it every day, so it is not like I never think of my Creator, Rabb, Father or whatever name you give your Foundation.
The results of my ascension even while not performing salat had given me great faith and security, and I am not dishonest to the revelations of Allah either, which contain no command of any prayer ritual, at all. However, careful reflection and pondering is nearly commanded or at least recommended in the Scriptures and why Quran contains so many allegories more than lawmaking.
Have faith
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Very interesting discussion gentlemen.
Thank you!group
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Harmony be with you shogun,
Then it is talking about voluntary meditation, concentration exercises and not a (religious) ritual, for in which meditation you seek spiritual clarity, and perhaps affinity with it, if you define it like that. Meditation of course means different things to those who perform it, but it basically comes down to the aim of spiritual harmony.
Rituals in religion on the other hand are performed to subdue and please the deity in question and not originally really to grow spiritually. It is a prescribed or even dogmatically enforced rule of that respective sect.
Arman's reasoning in this thread are basically attempts at finding an excuse for rituals while there are clear differences between various ritual types. I said one may observe a ritual if that is their desire, however they shall know that 'Allah' has never prescribed any religious ritual and it is questionable whether it is on a spiritual level any beneficial effect from it except being a placebo effect (wiki search placebo if you do not know the term). That means as long as I can gain the same placebo effect I can do any kind of ritual such as plain meditation or I could even give charity and gain the same effect with faith that it will yield the same result.
Personally, as a personal preference, I do my "ritual" of spiritual growth/clarity by silent reflection and tinkering upon existence and reevaluation of my very being constantly, and if there is something I am wrong about or if there is any new abstract thinking I can gain more clarity in.
I was also an adherent for a while to the sectarian salat in my ignorance so I know the difference between performing it and not performing it. I can yield better results by reflective meditation as you may call it. And I read Quran basically every day and I study it every day, so it is not like I never think of my Creator, Rabb, Father or whatever name you give your Foundation.
The results of my ascension even while not performing salat had given me great faith and security, and I am not dishonest to the revelations of Allah either, which contain no command of any prayer ritual, at all. However, careful reflection and pondering is nearly commanded or at least recommended in the Scriptures and why Quran contains so many allegories more than lawmaking.
Have faith
MOF,
Most Rituals helps us.
Do you accept Fasting as a ritual, if yes why do you think we need to do it.?
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I fast if I show repentance for something or show grief.
Have faith