What Constitutes a Muslim?
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
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Give me an example of the literal so I can understand better.Sure, this is a thread that has an interesting article that has many points that i already knew about...but here's an excerpt from it...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3050
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Many centuries before the onset of Muhammed's Prophethood, there was a well-known theory of atomism advanced by the Greek philosopher, Democritus. He and the people who came after him assumed that matter consists of tiny, indestructible, indivisible particles called atoms. The Arabs too, used to deal in the same concept; in fact, the Arabic word dharrah commonly referred to the smallest particle known to man. Now, modern science has discovered that this smallest unit of matter (i.e., the atom, which has all of the same properties as its element) can be split into its component parts. This is a new idea, a development of the last century; yet, interestingly enough, this information had already been documented in the Qur'an which states" He is aware of an atom's weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that..."
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I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Keith Moore for a television presentation, and we talked a great deal about this - it was illustrated by slides and so on. He mentioned that some of the things that the Qur'an states about the growth of the human being were not known until thirty years ago. In fact, he said that one item in particular - the Qur'an's description of the human being as a "leech-like clot" ('alaqah) at one stage - was new to him; but when he checked on it, he found that it was true, and so he added it to his book. He said, "I never thought of that before," and he went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of a leech. When he found that it looked just like the human embryo, he decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. Dr. Moore also wrote a book on clinical embryology, and when he presented this information in Toronto, it caused quite a stir throughout Canada. It was on the front pages of some of the newspapers across Canada, and some of the headlines were quite funny. For instance, one headline read "SURPRISING THING FOUND IN ANCIENT BOOK!"! It seems obvious from this example that people do not clearly understand what it is all about. As a matter of fact, one newspaper reporter asked Professor Moore, "Don't you think That maybe the Arabs might have known about these things - the description of the embryo, its appearance and how it changes and grows? Maybe there were not scientists, but maybe they did something crude dissections on their own - carved up people and examined these things."The professor immediately pointed out to him that he had missed a very important point - all of the slides of the embryo that had been shown and had been projected in the film had come from pictures taken through a microscope. He said, "It does not matter if someone had tried to discover embryology fourteen centuries ago, they could not have seen it!". All of the descriptions in the Qur'an of the appearance of the embryo are of the item when it is still too small to see with the eye; therefore, one needs a microscope to see it. Since such a device had only been around for little more than two hundred years, Dr. Moore taunted, "Maybe fourteen centuries ago someone secretly had a microscope and did this research, making no mistakes anywhere. Then he somehow taught Muhammad and convinced him to put this information in his book. Then he destroyed his equipment and kept it a secret forever. Do you believe that? You really should not unless you bring some proof because it is such a ridiculous theory." In fact, when he was asked "How do you explain this information in the Qur'an?" Dr. Moore's reply was, "It could only have been divinely revealed."!
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Additionally, the 89th chapter of the Qur'an mentions a certain city by the name of 'Iram (a city of pillars), which was not known in ancient history and which was non-existent as far as historians were concerned. However, the December 1978 edition of National Geographic introduced interesting information which mentioned that in 1973, the city of Elba was excavated in Syria. The city was discovered to be 43 centuries old, but that is not the most amazing part. Researchers found in the library of Elba a record of all of the cities with which Elba had done business. Believe or not, there on the list was the name of the city of 'Iram. The people of Elba had done business with the people of 'Iram!In these examples, we see people having different inclinations/experiences/professions might find the reading to hold truths that are as literal/physical as others might consider them to be symbolic.
I've never stated anything symbolic about "atoms" nor "leech like clots". The city of Iram is not fantastic evidence to me. I think we should take it subject by subject, because I can see clearly that you misunderstand me.
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I don't think either of us are being deceptive like Rummie
We know of the subjective realm by the experience of not being able to percieve that which percieves, the seer.That quote is quite something isn't it
But honestly, you have to explain the last statement...i can't pretend to have understood the implications of a sentence actually having the word seer and subjective in them!You can see and manipulate physical matter, that is not "you", you can see and maniulate your body, that is not "you", you can "experience and change your thoughts and emotiojns, they are not "you", so who are you? You are THAT which sees but cant be seen, that which percieves but cannot be percieved. When you understand that then you can truly speak of monotheism (ONENESS). D
The God said "It was not YOU who threw, it was WE"
Think about it.
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Peace Kyle,
You are THAT which sees but cant be seen, that which percieves but cannot be percieved. When you understand that then you can truly speak of monotheism (ONENESS).
The God said "It was not YOU who threw, it was WE"
Beautifully stated! We are ONE, inseperable, except by illusion.
Peace,
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Peace Kyle,
Sigh...
I've never stated anything symbolic about "atoms" nor "leech like clots". The city of Iram is not fantastic evidence to me. I think we should take it subject by subject, because I can see clearly that you misunderstand me.
Therein lies the problem...now evidence is relative according to what we believe in or want to believe in?
To someone who does not know anything about physical science, the atoms and leechlike clots will darn well be symbolic until the said person studies matter...real matter...not the stuff of dreams aka sandman.But are you saying there is nothing symbolic about the smallest particles or leechlike clots? Simply put brother...what you already know to be real ceases to be symbolic is it? Oval earth? That obviously doesn't matter to the great amount of signs in the reading that we will only witness or verify after our lifetimes...since we don't know those, they can only be symbolic....
We know of facts that are real, which are mentioned in the reading...why can't this truth then extend to the rest of the reading? Oh i know, the statements of verification are then taken to the extreme...tell me...did God intend on asking His servants to verify something in this lifetime that is clearly and absolutely impossible i.e. heaven and hell? Say there is a symbolic heaven and hell...please verify this symbolic heaven and hell for me here that exists after death...I would sincerely be interested in this..
You can see and manipulate physical matter, that is not "you", you can see and maniulate your body, that is not "you", you can "experience and change your thoughts and emotiojns, they are not "you", so who are you? You are THAT which sees but cant be seen, that which percieves but cannot be percieved. When you understand that then you can truly speak of monotheism (ONENESS).
Thats very nice...
There comes a point where we take God's word/promise to be the truth. Please explain to me how we verify concepts that we have no evidence for until we expire...
Btw, can we please start another thread for this?...This is very off topic to the current thread.
Nadia
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Salaamun alaikum Nadia,
We know of facts that are real, which are mentioned in the reading...why can't this truth then extend to the rest of the reading? Oh i know, the statements of verification are then taken to the extreme...tell me...did God intend on asking His servants to verify something in this lifetime that is clearly and absolutely impossible i.e. heaven and hell? Say there is a symbolic heaven and hell...please verify this symbolic heaven and hell for me here that exists after death...I would sincerely be interested in this..
The 'symbolic' (i prefer the term 'immediate') states of heaven and hell are what we experience daily. Heaven and hell are respectively representations of bliss and suffering in the world.
thanks and peace.
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Peace mquran,
The 'symbolic' (i prefer the term 'immediate') states of heaven and hell are what we experience daily. Heaven and hell are respectively representations of bliss and suffering in the world.
Thank you mquran, your understanding is quite close to mine...i actually asked this question to Kyle because he believes that to have faith in something is to see it (personally witness), and/or when you see something happen over and over again, then you can have faith in future events. I've noticed though, death is different from dormancy in the sense that it is a permanent barrier from this world.
Nadia
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Peace mquran,
In my understanding, the principles which govern our evolution and is contained in The Book. These principles are then extrapolated into the unseen period. We cannot directly witness the unseen period, imho.
I concur.
Nadia
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
Sigh...
Sister, if that is your feeling of the discussion, then it is a waste of your time to continue.
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I've never stated anything symbolic about "atoms" nor "leech like clots". The city of Iram is not fantastic evidence to me. I think we should take it subject by subject, because I can see clearly that you misunderstand me.Therein lies the problem...now evidence is relative according to what we believe in or want to believe in?
I said no such thing. We look for verifyable ebidence, this is the basis of my argument. Where do you see anything about belief? My position is to extract the laws from the moral lessons and have faith that they work because you are WITNESSING THEM work every second of your consciousness. Again, we can take it subject by subject you you can have a better understanding.
To someone who does not know anything about physical science, the atoms and leechlike clots will darn well be symbolic until the said person studies matter...real matter...not the stuff of dreams aka sandman.
If a person reads about "atoms" and leech like colts, and has no understanding of what these are, it would be FOOLISH to try to devise an understanding wethere literal or allegorical. I don't think that is the case with either of us, if you think it is with me, please point out the word I don't understand above. Which of the above terms do you say the people of that time did not understand? The word "Atom" comes from the Kemetic(egyptian) word "atem/atum" which indicates the knowledge of the concept of smallest particle, and a leech is an animal.
But are you saying there is nothing symbolic about the smallest particles or leechlike clots?
Sure, we can probably see similarities on other levels.
Simply put brother...what you already know to be real ceases to be symbolic is it? Oval earth? That obviously doesn't matter to the great amount of signs in the reading that we will only witness or verify after our lifetimes...since we don't know those, they can only be symbolic....
You are loosing me, I would rather take a direct example, like Musa crossing the river and you tell me what error you see as well as how you understand it.
We know of facts that are real, which are mentioned in the reading...why can't this truth then extend to the rest of the reading? Oh i know, the statements of verification are then taken to the extreme...tell me...did God intend on asking His servants to verify something in this lifetime that is clearly and absolutely impossible i.e. heaven and hell? Say there is a symbolic heaven and hell...please verify this symbolic heaven and hell for me here that exists after death...I would sincerely be interested in this..
Weve discussed the garden (not heaven) and the fire before. They are the conditions that you find yourself in RIGHT NOW based on your doings(thoughts and actions). Can you not verify the up and down states in your life and everyone around you?
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You can see and manipulate physical matter, that is not "you", you can see and maniulate your body, that is not "you", you can "experience and change your thoughts and emotiojns, they are not "you", so who are you? You are THAT which sees but cant be seen, that which percieves but cannot be percieved. When you understand that then you can truly speak of monotheism (ONENESS).Thats very nice...
I did not state it for its niceness, I want you to refelct on it and test it for yourself and tell me if you do not witness the same experience.
There comes a point where we take God's word/promise to be the truth.
No, we have faith in the LAWS, that they will work for us, we don't just read a book and have blind faith. Following the LAWS takes time, so we need patience withour "salaat"(learning processes). If you have no faith in LAWS, then you will not have the patience to get to the ENDING TIME, where effects(results) are found.
Please explain to me how we verify concepts that we have no evidence for until we expire...
If you are referring to the STATES of the Garden and Fire, we experiecne them right now, we SEE the effects of these states.
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
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The 'symbolic' (i prefer the term 'immediate') states of heaven and hell are what we experience daily. Heaven and hell are respectively representations of bliss and suffering in the world.Thank you mquran, your understanding is quite close to mine...i actually asked this question to Kyle because he believes that to have faith in something is to see it (personally witness), and/or when you see something happen over and over again, then you can have faith in future events. I've noticed though, death is different from dormancy in the sense that it is a permanent barrier from this world.
I don't understand, my understanding is the VERY SAME as MQuran, but you agree with him and differ with me? How is that? If you agree that these states are going on right now, then why cantyou SEE/WITNESS them yourself? How can you say you agree that they are going on right now if you have not WITNESSED them?
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Peace be upon you,
I also agree one must have faith in the Unseesn because it cannot be witnessed with the eyes, but we can SEE/WITNESS the EFFECTS of the Unseen. Remember, everything is created in PAIRS, we can address it from both sides. The EFFECT part seems to be the experience.
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Peace be upon you Joe,
Kyle I thought this was wierd too. Maybe the way you and MQ talk about it seems to bounce off differently to different people?
Sure, its about perception, I find that the people who HATE me talking about symbolisms tend to discard all of my understandings. I think this was a clear example.
This was something like the psychology behind Good cop, Bad cop D
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Peace Kyle, all
Sister, if that is your feeling of the discussion, then it is a waste of your time to continue.
Brother, i love our discussions..no need to be touchy.
If you would have been a little patient you could have seen my understanding which is as follows
I said no such thing. We look for verifyable ebidence, this is the basis of my argument.
What is verifiable evidence? As we have seen it is a relative term to you.
If a person reads about "atoms" and leech like colts, and has no understanding of what these are, it would be FOOLISH to try to devise an understanding wethere literal or allegorical.
Just like a lot of people read about stuff they don't understand as of yet and try to put their own spin on it? My point is that there is information and knowledge out there that we DO NOT HAVE as of yet and many other people DID NOT either...it would be foolish to assume that we have worked out a perfect understanding...and/or to deny that certain things just do not happen when we do NOT have God's complete knowledge and wisdom about the universe.
Weve discussed the garden (not heaven) and the fire before. They are the conditions that you find yourself in RIGHT NOW based on your doings(thoughts and actions). Can you not verify the up and down states in your life and everyone around you?
What evidence have you that these states will exist after death or even that we will be resurrected? We see these states but are they constant as we are promised? Have we witnessed constant bliss or agony? You talk about personally witnessing signs like moses' stick...yet become inconsistent when talking about heaven and hell, why? We see sticks and snakes around us, we know matter transmutates, so if these two are linked you scream bloody murder... Your linking of temporary states of bliss and agony in this life to the next are a leap as we have no proof/evidence that these will continue forever and/or remain constant. Have you witnessed anyone who is in a state of permanent bliss or permanent agony in this life? We see the changes but that is not what we are promised. So what exactly have you witnessed in this life that leads you to say that these states will be permanent or even exist after death...or even if there is life after death? You link concepts without personally witnessing with your eyes? Congrats because thats what i do too.
Then, you say...when we see something happen again and again we have faith in future events...nowhere is it imperative that the same thing must happen again and again for us to have faith in the same thing happening again or disallowing the said thing from ever having happened...for example everyday is different...if we now only talk about just the major basic things happening again and again..then you must allow the possibility of minor different variables (stick = snake minor in the light of the major events...after all, is the creation of the universe more difficult or a stick to snake or even that of a human?)
7927 Are you (a) stronger creation or the sky/space (which) He built/constructed it?
Your faith can be termed as blind by an atheist. You can't verify and have evidence that AFTER we die we will be resurrected and exist in the "states of mind of a garden or hell". We can sleep and get up...but if we are in the 'forever' sleep where our bodies turn to dust and bones...no one can have clear evidence or witness and/or verify what happens AFTER death. True, we do sleep regularly and get up...but has any one human or even an animal gotten up after death to your knowledge? Even the plants that lie dormant in winter come back in bloom in the spring...notice the word dormant...like sleep...if we kill this plant or it dies of it's own accord, it will not bloom in the spring or any other season in this world ever again.
We have NOT witnessed any such effects that make us certain that there is life after DEATH, or constant states of bliss or agony, as this is not to be found in this life, that evidence can't be found...if it was then we would have no atheists...
1749 They say "What! when we are reduced to bones and dust, should we really be raised up (to be) a new creation?"
1750 Say "(Nay!) be ye stones or iron,
1751 "Or created matter which, in your minds, is hardest (to be raised up),- (Yet shall ye be raised up)!" then will they say "Who will cause us to return?" Say "He who created you first!" Then will they wag their heads towards thee, and say, "When will that be?" Say, "May be it will be quite soon!
4617 And who said to his parents "Ugh to you do you promise me that I will be brought out, and the generations/centuries had past/expired from before me?" And they, seek/ask for help (from) God "Your calamity/scandal/woe believe, that truly God's promise (is) truth ." So he says "That (is) not except the first's/beginner's myths/baseless stories ."
Your confirmation apparently doesn't prove to the disbelievers that a human being can be resurrected...sure they see the earth being resurrected after winter while it was dormant, animals waking up after their sleep...but do they see a human being or animal or plant resurrected after death before their eyes? That would be evidence indeed for them to know it can happen...but it does NOT exist...if it happened again and again or just once to every person why on earth would ANYONE deny it? According to the verses above...God is trying to build a logical argument for the disbelievers...so that they use their abilities/reasoning to figure out, NOT because they have to see it to believe it. This logical deduction would still be a theory until it comes to pass. There is NO absolute confirmation. That is faith.
If you say that we don't need physical confirmation or to personally witness, we can deduce or have a theory then you have faith...even scientists have 'blind faith' in black matter...its not a bad thing...our reasoning must be used not the fact that we must see it to believe it...or since we never saw it, it can't exist..black matter can't be seen yet it does exist according to theory.
No, we have faith in the LAWS, that they will work for us, we don't just read a book and have blind faith. Following the LAWS takes time, so we need patience withour "salaat"(learning processes). If you have no faith in LAWS, then you will not have the patience to get to the ENDING TIME, where effects(results) are found.
No one is asking you to JUST believe without some reasoning as to WHY/HOW, this is a fact. Moses's stick turned into a snakelike thingy...This is apparently not a run of a mill event. We use logic, scientific knowledge, theories to advance how or why such an event might occur. Since we havent seen it, but we have knowledge of such an event whether in a book or otherwise. Knowledge has reached us.Thus, saying it doesnt happen doesnt cut it. There are lots of things we used to say don't happen, yet scientific knowledge progresses to the point that what we thought impossible isn't.
Our discussion revolves around this key verse always, let me proffer my understanding
"And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for." (Quran 1736)
Sure we can all connect the dots and logically deduce the possibilities...have theories...thats what we ALL do whether we see symbology or physical/literal in the verses...but if you are saying you have to personally witness something to believe in its veracity is false as we have just seen above. No one witnesses life after death, even the effects of life after death...effects of life after death seems like an illogical statement...Shouldn't it be the effects of this life on the life after death for it to be semantically correct? In which case it's still impossible as no one witnesses life after death to tell us what the effects are of this life are on that life.
The statement to verify all information imo is telling us not to believe without our reasons...we should not listen and just believe. We should all have our reasons (meaning we should think about everything) and logical deductions to believe what we do. As we see we are supposed to hear all words and follow the best...
3918 Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.
No where is it stated or even possible that throughout time we will all hear the same words and follow the same best words, in different times this information will be different, except for God's scriptures which have the same basic points. We will have to adapt to the time period we are born in by learning what we know of in that time period, examining and deducing/having theories about what we believe in and WHY including God's books and the world around us...we will all have our different reasons and thinking, whether logical or intuitional or whatever..and follow what we think is best by working out and/or eliminating or thinking of certain possibilities we reach something that can be plausible to us and sufficient to stand before God as our reasons...which will vary person to person...that is what i belive we are asked to do...have reasons...and we better make sure that they can tumble with the best of them as no doubt we should be prepared for the day when we will be asked about them. This surety of being asked about them is what makes us want to refine and hone our understandings and reasons...this shows that we have spent time and effort into looking at everything, studying the world God's signs and finally decided on a course/understanding that is the most plausible to us. This indeed is not easy, and it puts a lot into perspective and makes us grow and during the course of doing this, we come across discoveries,truths, we have a sense of what we are obligated to do, we want to better ourselves and others etc etc(i could go on) which is why i believe we have been asked to do this.
Not because we HAVE to see something before we believe it OR we MUST personally witness every sign.
Thus in the end...all of us are in the same boat of having faith as the rest who believe that God's promise is the truth..because there are some things we just can't personally witness.
Nadia
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Peace bro Kyle,
As to your other posts
I don't understand, my understanding is the VERY SAME as MQuran, but you agree with him and differ with me? How is that? If you agree that these states are going on right now, then why cantyou SEE/WITNESS them yourself? How can you say you agree that they are going on right now if you have not WITNESSED them?
Mquran agrees that we don't have to personally witness...you don't according to our discussions about moses' stick...then in another post you write
I also agree one must have faith in the Unseesn because it cannot be witnessed with the eyes, but we can SEE/WITNESS the EFFECTS of the Unseen. Remember, everything is created in PAIRS, we can address it from both sides. The EFFECT part seems to be the experience.
Now you say that we must have faith in the unseen as we cannot witness with the eyes...why don't you insist on that when talking about moses' stick or the cities or the prophets? Is it inconceivable that these events could have occured? The effects of the unseen have an inconsistency in the example you gave above, i have tried to put this across...otherwise we should discuss the statement, would sincerely like to. Everything is created in pairs eh? Truths have sides to them? Physical as well as symbolic? Everything has an effect...it is all linked.
Sure, its about perception, I find that the people who HATE me talking about symbolisms tend to discard all of my understandings. I think this was a clear example.
This was something like the psychology behind Good cop, Bad cop
Brother Kyle, I don't hate you talking about symbolisms...i have used your understandings in many ways...if you could only see how many people i have used some of your understandings on like muslim is not a title etc etc you were the first person i read that had those opinions...I sincerely appreciate and read with great interest your posts. They always teach me something new. Believe me, i have the utmost respect for you, i would never claim to disregard your opinion..it has always taught me a lot.
This discussion revolves around our old favorite topic...and i must say i jump in with enthusiasm to discuss with you specifically...the only bone of contention arises when you insist the other way isn't right...then i obviously have to discuss why i think it's right. Eventually, to you your way to me mine...but this is about a discussion of why we believe the way we do and what problems our reasonings have...so we are better able to deal with them and if possible to refine them.
Nadia
edited to correct
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
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Sister, if that is your feeling of the discussion, then it is a waste of your time to continue.Brother, i love our discussions..no need to be touchy.
I'm not touchy sister D I just recognize that when the human "sighs" it is the release of tension. Tension builds up when the state oe peace has been disturbed. Many of us can witness this at our jobs where we hear people al around us releasing tension "SIGH". SO I was just stating that I don't want to cause you tension and if our discussions do that to you, perhaps we should discontinue. But You have stated that you love them, I am glad, so lets continue.
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I said no such thing. We look for verifyable ebidence, this is the basis of my argument.What is verifiable evidence? As we have seen it is a relative term to you.
Give an example that we can work with so I can check myself and see if that is the case.
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If a person reads about "atoms" and leech like colts, and has no understanding of what these are, it would be FOOLISH to try to devise an understanding wethere literal or allegorical.Just like a lot of people read about stuff they don't understand as of yet and try to put their own spin on it?
Whose spin SHOULD I be using? I have to follow what is inspired to me. And what kind of message is given where the recipient cannot understand? I disagree with that philosophy.
My point is that there is information and knowledge out there that we DO NOT HAVE as of yet and many other people DID NOT either...it would be foolish to assume that we have worked out a perfect understanding
I don't think the goal is to understand the Universe in entirety, but we can understand the guidance given to us so we can move through our lives efficiently. So for example, I don't forsee myself throwing any sticks and changing them into snakes, but I do forsee myself engaging in debates.
I do not forsee myself having to build any Arks, but I do forsee myself having to build a stable system around myself so that the instability of society does not effect me.
How does your understanding interpret these concepts?
...and/or to deny that certain things just do not happen when we do NOT have God's complete knowledge and wisdom about the universe.
You see, I cannot logically deny that Jesus dies on the cross and was ressurected literally if I am going to blindly believe that sticks turn to snakes and seas spilt at the touch of a stick.
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Weve discussed the garden (not heaven) and the fire before. They are the conditions that you find yourself in RIGHT NOW based on your doings(thoughts and actions). Can you not verify the up and down states in your life and everyone around you?What evidence have you that these states will exist after death or even that we will be resurrected?
The evidence I have is when one looks deep within and sees that all things are really ENERGY. As we are taught in grade school, energy cannot be destroyed. This energy is the substance of the ONE to whom we will return in the end. So as the God says, do not say of those who are killed in the God's path "They are dead". Energy is never destroyed and we can witness that scientifically.
We see these states but are they constant as we are promised?
They are constant as long as YOU are constant. Thats why we are told not to die EXCEPT in a state of peaceful submissiveness(islam).
Have we witnessed constant bliss or agony?
No, thats what I am striving for, but I have witnessed both states so I know them to be real, the LENGTH of it depends upon my deeds.
You talk about personally witnessing signs like moses' stick...yet become inconsistent when talking about heaven and hell, why?
Where is the inconsistency?
We see sticks and snakes around us, we know matter transmutates, so if these two are linked you scream bloody murder.
I am lost as to what you are stating here. Are you saying that under the LAWS that God has placed us in, that sticks transmutate to snakes? Please elaborate.
Your linking of temporary states of bliss and agony in this life to the next are a leap as we have no proof/evidence that these will continue forever and/or remain constant. Have you witnessed anyone who is in a state of permanent bliss or permanent agony in this life? We see the changes but that is not what we are promised.
Lets talk about what we are promised. Please define ETERNITY for me. Doesn't eternity mean "without beginning and end"? So how can RIGHT NOW be outside of eternity? YOu seem to be talking as if ETERNITY is not already happening? How do you understand the following verse?
(11107) Immortally/eternally in it as long as the skies and the earth continued/lasted, except what your Lord willed, surely your Lord (is a) maker/doer, to what He wills/wants.
So what exactly have you witnessed in this life that leads you to say that these states will be permanent or even exist after death...or even if there is life after death? You link concepts without personally witnessing with your eyes? Congrats because thats what i do too.
No, I don't do that. I gave the evidence of energy, which we can witness/see the effects of. Also we see the life and death cycles of the creation throughg the change of the seasons. The rain that gives life to a dead earth, etc. So there are many verifyable evidences with which to build upon securely. NOt the blind belief of an allegorical story.
Then, you say...when we see something happen again and again we have faith in future events...nowhere is it imperative that the same thing must happen again and again for us to have faith in the same thing happening again or disallowing the said thing from ever having happened...for example everyday is different
Different? The God says consistently that there is NO CHANGE in His way(sunna). The God does not change real sticks into real snakes for one group of people and not the rest, because if He did, that would be a change in His Way (sunna). Do you think the God LITERALLY turned some humans into Apes and Pigs?
..if we now only talk about just the major basic things happening again and again..then you must allow the possibility of minor different variables (stick = snake minor in the light of the major events...after all, is the creation of the universe more difficult or a stick to snake or even that of a human?)
7927 Are you (a) stronger creation or the sky/space (which) He built/constructed it?
I hear you saying we should allow for minor variations, but wether it is major or minor, isnt that a change in the God's Way? The God has created according to a PATTERN(fitra), He does not change this to convine humans, it is the HUMAN UNDERSTANDING that must change, not the God's creation.
Your faith can be termed as blind by an atheist.
It can be "termed" by anyone, but can they prove it? Thats what I seek, proof.
You can't verify and have evidence that AFTER we die we will be resurrected and exist in the "states of mind of a garden or hell". We can sleep and get up...but if we are in the 'forever' sleep where our bodies turn to dust and bones...no one can have clear evidence or witness and/or verify what happens AFTER death. True, we do sleep regularly and get up
Yes, you noticed yet another sign of the ressurection, sleep D YOu see how they continue to come? D We don't have to just believe the statements of Humans, otherwise we should believe in Santa Claus, Boogey man, Hercules, Superman, etc. The God instead promises that WE will...
(4153) We will show them Our signs in the horizons and in their minds/spirits, until (it) becomes clear/explained for them that it (is) the truth . Is (it) not enough/sufficient with your Lord, that He truly is on every thing witnessing?
...but has any one human or even an animal gotten up after death to your knowledge?
That all depends on if you classify the outer shell as the "being" rather that the ETERNAL ENERGY from which all forms are constructed. I am looking at life from a totally different perception. From a UNIFIED perception. From a WHOLISTIC perception. From a MONOTHEISTIC perception. I am striving to stop being fooled by the illusion of this world. I understand that it is not "me" who sees/witnesses, but the SEER SEES. May we follow the example of Isa, son of Mariam and cultivate the Divine Energy (Ruh Ul Qudus) within us so we can maintain our natural state of Peace.
Even the plants that lie dormant in winter come back in bloom in the spring...notice the word dormant...like sleep...if we kill this plant or it dies of it's own accord, it will not bloom in the spring or any other season in this world ever again.
And again, that very same energy is never destroyed, science proves this. Science comes from latin "scire" meaning "To KNOW". SO since the energy is never destroyed, and since protons, nuetrons, and electrons are formed from this same energy, and all creation consists of the very same protons, nuetrons and electrons, just in different combinations, where has the energy gone?
YOU see, if you die with THAT understanding, a WHOLISTIC UNDERSTANDING, than you cannot really be called "Dead", that is why we do not say of those who are killed in the God's Path (Monotheism/ONENESS),
(2154) And do not say to whom is being killed in God's path "Deads." But (they are) alive, and but you do not percieve.
I am coming to percieve and trying to leave bread crumbs like Hansel and Gretal D
Everything is made of energy, energy is understood to move in a WAVELIKE fashion, as a snake moves. So there is an understanding that the God is trying to share with us by means of metaphors. We don't have to blindly believe in the statements of man unproven, we just have to reflect on the metaphors to get the guidance and follow the guidance to a state of Peace Maintained.
We have NOT witnessed any such effects that make us certain that there is life after DEATH, or constant states of bliss or agony, as this is not to be found in this life, that evidence can't be found...if it was then we would have no atheists...
It all depends on where your focus is, if you are focused on the OUTER LIFE, the Illusion, then there is no evidence for you, but when you are on the God's path (Oneness), you are focused on the proper direction(Qibla), the "place of hearing and obeying the restrictions" (al masjid al haram).
This is a mental level that one must focus on at ALL TIMES. The God told us
(2144) ...so We will appoint you a direction you accept/approve it, so turn your face towards the place of hearing and obeying the restrictions (al masjid al haram) and wherever you were so turn your faces towards it, and that those who were given The Book(consciousness of life gievn to those who talk with the God) they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and that The God is not with neglecting about what they do.
Wherever we are , we must bring to mind that there is a very high level(maqam) of understanding that we must maintain at all times. The God's restrictions help us to remain disciplined so we can achieve and maintain this state.
1749 They say "What! when we are reduced to bones and dust, should we really be raised up (to be) a new creation?"
1750 Say "(Nay!) be ye stones or iron,
1751 "Or created matter which, in your minds, is hardest (to be raised up),- (Yet shall ye be raised up)!" then will they say "Who will cause us to return?" Say "He who created you first!" Then will they wag their heads towards thee, and say, "When will that be?" Say, "May be it will be quite soon!
Yes, even stones and iron are nothing but ENERGY. This is PROVEN in Science. As well another sign, we are already here, we are WITNESSING/SEEING our very own creation (because we are not our bodies, they are mere vessels). But many still question after so much evidence, "What! when we are reduced to bones and dust, should we really be raised up (to be) a new creation"?
4617 And who said to his parents "Ugh to you do you promise me that I will be brought out, and the generations/centuries had past/expired from before me?" And they, seek/ask for help (from) God "Your calamity/scandal/woe believe, that truly God's promise (is) truth ." So he says "That (is) not except the first's/beginner's myths/baseless stories ."
I don't know who the "beginners/first" stories might be, but the oldest recorded teachings on spirituality where the Ancient Egyptians(Kemet) who uphold the very same philosophy of Oneness and use the same symbols (they wore snakes on thier foreheads to symbolise the energy) as well as countless heiroglyphics depicting the waves of energy as a snake). Even Eve of the Christain philosophy was tempted by a snake(thoughts are waves of energy). The metaphorical story happens all the time in our very own lives, no need to blindly believe that this actually happenned.
Your confirmation apparently doesn't prove to the disbelievers that a human being can be resurrected...sure they see the earth being resurrected after winter while it was dormant, animals waking up after their sleep...but do they see a human being or animal or plant resurrected after death before their eyes? That would be evidence indeed for them to know it can happen...but it does NOT exist...if it happened again and again or just once to every person why on earth would ANYONE deny it?
You know, thats a good question to ask the people of Isa's (Jesus) time. It is claimed that he raised the dead to life, so if it LITERALLY HAPPENNED, as you said "why on earth would ANYONE deny it?" D
But as I have explained, you have to CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION. YOu are focused on the OUTER, just like when the messenger was "searching the sky", but was told to look within to the "place of hearing and obeying the God's restrictions", a state where the INTERCONNECTEDNESS of things is witnessed/seen. The God told us CLEARLY that He will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier MINDS(nafs) (1311).
According to the verses above...God is trying to build a logical argument for the disbelievers.
Absolutely!!
..so that they use their abilities/reasoning to figure out
Absolutely!!
NOT because they have to see it to believe it. This logical deduction would still be a theory until it comes to pass. There is NO absolute confirmation. That is faith.
No, I disagree. The God said He would SHOW US His signs, not tell us to just believe. The God says that He PROVES the truth with his WORDS. Words are only sounds, sound is only the movement of particles from THE ENERGY(RUH)
(1785) And they ask/question you about the energy(ruh) , say "The energy (is) from my Lord's matter/affair, and you were not given from the knowledge except little.
We were not given much knowledge about the Energy, the essence of BEING, so we are told to say;
(20114) ...and say "My Lord increase me knowledge."
It is this KNOWING based on the interconnection of all creation based on this energy, which cannot be destroyed, that helps us to achieve PEACE. For how can you hurt another "form" knowing that you are hurting yourself? The God is ONE! D
If you say that we don't need physical confirmation or to personally witness, we can deduce or have a theory then you have faith...even scientists have 'blind faith' in black matter...its not a bad thing...our reasoning must be used not the fact that we must see it to believe it...or since we never saw it, it can't exist..black matter can't be seen yet it does exist according to theory.
YOu are getting caught up on "if it did happen", my point is that it does not matter, if it did or not, but we cannot bear FALSE WITNESS and say it did for sure. WHat benefit does it hold for you to even have FAITH that it did happen literally? The guidance, the purpose for the story, comes out either way, with EVIDENCE THAT IS VERIFYABLE. D
SO tell me, with this understanding, why is it so important to you that it did happen literally, why do you fight to protect that literal understanding?
YOu see, you want to disptue if it really happenned or not, I am saying we do not need to bother ourselves with that, we have our OWN EVIDENCE! D
(365) YOU! The Book's people, why (do) you debate in Abraham, and the Torah and the New Testament/Bible were not descended except from after him, so do you not reason/understand?
YOu see? We are not to have blind faith, that which is revealed to US will be the evidence of the stories. We can see the LESSONS in our lifes(kitaab) once we cultivate the Divine Energy (Ruh Ul Qudus).
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No, we have faith in the LAWS, that they will work for us, we don't just read a book and have blind faith. Following the LAWS takes time, so we need patience withour "salaat"(learning processes). If you have no faith in LAWS, then you will not have the patience to get to the ENDING TIME, where effects(results) are found.No one is asking you to JUST believe without some reasoning as to WHY/HOW, this is a fact. Moses's stick turned into a snakelike thingy...This is apparently not a run of a mill event. We use logic, scientific knowledge, theories to advance how or why such an event might occur. Since we havent seen it, but we have knowledge of such an event whether in a book or otherwise. Knowledge has reached us
NO, the knowledge hsa NOT reached us. KNOWLEDGE is KNOWING. YOu must VERIFY something in order to KNOW it, otherwise it is just "belief". It is only by SEEING the signs that the God is SHOWING(sight) US, that knowledge reaches us.
There are several verses that show us that even though you may be reading this reading(quran) the story might not yet have truly reached you (Knowing).
(970) (YA) Hath not the story reached them of those before them?- the People of Noah, and 'Ad, and Thamud; the People of Abraham, the men of Midian, and the cities overthrown. To them came their messengers with clear signs. It is not Allah Who wrongs them, but they wrong their own souls.
(209) (YA) Has the story of Moses reached thee?
(3821) (YA) Has the Story of the Disputants reached thee? Behold, they climbed over the wall of the private chamber
(5124) (YA) Has the story reached thee, of the honoured guests of Abraham?
And on and on...
Thus, saying it doesnt happen doesnt cut it.
Saying it does CERTAINLY does not cut it, otherwise we have a whole list of stories to entertain. Mercifully, the God will send us His signs untoil we KNOW, not just believe.
(226) Surely The God does not (feel) shame that (He) gives/strikes a metaphor(symbolism), (of) any a mosquito or what (is) above it, but so those who believed, so they know that it (is) the truth from their Lord, and but those who disbelieved, so they say "What did The God want/intend with that (as) a metaphor?" He misguides with it many, and He guides with it many, and He does not misguide with it except the debauchers .
There are lots of things we used to say don't happen, yet scientific knowledge progresses to the point that what we thought impossible isn't.
Thats because the mojority of the people, those who SAY these things, are blind believers, they do not require proofs, that is why certain people blindly believed that the earth was flat, meanwhile the culture of the Egyptains maintained that it was not flat, long before such blind beliefs were held of the earths flatness. Its all a matter of verification, most people do not do it.
Our discussion revolves around this key verse always, let me proffer my understanding
"And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for." (Quran 1736)
Sure we can all connect the dots and logically deduce the possibilities...have theories...thats what we ALL do whether we see symbology or physical/literal in the verses...but if you are saying you have to personally witness something to believe in its veracity is false as we have just seen above. No one witnesses life after death, even the effects of life after death...effects of life after death seems like an illogical statement...Shouldn't it be the effects of this life on the life after death for it to be semantically correct? In which case it's still impossible as no one witnesses life after death to tell us what the effects are of this life are on that life.
Well, I have discussed how everything is energy and that we have to have a unified thought process to see that nothing really "dies". Science proves that energy cannot be destroyed. We witness life after death everytime a child is born from no where. But seeing all the signs does not help anyone who is rejecting, constantly resisting the truth. The God states we are responsible for our senses, so we must use them to verify statements, not disregard them and think that sticks turn into snakes, what guidance is there in waiting for such a literal event to take place? Instead we have the lesson to apply right now.
The statement to verify all information imo is telling us not to believe without our reasons...we should not listen and just believe. We should all have our reasons (meaning we should think about everything) and logical deductions to believe what we do. As we see we are supposed to hear all words and follow the best...
3918 Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.
So how have you reasoned that sticks literally turn into snakes? We don't need to have faith in that, only have faith in the lesson which can be applied to so many circumstances in our everyday lives.
No where is it stated or even possible that throughout time we will all hear the same words and follow the same best words, in different times this information will be different, except for God's scriptures which have the same basic points. We will have to adapt to the time period we are born in by learning what we know of in that time period, examining and deducing/having theories about what we believe in and WHY including God's books and the world around us...we will all have our different reasons and thinking, whether logical or intuitional or whatever..and follow what we think is best by working out and/or eliminating or thinking of certain possibilities we reach something that can be plausible to us and sufficient to stand before God as our reasons...which will vary person to person...
The God's path is not facing a million different directions. That is why there is the concept of "hajja" debating, so that we can cultivate one focus(qibla) based on the God's observable laws(restrictions) that we should all hear and obey. It is the rejectoprs and hypocrites who have all these other directions/focuses(qibla), they do not even follow each others qibla! D You see, we respect the ideas of others, but the seekers of knowledge participate in hajja/debate so they can KNOW, not just believe.
that is what i belive we are asked to do...have reasons...and we better make sure that they can tumble with the best of them as no doubt we should be prepared for the day when we will be asked about them.
Exactly, debating helps correct theories.
This surety of being asked about them is what makes us want to refine and hone our understandings and reasons...this shows that we have spent time and effort into looking at everything, studying the world God's signs and finally decided on a course/understanding that is the most plausible to us.
No, that is what IBLIS did, followed a course most pleasing to "US", NO, we must follow the course most pleasing to the WHOLE(GOD). It is IBLIS who thinks on the physical level, the level of seperation, We must climb the mountain/pyramid and reach the TOP, where the EYE VERIFIES and KNOWS! D WHere all comes to a ONE POINT!
We have to reach the HIEGHTS, where all is ONE, interconnected. Then we will say the same as those in the "garden" say as they look upon those in the Fire;(3757-61) "And where it not for my Lord's blessing/goodness I would have been from the made attending (the fire). So we are not going to die except our first death/lifelessness, and we are not with being tortured/punished, SURELY this is the supreme achievement! Similar to THIS so the strivers should strive!
This indeed is not easy, and it puts a lot into perspective and makes us grow and during the course of doing this, we come across discoveries,truths, we have a sense of what we are obligated to do, we want to better ourselves and others etc etc(i could go on) which is why i believe we have been asked to do this.
We have been asked to be responsible for our hearing, eyesight and intellect, ect, we have not been asked to accept any story with no proof. We are told not to pursue that which we have NO KNOWLEDGE.
Not because we HAVE to see something before we believe it OR we MUST personally witness every sign.
What is the purpose for SHOWING US(vision) the signs in the horizons and within our minds UNTIL it becomes CLEAR(vision) to us? Are we responsible or not for our SEEING?
Also we are responsible for our hearing? How? Do you recall when a slander was made against a chaste woman and that which was HEARD but not SEEN was promoted, did the god approve of that? Please answer.
Thus in the end...all of us are in the same boat of having faith as the rest who believe that God's promise is the truth..because there are some things we just can't personally witness.
Only those things we have no buisness pursuing cannot be witnessed D
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
As to your other posts
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I don't understand, my understanding is the VERY SAME as MQuran, but you agree with him and differ with me? How is that? If you agree that these states are going on right now, then why cantyou SEE/WITNESS them yourself? How can you say you agree that they are going on right now if you have not WITNESSED them?Mquran agrees that we don't have to personally witness...you don't according to our discussions about moses' stick...then in another post you
Oh, perhaps I was incorrect. But let me ask MQ myself.
MQ, do you promote the idea that it is certain that a man once literally split the sea and turned a stick into a snake?
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I also agree one must have faith in the Unseesn because it cannot be witnessed with the eyes, but we can SEE/WITNESS the EFFECTS of the Unseen. Remember, everything is created in PAIRS, we can address it from both sides. The EFFECT part seems to be the experience.Now you say that we must have faith in the unseen as we cannot witness with the eyes...why don't you insist on that when talking about moses' stick or the cities or the prophets?
In the process, the UNSEEN EFFECTS the SEEN, so this is how we have KNOWLEDGE of Wind, energy, thoughts, etc because they EFFECT the PHYSICAL REALM. We EXPERIENCE the UNSEEN, through SEEING/WITNESSING the effects in the physical realm. There is a yin and yang to all things, the God CREATES in pairs. We are born only SEEING the realm of EFFECTS, but our journey is to the realm of causes. When we WITNESS the SIGNS(effects) all around us, we begin our search for the CAUSE! D Then finally the BALANCE (salaat is the balancing process) of "heaven and earth", or PEACE.
Is it inconceivable that these events could have occured?
According to any available evidence? Yes, it is inconcievable. But we don't even need to worry about that.
The effects of the unseen have an inconsistency in the example you gave above, i have tried to put this across...otherwise we should discuss the statement, would sincerely like to. Everything is created in pairs eh? Truths have sides to them? Physical as well as symbolic? Everything has an effect...it is all linked.
YOU are misinterpreting the link, If I said it was raining cats and dogs, that is a metaphor to help you understand something, does it follow that at some point there must be a day when dogs and cats literally fall out of the sky? This is where your logic is leading you. I'm trying to show you the alternative through the authorized concept of debate(hajja).
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Sure, its about perception, I find that the people who HATE me talking about symbolisms tend to discard all of my understandings. I think this was a clear example.This was something like the psychology behind Good cop, Bad cop
Brother Kyle, I don't hate you talking about symbolisms...i have used your understandings in many ways...if you could only see how many people i have used some of your understandings on like muslim is not a title etc etc you were the first person i read that had those opinions...I sincerely appreciate and read with great interest your posts. They always teach me something new. Believe me, i have the utmost respect for you, i would never claim to disregard your opinion..it has always taught me a lot.
I thank the God within you and all of us for the kind words, may the God continue to increase us all in knowledge. D
This discussion revolves around our old favorite topic...and i must say i jump in with enthusiasm to discuss with you specifically...the only bone of contention arises when you insist the other way isn't right
I am very honored at the statements and again refer thanks to the God within us all for the kind words. I hope that you will be patient with me as I continue to try to change your perception on this "bone of contention".
(** On a very serious side note, I have heard that statement before, but I don't truly understand how it developed. Does anyone witnessing this discussion know what it comes from? I am studying something else right now which came to mind when I heard that phrase***)
...then i obviously have to discuss why i think it's right.
Respected, and I apologize for the incorrect assesment of your intentions. YOU are indeed doing what a righteous seeker of truth must do, debate thier position to see if it stands. I was unable to see that and apologize for it.
Eventually, to you your way to me mine...but this is about a discussion of why we believe the way we do and what problems our reasonings have...so we are better able to deal with them and if possible to refine them.
Yes, you are absolutely correct, I hope I have given a very convincing argument in this post and the last, I look foward to your reply.
And as you say, inthe end it is always "to you your way and to me mine", very mush respected.
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Peace brother Kyle D
Very interesting and thought provoking discussions for me and i hope for everyone...
I just recognize that when the human "sighs" it is the release of tension.
Yes indeed, we all take deep breaths to release the tension...and thats what i did while starting my post, i hope you approve? lol
Give an example that we can work with so I can check myself and see if that is the case.
City of iram...the reading says to look at the ruins among us to glean the past...we have archeological evidence which is much worthy imo than to just overlook...as i have mentioned, differences in peoples experiences/inclinations will lead them to search for truth in different places...These parts are of the WHOLE...ALL these different truths lead to a better picture of the whole.
Whose spin SHOULD I be using? I have to follow what is inspired to me. And what kind of message is given where the recipient cannot understand? I disagree with that philosophy.
You ONLY understand what you can. Different people will understand differently...there are different ways to reach the truth...what matters is that we reach it.
I don't think the goal is to understand the Universe in entirety, but we can understand the guidance given to us so we can move through our lives efficiently. So for example, I don't forsee myself throwing any sticks and changing them into snakes, but I do forsee myself engaging in debates.
I do not forsee myself having to build any Arks, but I do forsee myself having to build a stable system around myself so that the instability of society does not effect me.
I think our different perceptions lead us to different facets of truth no matter what time period we are from. Your understanding makes sense to you and others that think that way. My understanding makes sense to me and others that think that way. We can also combine understandings at one point if we realise it doesn't matter how we reach the truth, rather that we get there. Doesn't make any truth more superior to the other or better than.
You see, I cannot logically deny that Jesus dies on the cross and was ressurected literally if I am going to blindly believe that sticks turn to snakes and seas spilt at the touch of a stick.
I respect your right to believe as you do as you have your reasons for believing them as do i.
The evidence I have is when one looks deep within and sees that all things are really ENERGY. As we are taught in grade school, energy cannot be destroyed. This energy is the substance of the ONE to whom we will return in the end. So as the God says, do not say of those who are killed in the God's path "They are dead". Energy is never destroyed and we can witness that scientifically.
These were questions put to atheists...not a believer. I agree with this reasoning, but it is not proof except to those that believe unless they witness resurrection personally.
They are constant as long as YOU are constant. Thats why we are told not to die EXCEPT in a state of peaceful submissiveness(islam).
It doesn't answer the query of an atheist as they can question that constancy is in a state of perpetual flux in this life, how will it be constant in the next? All it takes is dying in submission? Obviously the answers are deeper but the point was that there is no direct evidence even then...it is logic/reasoning whatever, a theory until the event occurs...NO absolute confirmation.
Where is the inconsistency?
The inconsistency is demanding absolute confirmation of sticks turning into snakes and not doing that for the examples of heaven and hell and life after death...you do NOT have absolute confirmation until the said event comes to pass...thus the verses
3652 Crying Woe upon us! Who hath raised us from our place of sleep? This is that which the Beneficent did promise, and the messengers spoke truth.
3974 And they shall say (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has made good to us His promise, and He has made us inherit the land; we may abide in the garden where we please; so goodly is the reward of the workers.
When the said event occurs, we have absolute confirmation. Before that it is just theory which we may choose to believe in, each according to our own reasons.
I am lost as to what you are stating here. Are you saying that under the LAWS that God has placed us in, that sticks transmutate to snakes? Please elaborate.
Do you have complete knowledge of God's laws? How do you know that there is no such law that requires the right circumstances to come forth and transmutate matter at the right time? Oh, the next q shall be, what would God want with such an example of a stick that we can't personally witness like the sun rising everyday...well I don't know God's mind brother, no one is qualified to know that...but i do know the laws of thermodynamics state that seemingly impossible things are NOT impossible. They are possible and encompassed within the system.
Let me ask you a question here put in a way you like to use...What would God want with such examples? God shows us His signs everywhere and in the universe (if we study it) of what His system is capable of. Is it chaos God wants us to see? Or is it the observation that everything is possible in God's universe according to the inbuilt system of laws which God is in full control of? As has been oft repeated here, God has no need to break ANY of His laws, He knows best how to acheive any set of outcomes without breaking any laws, incidentally, that He created in the first place.
Do you know if the transmutation of matter like a stick to snake is possible within His system? According to the evidence of the laws we know about, it is possible NOT impossible. Thus it is possible for a stick to turn into a snake according to the laws of the system. This might be unlikely but it IS possible.
Now the next question you will ask is, what does God mean by such an example? What do we learn from such an example? My answer to this question is, we learn what we are inspired from this example. Not to contest whether it actually happened because it can, incidentally, it also did happen in the reading. For some it might be debate, for some it spur the desire to work in plasma energy to reach truths hitherto undiscovered.
It's all varied and part of the whole.Different? The God says consistently that there is NO CHANGE in His way(sunna). The God does not change real sticks into real snakes for one group of people and not the rest, because if He did, that would be a change in His Way (sunna). Do you think the God LITERALLY turned some humans into Apes and Pigs?
This is a completely illogical argument. There is no change in the message of monotheism...there is no change in His laws...then whats the problem? Everything can be encompassed within the system without breaking His laws and without chaos as God is in full control...what makes you think you are the same as the people with moses? You are different BUT you learn from their example...does not mean the actual example did not take place. God gives one set of people different things than the rest, is that a change in His sunna? Please answer the last question.
I hear you saying we should allow for minor variations, but wether it is major or minor, isnt that a change in the God's Way? The God has created according to a PATTERN(fitra), He does not change this to convine humans, it is the HUMAN UNDERSTANDING that must change, not the God's creation.
No it isn't. God has made us with differences and every set of people, every individual has different lives within each time period. Each is tested differently, is that not God's way? These differences are big and small, they encompass ALL possibilities God's system has. There is no confusion or conflict. Are you the best judge of the differences God has given people or God in His eternal wisdom? We need to change our preconceived notions of God and accept that He in is wisdom is capable and in control of ALL things and is the best judge of WHY and HOW things must happen they way the have, and do and will. Then are you going to complain, why you are not given what moses was given?
It can be "termed" by anyone, but can they prove it? Thats what I seek, proof.
Brother, even you can't have absolute confirmation until the event passes. No one can until the event passes. It is illogical to say i know what tomorrow brings...you can reason what it might bring but can't have absolute confirmation until tomorrow passes.
Yes, you noticed yet another sign of the ressurection, sleep YOu see how they continue to come? We don't have to just believe the statements of Humans, otherwise we should believe in Santa Claus, Boogey man, Hercules, Superman, etc. The God instead promises that WE will...
Indeed, God promises that we WILL.
Yes, even stones and iron are nothing but ENERGY. This is PROVEN in Science. As well another sign, we are already here, we are WITNESSING/SEEING our very own creation (because we are not our bodies, they are mere vessels). But many still question after so much evidence, "What! when we are reduced to bones and dust, should we really be raised up (to be) a new creation"?
Logical deductions, theories based on knowledge and reasoning. No absolute confirmation. That is why the disbelievers reject, because they are too lazy/arrogant to connect the dots...they only believe what they see imo...and have their justifications for perverting what they do see into something else.
You know, thats a good question to ask the people of Isa's (Jesus) time. It is claimed that he raised the dead to life, so if it LITERALLY HAPPENNED, as you said "why on earth would ANYONE deny it?"
Surely not the believers, even the unbelievers twist the truth around after they know, how they justify it is another issue, maybe they explain it away as evident magic? You must own that we are talking generally, the exceptions when it comes to specific trials, signs, tests...there are a multitude of reasons why people do the things they do. If it was common knowledge that such and such occurs in every time period like the sun rising then it wouldn't be something that can be concealed. The times it can be concealed is when people who KNOW conceal it BUT God insists on perfecting His light.
242 And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
2146 The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.
371 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?
No, I disagree. The God said He would SHOW US His signs, not tell us to just believe. The God says that He PROVES the truth with his WORDS. Words are only sounds, sound is only the movement of particles from THE ENERGY(RUH)
The way we are shown the signs differ and will vary person to person. Some may see the same, some may see others depending on how God wills. It is illogical to assume that every time period will see the same signs when our knowledge during time is in a state of constant flux. There may be signs we are shown which were shown to people living way before us, or we are shown others...it all depends, is relative. Obviously, i agree we ALL must have reasons for believing that only God will judge the worth of such reasons eventually.
4153 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?
Imo, it is not logical that everyone will be shown the same signs. This will vary from person to person depending on their state of mind, experiences, inclinations and ultimately God's wisdom of who will benefit from what.
YOu are getting caught up on "if it did happen", my point is that it does not matter, if it did or not, but we cannot bear FALSE WITNESS and say it did for sure. WHat benefit does it hold for you to even have FAITH that it did happen literally? The guidance, the purpose for the story, comes out either way, with EVIDENCE THAT IS VERIFYABLE.
God tells us what happened. God is the witness and after the knowledge from the reading has reached you, you are responsibile for studying this knowledge to your best extent, using whatever means at your disposal to verify using reasoning to learn from it whatever you can. If you take a symbolic lesson from it, good for you, If one discovers an archeological discovery and learns from it, good for him. If one discovers a scientific process, good for him.
You can't eliminate the possibility that it didn't happen. You have no proof or evidence to eliminate it when the reading contains this knowledge that encompasses ALL levels of truth. You were NOT a witness to it, just like we are NOT a witness to life after death, it is news of the unseen. You only have a theory or opinion based on your mindset and your knowledge.
The reading says NO SUCH THING, infact it tells us the polar opposite as i've mentioned on the other thread before http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2838&highlight= Then how can you judge what people will take from these verses and how it will benefit them? If you can't judge then how can you ask for it to be eliminated from the physical level by the question, what can God mean by such an example? Do you possess God's complete wisdom and/or knowledge to make such a claim that it has no truth on the literal level? Only God knows in His infinite wisdom, that is why these verses are present. Different people will take different truths from it on ALL levels.
SO tell me, with this understanding, why is it so important to you that it did happen literally, why do you fight to protect that literal understanding?
I try to point out that the reading from God is the complete truth on ALL levels, not just generalisations or embodiments. I will point out that there is another side to the story, another level if you deny one. It is important because it renders parts of the quran false in the premise that it never actually happened the way it is told.
366 Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.
Look, put it this way...if you say you have no knowledge of it, then don't argue it didn't happen. Simple and precise. If someone say's it did happen according to the reading...and you say you have no knowledge of it...do not argue about it...you don't know. If you tell the other person to not uphold what he has no knowledge of, he can easily turn back and tell you that he has knowledge of it from the reading and has his reasons as to why he believes that it can happen. As this is news from the unseen, he doesnt need to witness with his eyes, having reasons/deductions are enough. And since you claim you have no knowledge, you have no basis of arguing with such a person. Refrain from it. Allah knows while you do not know.
NO, the knowledge hsa NOT reached us. KNOWLEDGE is KNOWING. YOu must VERIFY something in order to KNOW it, otherwise it is just "belief". It is only by SEEING the signs that the God is SHOWING(sight) US, that knowledge reaches us.
Your own personal definition brother? Ayats are not signs? The reading is NOT a sign? We do NOT have knowledge from the reading? We do NOT know by reading the quran? We use the knowledge from the quran to verify logically, deductively, intuitively the truth. Doesn't mean that unless your stick turns into a snake in front of your eyes, you then truly know. As we have seen, news from the unseen is not physically verifiable but reaches us nonetheless. We must use our abilities next to connect the dots depending on our mindset what is plausible and not plausible. Other factors such as the sciences, experience and intuition play their parts...if you read the quran and connect the dots as to why an event in the reading could be possible or conceivable, thats knowledge. As we know, imo, thats what we are required to do.
Does knowledge reach everybody the same way?
Thats because the mojority of the people, those who SAY these things, are blind believers, they do not require proofs, that is why certain people blindly believed that the earth was flat, meanwhile the culture of the Egyptains maintained that it was not flat, long before such blind beliefs were held of the earths flatness. Its all a matter of verification, most people do not do it.
People hold strange beliefs, the quran erases falsehood and confirms the truth. This statement is very revealing in the many ways it is used.
God states we are responsible for our senses, so we must use them to verify statements, not disregard them and think that sticks turn into snakes, what guidance is there in waiting for such a literal event to take place?
Don't have to see it to believe it as i've explained. Do you encompass ALL of the God's guidance and wisdom to make this statement? Do YOU have perfect knowledge/wisdom of what God means with this example? God guides with it who He chooses and misguides who He wills.
So how have you reasoned that sticks literally turn into snakes? We don't need to have faith in that, only have faith in the lesson which can be applied to so many circumstances in our everyday lives.
Brother Kyle, your definition of faith and what we need to have faith in cannot possibly encompass and cater to the millions and billions of different people on this earth.
The God's path is not facing a million different directions. That is why there is the concept of "hajja" debating, so that we can cultivate one focus(qibla) based on the God's observable laws(restrictions) that we should all hear and obey. It is the rejectoprs and hypocrites who have all these other directions/focuses(qibla), they do not even follow each others qibla! You see, we respect the ideas of others, but the seekers of knowledge participate in hajja/debate so they can KNOW, not just believe.
God's path is a straight path, that in it's wisdom guides many people differently to it. What matters is that we reach it, no matter what our understandings might be...there are many different understandings and they are NOT mutually exclusive of the truth.
Also we are responsible for our hearing? How? Do you recall when a slander was made against a chaste woman and that which was HEARD but not SEEN was promoted, did the god approve of that? Please answer.
God explains to us His signs...unless we have four witnesses we cannot believe they were unchaste. The reading clarifies what we are to do regarding accusations in such a situation...and what we are NOT to do in such a situation. We should read the entire passage in context.
2404 And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-
2405 to
2411 Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous.
2412 Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie"?
2413 Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!
So now that we have the clear truth from the reading...we see that God did not approve of the fact that there weren't 4 witnesses and yet this person was being accused. Reading the chapter puts this across very clearly.
Only those things we have no buisness pursuing cannot be witnessed
Then we shouldn't pursue the fact in the reading that we have life after death? Once again, we do NOT need to witness the news of the unseen with our eyes. We work it out, like we work everything else out. Whatever is mentioned in the reading is worth pursuing.
Nadia
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Peace bro Kyle,
Oh, perhaps I was incorrect. But let me ask MQ myself.
MQ, do you promote the idea that it is certain that a man once literally split the sea and turned a stick into a snake?
Imho, that is a very different question than what should be asked in the context and what mquran has written in his post. Are you guilty of leading the witness Kyle?
According to any available evidence? Yes, it is inconcievable. But we don't even need to worry about that.
According to your knowledge? But the knowledge you are given is little.
YOU are misinterpreting the link, If I said it was raining cats and dogs, that is a metaphor to help you understand something, does it follow that at some point there must be a day when dogs and cats literally fall out of the sky? This is where your logic is leading you. I'm trying to show you the alternative through the authorized concept of debate(hajja).
Brother, you have misunderstood what i am saying. I was talking about your statement and the way it was phrased as being semantically incorrect. If you have changed the statement and/or explained your understanding, that is enough for me. I will study your understanding further.
I thank the God within you and all of us for the kind words, may the God continue to increase us all in knowledge.
Indeed, and the God within me tells me to write you are welcome.
(** On a very serious side note, I have heard that statement before, but I don't truly understand how it developed. Does anyone witnessing this discussion know what it comes from? I am studying something else right now which came to mind when I heard that phrase***)
I think it might mean the feuds people had, especially during bloody feuds , their contention would span generations by which time the original feud had already become history/bones as the bodies of those killed originally...or it could mean two doggies fighting over a bone? lol
Respected, and I apologize for the incorrect assesment of your intentions. YOU are indeed doing what a righteous seeker of truth must do, debate thier position to see if it stands. I was unable to see that and apologize for it.
I apologize for not coming across more clearly...commonly a problem on a forum such as this.
Yes, you are absolutely correct, I hope I have given a very convincing argument in this post and the last, I look foward to your reply.
Always look forward to discussion with you.
Nadia
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Peace be upon you Sister Nadia,
Peace brother Kyle
Very interesting and thought provoking discussions for me and i hope for everyone...
Thank you.
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I just recognize that when the human "sighs" it is the release of tension.Yes indeed, we all take deep breaths to release the tension...and thats what i did while starting my post, i hope you approve?
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Give an example that we can work with so I can check myself and see if that is the case.City of iram...the reading says to look at the ruins among us to glean the past...we have archeological evidence which is much worthy imo than to just overlook...as i have mentioned, differences in peoples experiences/inclinations will lead them to search for truth in different places...These parts are of the WHOLE...ALL these different truths lead to a better picture of the whole.
I will try to concentrate on this topic for the next few days. I have never had the chance to reflect on this story so I have no answer at this time. Please be patient with me while I take a long look at this.
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Whose spin SHOULD I be using? I have to follow what is inspired to me. And what kind of message is given where the recipient cannot understand? I disagree with that philosophy.You ONLY understand what you can. Different people will understand differently...there are different ways to reach the truth...what matters is that we reach it.
I agree that people reach the truth in different ways, and debating helps us to bring those differnt paths together. Until we do, we are following different focuses(qiblas), and we should all be united on out focus(qibla).
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I don't think the goal is to understand the Universe in entirety, but we can understand the guidance given to us so we can move through our lives efficiently. So for example, I don't forsee myself throwing any sticks and changing them into snakes, but I do forsee myself engaging in debates.I do not forsee myself having to build any Arks, but I do forsee myself having to build a stable system around myself so that the instability of society does not effect me.
I think our different perceptions lead us to different facets of truth no matter what time period we are from. Your understanding makes sense to you and others that think that way. My understanding makes sense to me and others that think that way. We can also combine understandings at one point if we realise it doesn't matter how we reach the truth, rather that we get there. Doesn't make any truth more superior to the other or better than.
So what is your understanding of the above subject of "building an ark"? Is it different? And if so, how do we arrive at the same conclusion if your understanding is different?
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You see, I cannot logically deny that Jesus dies on the cross and was ressurected literally if I am going to blindly believe that sticks turn to snakes and seas spilt at the touch of a stick.I respect your right to believe as you do as you have your reasons for believing them as do i.
I always respect your right, but this concept must be debated for the simple fact that when one is confronted with the leader of a wicked society or just small group, I don't want them to start throwing sticks at him/her, I would rather see that person deliver a strong argument that swallows up falsehood. Which would you rather see?
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The evidence I have is when one looks deep within and sees that all things are really ENERGY. As we are taught in grade school, energy cannot be destroyed. This energy is the substance of the ONE to whom we will return in the end. So as the God says, do not say of those who are killed in the God's path "They are dead". Energy is never destroyed and we can witness that scientifically.These were questions put to atheists...not a believer. I agree with this reasoning, but it is not proof except to those that believe unless they witness resurrection personally.
Proof is proof, how can it be proof to one set of people and not to the other? My point is, this is VERIFYABLE proof, but I do also understand that even if I showed them ALL the signs, they will not believe. But that does not mean the proof is not there.
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They are constant as long as YOU are constant. Thats why we are told not to die EXCEPT in a state of peaceful submissiveness(islam).It doesn't answer the query of an atheist as they can question that constancy is in a state of perpetual flux in this life, how will it be constant in the next? All it takes is dying in submission? Obviously the answers are deeper but the point was that there is no direct evidence even then...it is logic/reasoning whatever, a theory until the event occurs...NO absolute confirmation.
We are LIVING The direct evidence! We came from NOTHING and now we are living, why would one think this cannot be duplicated? Energy is neither created nor destroyed says the scientists that the athiests look up to. What more direct evidence do we need? Maybe I am not understanding the question.
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Where is the inconsistency?The inconsistency is demanding absolute confirmation of sticks turning into snakes and not doing that for the examples of heaven and hell and life after death...you do NOT have absolute confirmation until the said event comes to pass...thus the verses
3652 Crying Woe upon us! Who hath raised us from our place of sleep? This is that which the Beneficent did promise, and the messengers spoke truth.
This happens all the time. Most people are in a waking sleep, and they are awakened one day to reality.
3974 And they shall say (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has made good to us His promise, and He has made us inherit the land; we may abide in the garden where we please; so goodly is the reward of the workers.
Again, the "garden" is a state of mind, we can have the garden RIGHT NOW. Why is it assumed that these verses are about after one's physical vessel is in the grave?
When the said event occurs, we have absolute confirmation. Before that it is just theory which we may choose to believe in, each according to our own reasons.
Yes, and these events are occuring everyday.
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I am lost as to what you are stating here. Are you saying that under the LAWS that God has placed us in, that sticks transmutate to snakes? Please elaborate.Do you have complete knowledge of God's laws? How do you know that there is no such law that requires the right circumstances to come forth and transmutate matter at the right time? Oh, the next q shall be, what would God want with such an example of a stick that we can't personally witness like the sun rising everyday...well I don't know God's mind brother, no one is qualified to know that...but i do know the laws of thermodynamics state that seemingly impossible things are NOT impossible. They are possible and encompassed within the system.
No I don't have complete knowledge of the God's laws, but again, the God tells us to reflect, and when I do so, I cannot see myself debating a magician by throwing sticks, that story taken literally does nothing for me. WHen I understand that itis speaking of debating and showing people how what we think is rigid/solid, is really ENERGY, so that the human can see ALL is ONE, then I can apply it to my life. This is what I am seeking , REAL APPLICABLE RESULTS (A beautiful mind's fans will appreciate that)
DLet me ask you a question here put in a way you like to use...What would God want with such examples? God shows us His signs everywhere and in the universe (if we study it) of what His system is capable of. Is it chaos God wants us to see? Or is it the observation that everything is possible in God's universe according to the inbuilt system of laws which God is in full control of? As has been oft repeated here, God has no need to break ANY of His laws, He knows best how to acheive any set of outcomes without breaking any laws, incidentally, that He created in the first place.
Do you know if the transmutation of matter like a stick to snake is possible within His system? According to the evidence of the laws we know about, it is possible NOT impossible. Thus it is possible for a stick to turn into a snake according to the laws of the system. This might be unlikely but it IS possible.
Yes, the Governing Intelligence is CAPABLE of ANYTHING, but He created the world on a certain PATTERN so that we can recieve guidance by this pattern. The Big Bang spewed out the elements in the periodic table in STRICT mathematical sequences, there is no change in the God's way. How many times do we throw a stick and it doesn't turn into a snake before we disregard this concept as literal? Is the guidance that we should hope that when we are in need, the God will CHANGE the law of sticks?
But again, the point is that we were not there, so we CANNOT promote the LITERAL understanding of this. We have no KNOWLEDGE of that and we are NOT TO pursue that which we have no knowledge of.
Now the next question you will ask is, what does God mean by such an example? What do we learn from such an example? My answer to this question is, we learn what we are inspired from this example. Not to contest whether it actually happened because it can, incidentally, it also did happen in the reading. For some it might be debate, for some it spur the desire to work in plasma energy to reach truths hitherto undiscovered.
It's all varied and part of the whole.Inresponse to the humans desire to research plasma energy, we certainly don't need a story about a stick turning into a snake, the Universe is filled with signs to inspire one to seek further. But tell me, does one have to have interest in plasma energy to be able to get guidance from this story? What about the average ordinary person who is weighing evidence? What about the athiest who did not know that all things were ENERGY, therefore things that look stable like sticks and mountains are really waves of energy (like the movement of a snake).
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Different? The God says consistently that there is NO CHANGE in His way(sunna). The God does not change real sticks into real snakes for one group of people and not the rest, because if He did, that would be a change in His Way (sunna). Do you think the God LITERALLY turned some humans into Apes and Pigs?This is a completely illogical argument. There is no change in the message of monotheism...there is no change in His laws...then whats the problem? Everything can be encompassed within the system without breaking His laws and without chaos as God is in full control...what makes you think you are the same as the people with moses? You are different BUT you learn from their example...does not mean the actual example did not take place. God gives one set of people different things than the rest, is that a change in His sunna? Please answer the last question.
I am not clear as to your response of humans being turned into literal apes and swine, is it your opinion that this really happened? Yes, the God gives signs to everyone, but according to the PATTERN He created of which there is no change. Yes, the God uses those before us as an EXAMPLE, how will you follow the EXAMPLE of throwing a stick and changing it into a snake? Please take me step by step through how you will follow this example.
****I am stopping here, This thread is getting too long and seems to be going no where. I have no knowledge of the literal events, so I will not pursue them, I will however get back to you regarding city of Iram.
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Peace be upon you Sister Nadia,
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Respected, and I apologize for the incorrect assesment of your intentions. YOU are indeed doing what a righteous seeker of truth must do, debate thier position to see if it stands. I was unable to see that and apologize for it.I apologize for not coming across more clearly...commonly a problem on a forum such as this.
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Yes, you are absolutely correct, I hope I have given a very convincing argument in this post and the last, I look foward to your reply.Always look forward to discussion with you.
Yes, I do intend to continue, but I don't want to participate in the very long posts, although I realize that I help create them, but they often times become hard to follow and questions to do get properly addressed. Perhaps we can start another thread to discuss why we should believe literally many of these statements.