Christians will be punished and are wicked???...
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There are two different things
That one may have got something wrong regarding God, or religion, or whatever.
nother thing is that in order not to go into the fire, one should have always been right in everything.
Nobody is ever right in everything and christians or whatever denomination do not need to be right in everything to be good and therefore be admeitted to God's bliss. Why if not would the Qur'an say that when we die and get in his presence He will clear all that in which we used to differ?
Salaam
Peace huruf,
I'm not sure if I understood all too well.
When you say there are 2 different things, where are these coming from? I haven't heard of the concept where someone has to always be right in order to not go into the "fire". Peace and living a life of harmony is the most important thing that will get you into paradise I.e. a state of eternal bliss. If you are angry, bitter and wrong yourself to the point where your ego takes over you and the anguish is uncontrollable, then you will be in a state of hell (pain and anguish for eternity).
I agree that the creator will tell us how we differed and why when we pass. But I still don't understand what God is saying when it says
572 Ingrates indeed are those who have said, "God is the Messiah son of Mary!" Although the Messiah had said, "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with God, then God will forbid paradise for him, and his destiny will be the fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
From my understanding, this verse is stating that rejectors say God is the messiah. So does it then not mean that Christians who believe in the trinity and believe God is the Messiah are rejectors AND are "wicked"? I have a problem with the accusation that they are wicked is what I'm saying.
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Christians say God is the Messia? Not those I know, they think that Christ is God, but not that God is christ.
I have never heard in my life as a cathoic or amongst catholics that God is christ, yes that Christ is God, and that there is only one God. Of course that is not amenable to logical thinking, but I do not see either that cahtolics really sprain their brain to square the circle with that, they just pay lip service to it and leave it. But they believe in one only God.
So I do not think that they fit the aya you have mentionned.
Salaam
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Christians say God is the Messia? Not those I know, they think that Christ is God, but not that God is christ.
I have never heard in my life as a cathoic or amongst catholics that God is christ, yes that Christ is God, and that there is only one God. Of course that is not amenable to logical thinking, but I do not see either that cahtolics really sprain their brain to square the circle with that, they just pay lip service to it and leave it. But they believe in one only God.
So I do not think that they fit the aya you have mentionned.
Salaam
Peace huruf,
I've heard from my mum's mates (mum used to regard herself as Catholic but rejects a lot of catholism so she isn't really one) that they believe Christ is God. Maybe I'm being silly but I don't see much of a difference between someone saying God is Christ or Christ is God.... Plus, in that case, if someone said God is Christ, still, how can they be defined as "wicked"?
Or more simply, who are the wicked mentioned in 572? And people who say trinity (even if they are just paying lip service?) Will have a painful retribution as per 573?
peace
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Christianity is still highly debatable......for Christians. Actually, that is why, it has several divisions and some new ones are still forming. The issues are concept of God (mostly trinity) and Cross. There maybe more. I actually got confused when I was reading about Christianity back in bachelor. But whatever I studied allowed me to understand that not all Christian groups view Jesus and God in the same way. Hence, not all Christians are same.
There are some groups that reject the Trinity fully or have their own notion on the relationship between God and Jesus. I think that will clarify your doubt. Here are some groups
- Jehovah's Witnesses
teach that only God the Father, Jehovah, is the one true almighty God, even over his Son. They consider Jesus to be "the First-begotten Son", God's only direct creation, and the very first creation by God. They give relative "worship" or "obeisance" (homage, as to a king) to Christ, pray through him as God's only high priest, consider Jesus Christ to be Mediator and Messiah, but they believe that only the Father is without beginning, and that the Father is greater than the Son in all things; only Jehovah the Father therefore is worthy of highest worship or "sacred service". They believe that the Son had a beginning, and was brought forth at a certain point, as "the firstborn of all creation" and "the only-begotten". They identify Jesus as the Archangel Michael, mentioned in the Bible at Jude 9. They believe he left heaven to become Jesus Christ on earth, and that after his ascension to heaven he resumed his pre-human identity.
- Church of God General Conference
List of things they believe in
the oneness of God (1 Cor. 86)
that the Holy Spirit is God's power Acts 18
Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son (Matt. 1616), and is our Mediator (1 Tim. 25)
the Bible is the inspired Word of God (2 Tim. 316)
the mortality of man (Job 417; Psa. 1464)
the near return of Christ (Acts 111), and life only through Him (Col. 33)
the literal resurrection of the dead (John 528, 29)
the immortalization of those in Christ (1 Cor. 1553, 54)
the destruction of the wicked (Rev. 21
the final restoration of Israel as the Kingdom of God under the kingship of Christ (Luke 132)
the church to be joint heirs with Christ (Rom. 817), and Israel to be made head over Gentile nations (Isa. 6013)
the "restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began" Acts 321
it also firmly advocates repentance and immersion in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 23, and a consecrated life as essential to salvation (Heb. 1214) http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_General_Conference- Cooneyites (now divided into two groups, they don't like groupism and prefer to be regarded as Christian only)
They apparently ignore the concept of the Trinity and believe that God, the Father, is a single deity, undivided, and not three persons.
bullet Jesus is viewed as the son of God, a being separate from the Father.
bullet The Holy Spirit is seen as a force or power emanating from God, not a person within the Trinity.http//www.religioustolerance.org/chr_2x2.htm- Unitarians and Unitarian Universalists
There are presently a number of small Christian groups calling themselves ?biblical unitarians? (or Christian monotheists or one God believers)to distinguish themselves from late 19th to 21st century Unitarians and Unitarian Universalists. Their arguments draw on early modern unitarian sources, while eschewing some of the idiosyncrasies of Socinus's theology and most of the extra revisions of the Priestley-derived stream of unitarians. Like late 18th to early 19th century unitarians, they argue at length that trinitarianism has no biblical foundation, and is inconsistent with its clear teachings. They also reject trinitarianism as contradictory or unintelligible, as involving idolatry, and as having been, as it were, illegally imported from Platonic philosophy (Buzzard 2007; Buzzard and Hunting 1999; Graeser et al. 2000; Snedeker 199. On some issues they draw support from recent biblical scholarship, for example, the point that talk of ?generation? and ?procession? in the gospel of John doesn't support later claims about inter-trinitarian relations (Buzzard and Hunting 1999, 306?. Although this literature points out real tensions within contemporary theology (between text-oriented commentators and systematic theologians) it is widely ignored in academic theology and philosophy, and its adherents are generally excluded from the institutions of mainstream Christianity. http//plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/unitarianism.html
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Christianity is still highly debatable......for Christians. Actually, that is why, it has several divisions and some new ones are still forming. The issues are concept of God (mostly trinity) and Cross. There maybe more. I actually got confused when I was reading about Christianity back in bachelor. But whatever I studied allowed me to understand that not all Christian groups view Jesus and God in the same way. Hence, not all Christians are same.
There are some groups that reject the Trinity fully or have their own notion on the relationship between God and Jesus. I think that will clarify your doubt. Here are some groups
- Jehovah's Witnesses
teach that only God the Father, Jehovah, is the one true almighty God, even over his Son. They consider Jesus to be "the First-begotten Son", God's only direct creation, and the very first creation by God. They give relative "worship" or "obeisance" (homage, as to a king) to Christ, pray through him as God's only high priest, consider Jesus Christ to be Mediator and Messiah, but they believe that only the Father is without beginning, and that the Father is greater than the Son in all things; only Jehovah the Father therefore is worthy of highest worship or "sacred service". They believe that the Son had a beginning, and was brought forth at a certain point, as "the firstborn of all creation" and "the only-begotten". They identify Jesus as the Archangel Michael, mentioned in the Bible at Jude 9. They believe he left heaven to become Jesus Christ on earth, and that after his ascension to heaven he resumed his pre-human identity.
- Church of God General Conference
List of things they believe in
the oneness of God (1 Cor. 86)
that the Holy Spirit is God's power Acts 18
Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son (Matt. 1616), and is our Mediator (1 Tim. 25)
the Bible is the inspired Word of God (2 Tim. 316)
the mortality of man (Job 417; Psa. 1464)
the near return of Christ (Acts 111), and life only through Him (Col. 33)
the literal resurrection of the dead (John 528, 29)
the immortalization of those in Christ (1 Cor. 1553, 54)
the destruction of the wicked (Rev. 21
the final restoration of Israel as the Kingdom of God under the kingship of Christ (Luke 132)
the church to be joint heirs with Christ (Rom. 817), and Israel to be made head over Gentile nations (Isa. 6013)
the "restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began" Acts 321
it also firmly advocates repentance and immersion in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 23, and a consecrated life as essential to salvation (Heb. 1214) http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_General_Conference- Cooneyites (now divided into two groups, they don't like groupism and prefer to be regarded as Christian only)
They apparently ignore the concept of the Trinity and believe that God, the Father, is a single deity, undivided, and not three persons.
bullet Jesus is viewed as the son of God, a being separate from the Father.
bullet The Holy Spirit is seen as a force or power emanating from God, not a person within the Trinity.http//www.religioustolerance.org/chr_2x2.htm- Unitarians and Unitarian Universalists
There are presently a number of small Christian groups calling themselves ?biblical unitarians? (or Christian monotheists or one God believers)to distinguish themselves from late 19th to 21st century Unitarians and Unitarian Universalists. Their arguments draw on early modern unitarian sources, while eschewing some of the idiosyncrasies of Socinus's theology and most of the extra revisions of the Priestley-derived stream of unitarians. Like late 18th to early 19th century unitarians, they argue at length that trinitarianism has no biblical foundation, and is inconsistent with its clear teachings. They also reject trinitarianism as contradictory or unintelligible, as involving idolatry, and as having been, as it were, illegally imported from Platonic philosophy (Buzzard 2007; Buzzard and Hunting 1999; Graeser et al. 2000; Snedeker 199. On some issues they draw support from recent biblical scholarship, for example, the point that talk of ?generation? and ?procession? in the gospel of John doesn't support later claims about inter-trinitarian relations (Buzzard and Hunting 1999, 306?. Although this literature points out real tensions within contemporary theology (between text-oriented commentators and systematic theologians) it is widely ignored in academic theology and philosophy, and its adherents are generally excluded from the institutions of mainstream Christianity. http//plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/unitarianism.html
Peace reel,
It still doesn't answer my above concerns however I am aware that Unitarians and maybe Cooneyites are closest to what the Qur'an says. I also discovered that every translator translates the word said to be "wicked" in 572 when in further inspection, it should be wrongdoers... Which makes more sense.
That brings me onto the issue with trinity and how whoever doesn't stop saying trinity will suffer a painful punishment. As huruf said, this is usually just lip service where people have been brainwashed to believe in the trinity because of what the church has been teaching people. These ignorant people deserve a painful punishment? I disagree...
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Harmony to you,
I was more of a Christian before I encountered Quran for the first time, but I never accepted that Jesus literally was the son of God. There are probably quite a few people who think the idea of a divine son who dies on a cross sounds pretty lame.
And primarily the people, including Christians, will be punished for their actions more than idolatry. The physical worship and reverence of Jesus is detrimental because they miss the message he carried about assimilation with God. Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me", and by that he did not imply that he was a biological offspring but he meant he was "attuned".
The visualization of Jesus in the faith is detrimental because you create a concrete image of something to worship against the Commandments.
Have faith
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Salam Sushi,
To answer your question, "yes", all who maintain that God is a trinity, all who maintain that God is the Messiah, are deemed by God to be "rejecters/kufaar" and thus are destined for Hell.
As for the many great things they may have done in their lives, these will be like ashes blown by the wind (141.
Finally, the question of "why" is answered in 7172, where God tells us that all human creation has testified to the Lordship of God and that no claim can be made on the Day of Judgment that "we were not aware".
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Peace huruf,
I've heard from my mum's mates (mum used to regard herself as Catholic but rejects a lot of catholism so she isn't really one) that they believe Christ is God. Maybe I'm being silly but I don't see much of a difference between someone saying God is Christ or Christ is God.... Plus, in that case, if someone said God is Christ, still, how can they be defined as "wicked"?
Or more simply, who are the wicked mentioned in 572? And people who say trinity (even if they are just paying lip service?) Will have a painful retribution as per 573?
peace
That is it, most christians, certainly most catholics say they believe in trinity, but they obviously don't. They cannot even imagine how on earth that might work and do not care to imagine it, and besides, even the catholic authorities, that I know, never insist that you explain or intellectually go into it. It is a dogma, therefore you do not discuss it, say yes, and go on with your life without giving a damn about trinity. It is like being paid through the bank or in cash. You are not given a choice, you are paid through the bank or you are not paid. You do not believe the bank is sacred or is the real owner or whatever of you money. But if you get your money through it you are sure you are getting a money that is due to you. May be you should start a revolution to divest banks of the power to pay you your wages, but you do not have the mind nor the energy nor the need to start such a revolution. -that does not mean that you believe in the banks.
May be it is not such a good exampple, but that gives you an idea that cathoics and I think most christians do not believe in trinity, they say yes because they are morally obliged to if not they are discarded as non crhristians or heretics or excomunicated or whatever, but in fact the do not believe.
To believe in something is not to say you believe in something. It is like a man telling you he loves you and what he is after is something else, or even if he reallyb elieves he loves you in fact, after a week, he stops "loving" you. Is that the same thing as loving you? Sure not. How can any one mistake what one says for whatever reason and what one really believes?
I tell you christians do not believe in trinity any more than you and I, but the are bound to say that they do believe. The could not care less. Therefore there is n abyss of difference between believing and pay lipservice.
As for those who intellectually sustain trinity, in fact, they are saying that there is ony one god , but that for humans God isw manifested let us say with three avatars, or whatever you want to call it. Therefore they are sustaining three gods, but one God with three manifestations.
But there are people whether trinitarians or non christians who really associate to God. I remember a saying I don't know whose, which says that yu are an associato if you fear any other thing than God.
Well I can tell yu there are millions upon millions of associators in the earth self called muslims, even quranists, because most certainly they fear some or many things that are not God. That is if we are talking about real believes, and not about speech. In speech anyone can say anything, that does not mean that it is true. They may be cheating themselves or may be not, but they are merely lying with bad or good intention or with no intention at all, but that you say you believe int trinity (which is no the same as believing in three gods) does not mean by any stretch that you do believe in trinity.
In fact I do not knwo of anybody who believes in trinity, except may be in the intellectual shape that I have described, as a threfold manifestation but not as separate deities.
Also, we are speaking about today. I do not know which people the Qur'an may be adressing wtih that aya, because there is a religious history going back many centuries and in that stretch there have been many religions and many tendencies which may correspond or not to something there is today. At one time in the Qur'an it is spoken of trinity of mother father and son. Ehich obvioysly is not the trinity that is considered today, so we should not be quick, because we read christians, or people of the book or the like, to think that it is talking about something we have around. It is our though or over haste in connecting things which may be is not warranted.
I think we must be over careful when we adscribe, damnings and bad things to any saying of the Qur'an. We cannot do that without really, but really ascertaining that we are right in our assumptions. Otherwise we would be trespassing God's own attributions. And besides, we do not have to do that. If we fear that WE OURSELVES are may falling into error, then we should think for ourselves as to those warnings, but if that is not the case, is there reallya need for us to start distributing people in hell or in heaven or any where in the world or in the afterlife? I doubt it. For that God is enough.
Let us look after ouerselves that WE de not fall into those things we are warned off, and nto complicate our lives assuming things that we obviously cannot know, like who REALLY believes what, only God knows, and we have not been appointed by Him as His secretaries or supervisors, astaghfirullah.
Salaam
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So I was reading a few verses in chapter 5 (particularly 572-575). And I'm thinking... Is God saying that whoever continues to say "trinity" is one of the wicked?
How can someone who is naive be considered wicked? So say someone believes strongly in God but believes Jesus is God or believes God is 3, but they do good works (say, they are humble, compassionate and act humanely), how could they be instantly condemned as wicked? Or is this my faulty understanding? I've always believed that shirk and partnering or saying something is better than God is when people let their own personal egos go before godly actions I.e. being just loving and humble but their ego makes them arrogant and jealous and think that they are better than anyone else. I didn't think that just because someone prays to Jesus, then they are wicked. Most Christians acknowledge God is the "father" and creator of all anyone.
I'm just curious as I have a few Christian friends who ask me this question....
Peace peace
I share your opinion....
Just because they idolize something (e.g. idol or holy book) or someone (Jesus, Muhammad) doesn't necessarily makes them wicked...Better put your sanity above everything else...
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I actually liked sister huruf's commentary on the topic; about it simply being dogma and so generally accepted that no one is conscious of their belief or what they believe in.
Salaam
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Thanks Huruf for the response and everyone else. I realised that all translators seem to translate a certain word mentioned at the end as "wicked" when in fact wrongdoers is a better fit... However, on both occassions these people have been classified as hiding the truth (kaffir) and these hiders of truth are said to be setting partners up with the God and destined to hell. I can only see that it's saying if you say God is a third of three or that God is the messiah is a bad thing that seems to get you the coverer of truth status and the setting up of partners link. So what about Hindus? What about all the good hindus or the Christians who believe that God IS a third of the trinity that are good humane people? I can't see how they can be condemned to hell. Sure they might be wrong in what they do... But to be condemned to hell???
Input from others such as Samia or Wakas etc will be appreciated )
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Thanks Huruf for the response and everyone else. I realised that all translators seem to translate a certain word mentioned at the end as "wicked" when in fact wrongdoers is a better fit... However, on both occassions these people have been classified as hiding the truth (kaffir) and these hiders of truth are said to be setting partners up with the God and destined to hell. I can only see that it's saying if you say God is a third of three or that God is the messiah is a bad thing that seems to get you the coverer of truth status and the setting up of partners link. So what about Hindus? What about all the good hindus or the Christians who believe that God IS a third of the trinity that are good humane people? I can't see how they can be condemned to hell. Sure they might be wrong in what they do... But to be condemned to hell???
Input from others such as Samia or Wakas etc will be appreciated
Hi, Peace be unto you! The stance of the Qur'an seems to be (based on what it says), that those who Allah guides will be guided aright, and those who die in a state of disbelief or believing wrongly, do so because God has not given them guidance or led them aright. Everything God creates is information, and God creates everything in the experience of people, down to their thoughts and actions. God has created these things called "idolaters" and "evildoers" and whatever else, it is God who is ultimately responsible for their existence, and just like God has created fish that they should live in the sea, God has said that creation is made for hell.
People may not wish to hear this, and you have no need to state it to people like that necessarily if you are teaching them about Islam, but you can urge them away from their false conceptions, associations, and idolatry, if Allah wills you to do it, and if Allah wills, they may be guided thereby and correct themselves, or if Allah wills, he may use your words as evidence against them on the day of Judgment, and they will not be able to deny what they were made to be, what they were, and their rightful place, as Allah has power over all things, and decides all matters, so freely can place whomever in the fire, or harm anyone for any reason or no reason.
I know this answer may sound unsatisfying, but Allah promises that he is not a tyrant, and will do perfect justice, that not a single person who was actually good will be harmed in the least in the afterlife, and that Allah knows them fully, but you only see some things but not inside their minds and throughout their days.
If you have any other questions pertaining to Islam, I'm very happy to answer them by email at [email protected] and your questions and questioning helps me greatly since I get the opportunity to say these things and think of these answers by the grace of Allah!
Thank you again for your question, and I hope you don't mind my answer.
Shirk is considered the greatest sin, and the misunderstanding of the "Trinity" and considering Jesus to be God or the literal Son of God is considered extremely grave and tremendous, far more than other things, and though it may seem like nothing to us, we should meditate on what is wrong with these statements and why such a fuss is made in the Qur'an about it.
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Hi, Peace be unto you! The stance of the Qur'an seems to be (based on what it says), that those who Allah guides will be guided aright, and those who die in a state of disbelief or believing wrongly, do so because God has not given them guidance or led them aright. Everything God creates is information, and God creates everything in the experience of people, down to their thoughts and actions. God has created these things called "idolaters" and "evildoers" and whatever else, it is God who is ultimately responsible for their existence, and just like God has created fish that they should live in the sea, God has said that creation is made for hell.
People may not wish to hear this, and you have no need to state it to people like that necessarily if you are teaching them about Islam, but you can urge them away from their false conceptions, associations, and idolatry, if Allah wills you to do it, and if Allah wills, they may be guided thereby and correct themselves, or if Allah wills, he may use your words as evidence against them on the day of Judgment, and they will not be able to deny what they were made to be, what they were, and their rightful place, as Allah has power over all things, and decides all matters, so freely can place whomever in the fire, or harm anyone for any reason or no reason.
I know this answer may sound unsatisfying, but Allah promises that he is not a tyrant, and will do perfect justice, that not a single person who was actually good will be harmed in the least in the afterlife, and that Allah knows them fully, but you only see some things but not inside their minds and throughout their days.
If you have any other questions pertaining to Islam, I'm very happy to answer them by email at [email protected] and your questions and questioning helps me greatly since I get the opportunity to say these things and think of these answers by the grace of Allah!
Thank you again for your question, and I hope you don't mind my answer.
Shirk is considered the greatest sin, and the misunderstanding of the "Trinity" and considering Jesus to be God or the literal Son of God is considered extremely grave and tremendous, far more than other things, and though it may seem like nothing to us, we should meditate on what is wrong with these statements and why such a fuss is made in the Qur'an about it.
Important thing is to actually define what shirk is and if people just saying something is defined as shirk. If I was brought up continuously being told that a plank of wood is God.. would I find it easy to think otherwise? And even if I did think otherwise or not... Why am I condemned to hell?? What is belief in God? Why does not believing in the creator alone cause problems and cause you to go to hell/be stuck in the fire/illusion? There is more to it than it seems... That's why God asks you to ponder on it...
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Important thing is to actually define what shirk is and if people just saying something is defined as shirk. If I was brought up continuously being told that a plank of wood is God.. would I find it easy to think otherwise? And even if I did think otherwise or not... Why am I condemned to hell?? What is belief in God? Why does not believing in the creator alone cause problems and cause you to go to hell/be stuck in the fire/illusion? There is more to it than it seems... That's why God asks you to ponder on it...
The answer to me is very simple though, ultimately, it is all that way because God wants it to be that way. God could have made it different, and made it that worshiping idols is a thing of great virtue which gets people the highest rewards in this life and the next, but God didn't make it that way, instead God made it this specific way, where idolatry earns punishment and is something that will lead to harm. Thank you for your reply!
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The answer to me is very simple though, ultimately, it is all that way because God wants it to be that way. God could have made it different, and made it that worshiping idols is a thing of great virtue which gets people the highest rewards in this life and the next, but God didn't make it that way, instead God made it this specific way, where idolatry earns punishment and is something that will lead to harm. Thank you for your reply!
I rather not go by the "it is because Allah says so" motto. Logic and reason and careful study need to be applied to ensure that this is the closest possible understanding to have. I do not believe in a God that will send those to hell who worship God as Jesus and do good works. What is the issue when praying to the "wrong" creator (or one that actually isn't a creator) because they have been misled? If the trinity is what God is referring to in 573, then you must disprove the trinity in order to backup the claim that they are in the wrong. How to do this? The issue then occurs also in how you interpret injeel. I do not reckon it's the bible, but simply the word of isa. What are his words? Are they found in the bible? Is the trinity found in the original bibles?
Then you have to question Hindus and other religions which worship different Gods. They are all condemned to hell? Sounds a lot like the "Muslims" who say if you're not a "Muslim"/follower of the entire contents of the Qur'an you go hell. I never got that impression from God in the Qur'an and I reckon it is a deeper meaning.
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Salam Sushi.
My understanding about shirk (covering the situation of Christians) is presented in below thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606470.msg352563#msg352563
It may give you some food for thought.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Shirk is sectarianism. Mushrik is a sectarian.
Some assimilation regarding Jesus is accepted for this is what Jesus tried to teach. He taught assimilation with God and said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me", hinting at the symbiosis between affiliated "creation" and Father/Creator.
Jesus taught that the materialized and distant approach to God is wrong. But Jesus did never say he was some (biological) offspring of God, but said anyone could be like him if they just followed what he taught. He did affirm that the Father is the only reckoning power, but also that every person who wants to belong to the "Kingdom" should be in the Father (like him). He was incredibly misunderstood, people made a sect based on his teachings and conjectured and fabricated a lot of erroneous claims regarding him. Despite this, on a spiritual plane Christians are among the most ascended people. They just need to understand Jesus' words a bit better.
Kafar is producing something. In the context of Quran it usually refers to inventing/fabricating something, by mistake or deliberately. It can also speak of production in general. It does not necessarily need to carry a negative meaning.
Salaam
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I rather not go by the "it is because Allah says so" motto. Logic and reason and careful study need to be applied to ensure that this is the closest possible understanding to have. I do not believe in a God that will send those to hell who worship God as Jesus and do good works. What is the issue when praying to the "wrong" creator (or one that actually isn't a creator) because they have been misled? If the trinity is what God is referring to in 573, then you must disprove the trinity in order to backup the claim that they are in the wrong. How to do this? The issue then occurs also in how you interpret injeel. I do not reckon it's the bible, but simply the word of isa. What are his words? Are they found in the bible? Is the trinity found in the original bibles?
Then you have to question Hindus and other religions which worship different Gods. They are all condemned to hell? Sounds a lot like the "Muslims" who say if you're not a "Muslim"/follower of the entire contents of the Qur'an you go hell. I never got that impression from God in the Qur'an and I reckon it is a deeper meaning.
The Trinity can be understood in a good way too, the objection is that Jesus, information made by God, is God.
I wasn't trying to say "it is because Allah says so" in the way you might be imagining, but literally, that this religion of Islam is of the mentality that God does whatever God wants to do and no one can stop God, so if God wants to throw someone in the fire, who can stop God? Justice? God is unbound to anything, is unlimited, God can do whatever (is what I had meant).
517
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."See? I wasn't just saying "Allah says so" it is the very core of the religion of Islam.
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The Trinity can be understood in a good way too, the objection is that Jesus, information made by God, is God.
I wasn't trying to say "it is because Allah says so" in the way you might be imagining, but literally, that this religion of Islam is of the mentality that God does whatever God wants to do and no one can stop God, so if God wants to throw someone in the fire, who can stop God? Justice? God is unbound to anything, is unlimited, God can do whatever (is what I had meant).
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In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."See? I wasn't just saying "Allah says so" it is the very core of the religion of Islam.
"Islam" isn't a "religion" in the Qur'an... Just pointing that out to you. And I do know that, what I'm saying is you have to ponder on the true meaning. You have to take all verses relating to shirk into context like MoF and Armaniz have been talking about...
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"Islam" isn't a "religion" in the Qur'an... Just pointing that out to you. And I do know that, what I'm saying is you have to ponder on the true meaning. You have to take all verses relating to shirk into context like MoF and Armaniz have been talking about...
I don't know how you define the word "religion" but I very likely did not mean it in the way you interpreted it. I meant only to refer to this
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The Religion before Allah is Islam (surrender) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.385
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.Yes, it isn't a "specific religion" but the Universal Human Proto or Core religion of surrender. If you define the word religion in some very specific way, then I'm sorry for using that word and you can replace it with whatever word you prefer instead, such as Deen or whatever.
The Qur'an makes it quite clear that all matters will be Judged by God, that those who make partners with God will be judged accordingly too, and it may be that Allah forgives them, or it may be that he puts them into punishment, and Allah has power to do all things, even if it seems unjust right now to a person.
If you don't believe that, or like that, it is a matter of not really liking what the Qur'an seems to say on the matter. So in that case, there is no reason to hold on to the Qur'an, and if you find you can not interpret it in ways you prefer, and can not find anything useful in it, then one might be best served by writing a book of their own liking that says whatever they desire.
Though the Qur'an says that those who believe in false things will be punished, and seems to make a huge fuss about things like people saying Allah has had a son
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And to warn those who say Allah hath chosen a son,
(A thing) whereof they have no knowledge, nor (had) their fathers, Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.
But wouldst thou, perhaps, torment thyself to death with grief over them if they are not willing to believe in this message?
Verily We have made whatsoever is on the earth as an adornment thereof, that We may prove them - which of them is best in conduct.572-
Indeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, God is the Christ, son of Mary" - seeing that the Christ said, "O children of Israel! Worship God , who is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer." Behold, whoever ascribes divinity to any being beside God, unto him will God deny paradise, and his goal shall be the fire and such evildoers will have none to succour them!471-
God will bring to naught all the good deeds of those who are bent on denying the truth and bar from the path of God.55-
The deeds of anyone who rejects the faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.917-
IT IS NOT for those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God to visit or tend God's houses of worship, the while they bear witness against themselves that they are denying the truth. It is they whose works shall come to nought, and they who in the fire shall abide1988-
As it is, some assert, "The Most Gracious has taken unto Himself a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
whereat the heavens might well-nigh be rent into fragments, and the earth be split asunder, and the mountains fall down in ruins!
That men. should ascribe a son to the Most Gracious,
although it is inconceivable that the Most Gracious should take unto Himself a son!
There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave.
indeed, He has full cognizance of them, and has numbered them with numbering;
And each one of them will come unto Him on the Day of Resurrection, alone.
VERILY, those who attain to faith and do righteous deeds will the Most Gracious endow with love
And We make (this Scripture) easy in thy tongue, (O Muhammad) only that thou mayst bear good tidings therewith unto those who ward off (evil), and warn therewith the froward folk.
So the Qur'an seems to say that everyone will be Judged by Allah, that these lies are tremendous and it makes a huge fuss about them, that those who do not have this belief system, their works (good works) will be rendered ineffective and wasted (totally in vain).
God could be or do what seems entirely evil, but no one can stop God in what God decides to do, even if it is made by God to seem unjust to us.
So if the Qur'an is displeasing to you, and you find that it can not be interpreted in any way which is pleasing to you, and you don't believe that Allah can or does command these things in the way you perceive them, then there is no need to even worry about what the Qur'an says, like I've been saying to Samira in the other thread.
