Do you take the Qur'an literally?
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Are you sure?
Yes I am sure. Let me insert a line from my post again
Anyone can get guidance from it at anytime if it is approached with a clean slate, without any pre-conceived concepts, tafseers or reasons/incidents for revealing verses etc.Do you "free a slave" when you commit a sin? Ever done so?
Are you approaching Quran with a clean slate?
And do you hunt when you come out of ihram (at Hajj)? According to the Qur'an we should all hunt when coming out of ihram.
You have a pre-conceived concept about the word Hajj and Ihram and hunting.
Who does that at Hajj? There are many more examples believe me.
No I cannot believe you because I am a student of Quran and I do not find any stupidity in it.
During war God tells us to take all the women of the enemy and make them our "Jariyah" (Concubine).
Are you quoting Mullah's interpretation or original words of God?
Do you support that? ISIS does exactly that.
No I do not support any nonsense attributed to God through Mullah's interpretations. ISIS is a not following Quran they follow their Imams. -
There you go, polygamy for "certain conditions" all over again. I wonder if people actually take this seriously. Just sharing my opinion.
Polygamy is a concept to have many wives obviously for personal luxury. Commanding and making it obligatory for people to marry widows and married believing emigrants-wives of non-believers given asylum, if you eqate it with polygamy, I can only lament that you do not reflect upon the propositions that are inherent in words.
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Polygamy is a concept to have many wives obviously for personal luxury.
Meaning of polygamy The condition or practice of having more than one spouse at one time. No reason is specified, which means can be for any reason.
Commanding and making it obligatory for people to marry widows and married believing emigrants-wives of non-believers given asylum, if you eqate it with polygamy, I can only lament that you do not reflect upon the propositions that are inherent in words.
What do you mean, commanding and making it obligatory for people? If it was for single men such a ruling, it would have looked more worthy of God, although the commanding and making obligatory part would still be weird. For a married man, this is an on-the-face disrespectful attitude and a whack to his wife's need for fidelity and exclusiveness from her spouse, that too by a God who put these needs in her in the first place. If this is what the God of the Quran would have commanded, I would have ran away with my husband from this religion to safeguard myself, my children, and even my husband from getting torn apart due to having third-party intruders, with equal status, into our marriage and family. Not just that, grabbed other women and their families too away from such a religion to protect them. The believers can easily build asylums, and women and children shelters, for protection and safeguarding purposes, the men don't need to have a harem each to do the same.
This polygamy situation I have been studying for almost a year now. And discussed with other women in similar situations in this blog mainly
https//polygamy911.wordpress.com/Basically I have realized, two things; one both men and women want the exact same fidelity from each other. Two it doesn't matter for what reason your spouse takes another spouse, it still is extremely hurtful and you can't help but wish the other spouse away. And the strong bond in your marriage earlier would diminish, since at the end marriage is based on love and affection. These "practical life" talk is actually impractical in real life.
Peace.
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Basically I have realized, two things; one both men and women want the exact same fidelity from each other. Two it doesn't matter for what reason your spouse takes another spouse, it still is extremely hurtful and you can't help but wish the other spouse away. And the strong bond in your marriage earlier would diminish, since at the end marriage is based on love and affection. These "practical life" talk is actually impractical in real life.
Peace.
Not all people fill in relationships like that. You are entitled to your own understanding of what a relationship should be for you, but one shouldn't fill that in for others. If some couples don't mind multiple partners, then who are we to say they are not entitled to do so?
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Not all people fill in relationships like that. You are entitled to your own understanding of what a relationship should be for you, but one shouldn't fill that in for others. If some couples don't mind multiple partners, then who are we to say they are not entitled to do so?
If people are fine and happy living polyamorous lifestyles, I am happy for them as well. Only with one condition can this be a truly fulfilling and satisfying alternate lifestyle
Polygamy being a two-way street. In other words, if one partner goes for it (with full permission and knowledge of the other spouse), then his partner has full right to do the same. Otherwise, polygamy being exclusive for only one gender that too which is religiously stated so only has the potential to bring distress and harm.
I am speaking from experience of talking to numerous women personally and reading their stories as well to come to the above conclusion.
Peace.
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If people are fine and happy living polyamorous lifestyles, I am happy for them as well. Only with one condition can this be a truly fulfilling and satisfying alternate lifestyle
Polygamy being a two-way street. In other words, if one partner goes for it (with full permission and knowledge of the other spouse), then his partner has full right to do the same. Otherwise, polygamy being exclusive for only one gender that too which is religiously stated so only has the potential to bring distress and harm.
I am speaking from experience of talking to numerous women personally and reading their stories as well to come to the above conclusion.
Peace.
Only with one condition can this be a truly fulfilling and satisfying alternate lifestyle
=> This simply isn't true. I agree for most of us what you say would be the only valid terms for it, but you are ignoring there are people out there who are an exception to your rule and perfectly happy with it.
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For a married man, this is an on-the-face disrespectful attitude and a whack to his wife's need for fidelity and exclusiveness from her spouse, that too by a God who put these needs in her in the first place. If this is what the God of the Quran would have commanded, I would have ran away with my husband from this religion to safeguard myself, my children, and even my husband from getting torn apart due to having third-party intruders, with equal status, into our marriage and family.
You are not the only woman that Allah the Exalted has created; and you are not the only woman who is the audience of Qur'aan. Moreover, this stance is when you are by His Grace enjoying the company of husband, and you are not the subject of this discourse. The discourse we are discussing is not about you, it is about those women who have already lost their husband and are lonely with or without responsibility of father-orphan sons and daugters.
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You are not the only woman that Allah the Exalted has created; and you are not the only woman who is the audience of Qur'aan.
Yeah I am not married currently, but I can easily imagine the scenario, have married people as my friends, and have talked to married women and men regarding such topics. So many a time when I give opinions regarding such topics, it's not just on behalf of me, but for other women and men as well.
Regarding single women, seeing this kind of disrespect towards a woman's need for fidelity and exclusiveness from her mate, while giving absolute importance to a man's need for fidelity and exclusiveness from his mate, puts off single women from marriage as well, and even creates hatred and distrust of men in general. I am not kidding. I have seen numerous single women having such sub-conscious reactions to such type of statements.
Moreover, this stance is when you are by His Grace enjoying the company of husband, and you are not the subject of this discourse.
And by His Grace we women in the majority want to remain enjoying the exclusive companionship of our husbands. Otherwise marriage sounds more like scraps given to women telling them to be thankful that they can at least part-time "enjoy" having companionship, providence and care from husband.
The discourse we are discussing is not about you, it is about those women who have already lost their husband and are lonely with or without responsibility of father-orphan sons and daugters.
They can find their own husbands. Other people don't need to suffer because they lost their husbands or are lonely. Let me tell you one thing the enjoyment, contentment and happiness of the second wives is usually indirectly proportional to that of the first wives. Which means the second wife gets all this at the cost or expense of the first wife.
Words told to first wives regarding patience, they will be rewarded for their sacrifice, helping other women, etc, in order to comfort them are usually bull statements. The first wives may get a false comfort initially, which often wears off, and end up with distrust, distress, pain and disappearance of love in the first marriage, the love and sense of security being often times replaced by fear, hatred and need for competition with the other wife.
Also regarding loneliness, I have seen numerous single men also similarly lonely and have lost their wives in some way, and are deeply suffering as a result. They may have children who miss the nurture of a caring woman, even if for part-time, as a mother. Also for men they have more issues regarding their testosterone levels, which means they have high sex drives too, and can end up getting aggressive and cold due to lack of having a woman in their lives. So I would say polyandry would be just as viable a solution for these men just as polygyny would be for women in similar conditions. Hence either two-way polygamy should be legitimized, or no polygamy at all. My words also reflect much more practicality as well, since I came to these conclusions after talking to people and reading on some others in similar real-life situations, both men and women.
Peace.
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Salamun alaika, thanks for pointing out.
Firstly an order is given. Then a modification is introduced for those who cannot comply with the command giving them alternate options. A widow can be in two states; she has father-orphan progenies along with her; and she can be all by herself without progeny. Later will cause little financial obligations as compared to first one.
In the last sentence this point is mentioned. Just to let the reader know I have put it in parentheses, it can be removed; even if it is put without parentheses it will not be against the Arabic text since the subjunctive mood verb and it being rectifying clause for some men.What would you advise?
Salam Bro Mazar
You are one of those knowledgeable person in FM and agreed with most of what you put up. Since you asked for my advise, than it will be my honor.
0403 - And if you fear that you will not distribute justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of women, two or three or four. So if you fear that you will not be just, then one or those your right hand possesses . That is more suitable that you may not incline .
In order to comprehand the verse above, we need to cross examine 04127, which states
And they request from you, , a ruling concerning women. Say, "Allah gives you a ruling about them and what has been recited to you in the Book concerning the orphan women to whom you do not give what is decreed for them and you desire to marry them and the ones who are weak among children and that you stand for orphans with justice." And whatever you do of good - than indeed, Allah is ever Knowing of it.
As guardian of the orphans, one of the criteria is we must be able to distribute justly of what is with them. If we fear of not being just than it is practical to marry the women among the orphans. If we have intention to marry them but due to financial difficulties, than marry just one of them OR she under your protection and responsibility-believing woman in the fold of non-believer who migrated to believing society She whom Allah the Exalted in that state had brought-made her Ward under your authority and obligation. This is in conjunction with 0425
This is my understanding of the verse 0403.
Peace
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Salam Bro Mazar
You are one of those knowledgeable person in FM and agreed with most of what you put up. Since you asked for my advise, than it will be my honor.
0403 - And if you fear that you will not distribute justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of women, two or three or four. So if you fear that you will not be just, then one or those your right hand possesses . That is more suitable that you may not incline .
In order to comprehand the verse above, we need to cross examine 04127, which states
And they request from you, , a ruling concerning women. Say, "Allah gives you a ruling about them and what has been recited to you in the Book concerning the orphan women to whom you do not give what is decreed for them and you desire to marry them and the ones who are weak among children and that you stand for orphans with justice." And whatever you do of good - than indeed, Allah is ever Knowing of it.
As guardian of the orphans, one of the criteria is we must be able to distribute justly of what is with them. If we fear of not being just than it is practical to marry the women among the orphans. If we have intention to marry them but due to financial difficulties, than marry just one of them OR she under your protection and responsibility-believing woman in the fold of non-believer who migrated to believing society She whom Allah the Exalted in that state had brought-made her Ward under your authority and obligation. This is in conjunction with 0425
This is my understanding of the verse 0403.
Peace
Salamun alaika,
I am grateful for kind words and suggesting your view point about 403. Knowledge is in the Book. We need only tools-kit to acquire skill to retrieve knowledge from it. May be I use tools required for syntactic parsing of text and frequently revisit them to avoid erring.
Just to revisit basics of reading and understanding, a text comprises only of three things
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Word
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Phrase; and
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Sentence.
As we know a sentence comprises of nothing else than words and phrases. Thus, it is evident that merely knowing the meanings of words and phrases we may not necessarily understand what is stated in the sentence. Peculiar arrangement of words embeds meanings and perception which the speaker intends to communicate to listener or reader. This is what we call syntax.
If we keep revisiting grammar of English, we will not find grammar of Arabic much different. But we must know what is the function of Preposition, Prepositional Phrase; circumstantial clause; types of sentences by structure and meanings; determination of subject and predicate and so on.
Without knowing syntax how can we comprehend a text?Fear is not restricted to distribution of inheritance it is about treating the father-orphans children equally as those children whose fathers are alive.
In article on MMA I have not given analysis of 403. Kindly see here and then we can discuss if any point is lacking there.
Syntactic analysis of Ayah 403
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Where did I say there is stupidity in the Qur'an? I know there are verses in the Qur'an that are not applied today by most Muslims because they have a historical and regional/cultural character. Are you arguing otherwise? I can give you examples.
Peace Recluse
I never play the game I am right and you are wrong. I always approach Quran for the guidance. I found lots of nonsense and stupidity in traditional translations and tafseers, So I decided to find out the truth by learning the Quranic Arabic.
I am learning new things with the passage of time. Anyone approaching Quran for guidance can get it as per one's capacity. You may have a different interpretation of a verse than me and both of us are responsible for our interpretation. We can discuss but cannot enforce our interpretations on others.
2256
There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong....
So if we try and discuss with others things start becoming clear as per above verse.
If you give an example from Quran which is not applicable today we can discuss it and I can give my understanding which may or may not be liked by you. I am just a student and trying to clarify truth for myself. Academic discussions are a good way of doing it without any offence.So please discuss what is not applicable from Quran today and I might learn something new.
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I have issues regarding this verse. What is your opinion regarding the below verse?
242 The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their torture.
The translators usually chooses the word 'punishment' as a translation for the Arabic word ?Azabahuma? which is a big error. The exact meaning of the word azabahuma is ?the torture of both of them?. Well, that doesn't sound much of a merciful God. Apparently both the public humiliation and real physical pain especially, to the person, is collectively being torture for that person. And Allah does not only sanction torture and that too for public view, but He is also concerned that the human feeling of the people who implement His orders might succumb to their feelings, hence they are warned against it, by mentioning the Last Day (do not be taken by pity for them in the system of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day).
Please give your input regarding the above verse.
Peace.
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Peace Hizbullah, Mazhar
While I agree that 4/3 and 4/127 comprise a context, I am not sure about an orphan being a woman.
wa-in khif'tum all tuq'si f l-yatm
And if you fear that not you will be able to do justice with the orphans,
fa-inki m ba lakum mina l-nisi
then marry what seems suitable to you from the women
mathn wathultha waruba fa-in khif'tum all
two, or three, or four But if you fear that not
tadil fawidatan aw m malakat
you can do justice then (marry) one or what possesses
aymnukum dhlika adn all
your right hand. That (is) more appropriate that (may) not
tal wat l-nisa aduqtihinna ni'latan
you oppress And give the women their dower graciously
fa-in ib'na lakum an shayin min'hu nafsan
But if they remit to you of anything of it (on their) own,
fakulhu hanan maran
then eat it (in) satisfaction (and) ease.
If you fear that you cannot do right by orphan girls (taking advantage of them),
then marry women two, three, or four (in righteous) but if you can't be just with
multiple wives then marry one or a slave, that would be better for you that you
not oppress. Give the women their dowry kindly and if they remit to any part of the
dowry, take it with ease.May Allah guide us to the truth
peace
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mathn wathultha waruba
two, or three, or four
It's supposed to be two, and three, and four. Instead of 'and' you translated 'wa' as 'or'. That's an error you made.
And now the sentence looks funny. Marry two, and three, and four? How all the three numericals at once?Peace.
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Peace all, Peace Samira1234,
Upon what evidence do you base your assertion?
'Azab' clearly means 'torture'. How else would you translate it? A word like '3iqaab' can mean punishment. 'Azab' can mean something like torment, agony, or torture. Unless you have another translation.
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'Azab' clearly means 'torture'. How else would you translate it? A word like '3iqaab' can mean punishment. 'Azab' can mean something like torment, agony, or torture. Unless you have another translation.
Peace Samira1234
Let me make it clear that I am not a scholar but just a student who is trying to understand Quran without using other's glasses. The purpose of discussion is to gain better understanding of Quran and not to defeat anyone.To understand AZAB lets reflect on following verses in Quran
25 Word "Muflihoon" is used for those who attain certain attributes given at 22 to 24
Falahun is a farmer and muflihoon are those who are rewarded for their hard work with good
crops and yields27 Word "AZAB" is used for those who are in opposition to "believers"
Please reflect on Muflihoon and Azab in these verses. Both words have been used in comparison to eachother.
Does AZAB means torture or deprivation of the pleasant things?
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I have issues regarding this verse. What is your opinion regarding the below verse?
242 The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their torture.
The translators usually chooses the word 'punishment' as a translation for the Arabic word ?Azabahuma? which is a big error. The exact meaning of the word azabahuma is ?the torture of both of them?. Well, that doesn't sound much of a merciful God. Apparently both the public humiliation and real physical pain especially, to the person, is collectively being torture for that person. And Allah does not only sanction torture and that too for public view, but He is also concerned that the human feeling of the people who implement His orders might succumb to their feelings, hence they are warned against it, by mentioning the Last Day (do not be taken by pity for them in the system of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day).
Please give your input regarding the above verse.
Peace.
Peace Samira1234
What is your opinion about word ZANI as discussed in following thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605270.msg325693#msg325693 -
It's supposed to be two, and three, and four. Instead of 'and' you translated 'wa' as 'or'. That's an error you made.
And now the sentence looks funny. Marry two, and three, and four? How all the three numericals at once?Peace.
Peace Samira1234
Thank you, I agree that your translation makes no sense, could it be that "or" is grammatically correct?
God bless you
peace