Do you take the Qur'an literally?
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Hello hawk99,
Yes, so we shouldn't confuse the two, or add an extra 'alif' where it was not there. We shouldn't try to force our grammatical ideas where it is not possible. Unless someone has a better interpretation.
Peace.
Peace Samira1234
I do not understand the above, please give your translation of 4/3.
God bless
peace
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Hello hawk99,
I didn't change much in the interpretation of 43, just used the word 'and' for 'wa' in place of the commonly used translation of it, which is 'or'.
43 And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphans, then marry those that please you of women, two and three and four...
The sentence is incredibly confusing. How can a person marry two AND three AND four? That's a clear error. Unless someone can explain to me why it is not.
Besides, why is fear of injustice towards orphans followed by marrying women that pleases him, in multiple numbers? That's a strange concept, which has led to various interpretations for it and created more injustice in the society due to confusion, and which has led to reformer Muslims like Edip saying the women are widows whom to marry, which is most likely an invention, since he also did an interpretation change for verse 4127, where he translated 'Yataman Nisaa' as 'orphans' mothers'. Some others see 'Yataman Nisaa' as 'orphan women' or 'orphans' women'. I am not sure personally.
Peace.
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Peace Samira1234
Let me make it clear that I am not a scholar but just a student who is trying to understand Quran without using other's glasses. The purpose of discussion is to gain better understanding of Quran and not to defeat anyone.To understand AZAB lets reflect on following verses in Quran
25 Word "Muflihoon" is used for those who attain certain attributes given at 22 to 24
Falahun is a farmer and muflihoon are those who are rewarded for their hard work with good
crops and yields27 Word "AZAB" is used for those who are in opposition to "believers"
Please reflect on Muflihoon and Azab in these verses. Both words have been used in comparison to eachother.
Does AZAB means torture or deprivation of the pleasant things?
I am kind of confused. Arabic is a difficult language to follow up on. The same word in a different context can apparently means a more different meaning.
I want you to look up on the word 'Azabahuma', whose meaning seems to be ?the torture of both of them?, in the context of 242. This exact word in a context. And if a different interpretation is used, then I want to see how this word can be translated that way.
Peace.
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Hello Novice,
Peace Samira1234
What is your opinion about word ZANI as discussed in following thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605270.msg325693#msg325693This seems to require more study. Some conflicting ideas have been proposed in the thread, as follows
Salaam
arabic is a very strange language.zina have meaning of decoration. defaming is a false decoration of reality.
Quran forbid showing forouj to other than spouses and malakat aymanoukom (70-29 and 70-30) but ask to show zina to many (24-31) and to take our zina to masjid
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple (TAKE YOUR ZINA), and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.Peace
Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur'aan
a) Total occurrences 24
b) No of constructions 8
(ش . .The basic perception infolded in the Root is that of indulging in excessive, immoderate, or beyond measure with reference to generally or universally accepted norms, limits and measures of behaviour. The perception and meanings of the Root have built in subjective and relational element. Moreover, since the excessive, immoderate and extremist tendencies are universally looked upon with dislike, abomination, repulsiveness, and unacceptability, therefore, it has inherent negative element. For reason of built in subjective and relational element, it is the context and related field which will determine and expose its meanings with reference to that context and in definite state generally about the irrational, unnatural, obscene, pervert and excessively emotional sexual conduct.
There is no active participle and passive participle in it. On the contrary Zina (ا is for illegal intercourse; premarital or extramarital.
is a Verbal Noun signifying an act only. It denotes the act of intercourse and a state where the male genitalia intercourses with female genitalia. It does not refer to the doer of act as to who are they who are performing intercourse.
The woman performing in the act of intercourse is Active Participle
and the man performing in the act of intercourse is also Active Participle .This act of intercourse is certainly but any thing regarded as is not Zina. All ilicit sexual activities minus Zina are . Similarly rape is not Zina, whether done by a man or by a woman or women with a man, since Zina is only with mutual consent.
A couple days back one commentator changed the phrase interpretation of 'Ya AAibadiya' from 'O my servants' to 'O my allegiants'. This gets confusing to me, especially since I do not have that strong hold of knowledge in Arabic. So I am not sure regarding them.
Peace.
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Only with one condition can this be a truly fulfilling and satisfying alternate lifestyle
=> This simply isn't true. I agree for most of us what you say would be the only valid terms for it, but you are ignoring there are people out there who are an exception to your rule and perfectly happy with it.
Yeah there are exceptions. I have been also watching documentaries on polyandry, practiced such as in South India and Tibet, where the men in several families seem to be perfectly alright sharing their wife among two or three or more men in a polyandrous setting. The reasons for them there are
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By not allowing land to be split between brothers, the families retained farms sufficiently large to continue supporting their family. A compelling socio-biological justification for polyandry is that it makes good genetic sense for brothers to raise one another's children since a brother possesses the next closest gene pool to their own.
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The mountainous terrain makes some of the farm land difficult to farm, requiring more physical strength. Women take multiple husbands because they are strong and able to help tend the land.
So mainly in the rural areas polyandry is literally important for their survival. So that is why I had mentioned earlier, either no polygamy at all or polygamy for both the genders being equally legalized. Both genders have just as much substantial evidence for why their side of case should be approved for. It makes no sense, from a real world perspective, to legalize polygamy for only one gender for religious-based reasons, that too giving one-sided real-world reasoning to justify it, since that would only create distress and suffering in a society, since the collective possible reasoning and real-world cases is not looked at and compared with, and the reasons for the other gender to choose polygamy is thwarted aside, simply on basis of 'because God said so'.
Peace.
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Harmony be with you Samira,
The ambiguity is due to errors in what the passages really say. Arabic is not strange, only the fools who have tried to interpret it and derived lots of strange practices and guesswork from it. Despite being a foreigner to the language I am fascinated by its simplicity due to that roots have only three letters and they are all based on a morpheme level meaning. It is a quite primitive but also very logical due to its precision and meanings derived straight out of the very letters.
Have faith
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Peace,
Words don't have different meanings in different contexts. A clear, consistent text requires clear, consistent language. Context does not change meanings, it simply shows what a consistent meaning should be applied to.
Imraan
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Oh we have found that meaning, don't worry, cut I doubt that it does interest you. You seem to catch up to any straw to just disqualify anythign that is answered to you and instead speak at interpretation acrobatics, but reject that what you have been fed, or you say so, about the Qur'an may have been indeed interpretation acrobatics. A problem you will not have with the West which they have rally been saints all along.
I know I may have been coming across as biased against the Quran. Which I am, actually. My biasness is mainly against how the vast majority of Muslims seem to be interpreting the Quran. There are simply too many ways apparently in which one can choose to interpret the Quran, or even a letter within a word to change the course of the entire meaning. I have a feeling the majority of the people's way of interpreting is wrong on several levels, but many of them are stuck since they simply haven't seen something better, and simpler, which is verifiable. I am going with the notion currently that the Quran have indeed been divinely inspired, at least to an extent, at some point in history. If I find out later it wasn't, well, that's another story, for the later time being.
I am curious how you would see this verse for example, which appear misogynous. This is one of the examples regarding, frankly, my anger towards the traditional interpretations the Quran
314 Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire - of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.
The word 'Nas' is translated normally as 'mankind' or 'people'. And that in PEOPLE itself they have been given the desire of WOMEN. I thought women were supposed to be part of people? Hence we are being regarded as not even people in this case, but like cattle, or as property, for men who are the real people. That's objectification in yo' face gurl. You said earlier that it is the people's fault for misinterpreting the Quran and creating problems in the world. Looks like the Quran in several places actually approves of their actions as well to an extent. It even looks like many people's messed-up attitude is a direct result from reading the scriptures.
Some embarrassed translators translated 'Nas' as 'men', which is wrong.
Peace.
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Speaking about polyandry and men being happy with it, of course they are. The use rostitutes all the time without the slightest dislike. What they do not want is responsibility or acknowledgement, but sharing women, oh yes, they are quite happy with it, those who do, of course. Obvioysly not all men are that type, Thank God.
Salaam
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Speaking about polyandry and men being happy with it, of course they are. The use rostitutes all the time without the slightest dislike. What they do not want is responsibility or acknowledgement, but sharing women, oh yes, they are quite happy with it, those who do, of course. Obvioysly not all men are that type, Thank God.
Salaam
I already gave the reasons why the people in those areas in general would approve of polyandry. They struggle with their livelihood. And no, their societies are not run on patriarchy, hence they don't have the same level of thinking as you provided here. I suggest you watch on YouTube polyandrous families in South India and Tibet. One woman having two husbands even said that they were so content as a family that their happiness and contentment would be there simply by sitting together with their children in the same room, even if they were living without food for days at a time. Their husbands also supported their decision of having a polyandrous household. And this is just one example.
Peace.
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I know of those marriages from very long ago, nd though they have very good press, in real life is not that rosy, but that is the way the solve their questions. Frequently they are brothers.
And now, in India, thanks to the selective abortion of female fetuses it seems that in some areas, since not all non aborted male fetuses can find a wife, because the potential ones were aborted, they resort to getting one of the brothers married and then, without the woman being aware, the other brothers join in. Cosy, yes, indeed.
As to the de facto poliandry that prostitution is I didnot mean to spoil the rosy picture of those lovely polyandrous marriages here or there, but to point out that it is not at polindry that some people cringe, but to any conditions that might entail an empowerment of women similar to the overempowerment of males that has raged for many centuries and up to the present. No, nothing against poliandry, only against males not holding the reins of it. If they hold the reins everything is fine. And it is plin that thye hold the reins in prostitution, so no way it is going to be done away with in any near future. Nothing unnatural in poliandry if it is in the form of prostitution for that kind of mentality.
Again, just in case anybody feels slighted, I am talking exclusively about "that kind of men". Thank God again, there are decent men and unsassuming and kind men around, may God bless them. I do nto know how many, but there are.
Salaam
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Hello huruf,
I know of those marriages from very long ago, nd though they have very good press, in real life is not that rosy, but that is the way the solve their questions. Frequently they are brothers.
And now, in India, thanks to the selective abortion of female fetuses it seems that in some areas, since not all non aborted male fetuses can find a wife, because the potential ones were aborted, they resort to getting one of the brothers married and then, without the woman being aware, the other brothers join in. Cosy, yes, indeed.
Yeah, life is not that rosy obviously. But in some ways several of the women in the families are more empowered than several other communities' women. The men's main job is to earn the money, do the hard labour and protect their families. The women control the flow of finances and their consultation is important for almost all of the daily decision-making.
And yeah I did hear the stories of women being passed around due to lack of females in an Indian community. But then the women usually know what would happen to them. Otherwise if they don't, that is obviously abuse and criminal to the women, and another level of misogyny done where the men benefit through deceit.
As to the de facto poliandry that prostitution is I didnot mean to spoil the rosy picture of those lovely polyandrous marriages here or there, but to point out that it is not at polindry that some people cringe, but to any conditions that might entail an empowerment of women similar to the overempowerment of males that has raged for many centuries and up to the present. No, nothing against poliandry, only against males not holding the reins of it. If they hold the reins everything is fine. And it is plin that thye hold the reins in prostitution, so no way it is going to be done away with in any near future. Nothing unnatural in poliandry if it is in the form of prostitution for that kind of mentality.
I understand the fears, I have them too. Many males do have a tendency to try to turn many things in their direction. One of my fears is that if there are more women than men, for some men at least, they may try to turn that into a reason for having multiple women each. If there are more men than women, such type of men may try to turn that into a reason for passing around women between them.
I have been chatting with some women in polygamy situations in this blog, and the founder of the blog, Fiona, is a non-Muslim woman living polyandry with two husbands. Her first husband, who is a Muslim, cheated on her by taking another wife behind her back and telling her that a couple months AFTER contracting the marriage. She went through hell after knowing that, and some painful events followed. Later on during this half-single time she met another man, and got secretly married to him in almost exactly the same way. Her first husband also went through hell after that, despite doing the exact same thing to her in the first place. Now a couple years later, her first husband divorced his second wife, and they are all officially living in polyandry
https//polygamy911.wordpress.com/my-story/
Fiona is one of the rare honest women I had encountered in my life, both online and offline included. She has quite a great level of integrity and sincerity about her, and is very intelligent and well-read too. I don't agree with several things about her, and had some heavy disagreements too, but in a lot of ways agree with her as well. She shot up my self-worth in a number of ways, helped me deal with some of my fears, become more expressive, and caused me to question things regarding Islam and in a way come to Quranism from Sunni Islam earlier. And now questioning things within the Quran as well. In a way that makes sense at least. Do check out her blog. You may not agree with her in several areas, but you would still get nuggets of gold every once in a while. I commented there using the name 'Mariam'.
Peace.
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Hi,
I've come to the conclusion that the Qur'an as a whole cannot be taken literally, this would simply be impossible and irrational.
Anyone who reads the Qur'an carefully will clearly see that there are plenty of verses that were only relevant to the conditions of the Arabs of Arabia at the time. There is actually no person on earth, no country on earth, and no organization on earth that follows the entire Qur'an literally. Even those who think they do. But if you tell any Muslim that there are verses that are NOT universal or verses that should NOT be taken LITERALLY they go berserk...
The Qur'an is not an encyclopedia, not "everything" can be find in the Qur'an. And it's not a book of law or economics or anything similar that we could easily apply in our life. The Qur'an was one of God's "interventions" in human history in a particular region in a particular time in history. Sure, there are beautiful universal messages as well, but to believe that the entire Qur'an can be taken literally and applied at any time in any region on earth is insanity. We can and should only be inspired by the Qur'an...
Your thoughts? What does the "Qur'an" mean to you?
37
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.I love this website, it is SO fascinating for me to see these people who have the Qur'an in their hands but say all kinds of things about it haha. Thank you for your post!
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I am curious how you would see this verse for example, which appear misogynous. This is one of the examples regarding, frankly, my anger towards the traditional interpretations the Quran
314 Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire - of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.
The word 'Nas' is translated normally as 'mankind' or 'people'. And that in PEOPLE itself they have been given the desire of WOMEN. I thought women were supposed to be part of people? Hence we are being regarded as not even people in this case, but like cattle, or as property, for men who are the real people. That's objectification in yo' face gurl. You said earlier that it is the people's fault for misinterpreting the Quran and creating problems in the world. Looks like the Quran in several places actually approves of their actions as well to an extent. It even looks like many people's messed-up attitude is a direct result from reading the scriptures.
Some embarrassed translators translated 'Nas' as 'men', which is wrong.
Peace.
Peace Samira1234
Allow me to explain how I understand verse 314
The word
is a passive perfect verb (http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=14)
It means "beautified/decorated/made attractive". As we know the actor in a passive verb is not declared so who has done it God or society/culture.Now start with verse 313 It is talking about two groups at war. One is in the way of God and other is Kuffar.
Verse 314 says that certain things have been made attractive/desirable for people. So the warring groups were desiring to have these things as a reward of fight. But what is with God is better than these.
Verse 315 says to the people fighting in the way of God that these are wordly things and there are better rewards for you in the later life.
So when I see these three verses together they make sense to me. Hope it helps.
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The word
is a passive perfect verb (http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=14)
It means "beautified/decorated/made attractive". As we know the actor in a passive verb is not declared so who has done it God or society/culture.A Passive verb has a Proxy subject/ergative, it is alwayas in nominative case; third word is its proxy subject. Please see the syntactic graph of 314 at quoted corpus.
The love of sensual excitements felt for some of the women has become alluring for people;
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A Passive verb has a Proxy subject/ergative, it is alwayas in nominative case; third word is its proxy subject. Please see the syntactic graph of 314 at quoted corpus.
The love of sensual excitements felt for some of the women has become alluring for people;
Thanks Mazhar
My point was that who made it alluring for people. Is it God or society/culture because passive verb does not give the name of actor.
Peace
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Thanks Mazhar
My point was that who made it alluring for people. Is it God or society/culture because passive verb does not give the name of actor.
Peace
Passive voice is used when doer is not identified. In Arabic passive verb the object of active voice verb becomes the Proxy subject.
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Passive voice is used when doer is not identified. In Arabic passive verb the object of active voice verb becomes the Proxy subject.
So Mazhar when we say "kutila zaid" it means Zaid was killed. Zaid is the proxy subject but who killed him is not known.
Similarly "zuyyina linnas ...." mean beautified for people.... but who beautified them is not known. Generally it is understood that God has done it but text doesn't say who did it.
Peace
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I appologize for picking a slightly older post to respond. I felt this post was not adequately discussed...
One of the biggest problems I still have is why an atheist who dedicates his whole life to help other people would be thrown in Hell for eternity. That simply doesn't make sense to me whatsoever. But I believe that God is just and that this will not be the case. I know if instead of being born to Turkish parents, I was born in Mexico , I wouldn't have been a Muslim today. There is no question. So just because you were born in Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Pakistan does not and cannot guarantee you a free ticket to Paradise.
In life, we will be that to which we are destined. My parents arrived to the US from Mexico just a couple of months before my birth, and I was meant to be nothing more than a person who submits to the will of God, a Muslim. That was and is God's destiny. Praise be to God.
Salam Martha.
I invite you to carefully reinvestigate the terms Iman (faith) and Janna (belief), Mu'min (faithful) and Kafir (repressor).
You have probably got the idea that Qur'an says Allah will burn the unbelievers in hell - which you are finding difficult to understand. I believe if you study diligently you will soon come to the conviction that this is a misconception based on faulty translations. Qur'an does not say this. Neither Arabic root meaning, nor Quranic theorlogy supports the word "kafir" to mean "unbeliever" - rather kafir is somone who represses or suppresses his "faith".
26 Indeed those who repress - it is same for them whether you warn them or don?t warn them, they won?t have faith.
27 Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing and on their vision a veil ? and for them - a great suffering.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
But, then again, isn't "faith" (Iman) same as "believing" (Janna)? NOT EXACTLY. Faith is acknowledgement of our relationship with our Creator - that as our solemn "gratitude" towards the One who gave us the life we have an inviolable responsibility to live a responsible life based on the sense of right and wrong He instilled in us. Although I am using the word "He" and "One" it is possible to acknowledge and accept the same relationship without assigning a "Personification" to God. That is exactly what many in the Buddhist and Atheist camp do.
If you ask "an atheist who dedicates his whole life to help other people" why he or she helps others or strives to be a good person - the atheist would probably answer - I do not do this to please any deity, rather I do this for my own satisfaction - I do this because doing this (i.e. being good and helpful) makes me feel complete - it helps me look into the mirror with my head held high. (Helping others not to please any dety, but for the sake of goodness itself - is in other words helping others seeking the face of Allah - as suggested by Qur'an. Because Allah is the ultimate source of Goodness - Allah is NOT a deity.)
In other words what they really mean is that "goodness" is a natural instinct built into them. They surrender to this natural instinct. This surrender to ones God gifted instinct is already what is true "submission / islam"; this is already a mark of their "faith" or Iman. Of course, believing in a "personfied" God is more in line with the teaching of the messengers and holy scriptures (including Qur'an), as it is easier for most people to conceptualize God in that way - but mere "belief" in a "personfied" God is by no way a mandatory crieteria for being a Mu'min or faithful. It is theoretically possible for one to be atheist and Mu'min (faithful) and muslim at the same time. There are even Qur'anic examples of such people.
On the otherhand kafir who are condemned to eternal hell are people who (nomatter which religious camp they belong) are ungrateful towards the universal force which created and sustains them - and thereby represses their faith - forces their own soul to believe they have no obligation to act responsibly and morally. Kafir from the atheist camp believe they have no moral responsibility because there is no "God" and the kafir in the religious camp believe they have no moral responsibility as long as they can please their respective "deity" through worship and blind acceptance of customs and practices preached by the clergy of their religion. Thus "believing" (Janna) can act like a two way sword - when a faithful (mumin) believes in Allah, it is likely to elevate him to the status of a Muttaqui (Conscious), but when a kafir believes in Allah often he ends up believing in a deity (tagoot) by the name Allah and associate their clergy and scholars as partner to Allah to define rules and regulations superceding their God-gifted sense of right and wrong.
Just like a mu'min can belong to a religious or a secular club, a kafir can belong to a religious or a secular club. The differentiating crieteion between a mu'min and a kafir is their faith (acceptance of their obligation to live responsibly), not their belief.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Iblis did not show respect to Adam for silly reasons in which he may have thought an injustice was being done to allow something he might have considered inferior to rule over the planet. This was an example of how people in their reasoning can end up disobeying Allah who knows what you do not know, and creates all the scenarios and situations. So I don't like when people say "Allah would never do an injustice" as if they would disbelieve or fight Allah if Allah did something they did not like or perceive as right or just. What more of a "test" or a "proving" can there be of who surrenders to Allah and who is made a rebel? I hope never to fall for such tricks, and instead I worship the Lord of Evil, Master of Good, who creates whatever and does whatever and is not bound to anything, not bound to justice, not bound to law, all these things are creations of Allah which all can do whatever Allah wants to do with them, and we can't help it or fight it, and that is surrender in my opinion. Even in hating Allah passionately and what Allah may do, we know that we can not fight Allah or win against Allah and try our best to get good from Allah rather than bad (and know that even that desire is from Allah, and the ability to achieve it or the failure to achieve it is all from Allah).
So I find that it is good if the beliefs of people are shaken, and that one sees who it is to fear, and not feel so safe or comfortable before the True Sovereign, but shudder and quake at the power of Almighty Allah, who can destroy you and torture you for no reason or make up any number of reasons and make you guilty and make your mouth even testify against you. One should not fear anything but Allah who creates all fear and frightening things and is the source of all harm and all pleasure.