The Quran objectifies women
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Fair in the eyes of people is the love for the appetite after women, sons...
Since the verse starts with 'Zuyyina linnasi...' it's supposed to be 'It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons...'
Make up your mind, either sons are males or they are females, because if the women are being objectified so are the sons, and they according to you are not women.
Huruf you are not getting my point. Since the verse is talking on mankind, it's supposed to mean in general on both men and women, and what has been adorned for them both. In this verse it talks on having sons, which is having male children as offspring, which has been put as part of wanting to have as 'people' itself. This is not objectification, this is more of a patriarchal mindset where for children the males are desired more than females, and apparently this patriarchal mindset is 'natural' for people as well since God adorned it for people.
Your pretented need to understand is obviously not at a pace with the attempts to find the good meaning of the text. You exactly want to find the worst possible interpretation.
I already said I put aside my rose-coloured lens which I had on for my whole life. And yes, I am indeed scrutinizing the text of the Quran to see whether it is in par with reality or not. Just looking for the good won't serve that purpose. Every religion needs to contain good otherwise people won't come and follow it. I am looking for things apart from the good as well to see how the overall content validates it as a scripture.
Well keep at it. You will find it. The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and the shit as well.
Looks like you are getting irked already. In that case I would suggest you to stay out of commenting on my posts. I am not here to try to please other believers who do not have a truth-seeking outlook in them. Every religion seems to be okay with their own absurdities but are not the same with other religions and scrutinize other religions for what they are. Even many Quranists are okay scrutinizing Hadith for what they are and calling them out on it, but are blind to the Quran instead. So yeah, if my posts annoy you, stay away from them please instead of trying to name-call or something.
My be you should put a complaint with the animal liberation front, because in that aya not only women and sons are objectified, which would be acceotable, but horses and cattle too are objectified. That should be unacceptable by any standard. The animal liberation front, yes, find help against the Qur'an there.
So you are putting women in the same category as animal liberation front apparently. Which isn't that strange, since I don't know which 'people' are being targeted here. The verse should have been clearer that 'It has been adorned for MEN to love the desire of women...', where the word 'rijaal' or something is used in place of 'naas'.
That is it is preciesely to consider women or sons as objects of luxury or signs of success or power what is being deprecated, not an honest love and tenderness for a beloved or for a child, but , and so on and so forth for the horses and the cattle and the other signs of worldly goods.
Maybe living in a patriarchal society that is what you are used to, where women are considered as objects of luxury or signs of success or power, but in other parts of the country such as Scandinavian countries where several of the countries are feminist, the women won't have the same vision as you and would actually take offense at being considered as such. Either call both men and women as objects of luxury for each other or not call either one of them at all. This verse is one of the sure signs how patriarchy is tolerated all the more since God 'adorned' it for PEOPLE to love the desire of women and having sons.
Peace.
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I see what you mean about this verse to seemingly objectify women but do you not also agree that women can also desire women? People is not defined to be men. It can incorporate either gender.
Ummm, I was expecting that. People consider attractive people as desirable, whether they are male or female. And no, I don't think there are more number of lesbians in the world apparently because women are considered better looking than men. Being lesbian or gay is not exactly dependent at the attractiveness of their own gender. Many women consider other women as attractive and may even stare at them, but that doesn't mean they also 'desire' those women, in a way worth actively mentioning about.
In any case, the REAL MAIN MESSAGE of that ayah (what we are supposed to take away and learn from this) is that all physical things we experience is only the enjoyment of the life of the world, but with Allah (following His Guidance) is better than what we all experience in the life of the world.
Yeah, in that case the Creator who is the author apparently should have been more careful on the wording of the verses. People can easily justify unwanted patriarchy using such a verse, and say desiring women in an objectified way and wanting males for offspring is perfectly natural since it is the Creator who has adorned for them as such, as adornment for this world. So if we women feel hurt by such desires it's not the men's fault, since they are acting precisely from their 'naturally adorned' desires.
Peace.
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Hello Hizbullah,
So when ALLAH says that, HE means men of the HUMAN RACE. The verse does not include the JINN RACE.
Um, the word 'Nas' is used. I don't think the word 'Nas' means 'men of the human race'. Is that how you translate the word 'Nas'? I thought "Nas' was 'mankind' or 'people' from both genders or either gender?
And proclaim to the PEOPLE the Hajj ; they will come to you MEN and on every means of transportation; they will come from every distant pass -
All translation to the above verse says "RIJALAN' means walking. If the verse meant for MANKIND including women than there is of no use including the word "RIJALAN". It is how you put it in context.
Are you translating 'Rijalan' in a different way, as in 'walking'? So you are saying 'Rijalan' has a different meaning for each context? Like the word 'daraba'? I didn't know that. Please clarify more for me. Thanks.
Peace.
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Hello and Salam Samira1234
I thought "Nas' was 'mankind' or 'people' from both genders or either gender?
Yes, exactly what i meant. Both genders. We all - men and women are NAS - MANKIND / HUMAN BEING / HUMAN RACE. So when ALLAH means in this context, HE is referring to the men only of the HUMAN RACE / HUMAN BEING / MANKIND.
Are you translating 'Rijalan' in a different way, as in 'walking'?
I am translating "Rijalan" as men . From what I know all the Quranic translation on 2227, we have now, translated "Rijalan" as walking which is wrong. The word Nas as in 2227 shows that the annunciation is to the HUMAN race only - both men and women. At the same time, the command is to men ONLY and that they WILL come - , on every mode of transportation for the Hajj ritual.
So you are saying 'Rijalan' has a different meaning for each context? Like the word 'daraba'? I didn't know that. Please clarify more for me.
Peace.Yes, exactly, the Quran 02239
And if you fear (an enemy than perform Salah) on foot or riding. And when you are in safety, then remember Allah (pray) in the manner He has taught you, which you knew not (before).
The word "Rijalan" in verse 239, means walking. In actual fact, it should be spell as - and not
Peace
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Harmony with you Samira,
As usual I must disagree with the supplied translation. It speaks of spiritual people from the families and children.
Quran does not speak of women specifically as much as tradition wishes to imply. It is fairly gender neutral. Genders are not that important since we have genders in this fleshly world but once we attain spirit forms/ethereal forms then this will matter little.
The purpose for us in this world is not to indulge too much in the flesh but rather separate us from it to gain spirituality. If a traditional interpretation of Quran speaks fleshly it is a bad translation.
Have fajth
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Hello Hisbullah,
So when ALLAH means in this context, HE is referring to the men only of the HUMAN RACE / HUMAN BEING / MANKIND.
How do you know this? So that verse is not for us females to read? And what's with the love of sons as offspring? That makes no sense at all. Giving reasoning for why sons are preferred as offspring would only end up hurting us females deeply, especially verses which are supposed to have a universal message. I for one would not let my daughter in the future to read such verses. Just saying.
I am translating "Rijalan" as men . From what I know all the Quranic translation on 2227, we have now, translated "Rijalan" as walking which is wrong. The word Nas as in 2227 shows that the annunciation is to the HUMAN race only - both men and women. At the same time, the command is to men ONLY and that they WILL come - , on every mode of transportation for the Hajj ritual.
Yeah obviously if 'Rijalan' is quoted it would mean plural men. So there not need to be confusion in that verse. 314 is in a same way quite clear to me as well. There is no 'Rijalan' quoted there. The word used is 'Nas'. So saying Allah meant the men in that verse only when the word 'Nas' is used, I don't quite see the sentence logic behind it, except to try to play, um, interpretation acrobatics, because of quite obvious reasons. Perhaps someone could try quoting another ayah to illustrate an example of when 'Nas' is written, it is specifying one gender only.
The word "Rijalan" in verse 239, means walking. In actual fact, it should be spell as - and not
What do you mean? The Quran says what it says, there is no actual fact of how it should be written. Unless you are saying there is a clear grammatical error there? I need honesty, and lack of biasness, please.
Also if a book is going to be called the best written book in the world, with the best linguistic example out there, with excellence in terms of grammar, language and logic, people need to be a hundred times more careful at least regarding the linguistics of that book. Because since it is supposed to be one of the best books, if we take grammatical or language teachings from such a book, we should be able to apply the examples of it in, for example, a linguistics exam in Classical Arabic. I am just saying. I hope I am not being offensive or anything, so forgive me for that.
Peace.
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Peace Samira1234
Allow me to explain how I understand verse 314
The word
is a passive perfect verb (http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=14)
It means "beautified/decorated/made attractive". As we know the actor in a passive verb is not declared so who has done it God or society/culture.Now start with verse 313 It is talking about two groups at war. One is in the way of God and other is Kuffar.
Verse 314 says that certain things have been made attractive/desirable for people. So the warring groups were desiring to have these things as a reward of fight. But what is with God is better than these.
Verse 315 says to the people fighting in the way of God that these are wordly things and there are better rewards for you in the later life.
So when I see these three verses together they make sense to me. Hope it helps.
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Hello Man of Faith,
The purpose for us in this world is not to indulge too much in the flesh but rather separate us from it to gain spirituality. If a traditional interpretation of Quran speaks fleshly it is a bad translation.
Thank you for your comment. What you said makes a hundred times more sense than most other opinions. I for one am tired of rolling around in the mud with dozens of interpretations, none of which actually make satisfactory sense in a living world, and which causes me to hope that Muslims don't take over the governments in developed countries which other countries look up to and implement their Quranic rulings. I am very sorry for being direct in my speech and offensive sounding, if I am. I am just laying it out the way I see it, from my opinion only.
Many of the interpretations provided by most other people sound very 'fleshly'. One of the sayings of Jesus, a man I appreciate, is that as people we need to separate our spirit from our flesh, which is one of the prime importance given for us to enter the "narrow gate of heaven" (I get very scared of mentioning Jesus's name, or any of his examples, despite he being quoted in the Quran as well, in fear of people here saying out 'We knew she is a Christian in disguise!' or 'Why don't you embrace Christianity? You two would get along very well like a hand in a fitted glove' or something similar). I do appreciate several of Christian teachings and values (apart from the Son of God reference), such as those belonging to Jesus, but that also I am very careful to cherry-pick accordingly.
Anyway, I wish the interpretations provided for the Quran were less fleshly in their approach and more spiritual.
This is what I saw a non-Muslim women commenting regarding Islam in a blog. She was commenting earlier on how men are given lenience in having multiple partners at some occasions, while women are required to be absolutely faithful in all occasions. She was referring mainly to Islam as a whole with Quran and Hadith combined such as Sunni Islam, but also to Quranist Islam it could be applicable at certain areas
"Religious belief lives off consistency and claimed universality. My feeling is what is ?broken? about the Islamic faith is that it lacks the claimed universality in too many respects. Examples Of course polygamy as a break from a general frowning of promiscuity, only for men. Then the repeated break of a prohibition to kill (?who kills a man kills all of mankind?) for rather petty reasons (such as infringement of holy sites ? ?persecution is worse than slaughter? ? what could be worse than killing all of mankind?). Now this repeated pattern of breaking one?s own quasi-universal principles in my opinion creates uncertainty, and insecurity. From insecurity stems the often hysterical and excessive defence against all criticism from both inside and outside of the faith community. Faiths that have few, trully universal principles seem to be more grounded and secure in their faith, and less outlashing at people who do not share those views, even if those principles that are allegedly universal are of course broken over history. But then it is due to human fault, and that is always an easy excuse. Humans were just not good enough, and need to try harder to attain the universally agreed ideal state God demands."
Anyway, I appreciate everybody's replies, and am thankful for them. I learn from you guys which is a reason why I post. But I try to use my conscience and reasoning as well. I can be mistaken as well in several ways.
Peace.
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Hello Novice,
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it. What you say do make sense, to an extent.
Verse 314 says that certain things have been made attractive/desirable for people. So the warring groups were desiring to have these things as a reward of fight. But what is with God is better than these.
Verse 315 says to the people fighting in the way of God that these are wordly things and there are better rewards for you in the later life.314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.
Okay, in that case, why are sons and fields mentioned? Edip translated 'waalbaneena' as 'buildings' instead of 'sons'. Even then, how can one take buildings and fields as booty? And women?? So in the warriors desired to rape the female war captives too? I thought these people were supposed to be reformers of the society, and not wanting to do the same thing as 'jahilliyah' people.
And what is with this love for excessive booty? Is that being spiritual? Unless it is something like to cover their own losses during battle, that would make more sense. But also that needs to be in a carefully calculated amount only. Unless they have no way of returning the goods back to the enemy, then they could distribute those to the poor and needy people in their community, if required.
Peace.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Samira?s primary observation about this verse is how the ?love for Passion for women? can be said to be glorified for entire mankind? Doesn?t that imply women are merely objects of passion within mankind?
It does not. Look carefully ? it is not women who are glorified/beautified, it is ?(men?s) passion for women? which is glorified. ?(men?s) passion for women? is not something exclusively men enjoy, women also enjoy or take pride in the opposite gender?s passion for them. Men take sensual pleasure in indulging in being passionate for women and women take sensual pleasure in indulging in blind passion for them from men. Thus ?men?s passion for women? is glorified as a worldly pleasure for both men and women. Once we understand that men and women both indulge in ?(men?s) passion for women? ? we can see that the verse is not objectifying any specific gender, rather categorizing ?excessive/blind passion for / from the opposite gender? as a misleading shallow worldly pursuit.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Maybe living in a patriarchal society that is what you are used to, where women are considered as objects of luxury or signs of success or power, but in other parts of the country such as Scandinavian countries where several of the countries are feminist, the women won't have the same vision as you and would actually take offense at being considered as such. Either call both men and women as objects of luxury for each other or not call either one of them at all. This verse is one of the sure signs how patriarchy is tolerated all the more since God 'adorned' it for PEOPLE to love the desire of women and having sons.
Peace.
What are you talking about? You seem to play at posing as if you did not understand what is written. I cannot envisage that anybody can be that obtuse and be sincere at the same time.
Powerful or rich men pick women, beautiful and young women as a show of their power or wealth is not anything private to any parituclar country people nor to where "I live".
It is not said that those things are made to be beautiful for the males. It doe snot say that, it says that to the people are made to look fair the covetousness for those things. That is when powerful rich men get a new model wife people do not think that is something bad, it is admitted as mark of their position. in general. They are abundantly pictured in the press, just as much as they are pictured int heir beautiful homes, with the pets, their horses, their whatever.
AND THE QUR'AN WARNS against beautifying that glamour of the rich and powerful. You mke me laugh oretending to an ignornce of the glamour fact of the world at large,which delights in reading and watching about the rich and powerful.
And at the same time that you are SO INSULTING to people who trust the Qur'aan you pretend to be annoyed because others point out to you your lack of dependability and moving of posts and deliberatly ignoring what youa re answered , answering in your turn as if the person who answered you was saying all the times enormities. As er the Quraa'n that kind of behavoiur is that of a hyopocrite.
The expression of "a new model" referring to the new wife of some big shot
of a man is not an expression coined in my country nor in any muslim majority country but in the Holy West your so deeply love, and it depicts admirably what the aya is saying. Do you remember Sarkozy, the president of France marrying a new model, and in this case she was that, a model? Ws nto that made fair to people? That is what the Qur'aan say. Not the kind of idiocy you attempt to put in its discourse.I don't follow the pink press so I am out of the usual gossip, but I am sure there are plenty, many, many of those examples in the holy West at all the levels of power and greed.
As to sons, which again you put aside, and keep with the nonsense of objectifying women and what ?sons are not objectified too, according to your idiotic reading? aren't they also likened to horses and animals according to your filthy argumenting? But you keep harping on the subject of women because that is the pet weapon of the antimuslim and anti qur'aan propaganda of people who themselves are devoid of all moral values.
As to the animal liberation front... ?You are so cute! you make it seem as if you hadn't noticed it was pure sarcasm...
ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore?Come on! Your are overdoing your part of selfrighteous outrage.
In general you seem to deliberately appear as if you did not understand what you are told, but who cares?
At least you give raw material for honest searchers to get helpful answers. And that is what I try to do. I wouldn't waste efforts it was not the case that those honest searchers also may be reading the threads and they do deserve the best efforts of people. It is for the sake of those that I write, for whatever it is worth to them. That, also, is the ourpose of this forum. The ppeole who set it up, surely, did not intent it to be a place for Qur'an haters to have a field day.
If I were to give you an advice, try not to be so obvious. I even doubt that you have a country or even that you are of a particular sex.
Salaam to all honest searchers.
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What are you talking about? You seem to play at posing as if you did not understand what is written. I cannot envisage that anybody can be that obtuse and be sincere at the same time.
Powerful or rich men pick women, beautiful and young women as a show of their power or wealth is not anything private to any parituclar country people nor to where "I live".
It is not said that those things are made to be beautiful for the males. It doe snot say that, it says that to the people are made to look fair the covetousness for those things. That is when powerful rich men get a new model wife people do not think that is something bad, it is admitted as mark of their position. in general. They are abundantly pictured in the press, just as much as they are pictured int heir beautiful homes, with the pets, their horses, their whatever.
AND THE QUR'AN WARNS against beautifying that glamour of the rich and powerful. You mke me laugh oretending to an ignornce of the glamour fact of the world at large,which delights in reading and watching about the rich and powerful.
And at the same time that you are SO INSULTING to people who trust the Qur'aan you pretend to be annoyed because others point out to you your lack of dependability and moving of posts and deliberatly ignoring what youa re answered , answering in your turn as if the person who answered you was saying all the times enormities. As er the Quraa'n that kind of behavoiur is that of a hyopocrite.
The expression of "a new model" referring to the new wife of some big shot
of a man is not an expression coined in my country nor in any muslim majority country but in the Holy West your so deeply love, and it depicts admirably what the aya is saying. Do you remember Sarkozy, the president of France marrying a new model, and in this case she was that, a model? Ws nto that made fair to people? That is what the Qur'aan say. Not the kind of idiocy you attempt to put in its discourse.I don't follow the pink press so I am out of the usual gossip, but I am sure there are plenty, many, many of those examples in the holy West at all the levels of power and greed.
As to sons, which again you put aside, and keep with the nonsense of objectifying women and what ?sons are not objectified too, according to your idiotic reading? aren't they also likened to horses and animals according to your filthy argumenting? But you keep harping on the subject of women because that is the pet weapon of the antimuslim and anti qur'aan propaganda of people who themselves are devoid of all moral values.
As to the animal liberation front... ?You are so cute! you make it seem as if you hadn't noticed it was pure sarcasm...
ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore?Come on! Your are overdoing your part of selfrighteous outrage.
In general you seem to deliberately appear as if you did not understand what you are told, but who cares?
At least you give raw material for honest searchers to get helpful answers. And that is what I try to do. I wouldn't waste efforts it was not the case that those honest searchers also may be reading the threads and they do deserve the best efforts of people. It is for the sake of those that I write, for whatever it is worth to them. That, also, is the ourpose of this forum. The ppeole who set it up, surely, did not intent it to be a place for Qur'an haters to have a field day.
If I were to give you an advice, try not to be so obvious. I even doubt that you have a country or even that you are of a particular sex.
Salaam to all honest searchers.
Huruf, you were being unnecessarily rude and mean to me in your comment. I do not wish to respond to someone who would reply to me this way.
Peace.
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Powerful or rich men pick women, beautiful and young women as a show of their power or wealth is not anything private to any parituclar country people nor to where "I live".
Salam Huruf
That is exactly what I am trying to explain. Everything that you wrote make sense.
Verse 0314 is not a command but it is telling us the character of men.
You are really awesome. Thank you very much
Btw now we know who is the acrobat
ALLAH Bless you
Peace
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I think Samira is criticizing the interpretation of Quran and not the Quran itself. Please do not be so hard on her. She wants to hear additional opinions and arguments on the matter and to see if Quran actually says something that disturbs her. Insulting her would rather turn her away from Islam completely. People want coherence and rationality if they are wise and this is what Samira is looking for. She grew up with Islam and it is natural that she would criticize it if she ever came to her senses as the has now.
Would it not be for much good input and my own personal advancements in interpretation I would hardly have kept adherence to Quran.
Gladly it has begin to show that Quran is just a continuous elaboration on the teachings of Jesus about assimilation with God. Very fine elaboration actually. Quran helped me understand what Jesus said and meant by his various expressions hidden in the Biblical Gospels/Injeel. Particularly this mysterious expression "I am in the Father and the Father is in me". He spoke of plain assimilation with the spirit of God in a kind of symbiotic state. How it works is becoming quite clear. But it takes grand efforts from your own part as well. Begin to kill your ego with much focus on personal desires.
I would not abandon Quran, for it is a fine narration. Some wise and assimilated prophet wrote it.
Quran has expressions in famous Jesus manner and that is 'la Elah ila Allah', with the right grammar structure and not objective focus on God but rather symbiotic assimilation with the phenomenon of God.
Have faith
Salaam -
Hello Armanaziz,
Thank you for your comment. I appreciate different people's opinions.
Salamun Alaikum.
Samira?s primary observation about this verse is how the ?love for Passion for women? can be said to be glorified for entire mankind? Doesn?t that imply women are merely objects of passion within mankind?
It does not. Look carefully ? it is not women who are glorified/beautified, it is ?(men?s) passion for women? which is glorified. ?(men?s) passion for women? is not something exclusively men enjoy, women also enjoy or take pride in the opposite gender?s passion for them. Men take sensual pleasure in indulging in being passionate for women and women take sensual pleasure in indulging in blind passion for them from men. Thus ?men?s passion for women? is glorified as a worldly pleasure for both men and women. Once we understand that men and women both indulge in ?(men?s) passion for women? ? we can see that the verse is not objectifying any specific gender, rather categorizing ?excessive/blind passion for / from the opposite gender? as a misleading shallow worldly pursuit.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanSeeing the verse only, without the war context as Novice had put earlier
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.
The verse is talking on the desires that have been adorned for people in a one-sided way. Simply put, it is speaking on 'Naas' having beautified desires for women, sons, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, livestock, and fields. And that these desires are made enjoyment for this world. Although with God, there isn't something essentially wrong with enjoying these desires in this world, but in the Hereafter we would have even better enjoyment. In verses 316-20 is the description given for people, essentially those who can have a chance for the enjoyment in the Hereafter.
It would have been okay, if the verse talked on having desire for the opposite gender only. Most of us women appreciate and have our own "beautified desires" for men as well. But then this verse clearly mentioned "Naas' and "Nisaa". Not even "Rijaal" and "Nisaa". So it is not just mentioning on women being desirable for men, instead of also the other way around, but also it is talking on women being desirable for people. Which is why I had mentioned on this verse on women being objectified in this case.
The second desire is talking on sons. Which means having sons is a beautified desire for people. If it simply mentioned children, it could have made more sense, since most people, both men and women, do like having children or being with children, although many other people don't. That is not exactly objectification by itself, although still somewhat weird in my opinion, but then it is more clear where the beautified desire for children is coming from. But then mentioning sons singularly makes it look that people are patriarchal in general and hence having sons is a matter of "pride" over having daughters, or that their physical strength and role to provide makes them more of a valuable person. Many daughters also support their parents in old age, and are many a time more nurturing to parents than sons, so it makes no sense all the more.
If someone can try to understand my points, and perhaps try another shot at re-interpretation if possible, while being honest to the linguistics of the Quran, it would have been helpful. Otherwise people getting angry to see my criticism regarding the Quran, using ad hominem attacks, trying to subdue me or punish me in some way for speaking out would not be helpful.
Peace.
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By the way for everyone reading, please do not think I am criticising any of you personal characters or something. The very fact that you guys decided to question Hadith and follow more of Quran only, shows your sincerity and want, to follow the straight path. Also it is apparent that many of you guys are pretty hard working, spending hours to understand the Quran, and intelligent and good people in general.
When I criticise it is usually in the context of a particular topic. If I judged anybody's personal character or appeared to do so, please forgive me for it. I admit though my personal frustration can get hold of me at times and may cause me to speak in an unwanted way.
Peace.
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I think Samira is criticizing the interpretation of Quran and not the Quran itself. Please do not be so hard on her. She wants to hear additional opinions and arguments on the matter and to see if Quran actually says something that disturbs her. Insulting her would rather turn her away from Islam completely. People want coherence and rationality if they are wise and this is what Samira is looking for. She grew up with Islam and it is natural that she would criticize it if she ever came to her senses as the has now.
Would it not be for much good input and my own personal advancements in interpretation I would hardly have kept adherence to Quran.
Gladly it has begin to show that Quran is just a continuous elaboration on the teachings of Jesus about assimilation with God. Very fine elaboration actually. Quran helped me understand what Jesus said and meant by his various expressions hidden in the Biblical Gospels/Injeel. Particularly this mysterious expression "I am in the Father and the Father is in me". He spoke of plain assimilation with the spirit of God in a kind of symbiotic state. How it works is becoming quite clear. But it takes grand efforts from your own part as well. Begin to kill your ego with much focus on personal desires.
I would not abandon Quran, for it is a fine narration. Some wise and assimilated prophet wrote it.
Quran has expressions in famous Jesus manner and that is 'la Elah ila Allah', with the right grammar structure and not objective focus on God but rather symbiotic assimilation with the phenomenon of God.
Have faith
SalaamSamira keeps ignoring what does not pander to her own self-seeking view of what the Qur'an should say in order to fit the idea she wants to spread of wuat Qur'an is and what qur'an does. She ignores what does not help that and turns meek in order to continue doing what she is doing.
Insulting her? She is insulting us all the time. And say what I think she is doing and what I think of it is not insulting. It may no be pleasant but it is not insulting.
So you have your opinion and I have mine. And I have reasons to have it. She has managed to sell you on her muslim background and how much she has suiffered with that... Good I know something about muslim backgrounds and I do not believe that is the reason for what she is doing. I know some people, particularly women, who ignore ompletely de ur'an but that does not rpevent them from talking about it as if it was their blood right to distribute shit on the Qur'an without knowledge. It is very comfortable and sel-righteous to do that.
But this Samira, I doubt very much she wants to learn anything. She would have caught up at straws of little knowledge and been joyous about if it that was true. No, what she actually seems to enjoy is to play squid and hide. Shoot lots of ink to hide behind and moves posts.
So behave as you see fit yourself, I will do as much.
Salaam
Adn again
Huruf, you were being unnecessarily rude and mean to me in your comment. I do not wish to respond to someone who would reply to me this way.
Peace.
And you are being devious with all of us and insulting all of us and the Qura'an. Somebody told you already. Would you go into the bible forum and behave the way you are doing here? Or ahindu foruma nd do as much with their religious books.
Your ferocity is schoking? How do you dare throw at me that I don't accept that ferocity as a virtue? It is not a virtue. You are not asking questions or exposing problems, you calling names and giving as facts the most humilliating things for any believer. If you don't want to be talked in a certain way, do something not to deserve it. Tehere seems to be the widespread dogma that insutling islam and Qur'aan is perfectly alright, only islam and Qur'an, not the bible no the bagavad, not anything like that, just Qur'an and Islam. and of course if those who believe in islam and Qur'an feel autraged they should shut up or they are mean and bla, bla, bla...
Stand up to what you do and don't play de innocent, because what you write is not precisely innocence what gives away.
As to 3.53 I have answered several times very precisely but from the very beginning you do not take any notice of most things that do not fit your campaign of burying the Honourable Qur'an in filth. That does not worry me. The Qur'an is safe and you work against yourself, nobody else is the looser.
Salaam all
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Salam Huruf
That is exactly what I am trying to explain. Everything that you wrote make sense.
Verse 0314 is not a command but it is telling us the character of men.
You are really awesome. Thank you very much
Btw now we know who is the acrobat
ALLAH Bless you
Peace
Salaam, Hizbullah,
Thanks for the blessing and the understanding. I am glad that somebody is ppleased with what I wrote. Somehow I never had any trouble understanding that aya. As you say it depicts a trait of character of humans any time anywhere.
May God bless you too.
Salaam
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Peace Samira.
I can only speak for myself. You are doing more or less what I did years ago. Questioning all the injustice/nonsense/beliefs...that people are claiming to be in the word of GOD.
Please allow me to share with you the journey I started and continue on. After being frustrated by Christianity and traditional Islam and dismissing both I was leading my life as a family man with no particular religion ,just minding my own business of work and living in a society that was not religious or cared about any religion.
Let me first give you a background of my story to Qoran.
I had all sorts of mixed fortunes during my varied life up to my late forties. My interest in finding the truth started when I was working away from home. I used to commute( at weekends only) from Plymouth where I worked ,to Manchester where my family lived( some 300 miles). It was a difficult time as my family were established in Manchester and my children were happy and nearing the final years in their schools and they did not want to move location .It was during these travels, listening to the news and comments on radio stations that I started to be interested in "Islam" and Qoran. I wanted to know why does GOD want the " so called Muslims" to kill/hate/segregate...?
I decided to check Qoran for myself and see what it says. Anyway at first ,like you I had so many questions!!!! So many people trying to answer me only increased my confusion! So many translations that led me to more doubts How can this Qoran mean so many things to so many people?The challenge then for me became a personal issue Is this book really from GOD? I will study it , surely if it is not from GOD it will be full of nonsense ,contradictions and hocus pocus?
If I can share the following ,it may help or it may not
1-Qoran was/still is unlike any other book I have come across before. It was like a magnet and a puzzle. Every times I finished a session, I may get one answer but end up with more questions.
2-Everytime I asked for answers from "others" I became more confused.
3- My doubts were growing but my interest in Qoran was also growing. Strange!
4-I made many decisions to start again from the beginning. Ignore everything from before.
5-I decided to study other religions, to find everything about them and compare.
6-At last I can see why it is taking me so long, I also have to accept I will carry on and on. Why? Because I now have solid proof that Qoran is authored by GOD.
7- I also found that I cannot rush its explanations. GOD the Teacher of Qoran explains it according to what I can bear. Qoran is a living messenger. Once we decide that we truly want to know everything about it with sincerity, GOD does the rest.
8- The effort ,hard work .perseverance and trust in GOD have to all be there . A personal relationship with GOD needs to start to develop first. GOD has to bring out our true conviction.
9- It is a long journey, a trial of our intention and aims. Why do we want to know?10- GOD will let you know for sure. You may not have all the answers ,but when you attain certainty about GOD and HIS message, you have to accept the waiting and leave the matter to GOD.
11- One has the choice to go on this journey or not. There are no easy answers to get from others.Sorry for the long post.
May GOD help you on you journey and bless you.
Peace -
Hello FreedomStands,
Thank you for your reply.
Nothing of this sort is mentioned here. And no, we women in general don't desire sons singularly. That's a materialistic concept as well, extremely patriarchal and a further blow that daughters are not as desired.
Because you are male? Or you numbed your conscience in favour of "faith"? Just wondering.
So something extremely weird, out of ordinary, or a plain error in the Quran is supposed to strengthen my faith? That's a dogmatic idea, which is propagated by several scholars as well, that something unusual in the religion is actually supposed to "strengthen" our faith or may even be a "miracle". I guess it is a way to confuse and sugarcoat to the masses, while keeping them essentially silent on the absurdity.
Not in this way, dude. It looks like you are taking a colourful blindfold and happily tying it over your eyes, and trying to see rainbows with it. I am just saying like I see it, that's all. Forgive my words.
So apparently you want me to take the Sunni Islam platform that is taken by the majority of Sunni Muslim women, that is to keep the faith they need to accept injustice within the Hadith, even serious injustice against women at several levels, and that they will be rewarded in the Hereafter for it. I thought we Quranists have already termed this attitude as nonsensical and even mocked at their beliefs and mindset.
You welcome. I just thought of raising it to see what others have to say about it.
In other words you are bringing God-centered morality versus man-centered morality. I have thought about it a lot, and came to the conclusion that this type of mindset of bull, which is mainly fed by cultic type religious people. These people know the only real tools we have in this world is our conscience, reasoning, and using our five senses for observance of real-world evidence. So they try to numb these tools we have. Once they are numbed, the floor beneath our feet to distinguish between right and wrong is gone, or clouded over. Now the cultic type people can take over and essentially feed us their thought and sense of morality, since they know by now people are helpless in terms of sound thinking and following their heart in what is right.
Anyway, if God is truly an unjust God, who gives weird types of moral code that rests uneasily with our conscience, reasoning and real-world evidence, and we cannot use these three tools to figure out God's nature since "God-centered morality" is different from our "man-centered" one, and this God with His narcissism calls Himself "the most compassionate" and "the most merciful", why follow such a God in the first place? This God can throw the believers in Hell and send the unbelievers in Heaven as well! This God is untrustworthy, and we cannot judge Him in any way using the only real tools we have. Hence, it is pointless to even follow such a God. I am trying to speak from a clearer conscience and sound reasoning.
By the way I am a truth seeker at this point, to figure out the truth, whatever it may be. Thanks in advance for you guys' responses.
Peace,
Samira
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply so thoroughly! I think you may have misunderstood some of my statements and their intended meanings, since I was not suggesting some mystical acceptance, but rather that allowing ourselves to think badly of Allah and the Qur'an and go fully into those extremes can help to make us realize that the reason we worship Allah is because regardless of any evil Allah may do freely, Allah is the one who we can't defeat, that Allah is the word used here to refer to the Ultimate, and that it can do whatever it wants to do, say whatever it wants to say. All the information, good and bad, all our thoughts, good and bad, are all coming ultimately from Allah who creates all information.
So I wanted you to line up the "conditions". Are your conditions that if the Qur'an says something you don't like or that isn't fully accurate in your interpretation or opinion, that the whole book should be thrown out? I was genuinely asking because I'm very curious.
Yes, it is true, not all females love sons or men, not all males love females or find them attractive nor want sons, etc. Not every statement in the Qur'an is true in every conceivable or imaginable way we can interpret it. If God says he makes the "sunrise" it doesn't mean that God makes the "sun rise" necessarily, I mean that is the kind of nitpicking that might be going on here, which is totally fine, but why do you even really care? Is the Qur'an important to you?
Why not turn the Qur'an aside if you don't care for it, if you do care for it, must everything it say be exactly as you want it to be? Must everything it say be impossible to interpret in multiple ways and all the multiple ways it can be interpreted all have to be exactly accurate as you wish?
One could even make excuses like "God that instant made that true, you were not existing for that", but honestly, I find these things petty and want to get to the real root of the issue.
The important question here is what are your conditions? What does the Qur'an mean to you, why is it important? Why would this verse disturb your sense of peace? Is your religion so fragile that something like this would make you feel that you are faltering? In that case I encourage you (and this is not meant to be rude or mocking, but to literally strengthen your resolve) to reject the Qur'an outright, and reject God too, to go full force into the deepest and darkest thoughts, and you may come out of it with a deeper understanding, that a Muslim is a Muslim because God can't be defeated, so we have no option but surrender.
So take from everything what is best, and eschew what you might not understand or what you might interpret as wrong or misleading or useless to you or harmful.
All the world is Allah's world, and all the words are from Allah, be they misleading or truthful, it is Allah who guides people or makes them wander.
My conditions for the Qur'an? My conditions for the Qur'an are that it says enough of what I want it to say and promotes the message that I already believe in, which is that there is only the Ultimate who has all power over all information (including power over us entirely), and can not be defeated. If it said otherwise, I would put it aside because it would not correspond with my beliefs or conditions, it wouldn't matter to me if it even did come from some "God" that claimed to have partners, I would fight against it, because such a concept is weak, even if it were somehow "true", I believe only in the Ultimate, and the Qur'an confirms my own beliefs and is a useful tool for promoting these beliefs (possibly the most useful due to its strong anti-shirk, anti-partners, Ultimate only stance).
I worship the Ultimate because I can't harm or defeat the Ultimate, there is no option but surrender, willingly or unwillingly. Its a fight I can't win any other way, there is no other action to take but to seek benefit from the Ultimate and hope to avoid harm from the Ultimate.
I believe in the Qur'an because it says what I want it to say mostly, if it didn't say what I wanted it to say, I'd not use it, it wouldn't be useful to me very much.
What the Qur'an might say that I don't want it to say, I try to make it say what I want it to say, and if I can't do that, I might try to justify it, and if that is even wrong, I might just ignore those parts or not put them into practice in the way I interpret them, because Ultimately, this is a discussion between me and God, a matter that might be brought up later, so if I want to give my child a certain amount of money for whatever reason, I think that I'm free to do that, while Allah has given prescriptions about stuff and there are reasons also for that, but I also don't really care always and think there is definite freedom and other circumstances and Allah knows best and Allah is the one that one should be careful of and directly be dealing with.
Do you view yourself as a "Qur'anist"? Why make this into a faction. I happen to like the Qur'an and follow it, because the religion it presents is generally the same as my religion, and anything which is in accordance to my religion, is acceptable and usable for me.
Allah can give guidance through any book or words or people or things or signs, and Allah can give a thing which has things we might like and things we might dislike, and Allah can give us a book that has things in it we hate or which he has made disgusting for us, and Allah can give us a book which has some good guidance and other bad guidance. Allah can make all these things. Allah has given us the beautiful Qur'an. " Give, then, this glad tiding to My servants, who listen to all that is said, and follow the best of it it is they whom God has graced with His guidance, and it is they who are endowed with insight!" - 3917-18
Follow the best of it, Allah will judge the matter, and may or may not answer your questions. Allah can turn you into a disbeliever, or strengthen you in Islam
226
Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;
I say embrace the Dark Side, that embracing the Dark Side may be a necessary step in your development, just as I embrace all those thoughts and examine them carefully to know firmly why I am doing this, why I am following this strategy. By "Dark Side" I mean allowing yourself to question and come up with the worst possible case scenarios and examining why those mean anything to you at all.
My religion is Surrender (Islam), I am an iconoclast, one who performs the Jihad, an idol-slayer (idolatry of the mind), Allah is the foe who can not be outdone, who can not be defeated, who can not even be harmed, who has power over all things, who controls me and everything, after smashing all the idols, all the concerns, all the political stances, we find behind it all is what is like Nothing, that is Allah only, SubhanAllah (Subhan meaning void, like nothing, not made of information while making all information).
So it is good to be fighting for equal rights for females and all kinds of nice things for humanity out of mercy and compassion and justice and righteousness, but at the end of the day (and the beginning of the day) it comes to one thing, nothing at all matters, nothing is necessarily even "true" (as in lasting) other than The Ultimate, and the Ultimate makes all information, destroys it, exchanges it, transforms it, animates it, and can make one thing true one moment, and another thing true another moment, just like Allah turned the piece of wood into a snake, and snake into a piece of wood, what is true? Allah only is True (as in lasting), but there is No Other Eternal Truth. "Nothing is True, Everything is Permissable (to achieve the goal)" Allah is the one who is like nothing, and the goal is paradise (lasting pleasure).
It is easy to become non-individuated and "return to Allah", simply by killing oneself (which one can not truly do unless Allah wills it and makes it successfully occur), and we will be returned to a state of non-information (which is entirely skipped, since we can only experience information and can't experience non-information which is Allah, who showed this to Musa also by making the mountain completely obliterated and Musa going unconscious, which is also "non-information", same as a dreamless sleep, all these things are connected to "returning to Allah" who is in a sense "like Death" which is non-information, no information is experienced by someone who is truly "dead" and Allah is not made of information so can not be experienced in that essential form but only through the medium of information can we experience anything. Allah is likewise, the "life" of all things, literally animating all reality.
Why I bring these things up is because I think it would be best if our minds contemplated these sorts of things rather than petty seeming issues like this verse.
It may not seem petty to you of course, but either you make a big deal out of it and spin it as being dehumanizing to women or ignore it or spin it in some other way, it depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to throw away the Qur'an, I believe everyone with such an inclination should absolutely by all means throw it aside or give it to someone else. In my case, the Qur'an is a tool, like lamp, that can be used to shine light upon the Truth which is the Ultimate, it has many useful things for that, so I would keep it for that reason, even if it had a single verse in it that said the worst possible thing imaginable, I would still use what is useful out of it.
So please, engage with me, talk with me, I would like to discover more about your particular religion (or Deen) and your qualms.