Christians will be punished and are wicked???...
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Thanks Huruf for the response and everyone else. I realised that all translators seem to translate a certain word mentioned at the end as "wicked" when in fact wrongdoers is a better fit... However, on both occassions these people have been classified as hiding the truth (kaffir) and these hiders of truth are said to be setting partners up with the God and destined to hell. I can only see that it's saying if you say God is a third of three or that God is the messiah is a bad thing that seems to get you the coverer of truth status and the setting up of partners link. So what about Hindus? What about all the good hindus or the Christians who believe that God IS a third of the trinity that are good humane people? I can't see how they can be condemned to hell. Sure they might be wrong in what they do... But to be condemned to hell???
Input from others such as Samia or Wakas etc will be appreciated
Hi, Peace be unto you! The stance of the Qur'an seems to be (based on what it says), that those who Allah guides will be guided aright, and those who die in a state of disbelief or believing wrongly, do so because God has not given them guidance or led them aright. Everything God creates is information, and God creates everything in the experience of people, down to their thoughts and actions. God has created these things called "idolaters" and "evildoers" and whatever else, it is God who is ultimately responsible for their existence, and just like God has created fish that they should live in the sea, God has said that creation is made for hell.
People may not wish to hear this, and you have no need to state it to people like that necessarily if you are teaching them about Islam, but you can urge them away from their false conceptions, associations, and idolatry, if Allah wills you to do it, and if Allah wills, they may be guided thereby and correct themselves, or if Allah wills, he may use your words as evidence against them on the day of Judgment, and they will not be able to deny what they were made to be, what they were, and their rightful place, as Allah has power over all things, and decides all matters, so freely can place whomever in the fire, or harm anyone for any reason or no reason.
I know this answer may sound unsatisfying, but Allah promises that he is not a tyrant, and will do perfect justice, that not a single person who was actually good will be harmed in the least in the afterlife, and that Allah knows them fully, but you only see some things but not inside their minds and throughout their days.
If you have any other questions pertaining to Islam, I'm very happy to answer them by email at [email protected] and your questions and questioning helps me greatly since I get the opportunity to say these things and think of these answers by the grace of Allah!
Thank you again for your question, and I hope you don't mind my answer.
Shirk is considered the greatest sin, and the misunderstanding of the "Trinity" and considering Jesus to be God or the literal Son of God is considered extremely grave and tremendous, far more than other things, and though it may seem like nothing to us, we should meditate on what is wrong with these statements and why such a fuss is made in the Qur'an about it.
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Hi, Peace be unto you! The stance of the Qur'an seems to be (based on what it says), that those who Allah guides will be guided aright, and those who die in a state of disbelief or believing wrongly, do so because God has not given them guidance or led them aright. Everything God creates is information, and God creates everything in the experience of people, down to their thoughts and actions. God has created these things called "idolaters" and "evildoers" and whatever else, it is God who is ultimately responsible for their existence, and just like God has created fish that they should live in the sea, God has said that creation is made for hell.
People may not wish to hear this, and you have no need to state it to people like that necessarily if you are teaching them about Islam, but you can urge them away from their false conceptions, associations, and idolatry, if Allah wills you to do it, and if Allah wills, they may be guided thereby and correct themselves, or if Allah wills, he may use your words as evidence against them on the day of Judgment, and they will not be able to deny what they were made to be, what they were, and their rightful place, as Allah has power over all things, and decides all matters, so freely can place whomever in the fire, or harm anyone for any reason or no reason.
I know this answer may sound unsatisfying, but Allah promises that he is not a tyrant, and will do perfect justice, that not a single person who was actually good will be harmed in the least in the afterlife, and that Allah knows them fully, but you only see some things but not inside their minds and throughout their days.
If you have any other questions pertaining to Islam, I'm very happy to answer them by email at [email protected] and your questions and questioning helps me greatly since I get the opportunity to say these things and think of these answers by the grace of Allah!
Thank you again for your question, and I hope you don't mind my answer.
Shirk is considered the greatest sin, and the misunderstanding of the "Trinity" and considering Jesus to be God or the literal Son of God is considered extremely grave and tremendous, far more than other things, and though it may seem like nothing to us, we should meditate on what is wrong with these statements and why such a fuss is made in the Qur'an about it.
Important thing is to actually define what shirk is and if people just saying something is defined as shirk. If I was brought up continuously being told that a plank of wood is God.. would I find it easy to think otherwise? And even if I did think otherwise or not... Why am I condemned to hell?? What is belief in God? Why does not believing in the creator alone cause problems and cause you to go to hell/be stuck in the fire/illusion? There is more to it than it seems... That's why God asks you to ponder on it...
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Important thing is to actually define what shirk is and if people just saying something is defined as shirk. If I was brought up continuously being told that a plank of wood is God.. would I find it easy to think otherwise? And even if I did think otherwise or not... Why am I condemned to hell?? What is belief in God? Why does not believing in the creator alone cause problems and cause you to go to hell/be stuck in the fire/illusion? There is more to it than it seems... That's why God asks you to ponder on it...
The answer to me is very simple though, ultimately, it is all that way because God wants it to be that way. God could have made it different, and made it that worshiping idols is a thing of great virtue which gets people the highest rewards in this life and the next, but God didn't make it that way, instead God made it this specific way, where idolatry earns punishment and is something that will lead to harm. Thank you for your reply!
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The answer to me is very simple though, ultimately, it is all that way because God wants it to be that way. God could have made it different, and made it that worshiping idols is a thing of great virtue which gets people the highest rewards in this life and the next, but God didn't make it that way, instead God made it this specific way, where idolatry earns punishment and is something that will lead to harm. Thank you for your reply!
I rather not go by the "it is because Allah says so" motto. Logic and reason and careful study need to be applied to ensure that this is the closest possible understanding to have. I do not believe in a God that will send those to hell who worship God as Jesus and do good works. What is the issue when praying to the "wrong" creator (or one that actually isn't a creator) because they have been misled? If the trinity is what God is referring to in 573, then you must disprove the trinity in order to backup the claim that they are in the wrong. How to do this? The issue then occurs also in how you interpret injeel. I do not reckon it's the bible, but simply the word of isa. What are his words? Are they found in the bible? Is the trinity found in the original bibles?
Then you have to question Hindus and other religions which worship different Gods. They are all condemned to hell? Sounds a lot like the "Muslims" who say if you're not a "Muslim"/follower of the entire contents of the Qur'an you go hell. I never got that impression from God in the Qur'an and I reckon it is a deeper meaning.
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Salam Sushi.
My understanding about shirk (covering the situation of Christians) is presented in below thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606470.msg352563#msg352563
It may give you some food for thought.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Shirk is sectarianism. Mushrik is a sectarian.
Some assimilation regarding Jesus is accepted for this is what Jesus tried to teach. He taught assimilation with God and said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me", hinting at the symbiosis between affiliated "creation" and Father/Creator.
Jesus taught that the materialized and distant approach to God is wrong. But Jesus did never say he was some (biological) offspring of God, but said anyone could be like him if they just followed what he taught. He did affirm that the Father is the only reckoning power, but also that every person who wants to belong to the "Kingdom" should be in the Father (like him). He was incredibly misunderstood, people made a sect based on his teachings and conjectured and fabricated a lot of erroneous claims regarding him. Despite this, on a spiritual plane Christians are among the most ascended people. They just need to understand Jesus' words a bit better.
Kafar is producing something. In the context of Quran it usually refers to inventing/fabricating something, by mistake or deliberately. It can also speak of production in general. It does not necessarily need to carry a negative meaning.
Salaam
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I rather not go by the "it is because Allah says so" motto. Logic and reason and careful study need to be applied to ensure that this is the closest possible understanding to have. I do not believe in a God that will send those to hell who worship God as Jesus and do good works. What is the issue when praying to the "wrong" creator (or one that actually isn't a creator) because they have been misled? If the trinity is what God is referring to in 573, then you must disprove the trinity in order to backup the claim that they are in the wrong. How to do this? The issue then occurs also in how you interpret injeel. I do not reckon it's the bible, but simply the word of isa. What are his words? Are they found in the bible? Is the trinity found in the original bibles?
Then you have to question Hindus and other religions which worship different Gods. They are all condemned to hell? Sounds a lot like the "Muslims" who say if you're not a "Muslim"/follower of the entire contents of the Qur'an you go hell. I never got that impression from God in the Qur'an and I reckon it is a deeper meaning.
The Trinity can be understood in a good way too, the objection is that Jesus, information made by God, is God.
I wasn't trying to say "it is because Allah says so" in the way you might be imagining, but literally, that this religion of Islam is of the mentality that God does whatever God wants to do and no one can stop God, so if God wants to throw someone in the fire, who can stop God? Justice? God is unbound to anything, is unlimited, God can do whatever (is what I had meant).
517
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."See? I wasn't just saying "Allah says so" it is the very core of the religion of Islam.
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The Trinity can be understood in a good way too, the objection is that Jesus, information made by God, is God.
I wasn't trying to say "it is because Allah says so" in the way you might be imagining, but literally, that this religion of Islam is of the mentality that God does whatever God wants to do and no one can stop God, so if God wants to throw someone in the fire, who can stop God? Justice? God is unbound to anything, is unlimited, God can do whatever (is what I had meant).
517
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."See? I wasn't just saying "Allah says so" it is the very core of the religion of Islam.
"Islam" isn't a "religion" in the Qur'an... Just pointing that out to you. And I do know that, what I'm saying is you have to ponder on the true meaning. You have to take all verses relating to shirk into context like MoF and Armaniz have been talking about...
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"Islam" isn't a "religion" in the Qur'an... Just pointing that out to you. And I do know that, what I'm saying is you have to ponder on the true meaning. You have to take all verses relating to shirk into context like MoF and Armaniz have been talking about...
I don't know how you define the word "religion" but I very likely did not mean it in the way you interpreted it. I meant only to refer to this
319
The Religion before Allah is Islam (surrender) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.385
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.Yes, it isn't a "specific religion" but the Universal Human Proto or Core religion of surrender. If you define the word religion in some very specific way, then I'm sorry for using that word and you can replace it with whatever word you prefer instead, such as Deen or whatever.
The Qur'an makes it quite clear that all matters will be Judged by God, that those who make partners with God will be judged accordingly too, and it may be that Allah forgives them, or it may be that he puts them into punishment, and Allah has power to do all things, even if it seems unjust right now to a person.
If you don't believe that, or like that, it is a matter of not really liking what the Qur'an seems to say on the matter. So in that case, there is no reason to hold on to the Qur'an, and if you find you can not interpret it in ways you prefer, and can not find anything useful in it, then one might be best served by writing a book of their own liking that says whatever they desire.
Though the Qur'an says that those who believe in false things will be punished, and seems to make a huge fuss about things like people saying Allah has had a son
184-
And to warn those who say Allah hath chosen a son,
(A thing) whereof they have no knowledge, nor (had) their fathers, Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.
But wouldst thou, perhaps, torment thyself to death with grief over them if they are not willing to believe in this message?
Verily We have made whatsoever is on the earth as an adornment thereof, that We may prove them - which of them is best in conduct.572-
Indeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, God is the Christ, son of Mary" - seeing that the Christ said, "O children of Israel! Worship God , who is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer." Behold, whoever ascribes divinity to any being beside God, unto him will God deny paradise, and his goal shall be the fire and such evildoers will have none to succour them!471-
God will bring to naught all the good deeds of those who are bent on denying the truth and bar from the path of God.55-
The deeds of anyone who rejects the faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.917-
IT IS NOT for those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God to visit or tend God's houses of worship, the while they bear witness against themselves that they are denying the truth. It is they whose works shall come to nought, and they who in the fire shall abide1988-
As it is, some assert, "The Most Gracious has taken unto Himself a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
whereat the heavens might well-nigh be rent into fragments, and the earth be split asunder, and the mountains fall down in ruins!
That men. should ascribe a son to the Most Gracious,
although it is inconceivable that the Most Gracious should take unto Himself a son!
There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave.
indeed, He has full cognizance of them, and has numbered them with numbering;
And each one of them will come unto Him on the Day of Resurrection, alone.
VERILY, those who attain to faith and do righteous deeds will the Most Gracious endow with love
And We make (this Scripture) easy in thy tongue, (O Muhammad) only that thou mayst bear good tidings therewith unto those who ward off (evil), and warn therewith the froward folk.
So the Qur'an seems to say that everyone will be Judged by Allah, that these lies are tremendous and it makes a huge fuss about them, that those who do not have this belief system, their works (good works) will be rendered ineffective and wasted (totally in vain).
God could be or do what seems entirely evil, but no one can stop God in what God decides to do, even if it is made by God to seem unjust to us.
So if the Qur'an is displeasing to you, and you find that it can not be interpreted in any way which is pleasing to you, and you don't believe that Allah can or does command these things in the way you perceive them, then there is no need to even worry about what the Qur'an says, like I've been saying to Samira in the other thread.
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The stuff about sons is a misunderstanding. It was never supposed to be literally sons but more close proximity to God in the expression. Something like Ahl Allah, much like belonging to God. Whole context is talking about assimilation with the realm of God and this assimilation which Jesus spoke about was misunderstood to make Jesus some kind of primitive biological offspring of God rather than of affinity and assimilation.
Please do not show people off from Qur'an because they highlight problems with current interpretations of Qur'an. These people would not be here if they did not have some kind of interest in it.
Have faith
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I don't know how you define the word "religion" but I very likely did not mean it in the way you interpreted it. I meant only to refer to this
319
The Religion before Allah is Islam (surrender) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.385
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.Yes, it isn't a "specific religion" but the Universal Human Proto or Core religion of surrender. If you define the word religion in some very specific way, then I'm sorry for using that word and you can replace it with whatever word you prefer instead, such as Deen or whatever.
The Qur'an makes it quite clear that all matters will be Judged by God, that those who make partners with God will be judged accordingly too, and it may be that Allah forgives them, or it may be that he puts them into punishment, and Allah has power to do all things, even if it seems unjust right now to a person.
If you don't believe that, or like that, it is a matter of not really liking what the Qur'an seems to say on the matter. So in that case, there is no reason to hold on to the Qur'an, and if you find you can not interpret it in ways you prefer, and can not find anything useful in it, then one might be best served by writing a book of their own liking that says whatever they desire.
Though the Qur'an says that those who believe in false things will be punished, and seems to make a huge fuss about things like people saying Allah has had a son
184-
And to warn those who say Allah hath chosen a son,
(A thing) whereof they have no knowledge, nor (had) their fathers, Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.
But wouldst thou, perhaps, torment thyself to death with grief over them if they are not willing to believe in this message?
Verily We have made whatsoever is on the earth as an adornment thereof, that We may prove them - which of them is best in conduct.572-
Indeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, God is the Christ, son of Mary" - seeing that the Christ said, "O children of Israel! Worship God , who is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer." Behold, whoever ascribes divinity to any being beside God, unto him will God deny paradise, and his goal shall be the fire and such evildoers will have none to succour them!471-
God will bring to naught all the good deeds of those who are bent on denying the truth and bar from the path of God.55-
The deeds of anyone who rejects the faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.917-
IT IS NOT for those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God to visit or tend God's houses of worship, the while they bear witness against themselves that they are denying the truth. It is they whose works shall come to nought, and they who in the fire shall abide1988-
As it is, some assert, "The Most Gracious has taken unto Himself a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
whereat the heavens might well-nigh be rent into fragments, and the earth be split asunder, and the mountains fall down in ruins!
That men. should ascribe a son to the Most Gracious,
although it is inconceivable that the Most Gracious should take unto Himself a son!
There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave.
indeed, He has full cognizance of them, and has numbered them with numbering;
And each one of them will come unto Him on the Day of Resurrection, alone.
VERILY, those who attain to faith and do righteous deeds will the Most Gracious endow with love
And We make (this Scripture) easy in thy tongue, (O Muhammad) only that thou mayst bear good tidings therewith unto those who ward off (evil), and warn therewith the froward folk.
So the Qur'an seems to say that everyone will be Judged by Allah, that these lies are tremendous and it makes a huge fuss about them, that those who do not have this belief system, their works (good works) will be rendered ineffective and wasted (totally in vain).
God could be or do what seems entirely evil, but no one can stop God in what God decides to do, even if it is made by God to seem unjust to us.
So if the Qur'an is displeasing to you, and you find that it can not be interpreted in any way which is pleasing to you, and you don't believe that Allah can or does command these things in the way you perceive them, then there is no need to even worry about what the Qur'an says, like I've been saying to Samira in the other thread.
I'm more bothered about your interpretation and translation on certain words. If you do not use care the spin that you put on the meanings change, that's all I meant. I very much value the Qur'an and I'd rather you not have to tell me that I should write my own book considering I would never do such thing - all is above the One. Plus, I believe hadicers are pretty screwed since they ascribe to the One what is not true and false to gain power over the people and sell God's words for a small price, woe to them for what they do! Just because one might not be happy with what they interpret, one doesn't just give up and throw in the towel. This is one of the greatest books written after all, and as much as I believe that it is inspired by my creator, I will always apply my logic and reason to it and if I'm not happy about something, then it will most likely be due to my faulty interpretation. I'm not an expert in Arabic by all means, so a lot of the time I have to rely on the translation and if I'm not happy with it I dig further, a bit like in 572 where most translators seem to say "wicked" to describe the people its describing, however the more "correct" translation would be "wrongdoers" - wicked is usually a different word in Arabic.
This is a revelation inspired by the creator - ponder upon it and do not say what you have no knowledge of, which is something I try not to do FreedomStands.
And thank you for clearing yourself up with the word "religion". The word "religion" is not one that I feel fits well with "deen" and "islam" is obviously a translatable word meaning "submission" or "peacemaking".
Peace.
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I don't know how you define the word "religion" but I very likely did not mean it in the way you interpreted it. I meant only to refer to this
319
The Religion before Allah is Islam (surrender) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.385
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.Yes, it isn't a "specific religion" but the Universal Human Proto or Core religion of surrender. If you define the word religion in some very specific way, then I'm sorry for using that word and you can replace it with whatever word you prefer instead, such as Deen or whatever.
Salam FreedomStands.
Your understanding of the term "islam" is very close to how we understand it - but the point Sushi is trying to highlight is that the English word "Religion" is a weak (if not totally wrong) translation for the arabic term "deen" (as in 319 and 385).
The word "deen" is better translated as system / world-view, which you are calling "Universal Human Proto or Core religion". I prefer the term "resolution". No matter if one is shia or sunni or hindu or christian or atheist one can have the "resolution" to submit to our Creator / Sustainer / Master by upholding our sense of right and wrong that He has bestowed us. Such submission is within the very nature of human beings - it is not a "religion" that one needs to be born into or adopt or convert to.
The English word "religion" resembles another Quranic term - "millat". When it comes to the choice of religion/millat. Qur'an's verdict is clear - "millati ibrahima hanifa" - The Religion of Abraham is precise.
(More on my understanding of ?millat-i-ibrahim here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606914.msg357650#msg357650
and here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606927.msg357937#msg357937)So, I like to put it this way - my resolution (deen) is that I strive to be a muslim - meaning I strive to submit to my Master (my Creator and Sustainer) by upholding my sense of right and wrong that He has bestowed me. Scriptures and messengers are only the means or helping tools towards that end. My religion (millat) is the "Religion of Abraham" (millat-i-ibrahim) - I do not see a need to further classify myself as Jew / Christian / Shia / Sunni etc.
I believe in your understanding you are in the same page with us, the confusion is only in the semantics.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam FreedomStands.
Your understanding of the term "islam" is very close to how we understand it - but the point Sushi is trying to highlight is that the English word "Religion" is a weak (if not totally wrong) translation for the arabic term "deen" (as in 319 and 385).
The word "deen" is better translated as system / world-view, which you are calling "Universal Human Proto or Core religion". I prefer the term "resolution". No matter if one is shia or sunni or hindu or christian or atheist one can have the "resolution" to submit to our Creator / Sustainer / Master by upholding our sense of right and wrong that He has bestowed us. Such submission is within the very nature of human beings - it is not a "religion" that one needs to be born into or adopt or convert to.
The English word "religion" resembles another Quranic term - "millat". When it comes to the choice of religion/millat. Qur'an's verdict is clear - "millati ibrahima hanifa" - The Religion of Abraham is precise.
(More on my understanding of ?millat-i-ibrahim here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606914.msg357650#msg357650
and here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606927.msg357937#msg357937)So, I like to put it this way - my resolution (deen) is that I strive to be a muslim - meaning I strive to submit to my Master (my Creator and Sustainer) by upholding my sense of right and wrong that He has bestowed me. Scriptures and messengers are only the means or helping tools towards that end. My religion (millat) is the "Religion of Abraham" (millat-i-ibrahim) - I do not see a need to further classify myself as Jew / Christian / Shia / Sunni etc.
I believe in your understanding you are in the same page with us, the confusion is only in the semantics.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanYes, you and I probably believe the same and are of the same "millat" and "deen". I also agree that we need not make distinctions or divisions or parties among ourselves and all that you said I agree with. I agree that it is a matter of semantics, and I also try not to get bogged down too much with semantics and can adopt different words if people prefer to refer to certain concepts. I've noticed lots of people seem to even have a very specific idea in their mind when they say the word "God" for example which is pretty different from the right idea, and they insist almost it can only be their strange idea (even atheists who reject "God" seem to be stuck on their idea about God which is making them reject it, so instead I adopt whatever terminology they are more comfortable with to refer to the Ultimate).
Semantics, almost like the story of the Tower of Babel from the Bible, often blocks and disrupts communication greatly.
In the case of Sushi though, I wanted to encourage (as I've been doing with Samira too, though I'm not sure how much of my writing they are reading or understanding), that to allow themselves to fully think about these things and what their issues are and realize the real underlying issue that might be bothering them, if it is that they feel the Qur'an describes Allah as unjust, or whatever it might be, and then to give them strengthening factors related to that, like "alright, lets say it is that way, that it is so, so then what? Who can fight Allah?" and this to bring it to a final logical resolution, where their options are
- Continue to use the Qur'an for whatever benefit they can find from it if you can and wish to.
- Put aside the Qur'an if you can not derive any benefit from it and find that it is entirely incompatible with your beliefs.
- The deen before Allah is the surrender, we are the core of every religion, we take what is best and we do what we think we can in order to achieve the goal (which is to avoid harm/suffering and attain to good/pleasure).
The Qur'an contains a message to us, the believers, and it matches well with the beliefs of those who already believe anyway, we listen to everything and follow the best of it or the best we can (as I mentioned in my writing to Samira in her "oppressive to women" thread).
Though we might not want to mislead people with semantics, I consider myself a serious and devout devotee of a great many "religions" or "deens" or whatever, since there is only one religion, one message, and the evidence for it can literally be found in all the texts that are still around.
I'm a real Muslim as far as I can tell, a real Hindu, a real Jew, a real Christian, and Buddhist (I know we might not want to use these terms because of the things associated with them but they can all be explained thoroughly, I'm very familiar with them), a genuine Catholic (meaning Universal), a real follower of all the ancient things from the past (which all generally said the same things, just used different words and languages, but the same general concepts were available to them). I can turn a great many things by the Grace of Allah into a message about the Ultimate, using whatever terminology people might prefer while carefully defining or re-defining the terms to better match the one deen. I can use Satanist terminology, Luciferian terminology, Atheist terminology in order to invite all these people to a good understanding (and it isn't hard to demonstrate how this might be done). If someone says that Islam is a Death Cult, I can turn that around and even say "Yes!" and then carefully explain it to lead them to an understanding of the Ultimate too.
There is almost no religious linguistic framework that I haven't been able to subvert towards the same message and demonstrate Islam through.
The religion that is really opposite from Islam in its theology is Mormonism though, the closest one can get to those ideas is by saying "even if such things existed, we refer only to the Ultimate, nothing less or later, and even if such things existed, we would not worship them or call them "God" or "Gods" (since the Mormons use the term "God" generally to refer to "God the Father" who they take to be a literal human being born of human parents who had become "Gods" and who himself "became a God" and has a literal son and literal wife, and so they are like the perfect example of a theology entirely different or even opposite from Islam), and the same goes for the typical ideas related to the term "God" that the Atheists tend to provide which also imagine the term to mean some kind of powerful man in the clouds or something, which the Atheists rightfully find absurd (their only problem being thinking that the word can only be used to refer to that concept in their imagination).
The ability to use all these religions or whatever you might want to call them to our advantage comes from studying them and learning about the terminologies and seeing how they can be used to promote the same message regarding the Ultimate.
As for these people though, it is good in a sense that they bring up their anxieties and problems with the Qur'an or Islam or Muslims or whatever, but should also try to understand the core of our deen, its very meaning, is Surrender. We are to understand that Allah is the one who makes the "truth", that all these things are the creations of Allah, that Allah can change what is "real" or "true" in an instant, that there is no "truth" as in "something which lasts or endures on its own" other than Allah alone who is Al-Haqq.
So people getting caught up on why is it this way, why is it that way, or even that science is this way, or these are the laws of physics, and blah blah, might seem to not yet understand the very nature of our religion is that there is only Allah who is the Lasting and True, that Allah who is like nothing, as in not made of any information, is the one who manifests all that we do and know and think and see and experience and hear and say and read and everything because all that is just information which Allah makes, and we are also information, and all we know is the information Allah has made specifically for us to experience, and Allah can change the information easily in an instant, and gives us all the impressions of time and space and dimensions and all these things and every moment is creating and destroying and exchanging information and animating our experience. So all these things in between, all these "sciences" (though I enjoy science of course and its an important tool) and "systems" people invent to try to understand things, are ultimately petty endeavors when it comes to the Ultimate Reality which is Allah alone who is just making these things and can make other things and none of it has any great importance, all that is important is to avoid suffering and attain to pleasure if we can (and we can't save if Allah wills it), and we are completely helpless and in a state of utter surrender.
So they think that Allah can't or shouldn't make a book which says the things that it says? Allah does whatever Allah wants to do, Allah even is the one responsible for their understanding or misunderstanding, and our performances here are also only demonstrations that might be brought up later as to what we said and did and how it was proven or made manifest as to "what we were and are".
One may comfort themselves in believing that no matter what, Allah won't throw the idolaters and people who do shirk into the fire, and it may be true that Allah may not do that, but all power belongs to Allah, and Allah certainly can throw them in the fire, and Allah does whatever Allah wants to do and is not bound by anything, not by any law or authority, but has the only true Free Will, and there is no one who can stop Allah no matter what they may be made to wish or desire.
I do not comfort myself with such thoughts necessarily, because it is not in my opinion the purest form of the deen. The purest form in my opinion is understanding that Allah can do whatever Allah wants to do, and for Allah it is simply a matter of "Be" and it is. Allah has said that he has chosen for himself Mercy, Allah didn't need to choose that, Allah didn't need to do anything and is not pressured and is free from all needs and requirements and conditions.
So to purify our religion, I think it is a good practice to allow ourselves these dark meditations, to understand the surrender and make the realization absolute and total. That even if you deem Allah evil, who can defy Allah? We are following this strategy because Allah is the only one we can't overcome or defeat, the one we rely on even to exist, our every experience relying on Allah every moment and coming from Allah every moment (also as a side note, "moment" might be misleading, even the experience of "time" is just information created by Allah, Allah encompasses all these things but is not encompassed by anything and is the sole and Greatest).
I said some similar things perhaps to Samira
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607127.msg360942#msg360942 -
I'm more bothered about your interpretation and translation on certain words. If you do not use care the spin that you put on the meanings change, that's all I meant. I very much value the Qur'an and I'd rather you not have to tell me that I should write my own book considering I would never do such thing - all is above the One. Plus, I believe hadicers are pretty screwed since they ascribe to the One what is not true and false to gain power over the people and sell God's words for a small price, woe to them for what they do! Just because one might not be happy with what they interpret, one doesn't just give up and throw in the towel. This is one of the greatest books written after all, and as much as I believe that it is inspired by my creator, I will always apply my logic and reason to it and if I'm not happy about something, then it will most likely be due to my faulty interpretation. I'm not an expert in Arabic by all means, so a lot of the time I have to rely on the translation and if I'm not happy with it I dig further, a bit like in 572 where most translators seem to say "wicked" to describe the people its describing, however the more "correct" translation would be "wrongdoers" - wicked is usually a different word in Arabic.
This is a revelation inspired by the creator - ponder upon it and do not say what you have no knowledge of, which is something I try not to do FreedomStands.
And thank you for clearing yourself up with the word "religion". The word "religion" is not one that I feel fits well with "deen" and "islam" is obviously a translatable word meaning "submission" or "peacemaking".
Peace.
Thank you for your reply!
I didn't mean to insult you at all by suggesting you write your own book, I think it is a good thing if people write down the ideas they want to promote, and it can be easy in the form of a book. Such a book could be a force of good in the world.
The Qur'an is a specific Arabic collection of text today, and though many people say they believe in it, a great many may not even be familiar with the most basic translations of its words (like the typical English translations or whatever).
I was instead trying to bring your focus onto something different, by encouraging that you do think about these things, and think about them to their full extent, in order to strengthen yourself in the realization of surrender.
For example (and forgive me if this sounds blasphemous, but it is meant to be an exercise to strengthen one in Islam)
Consider if Allah were unjust or entirely evil and that the book of Allah said things which are entirely cruel.
What is Allah? Allah is not an accusation towards some being, but a word referring to whatever is the actual Ultimate. So whatever is Ultimate, and manifests all information, is not bound by anything, nor does it have any law to control it (you can see the Biblical book of Job which also supports this understanding).
So if Allah wanted to harm someone, who can stop Allah? If Allah wanted to burn and cause the experience of utter suffering for the most kind and wonderful seeming Christian, even a Christian who believed only in Allah, or even a Muslim who surrendered and was most pious, who can stop Allah? Who can defeat or overcome Allah and what Allah wills?
Yet some things are true regardless, for example, all information is information, so if there was a form, even if the form is entirely controlled by Allah (as all things actually are), that form would be information, it would not be Allah or encompass Allah entirely, it would just be information controlled by Allah. So when we say Jesus was not Allah, we are saying that Jesus is a form, information created by Allah, and Allah can destroy the form, and Allah can cause suffering to the one experiencing "being" that certain set of information, and Allah can do all things, even to the pious, even to the just, even to the most righteous.
I am a follower of logic and reason too, and it is through logic we come to these understandings and purify our understanding and realize our state of surrender.
So if Allah wrote a book which tells us to do what is evil, should we do it? No, we must be careful in our actions, and fear Allah, and try to see if its sensible to do this, though should know full well that Allah can indeed make such a request, as Allah is capable of anything, yet we should be cautious as to not be caught in a trap as much as we deem it possible, since we wish to attain pleasure and not suffering as the constant goal. If I were requested to do such a thing, I would beg Allah to spare me and forgive me for not taking on the task, and that if Allah makes me do it is the only way that it will be done (which is true anyway).
Luckily, and Mercifully, Allah did not lead us to a book which commands us to do anything greatly difficult or evil, which we should be deeply grateful for, knowing that it is so only by Allah's will and Allah's merciful decision, not that "Allah can't do it" or "Allah wouldn't do it". Certainly Allah can do it, and for many Allah has done it, leading many to things which command them to do evil and proving or manifesting their evilness thereby, just as Allah created them to be or made them to be, like how fish are made for the water, such are made for the hell fire, by Allah's will, Allah who creates whatever Allah wants to create.
So use your darkest thoughts even to purify your religion.
My master is the Lord of Evil, the Master of Good, there is no other source of Calamity, no other give of Peace and Joy.
I feel great empowerment in the praises of my Master, ever the praises which people might deem blasphemous at first, though to say Allah is the source of everything that exists, is not a blasphemy, but to say Allah is the source of some things, while there is some other creator of other things, is shirk and also supposed to be a lie, nothing ultimately manifests anything other than Allah (who is like nothing, literally not made of information so like nothing at all, not black or white or empty space or dimensions or anything, but making all information ultimately, even if we saw something come out of the mouth of something else, it is Allah who is responsible for making all information, there is no creator save the Ultimate).
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Thank you for your reply!
I didn't mean to insult you at all by suggesting you write your own book, I think it is a good thing if people write down the ideas they want to promote, and it can be easy in the form of a book. Such a book could be a force of good in the world.
The Qur'an is a specific Arabic collection of text today, and though many people say they believe in it, a great many may not even be familiar with the most basic translations of its words (like the typical English translations or whatever).
I was instead trying to bring your focus onto something different, by encouraging that you do think about these things, and think about them to their full extent, in order to strengthen yourself in the realization of surrender.
For example (and forgive me if this sounds blasphemous, but it is meant to be an exercise to strengthen one in Islam)
Consider if Allah were unjust or entirely evil and that the book of Allah said things which are entirely cruel.
What is Allah? Allah is not an accusation towards some being, but a word referring to whatever is the actual Ultimate. So whatever is Ultimate, and manifests all information, is not bound by anything, nor does it have any law to control it (you can see the Biblical book of Job which also supports this understanding).
So if Allah wanted to harm someone, who can stop Allah? If Allah wanted to burn and cause the experience of utter suffering for the most kind and wonderful seeming Christian, even a Christian who believed only in Allah, or even a Muslim who surrendered and was most pious, who can stop Allah? Who can defeat or overcome Allah and what Allah wills?
Yet some things are true regardless, for example, all information is information, so if there was a form, even if the form is entirely controlled by Allah (as all things actually are), that form would be information, it would not be Allah or encompass Allah entirely, it would just be information controlled by Allah. So when we say Jesus was not Allah, we are saying that Jesus is a form, information created by Allah, and Allah can destroy the form, and Allah can cause suffering to the one experiencing "being" that certain set of information, and Allah can do all things, even to the pious, even to the just, even to the most righteous.
I am a follower of logic and reason too, and it is through logic we come to these understandings and purify our understanding and realize our state of surrender.
So if Allah wrote a book which tells us to do what is evil, should we do it? No, we must be careful in our actions, and fear Allah, and try to see if its sensible to do this, though should know full well that Allah can indeed make such a request, as Allah is capable of anything, yet we should be cautious as to not be caught in a trap as much as we deem it possible, since we wish to attain pleasure and not suffering as the constant goal. If I were requested to do such a thing, I would beg Allah to spare me and forgive me for not taking on the task, and that if Allah makes me do it is the only way that it will be done (which is true anyway).
Luckily, and Mercifully, Allah did not lead us to a book which commands us to do anything greatly difficult or evil, which we should be deeply grateful for, knowing that it is so only by Allah's will and Allah's merciful decision, not that "Allah can't do it" or "Allah wouldn't do it". Certainly Allah can do it, and for many Allah has done it, leading many to things which command them to do evil and proving or manifesting their evilness thereby, just as Allah created them to be or made them to be, like how fish are made for the water, such are made for the hell fire, by Allah's will, Allah who creates whatever Allah wants to create.
So use your darkest thoughts even to purify your religion.
My master is the Lord of Evil, the Master of Good, there is no other source of Calamity, no other give of Peace and Joy.
I feel great empowerment in the praises of my Master, ever the praises which people might deem blasphemous at first, though to say Allah is the source of everything that exists, is not a blasphemy, but to say Allah is the source of some things, while there is some other creator of other things, is shirk and also supposed to be a lie, nothing ultimately manifests anything other than Allah (who is like nothing, literally not made of information so like nothing at all, not black or white or empty space or dimensions or anything, but making all information ultimately, even if we saw something come out of the mouth of something else, it is Allah who is responsible for making all information, there is no creator save the Ultimate).
Totally agree, I'll post something more substantial after work. But indeed, the creator can do anything it wishes... It is if we choose to try and understand this that matters...
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Totally agree, I'll post something more substantial after work. But indeed, the creator can do anything it wishes... It is if we choose to try and understand this that matters...
Thank you so much for taking out some time to read that and write that! Thank you for letting me know that you agree! It makes me feel so happy, thank you again!
What work do you do, if you don't mind my asking? I'm currently not doing too much, so perhaps that is why I can write these long things haha. I apologize for the length but I hope you enjoyed reading my writing so far!
I agree with what you wrote as well, and I'll add that even our understanding or ability to understand comes from that same source of all our experiences.
If you would ever like to correspond with me in private, my email is [email protected] (I'm a big fan of pikachu as well!), and I can discuss with you anything you may be concerned about or wondering about, and of course, everything I say is just my opinion, just stuff that I'm saying for whatever reason, but take from it what you like and use it to your advantage whenever possible for your own benefit and success!
I am one who you can bring your deepest and darkest thoughts and concerns to, and I may be, by the grace of Allah, able to help bring some different perspective or focus on the matter!
Thank you again for taking the time to reply and agreeing with my statements! I look forward to your lengthier reply, but you do not need to feel any obligation or pressure in writing anything long or whatever if you don't feel like it, but if you do, I'm very enthusiastic about reading more of what you might have to say!
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Thank you so much for taking out some time to read that and write that! Thank you for letting me know that you agree! It makes me feel so happy, thank you again!
What work do you do, if you don't mind my asking? I'm currently not doing too much, so perhaps that is why I can write these long things haha. I apologize for the length but I hope you enjoyed reading my writing so far!
I agree with what you wrote as well, and I'll add that even our understanding or ability to understand comes from that same source of all our experiences.
If you would ever like to correspond with me in private, my email is [email protected] (I'm a big fan of pikachu as well!), and I can discuss with you anything you may be concerned about or wondering about, and of course, everything I say is just my opinion, just stuff that I'm saying for whatever reason, but take from it what you like and use it to your advantage whenever possible for your own benefit and success!
I am one who you can bring your deepest and darkest thoughts and concerns to, and I may be, by the grace of Allah, able to help bring some different perspective or focus on the matter!
Thank you again for taking the time to reply and agreeing with my statements! I look forward to your lengthier reply, but you do not need to feel any obligation or pressure in writing anything long or whatever if you don't feel like it, but if you do, I'm very enthusiastic about reading more of what you might have to say!
Peace Freedom & MoF & Armaniz,
I'm a software engineer, so quite busy in this world.
I can say that the only part I try to comprehend is why would people who pay lip service out of ignorance suffer a painful retribution?
I agree... That ignorance annoys the hell out of me, but people who have been brought up as Christians or Jews or whatever will be taught what the community and parents have taught them (I agree that this isn't right and I bang on about "do you follow your forefathers when you're in error?" But, in terms of the trinity, Christians who follow blindly that there is a trinity, or hindus who pray to multiple Gods - as Armantiz's link showed, would God really punish those who worship other gods and not forgive them but be able to forgive rapests murderers etc?
That's why I was saying it is very important to understand what shirk is.. because those who oppress people with rape and take lives with murder, as I see it, are committing shirk - not people who just pray to a "different" God - this is due to their ignorance. And you must question does saying the trinity cause harm to your nafs/self? I think armantiz made a good point where if they say it to cause people to transgress and aggress, then yes, big no no. It's a bit like how I see the fabricators and the followers of these fabricators. Millions are taught hadices are something they must follow and are brainwashed by it. I do not blame the brainwashed but I blame the ones who fabricated in the first place, for they sold God's words for a cheap price.... To gain power and authority to do bad on this world...
I would agree with MoF and armaniz about how saying the trinity is only lip service technically they shouldn't be condemned to anguish for this, but there are 2 important things. In 573, it says that if those from among them "say" that God is a third of 3 then they will incur a painful punishment, not even if they way this to hide the truth knowingly - I would agree if they sought to lie knowingly, and I've heard many a time in the Qur'an where God condemns those who hide what they know. After all, what does kafara really mean? Is it not those who hide the truth? But is it hiding the truth intentionally or unintentionally, that's the question...
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Any Idea we have of what God is doing to anybody after death is just that an idea. It is not binding for God nor do we need to have for any purpose whatsoever. It is God's business and what God says it must be those concerned who have to process it as to themselves. We should take care that we are sincere, that we do not say we beieve something we don't but cannot bring up ourselves tio acknowledge that in fact we do not believe at all or to some degreee.
Worrying about the belief of others is of no use for us. Let them take care fo themselves and let God jusge himself. We do not have to do anything about that. And we do not know anything at all to make that kin of judgements.
Salaam
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Any Idea we have of what God is doing to anybody after death is just that an idea. It is not binding for God nor do we need to have for any purpose whatsoever. It is God's business and what God says it must be those concerned who have to process it as to themselves. We should take care that we are sincere, that we do not say we beieve something we don't but cannot bring up ourselves tio acknowledge that in fact we do not believe at all or to some degreee.
Worrying about the belief of others is of no use for us. Let them take care fo themselves and let God jusge himself. We do not have to do anything about that. And we do not know anything at all to make that kin of judgements.
Salaam
I understand huruf, I simply wanted to get a better understanding of what 572-574 was actually saying that's all. I know I don't have to be concerned about others, however I'd rather get the best understanding to try and warn others of this and ask them to read a similar thing. My question still stands in terms of what TYPE of people are being referred to in those verses...
Peace
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I would agree with MoF and armaniz about how saying the trinity is only lip service technically they shouldn't be condemned to anguish for this, but there are 2 important things. In 573, it says that if those from among them "say" that God is a third of 3 then they will incur a painful punishment, not even if they way this to hide the truth knowingly - I would agree if they sought to lie knowingly, and I've heard many a time in the Qur'an where God condemns those who hide what they know. After all, what does kafara really mean? Is it not those who hide the truth? But is it hiding the truth intentionally or unintentionally, that's the question...
Salam Sushi
I would just like to add my 2 cents to your remarks here. Please look-back carefully at 573 which says ?
Those who say, ?Indeed Allah is third of three? certainly repress (faith) ? and there is none of a god except the One God.?
Now, I invite you to do some very preliminary research on the concept of Trinity as believed / hypothesized by most Christians. A quick overview can be found here
http//www.everystudent.com/forum/trinity.htmlLet me now quote from this site
The Bible clearly speaks of God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. But emphasizes that there is only ONE God.
Let?s be honest ? does the site really say ??Indeed Allah is third of three?? No, it doesn?t. What it says is Allah/God is one ? He is manifested in three forms ? the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Per my humble understanding, this claim, too is "incomplete". Allah / God is the originator of everything ? Allah is infinite and by definition nothing can be out of Allah because that will make Allah finite. From another perspective, Allah / God existed on His Own. Then He created everything from within Himself ? He said ?be? and it ?was? ? so everything that we see and know in this universe is a manifestation of God?s will. So technically everything is a manifestation of Allah ? one way or the other. This is the idea clarified in the following verses
2115 And for Allah is the East and the West. So wherever you turn, there is face of Allah. Indeed, Allah is Accommodating , Knowledgeable.
2116 And they said, ?Allah has taken a child .? Exalted be He! No - Whatever is in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him; all are obedient to Him.
2117 Originator of the heavens and the earth - and when He decrees a command, then He only says to it, ?Be? and it would be.
(My personal translation; cross checking recommended.)Rather than Christian Trinity Theology the Bhagabat Geeta (Hindu Scripture) expression resembles the Quranic description more accurately/completely
Do your duty to the best of your ability without worrying about the results. Perceive that God is present equally in all beings and treat all beings equally..
So, going back to the Christian Trinity ? theology ? it is incomplete in the sense that it recognizes only three manifestations of God, while in reality there are infinite number of manifestations of God ? everything that ever existed is just as much a manifestation of God as Jesus is or the Holy Spirit is. The only speciality of Jesus (or other Messengers) is that they realized and acted upon their Unity with God more clearly and accurately than the rest of us. Thereby, the Christian Trinity ideology does not do full justice to the infiniteness of God/Allah. HOWEVER, the Christian Trinity ideology does not (generally) recognize God as one-third of the three as mentioned in 573. The warning of 573 is specifically issued against the specific perverted group within the broader ?Christian? family who consider God/Allah to be a separate entity amongst three distinct entities that can be called God. This type of ideology ? gives one the impression that if you can somehow please Jesus by establishing a big kingdom that worship him ? you do not need to please God by being a good person ? Jesus would intercede with God on your behalf. That is the kind of belief that inspired the Crusaders or the Nazis. In other words that is the theology that differentiates between God and the Messenger
4150 Indeed those who repress (faith) in Allah and His messengers and they intend that they differentiate between Allah and His messengers and they say, ?We have faith in some and we repress (faith) in others.? and they intend that they take a path between that.
4151 They are the ones ? they are truly the ones who repress (faith) and We have prepared a humiliating suffering for the ones who repress (faith).
(My personal translation; cross checking recommended.)Qur'an invites us to recognize that the Messengers (Be it Jesus or Muhammad) are not distinct from Allah - they are the vehicles of the Word of Allah only. There is no way to please the Messenger - there is only one way - please Allah/God by being obedient to the sense of right and wrong that He has gifted you. You can neither please Jesus by raising war in his name, nor can you please Muhammad by shooting people for drawing cartoon of him - The only way of pleasing the messengers (or rather acting upon the teaching of the messenger) is by obeying Allah - by upholding your conscience and intellect.
So, in a nutshell ? while the Christian Trinity Theology (as generally preached in Christian Churches) is less than accurate from a Quranic perspective ? it is not fair to say the stern warning of verse 573 applies against all Christians who provide lip service to the concept of Trinity. Because the concept of Trinity DOES NOT portray God as ?one-third of the three?.
Hope this helps. May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman