Christians will be punished and are wicked???...
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The truth is that Allah, who is not a human, who is not bound to any law, who has no real need or obligation to do anything or keep even any promise made to people, can do whatever Allah wants to do. That is not to say that Allah doesn't keep the promises, or that Allah doesn't choose to forgive.
No one knows what their judgment will be, we bet on our horses (our strategy to attain paradise) which is secretly Allah placing us on those horses and we ride them to the day of our deaths (the experience of death is skipped because non-information can not be experienced) then if Allah wills, he can bring people back and do whatever Allah wills again.
We have no immortal being, nor do the angels, nor do the jinn, anything that lives, lives by the will of Allah, it is Allah who upholds them, Allah who animates their existence, and can utterly destroy them, because Allah does as Allah wills, and we are in a state of utter surrender willingly or unwillingly. Who this realization is made by Allah to enter, may then know the nature of the Surrender.
That there is no Power other than Allah, that there is no Trust other than Allah, that we have no Faith or Security in things besides this knowledge, that we do not put faith in Justice being over Allah, that we do not put faith that Allah won't do something, that we do not put faith in "Balance" overcoming Allah, not any of these things, all such things are creations of Allah, information that Allah creates freely, and can change and can destroy, and can bring about a new thing, and a new creation, and new information, easily, so all these things are weak and transitory before Allah, and there is nothing eternal but Allah, not the Laws of Allah, not the Qur'an, not the Promises, not the Covenants, nothing is stable or eternal other than Allah alone, Allah alone is the only stable Eternally Lasting Truth, that Allah can change anything, Allah can change his words which are the information Allah creates and upholds, Allah is not bound to anything, Allah is not bound to law, to justice, to righteousness, to evil, to benefit, to harm, to reason, to logic, to rightness, to wrongness, all these are creations of Allah, all these can be changed, Allah alone is the Eternal Truth, that means the only stable and lasting one that does not change, is not made of any information at all, but all information that Allah makes, Allah can change easily.
This is the Truth about Allah, so that you know, and then you can focus on the Surrender, and not these concerns.
The Qur'an answers these questions and explains these things
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Allah can create anything, any information, any habitation, can create fish that fly in the sky instead of the sea, and can place those who do good deeds in the hell fire and make them experience their flesh burning repeatedly, Allah has the power to do whatever Allah wills, so fear Allah only, and know the truth, that Allah has power over all things and Allah can do whatever Allah wills, we rely on Allah only, we do not know what Allah will certainly do except we know that Allah will certainly do whatever Allah wills to do.
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The Qur'an has been made to say that the ones Allah created to be good and do good will be placed in a wonderful habitation, and the ones that Allah created to lie and spread lies and do evilness and are not allowed by Allah or guided by Allah to surrender are created for the fire as their home. Allah has power to do whatever Allah wants to do, and Allah does not make any mistake, nothing slips out of Allah's grasp, there is no error here, there is no possibility for anything to occur which Allah has not made occur, because Allah alone is the one animating all this information and creating it, it isn't as though Allah is some small and far away creature, Allah is like nothing at all, directly behind all this veil of information that shimmers, and it is Allah who is moving everything and giving us our mind, our attention, and any information we receive and how we receive it. We are the creation of Allah, made of information, given information by Allah to experience, the experience of eating food is from Allah, the experience of doubt is from Allah, the experience of forgetting is from Allah, the experience of praying is from Allah, the things that come out of your mouth, the lies and the truth are from Allah, each of these are creations of Allah no one is a creator of information or can produce anything but Allah, no event can occur save that Allah has done it.
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In the Qur'an, the various messengers mentioned make it obvious as well, and Isa is made to say something with great understanding, which is if you torment them, they are your slaves (fettered and bound to do whatever you will), and if you forgive them, you alone are the one with All the Power, all the Information (Al Aziz, Al Hakim).
So if Allah makes a Christian, who does good all their life, even worships in the fashion of a Muslim, who doesn't even say that Jesus is in the son, in fact lives entirely like a Muslim, and does righteousness all their life. Allah can if Allah so wills, throw them into the hell too, because Allah creates whatever Allah wills.
If there was a Muslim saintly person, or someone like me who says all these things, that Allah can do whatever Allah wills to do, Allah can even throw such in the fire if Allah wills, Allah creates whatever Allah wants to create, we should have no confidence that we have made Allah bound, that Allah is under some control, Allah is entirely Free, Allah wills Freely, we will only what Allah wills us to will, but Allah is unbounded, unconditioned, the creator of all our conditions, by which all information is bounded and fettered and dependent on Allah who is unfettered, unbounded, unconditioned, entirely free and freely creates whatever Allah wills. Knowing thus Allah, we should be afraid of Allah, never confident before Allah, nor were the Prophets confident in Justice or any such things, nor had they any Promise that they were so sure that Allah would not just as easily transform or destroy, we can not bind or control Allah, we are bound and controlled by Allah, Justice is whatever Allah makes it to be, its a creation of Allah. You will not be able to know Allah thus, nor fear Allah even, save as Allah wills.
So is your ego such, created by Allah, that you find your neck stiff on this matter? Allah can make it so that your inner being, your heart, your mind, is closed to understanding, or Allah can make you see what I am saying, and realize it, and can make the Surrender a part of your experience and existence, and such who are given the gift of realizing and enacting the Surrender, are those that Know Allah. To Know Allah, is to Know that We are Powerless, That All Information is Powerless, that The One that is not made of any information, The One who is like Nothing At All, Who can Only Be One, because Information is what Individuates and makes Appearances of Distinction, but Anything not made of any Information is said to "Return to Allah" and Allah is not made of Any Information, Is utter Annihilation (Nirvana) of all information, the Eternal and Lasting and Only Truth, Thus is Only Ever One, Singular, Alone.
Peace freedom,
I also appreciate all that you posted in regards to the Geta (i think it's called) - it was enlightening.
I do my very best to not let myself have an ego of any sort. Of course, the creator has endless power and we are nothing compared to it. If i fail to understand something or struggle, i usually put it down to my faulty understanding/interpretation/mistranslation. As i tell people, after reading the Reading, my beliefs did NOT change one bit - i believed in a creator, believed in free choice of whatever path to take, and also acknowledge that those decisions result in different consequences that only the creator knows...
I enjoy deciphering the contents of the Reading - i like to see how it compares to my current understanding - i also enjoy deciphering i translators have done a good job or not. It may seem like i have an ego but in fact, it's not the ego, it's more the annoyance that translators might hide certain things from us, might use certain words that are NOT actually what the creator uses... THAT is where I question - I do not question God's power... of course not - that would be futile and ridiculous... I quetsion how people write God's words and how they translate it to express to others who are not fluent in arabic and need to do extra study if they are curious on the contents of the quran. Of course, as i argue, someone who hasn't read the quran does not mean they are not a "muslim" or submitter/peacemaker... I had previously not read the quran and i didn't change much at all after i read it.
God can do whatever it wills but according to a verse that I read in the quran (cannot remember it tbh), God does not change its laws at will i.e. if gravity is 9.11 it won't just instantly change it to 15... it CAN but it WON'T (this is part of cause and effect anyway... http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603633.msg294996#msg294996).
The God can do whatever it wills, however we are given clues on how the system works by reading the quran, and we are given these same clues without the quran by observing CAUSE AND EFFECT on this earth and in this universe. )
peace
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Peace freedom,
I also appreciate all that you posted in regards to the Geta (i think it's called) - it was enlightening.
I do my very best to not let myself have an ego of any sort. Of course, the creator has endless power and we are nothing compared to it. If i fail to understand something or struggle, i usually put it down to my faulty understanding/interpretation/mistranslation. As i tell people, after reading the Reading, my beliefs did NOT change one bit - i believed in a creator, believed in free choice of whatever path to take, and also acknowledge that those decisions result in different consequences that only the creator knows...
I enjoy deciphering the contents of the Reading - i like to see how it compares to my current understanding - i also enjoy deciphering i translators have done a good job or not. It may seem like i have an ego but in fact, it's not the ego, it's more the annoyance that translators might hide certain things from us, might use certain words that are NOT actually what the creator uses... THAT is where I question - I do not question God's power... of course not - that would be futile and ridiculous... I quetsion how people write God's words and how they translate it to express to others who are not fluent in arabic and need to do extra study if they are curious on the contents of the quran. Of course, as i argue, someone who hasn't read the quran does not mean they are not a "muslim" or submitter/peacemaker... I had previously not read the quran and i didn't change much at all after i read it.
God can do whatever it wills but according to a verse that I read in the quran (cannot remember it tbh), God does not change its laws at will i.e. if gravity is 9.11 it won't just instantly change it to 15... it CAN but it WON'T (this is part of cause and effect anyway... http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603633.msg294996#msg294996).
The God can do whatever it wills, however we are given clues on how the system works by reading the quran, and we are given these same clues without the quran by observing CAUSE AND EFFECT on this earth and in this universe. )
peace
I didn't mean to suggest you have an ego, my ego is possibly way bigger than that ego of everyone, the ego thing was a general statement to anyone reading the post, about being too proud to surrender and really thinking they are "partners" with Allah, that they create things, that they decide things, that they have a will alongside Allah's will.
It appeared you were very careful to not mention above that Allah is the one who decides who is guided or who goes astray, but said instead that Allah "knows" rather than that Allah directly makes it so or wills it, which is what the Qur'an seems to say repeatedly, as I've shown at various times which you can read in my post collection.
I would say that it is some kind of ego attachment that people insist they have power when Allah alone has power, the will is Allah's not our will, even your life is from Allah and by Allah you live. I didn't mean that you are an egotistical or arrogant person.
I will say that I am very egotistical, I am very proud, I stand with arrogance and haughtiness towards all the idols, I attempt to defeat them all, cut out their feet from under them, make them all fall down, but the one Foe I can not defeat, the one I can not undercut, outwit, or defy, is the one who has surrendered my will, who fetters me and binds me, who I belong to as a slave and only ever as a slave, even if I am in the garb of a King or given an immense dominion, Allah is the one I can't kill, I can't stab, I can't puncture, I can't make bleed, I can't dismember, I can't gouge, I can't disembowel and make its innards spill out like I do to all concepts like "Justice" or whatever idols people may take as binding Allah or partners with Allah. Allah is my life, is my death, is my path, is my destination, is my place, is my portion, is my habit, is my provision, and Allah is sufficient for me, Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds. The Enemy to some, The Friend to any.
I invite you to my religion, my practice, my thinking, my way, as it is in my opinion, the most pristine Islam you will find, so pristine, so pure in thinking, that you will never risk shirk Insha'Allah.
Such a Surrender indeed gives tremendous peace and relief, you will find in it no fear other than the fear of Allah alone, and that is a fear that can also come coupled with joy unbounded, all from Allah, the provider, the divider.
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Sorry about that. I wasn't inspecting the ayat because I thought its useless to wonder about who is going to hell. My understanding is that the wicked is the one who knows that he is doing something wrong. He is fully aware of it. But someone who has no idea about his own mistakes isn't exactly wicked.
No problem bro. I will surely email or message you when I have questions. )
Peace reel (huruf, mof),
I think you've both touched down on things which I've pondered on.
I do actually understand that if someone isn't aware they are doing wrong, then they can't exactly be wicked (though they can be wrongdoers?...).
From everything I've read in the Qur'an through and through, these people who "say" certain things that are "wrong" are usually stubborn and want to promote their own "religion" and "beliefs" into the land, spreading information that they are misguided on but knowing that this will cause harm and rebel against the creator (essentially rebelling against the attributes of the creator I.e. they will oppress etc). This I believe is wrong. Someone can read the Quran and choose not to believe it. To my understanding, this is actually seen as a good thing (to not believe everything it says) because you are asked to search creation and use logic and reason, then you will understand if the Qur'an is the God's words or not and by doing this, it will become apparent that they are. There will be some things you might not agree with but it's due to the misinterpretation which you will eventually reevaluate and study to enlighten your mind and widen your knowledge and increase your wisdom. God discredits those who just "believe" whatever you hear, contrary to traditional Muslims who say the quranic words are holy and its unnecessary to know what it all means (-___-). From what I can see, people who refuse to let go of saying something (where these people are actually rejectors outright) without using logic and reason is a bad thing. I believe a punishment essentially has to be inflicted of some sort because we HAVE the faculties to comprehend and decide if our current understanding is correct. For example, say I served a plank of wood. I kept talking to it n praying to it and thinking it's super duper uber special. If I use my logic and reason, I would realise this is not the case. I reckon if you use your logic and reason to the best of your ability, then you cent really go wrong tbh.
Huruf, you speak of guaranteed falseness. What do you mean by this?
Also, you compare this where someone is taking arsenic and slowly killing themselves. Does this person know arsenic is wrong for them and continues taking it. That is the question because if the person knows it's wrong and intakes it, that's transgressing. But most people with specific relations to God and other gods is not going to take that illusion away from you, so it hinders your learning and mind expansion.... But huruf let me know what guaranteed false means.
peace
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I didn't mean to suggest you have an ego, my ego is possibly way bigger than that ego of everyone, the ego thing was a general statement to anyone reading the post, about being too proud to surrender and really thinking they are "partners" with Allah, that they create things, that they decide things, that they have a will alongside Allah's will.
It appeared you were very careful to not mention above that Allah is the one who decides who is guided or who goes astray, but said instead that Allah "knows" rather than that Allah directly makes it so or wills it, which is what the Qur'an seems to say repeatedly, as I've shown at various times which you can read in my post collection.
I would say that it is some kind of ego attachment that people insist they have power when Allah alone has power, the will is Allah's not our will, even your life is from Allah and by Allah you live. I didn't mean that you are an egotistical or arrogant person.
I will say that I am very egotistical, I am very proud, I stand with arrogance and haughtiness towards all the idols, I attempt to defeat them all, cut out their feet from under them, make them all fall down, but the one Foe I can not defeat, the one I can not undercut, outwit, or defy, is the one who has surrendered my will, who fetters me and binds me, who I belong to as a slave and only ever as a slave, even if I am in the garb of a King or given an immense dominion, Allah is the one I can't kill, I can't stab, I can't puncture, I can't make bleed, I can't dismember, I can't gouge, I can't disembowel and make its innards spill out like I do to all concepts like "Justice" or whatever idols people may take as binding Allah or partners with Allah. Allah is my life, is my death, is my path, is my destination, is my place, is my portion, is my habit, is my provision, and Allah is sufficient for me, Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds. The Enemy to some, The Friend to any.
I invite you to my religion, my practice, my thinking, my way, as it is in my opinion, the most pristine Islam you will find, so pristine, so pure in thinking, that you will never risk shirk Insha'Allah.
Such a Surrender indeed gives tremendous peace and relief, you will find in it no fear other than the fear of Allah alone, and that is a fear that can also come coupled with joy unbounded, all from Allah, the provider, the divider.
I know you were not suggesting anything I was just making a point. Does it matter if I didn't mention that Allah guides and Allah leads astray? Lol of course, if you think about it, God guides us and leads us astray by making the different paths we take available which will result in good or not so good. God knows everything, and if we speak with our creator and connect within ourselves, then we can make the right choices or the wrong choices and this is what I believe is meant by Allah guiding and misguiding.
I admit I do not like how you "invite" me to your religion and way of thinking. I am quite happy with the faculties that God has provided me and I do not need your way of thinking or anyone else's but my way of thinking that is guided by the ultimate designer at every turn. My creator is my creator who will help me understand and be in a state of peace. You speak highly of yourself to say your way is very "pristine", I hope you are not coming near arrogance either. No one knows God's true interpretation so we can't exactly say our system is perfect. To me is my system and to you is yours, but a healthy debate and agreements that the creator is the most powerful is always nice ).
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I know you were not suggesting anything I was just making a point. Does it matter if I didn't mention that Allah guides and Allah leads astray? Lol of course, if you think about it, God guides us and leads us astray by making the different paths we take available which will result in good or not so good. God knows everything, and if we speak with our creator and connect within ourselves, then we can make the right choices or the wrong choices and this is what I believe is meant by Allah guiding and misguiding.
I admit I do not like how you "invite" me to your religion and way of thinking. I am quite happy with the faculties that God has provided me and I do not need your way of thinking or anyone else's but my way of thinking that is guided by the ultimate designer at every turn. My creator is my creator who will help me understand and be in a state of peace. You speak highly of yourself to say your way is very "pristine", I hope you are not coming near arrogance either. No one knows God's true interpretation so we can't exactly say our system is perfect. To me is my system and to you is yours, but a healthy debate and agreements that the creator is the most powerful is always nice ).
Do you remember my speech was all about arrogance and how I am arrogant? I was doing that on purpose lol, to demonstrate. Though the point behind even that was that how a person sounds or appears isn't as important as what is being said and if it is true or not.
Here is an email I sent just a moment ago, take no offense at it, but I mention something in it that I will also put in bold
Allah has comforted me with your approval of what I say. You are the only one out of all those people who Allah has allowed to acknowledge the statements, and I am extremely grateful for that.
We are both witnesses to the huge blasphemies they are saying unwittingly, saying that they don't believe in the "God of FreedomStands" and denying the powers of Allah, attributing partners. None of them are allowed to see or surrender it seems, but Allah could easily make them see or surrender, but in the meantime we are made to witness it all too, and hopefully we will realize what a great favor Allah has bestowed upon us that he has given us understanding that they can't even accept, I show them right to their faces all these things, all these verses even, and they act like they can't even see it or ignore what it says. One guy that Allah has humorously named "Man of Faith" is denying miracles of Allah, another called Samira (I am reminded of the name Samiri from the Qur'an) is saying that she doesn't want to believe in such a God and is only ever attracted to any aspect of it that is "duality" or "polarity" when Allah is not bound to anything, not bound even to "balance" which is also in the control of Allah, not that Allah must do equal of one thing and then has the compulsion to do the opposite in equal amounts, Allah can make a thing completely one way, or unbalanced, and they are making "Justice" "Balance" and all these things partners with Allah in power, saying that such things could have power over Allah. It is even mentioned in the Qur'an
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And We have placed coverings on their hearts and a heaviness in their ears lest they understand it, and when you mention your Lord alone in the Quran they turn their backs in aversion.
We know best what they listen to when they listen to you, and when they take counsel secretly, when the unjust say You follow only a man deprived of reason.
See what similitudes they coin for thee, and thus are all astray, and cannot find a road!
And they say When we are bones and fragments, shall we forsooth, be raised up as a new creation?
Say Should you be rocks or iron,
Or some other creature of those which are too hard (to receive life) in your minds! But they will say Who will return us? Say Who created you at first. Still they will shake their heads at you and say When will it be? Say It may be near.(It certainly is near, because for anyone who dies, the experience of non-existence and non-information is entirely skipped, and the next thing they experience after information, is information again, all the non-information is skipped, which it says right after)
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A day when He will call you and ye will answer with His praise, and ye will think that ye have tarried but a little while.
And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely the Shaitan sows dissensions among them; surely the Shaitan is an open enemy to man.3055
And when the Last Hour dawns, those who had been lost in sin will swear that they had not tarried longer than an hour thus were they wont to delude themselves !
But those who were endowed with knowledge and faith will say ?Indeed, you have been tardy in what God has revealed, until the Day of Resurrection this, then, is the Day of Resurrection but you - you were determined not to know it!
But on that day their excuse shall not profit those who were unjust, nor shall they be regarded with goodwill.
AND, INDEED, We have propounded unto men all kinds of parables in this Qur?an. But thus it is if thou approach them with any message, those who are bent on denying the truth are sure to say, ?You are but making false claims!?
Thus doth Allah seal the hearts of those who know not.
Therefore be patient; surely the promise of Allah is true and let not those who have no certainty hold you in light estimation.1819
And in like manner We awakened them that they might question one another. A speaker from among them said How long have ye tarried? They said We have tarried a day or some part of a day, (Others) said Your Lord best knoweth what ye have tarried. Now send one of you with this your silver coin unto the city, and let him see what food is purest there and bring you a supply thereof. Let him be courteous and let no man know of you.2258
Bethink thee of him who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom; how, when Abraham said My Lord is He Who giveth life and causeth death, he answered I give life and cause death. Abraham said Lo! Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East, so do thou cause it to come up from the West. Thus was the disbeliever abashed. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
Or (bethink thee of) the like of him who, passing by a township which had fallen into utter ruin, exclaimed How shall Allah give this township life after its death? And Allah made him die a hundred years, then brought him back to life. He said How long hast thou tarried? (The man) said I have tarried a day or part of a day. (He) said Nay, but thou hast tarried for a hundred years. Just look at thy food and drink which have not rotted! Look at thine ass! And, that We may make thee a token unto mankind, look at the bones, how We adjust them and then cover them with flesh! And when (the matter) became clear unto him, he said I know now that Allah is Able to do all things. -
Freedomstands,
I advise you not to talk behind someone's back in a manner like that and accuse them of saying they have no connection to God because what do you know about that?
It could be that I found a much better interpretation than you have. And you did not think at all regarding the jinn discussion when I talked about Solomon and the jinn who suggested that he could bring down the dominion of the queen before he could stand up.
What is better? To have God as a distant object or be assimilated with it like according to "I am in the Creator and the Creator is in me" in Jesus manner and behave accordingly?
What is Paganism? It is breaking rule number two of the 'Commandments' and assigning God to an image of something which is untrue. It is Paganism even if the God happens to be called Allah and it is alleged monotheism.Because you cannot understand my words you go around backbiting me?
What kind of nearness to God is that testament to?
Have faith
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And what kind of miracles is it that I deny? Some superstitious idea regarding a kind of invisible entity living side by side humans when it clearly is not so?
Why do you say I humorously call myself man of faith since I honestly have a huge faith in my Sustainer. Am I a disbeliever according to you because I do not believe in lies or according to your will?
Have faith
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And what kind of miracles is it that I deny? Some superstitious idea regarding a kind of invisible entity living side by side humans when it clearly is not so?
Why do you say I humorously call myself man of faith since I honestly have a huge faith in my Sustainer. Am I a disbeliever according to you because I do not believe in lies or according to your will?
Have faith
I don't know if you're a disbeliever or not. Tell me about your faith and where your interpretation comes from? I can answer that though, it comes from God, as does mine, yet they differ? So it is that Allah creates what Allah wills.
Now to speak candidly
Dude, I did not mean to talk behind your back or insult you. Your name is humorous to me, "Man of Faith", just like my name is humorous to me "FreedomStands", lol forgive me for having a sense of humor and irony.
You are called "Man of Faith", but I don't even know what that means.
Allow me to talk about myself I have absolutely no faith, as in "blind faith", I make up things out of nowhere, and I do not "trust" that Allah will do this or that. This faithlessness (I guess I would be classified as a jinn perhaps? A shaitan at most? By your understanding of the term, which is based on what? The Hebrew word "Gen" there isn't a Hebrew word "Gen" from which the word "Gentile" comes from, the word "Gentile" is not a Hebrew word at all, nor does it have a Hebrew etymology, it is from a different language family all together, the Hebrew root GNN is the same as JNN, and even you can take the actual root of the word and continue to say it means "faithless" or "hidden from the truth" so I was only trying to help you, I wasn't making up what I was saying.) comes from understanding Allah as the only power and will operating, the only driving force, the only creator, creator of everything, even our thoughts, who experiences what, all are the creations created by Allah, we create nothing of our own. So I do not have "faith" as in some "trust" or "guarantee" that Allah will certainly give me whatever I desire or I will end up where I may seem to want to go, nor do I trust that Allah's deception on me is not such that I am saying everything wrong.
Your name is ironic and funny to me, because I believe your name, I believe you do have some "faith", like the "faith" in your interpretation of things regardless of evidence I show you, and that you believe strongly that there are no jinn race, despite what I might say or show you from the Qur'an or other evidence. So I'm not trying to make fun of you like "man of faith has no faith", no, you are the one with "faith", I am the one without faith, I am the one who is not spiritual in the least bit, I am the one who does not believe in any God that is bound by promises or the God that you say leaves things to run around on their own. I am the jinn according to your explanation of the meaning of the word, based on strange and incorrect etymology and dancing around what the Qur'an says, the "Muslim Jinn" as mentioned in the Qur'an, and I know full well that it may be Hell that is my destination, and that you in your belief that you can will something of your own, may be able to will your way to paradise.
So please don't misunderstand me. Maybe Allah has not bestowed upon you a sense of humor that can find anything funny about your name, but I find your name funny and amusing, and I always enjoyed it and how it seems ironic to me in relation to your statements. What is the big deal? My name is ironic to me too!
Samira has a funny name to me too, it reminds me of Samiri, that is not saying she is "making a golden calf", but haha, maybe she is! Allah is the maker of all humor and jokes and laughter and senses of humor, all these are Allah's creations.
The miracles you appeared to deny were the speech of ants and birds, besides the creation of the jinn (which is not what I was totally referring to in that case). You appear to scoff at them as if Allah can't do it? I don't know, I try to show you that Allah certainly can do it, and even says so.
I do not think you are a disbeliever in God, per say, but that you may believe in a different God than me perhaps.
You see, I worship the Lord of Evil, just like a Jinn would do, right? I Worship the Binder, the one who fetters, I am the slave of the great and only Daemon (divider of fortunes).
Allah makes me happy at your speech and actions, and Allah makes me frustrated by your speech and actions.
I think somewhere you implied you don't even worship or don't perform it in the usual way and don't face Mecca and believe you can make your way to paradise through good deeds by your own will and power? That is a somewhat different system than mine, but I would like to learn about your system. I liked to ask you about the whole spirituality thing, I want to learn from you, but I do dislike false etymology, and I was trying to help you so that you don't say things which can't be backed up, like the "gen" and "gentile" being Hebrew terms from the Hebrew language family.
Even though I'm a devil, having no faith whatsoever that Allah will do whatever I please, and possibly have a "broken soul", I hope that you can assist me in learning, but also to pay attention to what I write and say.
Don't be offended by my humor or my amusement, as the cackling of a jinn is a reflex of perhaps my ignorance.
I actually don't know where I backbit you, but I'm sorry if I did any such thing. I do not think you are a disbeliever.
Even now your words are funny to me, like when you say "What is better? To have God as a distant object or be assimilated with it"
Do you really think it is me promoting the idea of a distant creator, or that the one who said something to the effect of God sits back and lets a simulation run, is talking about a distant creator?
Do you really think it is me promoting distance, when I am saying everything is being controlled by God, there is only the will of God, and you quoted "I am in the Creator and the Creator is in me" as if that is not what I have been saying repeatedly? How can that not be seen as highly ironic and very funny?
That is why I invite you to read my posts, because it almost seems as though you have not been reading my devilry on this website, and you should, so you can bring me into the light perhaps, by your will.
If Darkness is made to mean the total lack of information, what is not made of information, and light is made to mean information, I am a servant of Darkness, the Darkness which manifests the Light and encompasses it and controls it.
Do you really think that I am saying of God what is not true? That is why I implore you to read what I write and show me what I say is not true so I can join you in the ethereal realms, unless you don't want my incessant humor to be there with you.
I also find the whole "harmony" and "have faith" thing to be funny, I am not mocking you, I find it funny, big deal, its just funny how you say it so often almost like a standard ritual much of the time.
I am not backbiting you, I'm saying it to your face what I am saying, so that everyone can see it, and even in private if I mention this character "Man of Faith", my intention is not to backbite you, because I'll happily say it to your face, because its innocent, its not like I'm plotting against you or something, I've come here to learn about your religion, and its great if you learn about mine.
I will be posting something which explains more about me, and my arrogance, and it will sound arrogant perhaps.
I am unashamed and unafraid of all those things people are often concerned about, like seeming arrogant or proud or "seeming" anyway.
I don't mind playing into those perceptions, and speaking about "FreedomStands" and making some big character out of "FreedomStands" because it is all very humorous to me.
I was so entertained by Samira's posts that called it "God of FreedomStands" haha its like making this whole thing into a cool movie, I love it.
I want people to come and duel with the big bad monster FreedomStands and his God of Evil.
Its fun! Oh you "servants of the Light". Come and face the "jinn" "according perhaps to the definition of Man of Faith based on what appears to be faulty etymology" and his religion of Realizing the Surrender.
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Peace reel (huruf, mof),
I think you've both touched down on things which I've pondered on.
I do actually understand that if someone isn't aware they are doing wrong, then they can't exactly be wicked (though they can be wrongdoers?...).
From everything I've read in the Qur'an through and through, these people who "say" certain things that are "wrong" are usually stubborn and want to promote their own "religion" and "beliefs" into the land, spreading information that they are misguided on but knowing that this will cause harm and rebel against the creator (essentially rebelling against the attributes of the creator I.e. they will oppress etc). This I believe is wrong. Someone can read the Quran and choose not to believe it. To my understanding, this is actually seen as a good thing (to not believe everything it says) because you are asked to search creation and use logic and reason, then you will understand if the Qur'an is the God's words or not and by doing this, it will become apparent that they are. There will be some things you might not agree with but it's due to the misinterpretation which you will eventually reevaluate and study to enlighten your mind and widen your knowledge and increase your wisdom. God discredits those who just "believe" whatever you hear, contrary to traditional Muslims who say the quranic words are holy and its unnecessary to know what it all means (-___-). From what I can see, people who refuse to let go of saying something (where these people are actually rejectors outright) without using logic and reason is a bad thing. I believe a punishment essentially has to be inflicted of some sort because we HAVE the faculties to comprehend and decide if our current understanding is correct. For example, say I served a plank of wood. I kept talking to it n praying to it and thinking it's super duper uber special. If I use my logic and reason, I would realise this is not the case. I reckon if you use your logic and reason to the best of your ability, then you cent really go wrong tbh.
Huruf, you speak of guaranteed falseness. What do you mean by this?
Also, you compare this where someone is taking arsenic and slowly killing themselves. Does this person know arsenic is wrong for them and continues taking it. That is the question because if the person knows it's wrong and intakes it, that's transgressing. But most people with specific relations to God and other gods is not going to take that illusion away from you, so it hinders your learning and mind expansion.... But huruf let me know what guaranteed false means.
peace
I'm curious to see what others make of my above post ).
PS bravo FreedomStands. You try to create humour by writing which is difficult to do - I do not understand humour or jokes too well when it comes to the internet unless someone adds a bunch of emotions to their post like yeah elektro ignore etc .
Anyway... Hopefully we can get back to the subject at hand of distinguishing those who purposely reject whilst KNOWING the truth and those who reject whilst not knowing the truth (I.e. ignorance).
peace
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I am not going to reply to that pile of disguised sarcasm and rhetorical writing to gain favor.
You call yourself jinn and not me. I cannot judge whether you are a jinn or not based upon as little I know about you and what efforts you have put forth to prove your points.
Faith is just what it is, faith helps a man a long way. But faith is not accepting things from right to left without verifying arguments carefully and have the generally called "critical approach" and faith is also to be able to accept the nothing that anything can be wrong. The motto could as well be "everything is possible, nothing is impossible". That has at least been my motto for the past ten years and it is healthy because it both helps one's thinking to wander outside of the box and also be critical that something can be wrong even if so every single person on Earth except yourself speak against you in their delusion that something is right.
Faith will be to no avail unless one uses knowledge and wisdom however. Wisdom is crucial and the only way to get there is to struggle hard to be unbiased. One example of a fallacy is when you take Quran and you wholeheartedly accept it as the word of God, but you blindly accept whatever interpretation people come up with or what dictionary source you can get your hands on. This is not the right approach. And I see you fell into this trap and you are being sarcastic to me.
Salaam
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I am not going to reply to that pile of disguised sarcasm and rhetorical writing to gain favor.
You call yourself jinn and not me. I cannot judge whether you are a jinn or not based upon as little I know about you and what efforts you have put forth to prove your points.
Faith is just what it is, faith helps a man a long way. But faith is not accepting things from right to left without verifying arguments carefully and have the generally called "critical approach" and faith is also to be able to accept the nothing that anything can be wrong. The motto could as well be "everything is possible, nothing is impossible". That has at least been my motto for the past ten years and it is healthy because it both helps one's thinking to wander outside of the box and also be critical that something can be wrong even if so every single person on Earth except yourself speak against you in their delusion that something is right.
Faith will be to no avail unless one uses knowledge and wisdom however. Wisdom is crucial and the only way to get there is to struggle hard to be unbiased. One example of a fallacy is when you take Quran and you wholeheartedly accept it as the word of God, but you blindly accept whatever interpretation people come up with or what dictionary source you can get your hands on. This is not the right approach. And I see you fell into this trap and you are being sarcastic to me.
Salaam
MoF don't get dragged into things like this, it will only annoy or put you in a mood that you don't want to be in. What I would appreciate is if you cared to comment on my previous response ). But don't get dragged into conversation that's gonna annoy you. I wouldn't participate in it...
peace
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Peace reel (huruf, mof),
Huruf, you speak of guaranteed falseness. What do you mean by this?
Also, you compare this where someone is taking arsenic and slowly killing themselves. Does this person know arsenic is wrong for them and continues taking it. That is the question because if the person knows it's wrong and intakes it, that's transgressing. But most people with specific relations to God and other gods is not going to take that illusion away from you, so it hinders your learning and mind expansion.... But huruf let me know what guaranteed false means.
peace
Well, in this example of the arsenic, we do know that eating arsenic is guaranteed harmful, if you, against better aadvice eat it, don't expect to get healthy by doing it. (unless of course it was a proper treatment for something and in the proper dosage). Any hint that taking arsenic otherwise as something that could do you good, would be guranteed false.
Salaam
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Well, in this example of the arsenic, we do know that eating arsenic is guaranteed harmful, if you, against better aadvice eat it, don't expect to get healthy by doing it. (unless of course it was a proper treatment for something and in the proper dosage). Any hint that taking arsenic otherwise as something that could do you good, would be guranteed false.
Salaam
Understood huruf. It makes sense that if people KNOW saying God is a third of 3 is not good for you and people don't desist then fair enough. But how can we determine the people described in 573 actually KNOW/BELIEVE that what they are saying is wrong rather than just saying it for the sake of it. What I'm saying is how can you determine that is the case from he Qur'an?
peace
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Well we cannot determine that of people we do not know and hardly of people we do know. God knows. God knows that and God knows all shades and particularities of all that people think, say and believe.
It suffices, I think, that we are ratified in the unity of divinity and not dividing it in three (or any other number for that matter). -we are warned no to fall for it. As to those who say that one way or another, God knows and they will met the consequences of their beliefs if the have them and they are wrong. If you start a journey of 3.000 km. on foot on a ertain track, you take care to get approprit shoes and clothing, you foresee how long it may take depending on whether events, etc. etc. If you have got your data wrong, you endanger yourself in the journey. Same here. If your date is wrong, you cannot act correctly.
Salaam
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Well we cannot determine that of people we do not know and hardly of people we do know. God knows. God knows that and God knows all shades and particularities of all that people think, say and believe.
It suffices, I think, that we are ratified in the unity of divinity and not dividing it in three (or any other number for that matter). -we are warned no to fall for it. As to those who say that one way or another, God knows and they will met the consequences of their beliefs if the have them and they are wrong. If you start a journey of 3.000 km. on foot on a ertain track, you take care to get approprit shoes and clothing, you foresee how long it may take depending on whether events, etc. etc. If you have got your data wrong, you endanger yourself in the journey. Same here. If your date is wrong, you cannot act correctly.
Salaam
Hmm.. fair enough. But I think you made a point that this verse doesn't refer to Christians as I don't hear them say God is the Messiah and neither do I hear them say God is a third of 3... It would be more that God is a manifestation in 3 forms as you said, the father the son and the spirit. In fact, I think 99% of religions that have multiple "Gods" don't see them as separate deities as such. It's like they might say the God of love and God of hate.. really, they most likely acknowledge that they all form one supreme God. I don't think that believing in such a way is "bad" as long as there is an acknowledgement of that following a system of justice, kindness and universal human rights is the ultimate system they should be following. People say believe in the one God... But what is God? That you cannot answer... Though you can describe its attributes. If God encapsules the sun, moon, sea, land etc, then what are we told to believe in? When God speaks of shirk, is it really about multiple Gods? Yes, serving something that doesn't harm nor benefit you is pointless, and I dislike pagans for this, but there is something deeper as to why shirk is condemned... As armaniz pointed out, shirk is described as unforgivable. People who say God is a third of 3 can be forgiven, so is this shirk? I think not...
But is shirk something that "diverts" you from the straight path to "God"? I.e. following your own desires and ego and arrogance, strutting the earth like the unbeatable, like you have power to deceive and make people follow your own ideas, your own religion, brainwash people to satisfy your insecure needs of power. To me that is shirk, people who are simply ignorant to the truth have an obligation to not be ignorant and seek truth as well as possible, but those who cover the truth, who know the truth but speak lies and falsities to gain power and brainwash and cause corruption and oppression, these are the rejectors, the kafara...
If I am wrong, May I stand corrected.
Peace
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I call this "comforting yourself" because Allah repeatedly says those who are ignorant, who do not know, etc, will be brought to the hell fire. The ones who are deceived, led astray, etc.
You might think, "how can this be" because you might imagine it to be unjust. It is only as "unjust" as a fish being created for the sea, or a lion that eats a gazelle, it is as Allah wills it to be, just a creation of Allah, Allah is not bound to justice or what you might perceive to be justice or injustice, Allah is the decider.
So it is not known to me if they will be thrown in hell or not, but the Qur'an never says "because the evildoers are ignorant of what they say they will be spared, because ignorant people are forgiven for their ignorance in what they say" that is totally just comforting yourself, no, it is that Allah has created some for the fire and some for the paradise, just like Allah creates fish for the water and can make it different and create fish for the sky, and everyone would say "of course fish are made for the sky, everyone knows that" because Allah makes the reality, Allah makes the information, the power being all information is Allah, the direct creator of it all.
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I call this "comforting yourself" because Allah repeatedly says those who are ignorant, who do not know, etc, will be brought to the hell fire. The ones who are deceived, led astray, etc.
You might think, "how can this be" because you might imagine it to be unjust. It is only as "unjust" as a fish being created for the sea, or a lion that eats a gazelle, it is as Allah wills it to be, just a creation of Allah, Allah is not bound to justice or what you might perceive to be justice or injustice, Allah is the decider.
So it is not known to me if they will be thrown in hell or not, but the Qur'an never says "because the evildoers are ignorant of what they say they will be spared, because ignorant people are forgiven for their ignorance in what they say" that is totally just comforting yourself, no, it is that Allah has created some for the fire and some for the paradise, just like Allah creates fish for the water and can make it different and create fish for the sky, and everyone would say "of course fish are made for the sky, everyone knows that" because Allah makes the reality, Allah makes the information, the power being all information is Allah, the direct creator of it all.
Show me verses where ignorant people (and only ignorant people) are directly said to be thrown in hell as you out it...
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Anyway freedom, if you think I'm comforting myself then good for you. I believe in one universal system so I not concerned about others too much. May I point out to you that there are NO verses in the Qur'an that say ignorant people "will be thrown into hell". Your assumptions are painful. It is the people who are wicked who are condemned, the fabricators, the hypocritics and the deniers of truth lest they already know the truth but deny what is in their chest and hearts hidden... They say we believe in God, yet they plan and premeditate evil thoughts to misguided the ignorant.. these people are committing shirk and I believe they will get a painful retribution.
496 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
Don't throw everyone into one basket "jinn dude", as I'm sure others will not be agreeing with you. You can say things like, if someone helps 1000 people then God can send them to hell, but who are you to say God would or would not do that? The logical scenario is that God would not send them to hell but they will be in eternal bliss for such actions.
Do you have it in for anyone who hasn't "read" the Qur'an?? Do you see anyone who isn't a 'Muslim" a bad person? God is capable of all things and it can throw me you and anyone else into a life of eternal anguish, but we strive not to be ignorant. Close ourself off from the world and harden our hearts with faulty beliefs, that's what's going to get us nowhere. Seek to learn and we shall be stepping closer to knowledge and the straight path. Sure, perhaps ignorant people will be punished in one way or another, but they are not of the wicked people. Wicked people is NOT equal to ignorant people.
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Also, your accusations of me comforting myself are tiresome and if anything enraging. Quite frankly if it boils down to it, if someone wants to worship 40,000,000 gods then knock yourself out. I know what I am and I have no fear when it comes to my current understanding of the reading. It is but a guide, nothing more. My views are quite closely related to how jafar puts quite a few things, I saw his views were very similar to mine a few years ago. He wrote something about shirk which I 100% agree with. But if you are blind, you will condemn to hell even the most innocent of people who are ignorant. An ignorant person by your understanding is thrown into hell by the creator (correct me if I'm wrong) as God can do whatever it wants to do. So say someone who has been suppressed in a country (I dunno... Let's say north Korea) who has been taught a strict set of rules and is forced to worship multiple deities but tries to remain humble, compassionate and humane to the people around them will also be thrown into anguish by your comments - I could be wrong and do not wish to put words in people's mouths as you seem to be doing for me.
A leaf out of jafars book...
"Shirk got nothing to do with "worshiping > 1 gods".... and/or monotheism...
Shirk is a bad traits which is a combination of lies, deceit, injustice, oppressive, hatred and greed..
Even the Devil is a monotheist...The whole objective of the Quran is NOT to do "Gods consolidation".. from N into 1...
Many people here has also said the same thing.. the true God... is not a narcissistic 'being' who wanted to be worshiped. The true God loves justice, compassion, mercy, honesty more than He loves to be worshiped.
The whole objective of the Quran is to shed light / revelation to the society deeply embedded in darkness, myths, religion and mysticism...
The whole objective of the Quran is to expose the frauds, the corrupts, the priests, the scam artists and their fake dogma who has taken away so many of hard earned money from regular peasantry.
The whole objective of the Quran is to transform the society from the darkness of ignorance into the light of knowledge.The kufr are not the 'disbeliever' and/or polytheists.. the kufr are those frauds, scam artists, mafias who tried everything in their power to stop the truth being spread out, as they've gained $$$, power and influence over the lies being spread out in the society.. The Kufr has forgotten about their commandment with their own creator thus they have 'shirk-ing' from it..
The Kufr (Kaffirin) and those whose Shirk (Mushrikin) CAN be a monotheist too..!
Salam / Peace"
If you are going to criticize me continuously and mock mine and other people's understanding purely because of their curiosity of the Qur'an, then don't even comment on my thread. If you're not prepared to be open minded as I am trying to be by actually asking for evidences that you provide then don't bother. From what I've seen from your other posts, your quotes from the Qur'an itself has been using poor translations at best. I think you need to research on certain understandings before criticizing others... But then you found the Qur'an 100% easy to understand of course....