Shouldn't we BE LIKE GOD?
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Nural has stolen some of my thunder, lol, but yes I agree. Cue rambling thoughts
The thread title is either misleading, naive or dangerous, I cant tell at this point, the debates have had many twists and turns, lol.
First off, the analogies to father/son are too Christian for my liking, people may think we were created in God's image, but I dont agree, and dont see that in the Quran either. We are human, made of 'mud/clay', from a drop of semen, from water compounds, we are a creation with a purpose, and that purpose involves journeying to our Creator. We are nothing alike in my opinion, God says a few times we can be replaced with something else easily, we are constantly warned to differentiate between creation and the Creater who has the keys to the Unseen. Yes human has God's 'ruh' blown into him in the beginning, and that was then formed into the shape of Adam, but this just means we have the base intelligence and moral compass within us thanks to God. We are all still spiritually children, and I dont think we even begin to start to mature until we die. We are always called children in the Quran, we are at a very young stage in our evolutionary timeline, the next stage is on Judgement Day.
The attributes of God, that God has made available to us in the Quran are conveyed to us in human language. We can never fully grasp what God is, only God can perceive everything fully.
We can never be like God. Nor are we commanded to, because we're forbidden to attribute anything else with God. It is a sin. We're told repeatedly how people get lost in this life, hypnotized by the world, when we should be aware there is another level to aspire to, freeing our minds of 'reality' is promoted in my opinion, and getting bogged down back in 'matter' is discouraged as it leads to negative thoughts and actions, materliasm basically. We're told to not associate anything with God, especially not each other/ourselves, even if it is done by mistake, for love for God Himself, it is a sin, as there are examples in the Quran of people on Judgement Day claiming they did not know they were in error, but that is no excuse.
God is something beyond our comprehension, the '99 names of God' are merely the best qualities of human beings, to show us how great God is. We're limited in how we perceive reality, in how we think and accept information through our senses, and so it is as if God 'dumbs down' the message to our level to make us understand His magnifence. If you were going to explain something amazing to a child, you would use language a child would understand and respond to.
So basically what I'm thinking is, all the qualities described in the Quran do not make up God, no way near do they. They are the best qualities of human beings that God is naturally the Master of, to make us submit in awe. God is so great we cannot understand it, the Quran is a mercy on us all.
So attempting to gain the qualities, is not so bad, but it all comes down to intent at the end of the day, and satan is quick to take advantage of intent and turn it around. One day a man might believe he is learning how to be strong so he can be like God, who the man loves and respects, and not because he is trying to literally be like/or actually be God, but at the end of his life, he might for a second, realise satan twisted his philosophy at some point and made him eventually make life for millions of people miserable, because he used his strength wrongly, eventually becoming a dictator.
Or something.
End ramble.
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Peace be upon you Beatnik,
First off, the analogies to father/son are too Christian for my liking, people may think we were created in God's image, but I dont agree, and dont see that in the Quran either.
Isn't the God omnipresent(Everywhere)? So tell me what I can point in space-time and say "God does not exsist there". Once we realize this cant be done, then we realize that God is ALL. The God is the WHOLE of which we are parts. This is the God's pattern(fitra) which he created the people on. God informs us of this when He tells us the He is closer then the jugular vein. The God informs us of this when He states He blew into us His Divine Energy(ruh). How can we have the God's essence flowing through us , but not the attributes?
We are human, made of 'mud/clay', from a drop of semen, from water compounds,
Is the God missing from those manifestations? Or can we say "The God is not there"?
we are a creation with a purpose
Yes, to SERVE the WHOLE(God), to manifest the attributes that lead to PEACE.
, and that purpose involves journeying to our Creator
NO, journeying to change our behavior with the realization that God is within. We are told that those who purify the mind/spirit WITHIN are successful and those who corrupt it fail. So we SERVE the WHOLE by purifying our minds so that the attributes of the God can flow through our Being, that is to say that the WORD (SOUND) of the God can flow through the PERSON (conveyer of sound).
We are nothing alike in my opinion
Its impossible to be like the WHOLE, which includes the part we cant even see, but we are created on the God's pattern, and this is why He mentions to us His attributes. This is why the conversation goes from I , to me , to We.
God says a few times we can be replaced with something else easily
Yes, the God does not need us, but He uses us to fulfill a purpose that will be fulfilled wether you agree to it or not.
, we are constantly warned to differentiate between creation and the Creater who has the keys to the Unseen
.We are told to focus on the WHOLE(God) because we cannot get the answer to anything by only focusing on part of it. That is why the difference is pointed out. We are part of that WHOLE and we serve the WHOLE. BUt we have to RUKU(CHange direction) of our behavior, we were created weak and must allow the Divine Energy(Ruh ul qudus) to grow in our purified beings.
Yes human has God's 'ruh' blown into him in the beginning, and that was then formed into the shape of Adam, but this just means we have the base intelligence and moral compass within us thanks to God. We are all still spiritually children, and I dont think we even begin to start to mature until we die. We are always called children in the Quran, we are at a very young stage in our evolutionary timeline, the next stage is on Judgement Day.
Again, the God is omnipresent, this closes the subject on where the God's attributes lie, they are everywhere. Yes, we are children, they represent a clay like mentality, able to CHANGE. We were created weak, yet on the God's pattern Still, so we have to discover the pattern and allow the God's ruh to grow within us as Isa showed us.
The attributes of God, that God has made available to us in the Quran are conveyed to us in human language. We can never fully grasp what God is, only God can perceive everything fully.
Who is talking about grasping the God fully? We are talking about hearing and obeying, you heard that the God is forgiving, now implement that attribute in your life and see if it is beneficial or not, verify it.
We can never be like God
We can never be the God(The Whole) because we are only parts, but we can certainly be God Like, if not, tell me then what does your salaat order you? Is it Iblis Like?
Nor are we commanded to, because we're forbidden to attribute anything else with God. It is a sin.
Manifesting attributes is not equating anything next to the God. Please explain in detail how you relate the two.
We're told repeatedly how people get lost in this life, hypnotized by the world, when we should be aware there is another level to aspire to
Yes, they get lost in this false sense of seperation, they forget that we are all interconnected, The God is ONE.
, freeing our minds of 'reality' is promoted in my opinion, and getting bogged down back in 'matter' is discouraged as it leads to negative thoughts and actions, materliasm basically. We're told to not associate anything with God, especially not each other/ourselves, even if it is done by mistake, for love for God Himself, it is a sin, as there are examples in the Quran of people on Judgement Day claiming they did not know they were in error, but that is no excuse.
Manifesting the attributes that make up pattern we were created on is not associatinfg the human with the God.
God is something beyond our comprehension, the '99 names of God' are merely the best qualities of human beings, to show us how great God is.
Yes, you just gave yourself the answer, ou said the attributes of the God are the attributes of Humans, so why would you be adverse to manifesting these attributes?
We're limited in how we perceive reality, in how we think and accept information through our senses, and so it is as if God 'dumbs down' the message to our level to make us understand His magnifence. If you were going to explain something amazing to a child, you would use language a child would understand and respond to.
Correct.
So basically what I'm thinking is, all the qualities described in the Quran do not make up God, no way near do they
But you see, now your concept of the God has become some object, rather than the WHOLE. The signs of the God are in Creation, certainly there were faithful before this book called "quran". What attributes did they have?
They are the best qualities of human beings that God is naturally the Master of, to make us submit in awe. God is so great we cannot understand it, the Quran is a mercy on us all.
YOu see, we are coming to a barrier, beyond which we cannot speak on because we have no knowledge of it. SO we agree that th height of our knowledge is the OBSEVRABLE attributes of the WHOLE, is it beneficial to try to manifest these attributes? Yes or No.
So attempting to gain the qualities, is not so bad, but it all comes down to intent at the end of the day, and satan is quick to take advantage of intent and turn it around. One day a man might believe he is learning how to be strong so he can be like God, who the man loves and respects, and not because he is trying to literally be like/or actually be God
Who here is claimiing to be the WHOLE? WHo here is claiming to be the Creator of creators? All that is being said is that we were created on a certain pattern and we should try to not block those attributes from naturally manifesting from our Being. We are beings who are part of the SUPREME BEING. A drop of water cannot call itself an ocean, but it has the properties of ocean water.
, but at the end of his life, he might for a second, realise satan twisted his philosophy at some point and made him eventually make life for millions of people miserable, because he used his strength wrongly, eventually becoming a dictator.
How can one who calls people to manifest the God's attributes make life for people misarable? Please elaborate.
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Peace.
Its good to see more people contributing to this thread, instead of it just being an argument between me and mz357.
I still feel that this argument has gone far enough in arguing with each other over the wording of our views. As I have said before, the only way we can come to a decent shared conclusion instead of insulting each others views is by asking God himself, by referring to the Quran.
I thank Hussein for highlighting the following verse
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(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle by this means does He multiply you there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things)lets dwell on one particular portion of this verse '...He is the one...' What more do we need to tell us that God is 'the one' who is X, God is 'the one' who is Y? Nothing else can therefore be, or even make attempts to try to be X or Y.
Firstly I'd like to respond to mz357's last post, which states that we should be like God becuase he subdues wrong and restores the right, and that seems t be a good thing for humans to do . Well lets consider the fact that it is a good thing to subdue wrong and restore right, I don't know anybody that would disagree with this point. But I am getting tired of repeating this simple fact. We are told do this in the Quran anyway, and nowhere does it say it the Quran that we need to be like God by subdueing wrong and restoring right. Mz357 intends to challenge me with 99 such questions, and is questioning whether I will reply with the truth. Well mister 'mz357', I have made clear on this thread that I advocate healthy debate, so don't think I'm going to be afraid of these super difficult 99 questions which you can ask me, so you can push me and we'll see who falls . (What is intersting is that although mz357 is threatening me by saying that he will qustion me with all 99 names, he has still not be able to give an explanation as to how a human can take up God's first attribute of 'almighty' - maybe I could be a bit lenient and let him talk about the other 98 from now on).
By the way, with regards to the fact that mz357 is questioning me as to whether I would respond to his false ideology with the truth, I would request all readers of this thread to refer back to a portion of mz357's posts. Please read the first paragraph of mz357's post, which appeared as the 13th post on this thread. I would very much enjoy hearing why mz357 decided to back out of the 'quote' based argument which he himself began in this thread. (Then is it me who may respond without the whole truth?). As far his conceptions of me being suprised by as being suprised by my own argument, I think readers of this thread will have realised that mz357 has weakened his own so far that he no longer believes in the title he gave to this thread which he authored himself, so I can't help but laugh at how he's going to get me to contradict my own views lol .
Leaving this aside, brother 'idolfree1' suggests that we are supposed to behave GODLY. My view only differs to his by one letter, which would be the extra O added after the G in 'Godly'. As far as I understand, in our day to day life, we realise how we are supposed to behave in a good way, as prescribed by God through direct commands in the Quran, and not to behave Godly, which would otherwise involve us bring new individuals into this world, taking some up to heaven, controlling the universe, and all the rest of what God does. Which personally I don't think I am capable of.
I would like to speak on behalf of brother Beatnik against the criticisms put forward by brother idolfree1. It has been suggested that since God is everywhere, God is everything, and we are parts of God. Well what I woud have to say to that is that God is not something that our logic of this world would consider as physical, he is eveywhere, and in everything, but that does not mean everything is part of God. Even if do decide that everything is part of God, why would God want to test us, which are parts of himself anyway. The fact is that he is eveywhere, and when he created us, he did no create extra parts of himself, I don't think he needs to.
Purifying oneself has clearly been experienced by most of us at free-minds when we left hadith books and traditions behind to obey God, when he told us not to set up partners beside him. To purify ourselves we don't need to go on a big mission to be like God in anyway, sorry, let me rephrase that, to try and act like God. Everything we need to do to purify ourselves in prescribed by God directly in the Quran, we don't need to try and be like God.
'hear and obey' - when God tells us that he is forgiving, we obey by asking him fo forgivness to make use of this attribute of God, we don't need to try and be forgiving just becuase God is forgiving, we should be forgiving because God has directly told us to be forgiving in the Quran.
Perhaps what brother beatnik means by saying that the 99 names are the best qualities of human beings is that these qualities are what all human beings consider as being the 'best', and people would want to be 'almighty' for example, but the truth is, this cannot be achieved by anybody except God. When we decide to be forgiving or merciful, these are things which are possible for humans to do, which is why we have been told do these things directly. We should do these things that we are told to do to obey God, and not say that we do these things to be like God instead of obeying God.
I CHALLENGE mz357 or anyone else registered on this forum to find a verse in the Quran which says clearly that we should take up God attributes as an additional duty to living life in the way God has told us to. If such a verse cannot be found, then find a verse from which we can infer such a conclusion. Then we shall discuss these, God willing. I am not against expression of individual interpretation, but I will not tolerate the spreading of unjust inference, and will try my level best to combat anything like this which has unimagineable potential to divide us all. May God guide us all to the truth.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Salaams mr Natu,
sorry to say you sound like a warrior and i don't intend to debate with a warrior - that is my direction ,which i have learnt by doing it in the past.I like to debate over matters in a decenct way, but unfortunately not warriors, or people who have faith like them.If i meet such a person i have learnt to say peace and continue my own way.- sorry i for one wouldn't want to share with people who always try poking their finger in you eye.
Sorry but our debate is at an end ,but if anybody wanted to ask a quistion or two ,all are welcome,and the thread still continues for peoples views.
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I dont have much to say now, short for time, but I mostly agree with Natu, and also, I think the difference between Idolfree and myself, is that I see creation as evidence of God, not God Himself. This reality is merely a temporary construct for our benefit. The angels record our deeds, and deliver the information to God who resides outside our space and time. Wherever the Throne may be. Yes, I see God everywhere in a sense, I see His handiwork, His proof.
Its impossible to be like the WHOLE, which includes the part we cant even see, but we are created on the God's pattern, and this is why He mentions to us His attributes. This is why the conversation goes from I , to me , to We.
I dont think it says anywhere in the Quran we are created 'on God's pattern', and isnt 'We' a royal way of referring to oneself?
Manifesting attributes is not equating anything next to the God. Please explain in detail how you relate the two.
How can one who calls people to manifest the God's attributes make life for people misarable?
Its all in the intent, and intent changes when the ego gets better of you.
But you see, now your concept of the God has become some object, rather than the WHOLE.
I see your viewpoint as lowering God to an object to be honest (no offense, it just appears like that to me), something more tangible to identify with, and I dont really get the whole 'whole' vibe from the Quran. I see this life like a game, like God says numerous times, a virtual reality that God created, He can see us at all times, viewing through a screen that resembles an unrolled scroll so He sees past, present and future as well, and God is outside of it. I'm not saying we have no current connection to God, because we know we have the ruh in us, and it is up to us (and God's will) whether we utilise the ruh and free our minds. I dont see us as some sort of limbs of God that connect onto him after Judgement Day, it kind of insinuates God needs us, which isnt the case, we can be destroyed and replaced with another type of creation easily. We have to let go of such things as pride idolfree, sometimes like Socrates we have to think "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" because God has only allowed us so much information to digest with our limited capacity, sometimes we have to realise God is beyond analysis, we know what we must do, its in a reading made plain and clear, and in my opinion, it does not say to be like God in any shape or form.
mz357, I do not understand your last post, but will respect it, although I must say I've only seen a normal debate occuring in this thread, nothing bad at all. Like I said in a different thread, we all although have registered here because of a need to free our minds from tradition, seem to yet have very different opinions on God's words, and it will always be like that. This is why I think individually doing the best we can in Islam will be far more effective globally than attempting to unify under a banner or flag, it will only further create sects, when people disagree with each other. As long as a person tries to be good while following their interpretation of Islam then so be it. And debate is always recommended to potentially advance a person's way of thinking and purify their ruh.
Peace all.
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Peace.
My friends, MZ357 has pulled out the classic trick of labelling. Throught this thread I have based by views on the Quran alone, and I have abstained from insulting anybody. But when you decided to question my integrity I believe the situation was such that my counterattack was pefectly justified. You only view me as a 'warior' becuase you have nothing whatsoever to argue your baseless point with. You effectively tried to throw dirt on my appearnace by trying to make it look as though I have been answering your questions without the strength of the truth, but I'm afraid your accusations backfire when readers look at how you have tried to change the subject of this thread from 'shouldn't we be like God' to 'shouldn't we try/strive/hope to try and act like him'. There is clearly no difference between either of these two statements, the second of which you created in trying to wriggle away from my criticisms of your argument. The truth is that MZ357 has backed out of this arguent becuase he is afraid of facing the truth. I feel disappointed in having to say this becuase I would have enjoyed carrying on this debate on basis of the Quran, without formulated theories which hold no water.
If Mz357 is confident enough to hold his false beliefs then he must be confident enough to stop running away from this argument. He simply cannot accept my challenge, that is why he has labelled me as a 'warrior', much like sectarians would label us at free-minds as 'khalifites'. Instead of labelling me as a 'warrior' why does he not accept that it is not me that is getting any bigger, but him that is being intimidated by the truth.
As far as sounding like a warrior goes, may I remind the reader that all the way through this thread I have expressed the fact that I believe in healthy debate to reached a sound shared conclusion, and I have done so. Even when in response to accusations of lying I challenged Mz357 to come up with verses rom the Quran. In doing this I was not agressing in anyway shape or form. He percieved it to be so, becuase he has failed this argument. If he thinks he has not failed I suggest he comes back to this thread and continue the discussion, rather than 'running like a zebra'. Let me stress again, whether it is me or anybody else, we should all work to change our views to accept what the Quran says, and the Quran never says that we should start to try and act like God. Simple. I would much appreciate it if in the event that MZ357 does not turn up to defend his feeble position, other contributors carry on, becuase this issue of trying to be like God is too important to disregard.
MZ357 has claimed that he alays wants to debate over matters in a decent way, yet sadly he has not been able to do so in this case at all, whether he has done in in the past or not. He began mocking my criticisms by making unecessary quotations from my input to the discusion, and then he tried to stain my appearnace by trying to say that I lie in response to his views, and finally he nas run away and stuck his head in the sand like an ostrich. Then he has the gaul to say that I am always trying to poke my finger in his eye. Well that would be physically impossible becuase this hopeless character has his eyes shut to avoid facing the truth. If he finds what I am saying right now offensive, then may he come back and continue this discussion in the decent way that we all accept. May the shame be on him if he has no courage left to discus this issue with me.
I must make clear again, I remain an open minded individual who welcomes criticisms of any kind, and is willing to change personal views in the light of the Quran, may God carry on showing me and everyone else the truth, and give us the strength to change ourselves in favour of the truth.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Salaams Mr natu ,
i hold to my views - unfortunately.And you hold yours,i thought it better left to that partially because
i don't like debating .Although when someone asks for my reasoning i usually give it.
But there is this verse as well which i think we need to keep in picture
042.016
YUSUFALI But those who dispute concerning Allah after He has been accepted,- futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord on them will be a Penalty terrible.Just came accross a day ago.
Thanks,and take care.
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Peace,
I also agree that man is SEPARATE from GOD. The MASTER from the servant. The CREATOR from the created. There is nothing NEAR equivalance or even the likeness of GOD within MAN. There is none like GOD. There may be extremely kind and forgiving men but they are still NOTHING like GOD.
Peace
Nural
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Peace.
042.016 But those who dispute concerning Allah after He has been accepted,- futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord on them will be a Penalty terrible.
Perhaps this verse could be seen more accurately by looking closely at the wording of ' those who dispute concerning GOD'. God has never stopped us from pondering over anything, and what he implies in this verse is that those who dispute concerning God, i.e. those who think the can argue against his existence, will be punished. But neither of us here are areguing against his existence, the issue is different to this altogether. The way I see it, since this topic has been brought up, it is both mine and your responsibility to carry on this debate, so the truth is reached, seen as leaving an issue like this unattended could result in great divisions between this community which we are part of.
Lets take a fresh start again, and throw away any differences between the two of us. Only then will the truth be reached.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
I think we need to look at the wording of the ayat - i may be wrong however.
"after He has been accepted" what is this implying - thats what we need to consider.
Salaams natu.
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Peace.
Sorry for the late response people, my computer was ill.
042.016
YUSUFALI But those who dispute concerning Allah after He has been accepted,- futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord on them will be a Penalty terrible.
PICKTHAL And those who argue concerning Allah after He hath been acknowledged, their argument hath no weight with their Lord, and wrath is upon them and theirs will be an awful doom.
SHAKIR And (as for) those who dispute about Allah after that obedience has been rendered to Him, their plea is null with their Lord, and upon them is wrath, and for them is severe punishment.
KHALIFA Those who argue about GOD, after receiving His message, their argument is nullified at their Lord. They have incurred condemnation, and have deserved a severe retribution.
I?m a non-arab, so I?d prefer to use more than one translation. Some translations see the bit in Yusuf Ali?s translation as obedience to him, and after receiving his message. So what I personally take from is that arguing about God after the message of his existence has reached people, or the word has spread to people about God?s existence. So to me it appears that this verse is about promising punishment to those who argue against God?s existence once it is made clear to them by God.
But the thing that justifies this discussion for me, is that this verse is talking about those who argue about God, but we?re not doing that, we?re trying to work out something that we?re supposed to do ourselves, we?re not arguing about whether God exists, or what he is like. So I think we should carry on, do you agree?
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
NATU WHAT ARE YOU?
ARE YOU PAKI?
INDIAN?
STUPID?
RETARDED?
ARABIAN?I AGREE YOU ARE STUPID AND RETARDED THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH IS TO ABUSE YOU. YOU SERIOUSLY NEED HELP AND MAY GOD PUNISH YOU.
YOU PROBABLY DON'T EVEN READ NAMAAZ AND YOU ARE HERE TELLING ME ABOUT THE QURAN.
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Salaams Natu,
we can but try to understand Gods attributes in terms of basic human abilities - but note this we are not trying to compete with or be God , but merely improve our own abilities by making use of these attributes in our daily lives and if i may say it isn't forbidden if it had been you could have brought it to the discussion,this is the mildest way i could have explained this.if you accept this then we could/would continue.Thanks!
Salaams.
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Peace.
Dear QSX, I have not been as active on this forum lately, so it?s good to come back and hear that you have read all of my posts! I would very much like to disregard the differences between us, and try to see where the problem lies, and go on from there. If you believe that hadith books are correct and that my approaches to the issues presented have been biased or unfair in anyway, then please forgive me for offending you and I will pray that the God helps the both of us. I strongly urge you to cooperate so that we may begin discussion in an appropriate section of the forum, so the truth is reached, whether it is me that changes or you.
If in the event that you do not wish to engage in constructive discussion with me, then feel free to read or participate in this forum in a just manner. If you still insist on insulting me or indeed anyone else on this forum, then I suggest you open a thread in the trash section just to release your anger, that way you will feel better, and these threads that are being used to search for the truth will remain free from your bad language.
I believe it should have become quite clear to you by now from posts that my brothers and sisters on this forum have directed towards you that it would be best if you made a significant improvement to your approach. I am in no way hindered by your insults, and In case you think I am going to find your remarks offensive in any way, then may I make it clear to you that this is most certainly not the case, and I?ll bring it to your attention that I have the ability to curse you to such an extent that your fingers will never dare type ?free-minds? on your keyboard again in your life, but I am taking a peaceful and civilised approach to you because unlike you I would hate to go out and insult a person new to me, and cursing someone for their views is not what the God advocates, nor is it what I stand for. I intend to make bonds, not break them, as you are out to do.
I hope you realise that I really do not approve of your floaty arguments without Quranic basis, which many would agree is what you are doing. For what you have said to me and about me so far, I forgive you and request that other forum members do so as well, so that you may begin a search for the truth, something everybody else on this forum is doing. I invite you to friendship and healthy discussion, but if you decide otherwise and continue your campaign against me, then the God is indeed witness of everything, and it will no doubt act accordingly. I shall say no more. May the God guide us all.
You said ?I AGREE YOU ARE STUPID AND RETARDED THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH IS TO ABUSE YOU. YOU SERIOUSLY NEED HELP AND MAY GOD PUNISH YOU.? Please QSX, at least try to word your insults correctly, your supposed to say ?I believe you are stupid?, not ?I agree you are stupid?, because there clearly isn?t anybody before you on this thread that has said that I am stupid. And yes, may God punish me, because I?m the DEVIL?S DAD. I?ve got a stomach ache now; try not to make me laugh so much next time.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Peace.
I understand what your saying brother mz357. I apologise if I?ve been a bit harsh on this thread, and I really appreciate how you helped to make a fresh start. Thanks mz357.
I understand that we are not trying to compete with God, and it is not specifically forbidden to take up God?s attributes as far as our capacities enable us to (although there are a lot of things which we shouldn?t do which God hasn?t forbidden in the Quran because we have been given the logic to deduce these things ourselves, shouting at someone unjustly for example). May God forgive me and show me the right way if I?m wrong, but the biggest problem I have with this issue is that God has not told us to do this, so personally I would find it unjust to derive such a teaching, which I think is external to the Quran. The direct link I see with this issue is that of the sunni?s who try to be like Muhammad, which you could say is different because he was human, and God is God, but then again, the concept of ?sunnah? was external to the Quran, as (I believe) is this issue. It makes sense in one way that we could try to be perfect like God, whilst keeping it in the conscious mind that we can never be God, but the things that stop me from doing this are as follows
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We have already been told exactly what to do; the Quran is a complete manual for life. Personally, I think we?ve already got enough on our plates, like the commandment to abstain from lying, which I?m sure is difficult to do for many, so we could just spend more energy working on these commandments.
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Having said that it may possibly be beneficial to try to be like ?The Forgiver?, but the Quran has already given us teachings on things like that, so we needn?t have to turn to God attributes to receive this commandment.
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Although brother mz357, you are clearly conscious yourself that nobody can be God, the danger here is that many people who are exposed to this teaching may actually be harmed more than they benefit. I?m not saying that I know exactly how God will judge us, but I?m just thinking, trying to work on this teaching would make us more prone to setting up our own egos as our God.
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Even if then this teaching is accepted, the formulation of the basic objectives would be entirely subjective. So basically, we would have to try to work out what exactly we are to do, and to what extent this is achievable, for example, being almighty, different people would try in different ways, some would be righteous, some perhaps not as righteous, this is what makes it clear to me that this teaching is entirely external to the Quran, because the God says that the Quran is clear and easy to understand, which makes me reject it altogether.
I think that this issue boils down to whether we want to obey God by taking the teachings he has given us in the Quran, or if we want to do the same thing by using God?s attributes as cues for action.
So my argument isn?t that in taking up God?s attributes we would be trying to compete with him, I understand what you are saying. It?s just that I think this teaching is external to the Quran. Again, I really want to thank you for helping me get this thread back up again, and I apologise to you for anything I have said that may have made you feel a bit bad. I Look forward to hearing from you again.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
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Qsx,
Do you know what rules are? You should follow them or get the hell out of here. People that don't have respect do not belong here and I don't think anybody wishes to tell you anything, if you don't like what is being said then leave. Please leave unless you have a sound arguement against what you don't seem to understand.
Your method of abusing Natu is not going to work. What are you going to plan next? Hit him? Stone him and kill him? You react like the bad ones mentioned in the Scripture, people in this forum wish to learn and discuss in peace.
You are disturbing this peace with you CAPITAL letters and insults.
Do you read 'namaz'? Why don't you teach us and talk about the Quran? All you do is insult people, and right in CAPITALS.
If you do continue to insult then your posts will hopefully go to where they belong, in the trash! Your crap does not need to be tolerated here, they can be trashed!
Peace,
Nural
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Salaams everybody,
I believe we can try and embody/or awaken the attributes of God within each of us.
But of course we all do this for the benefit of society/others and not just ourselves/our ego.
I believe the whole of nature around us works in accordance with Gods attributes and not in opposition to them so if we do like wise we are in a way making SJD to the almighty as well like all things in nature.
I think we can all see we do embody these attributes ? irrespective of on what scale.
We may be on the side of attributes which may be opposite to Gods attribute some times , and this is when we will be on the wrong/weak side in comparison to someone who may be on the side/or who embodies ,Gods attribute.
Like if you lie or are on the side of someone who lies ?thus you are siding with the attribute opposite to God so naturally you will be in a seriously weak position.
Someone trying to create, and the other trying to destroy, I am sure you can think similarly.
Regarding advancement
In Pakistan there is a lot of bribery and the Koreans have put computer systems at either side of the motorway so people can?t cheat/lie regarding the toll taken- so even systems can be implemented to improve embodiment of Godly attributes.
People have set up CCTV systems ? So they are attributing to the all seeing e.t.c thus advancing in security by being aware to the truth/reality.
But of course they are used for the benefits for all and in line with Gods laws.
Quranic Dictionary
Abada ? to accept the impression of a thing/to serve/worship/adore
Ibadat ? The impress of divine attributes and imbibing and reflecting them on one?s own person.Hence QD agrees.
002.138
YUSUFALI (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.
PICKTHAL (We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. We are His worshippers.
SHAKIR (Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising? And Him do we serve.
Sibghata = Baptism =Religion/Nature/Attribute e.t.c; in the quran the attributes of God and his law are called Gods Sibgha.Salaams.
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Peace ?M? (Can I call you this from now? Saves a bit of effort),
I myself think that the world around us works in accordance with God?s laws, perhaps not in accordance with God?s attributes as such. This point brings me back to something I said in my last post
?I think that this issue boils down to whether we want to obey God by taking the teachings he has given us in the Quran, or if we want to do the same thing by using God?s attributes as cues for action.?
Secondly, I personally don?t think doing something bad is necessarily a result of opposing an attribute of God, I think it?s just a matter of rejecting God?s laws, which are clearly detailed in the Quran, i.e. everything we need to do - we are clearly commanded to do.
I think it makes more sense to see the implementation of road side computer systems in Korea and CCTV systems not as steps forward to work towards God?s attributes, but measures to get people to obey God?s laws, which are clearly set out in the Quran. Taking CCTV for example, that?s clearly a good thing, not because it holds resemblance to God?s attributes of all-seeing, but because it reduces the breaking of God?s laws. If even then we consider CCTV in relation to ?all-seeing?, perhaps the intentions of the implementers of this system aren?t to prevent evil deeds, but to invade the general public?s privacy!
Now we come to the point when I thought ?yeah, this is it, this it what?s going to make me realise that I was arguing in the air against the Quran, this is what?s going to get me to rest with M?s conclusion?, and then I set about taking a more in-depth look at the verse you have just mentioned. It appears that this verse has been translated quite broadly. Now, I?m not an Arab, so I would appreciate the comments/suggestions of Arab readers on my analysis of this verse, may the God show me the truth if I am wrong.
Firstly, M, I really like what you did, in bringing out the meanings of the Arabic, words, otherwise we?d be running around in circles for God knows how long! It appears that there are a number of meanings of these words, and taking ?abada? as ?to accept the impression of a thing? and taking ?sibghata? as ?attribute? gives rise to the concept of taking up God?s attributes.
Now, personally, I?m a fan of root word analysis, so I would have taken that approach, but this approach is not popular with everybody, and I simply can?t because I don?t have access to a lexicon (if anyone knows how I can get my hands on a cheap/free lexicon please sort me out), so this approach is not possible for me. I must firstly declare that if the Quran dictionary you have used is sound, then there is a good possibility that we could see through direct inference from this verse that we are to take up God?s attributes, as an indirect command in the Quran, and I am ever willing to change my views to support the truth. However what makes me think otherwise is when I look at this verse in context
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And they said ?Be Jews or Nazarenes so that you may be guided!? Say ?No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of those who set up partners.?
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Say ?We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we surrender.?
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So, if they believe exactly as you have believed, then they are guided; but if they turn away, then they are in opposition and God will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearer, the Knower.
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Such is God?s coloring, and who better than God in coloring. And to Him we are in service. (Progressive Muslims translation)
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Say ?Do you debate with us regarding God? He is our Lord and your Lord, and we have our work and you have your work, and to Him we are believers.?
Now looking at this verse in context reveals a totally different picture, which is why I have now reverted back to my original position on this issue. It appears to me now that in this context (discussion on believing and not believing) the verse is clearly talking about how God has ?coloured/baptised? some of us into believing, and some of us into disbelief, and that God is the best in getting people to believe. This is how I understand the verse, and I would really appreciate it if somebody could get a root word analysis going for this verse, as I?ve mentioned already, I?m a root word fan. So I did, as a result of M?s last post, begin to see my own position as a bit shaky, because I thought this verse was going to change the way I think, however, a closer look has shown me that this is not the case. I?ll stress again that I?m a non-Arab, so I?ll be more than happy if anyone proves me wrong or right in my understanding, the fact is, we?ll all be closer to the truth that way, but as it stands, I am convinced that we shouldn?t work righteousness using God?s attributes as cues for action, but by simply using the direct and clear commandments God has given to us in the Quran.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -