Christians will be punished and are wicked???...
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All this, is only to prove or make manifest who it is who really Surrenders.
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But it seems like you like the passivity of your faith and could it be that it shows in your personal representation. It is not a help to your salvation to think you cannot affect your fate, because you can. It is called willpower and the right path is to aim for anti-materialism and work on your spiritual self.
All this, is only to prove or make manifest who it is who really Surrenders.
Indeed it does. You have surrendered to passivity, have you not? Because you do not have to care about anything for God controls you, does God not? If you make fun of me then God did it and not you? Talk about disrespect towards your foundation.
Salaam
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Congratulations then Freedom. Unfortunately it does seem like a hypocritical statement because God is an image according to your ways of presenting God to me. Your understanding of God is heavily materialized. God is not an image representation of an object whatsoever to me so it is a kind of unfounded accusation you come up with.
God sustains everything and is the only "entity" in existence and we are part of that existence. We should be an integral part of it and that does not mean indulgence in the illusive flesh, because that is not the real reality. A jinn is a worldly person who has not understood the importance in life.
Unrighteousness is not from God. Stop humiliating God will you?
There is a reason why God carries the adjective Al-Rahman in the beginning of nearly every chapter right after Allah. It suggest strongly a good foundation.
And even in sectarian interpretations it is written that all the bad is from yourselves.
Have faith
SalaamMaybe you really can't see? I have shown it so many times now
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Wherever you may be, death will overtake you - even though you be in towers raised high. "Yet, when a good thing happens to them, some say, "This is from God," whereas when evil befalls them, they say, "This is from thee !? Say "All is from God." What, then, is amiss with these people that they are in no wise near to grasping the truth of what they are told?Allah makes you do it with your own hands if Allah so wills, he leads you on, not a breath you take is by your own strength or will, it is Allah who wills it
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Is it you that create it or are We the creators?The Compassionate, and who other than Allah, who encompasses and creates all information, and encompasses your senses and knows all your experiences thoroughly and experiences them, is Compassionate but Allah? Do you know what the word Compassion means, and what Rahman means? They both mean the same thing, it makes Allah experiences all information Allah creates, it is not an ability you have at all, you can't know what I'm experiencing, only Allah knows thoroughly the experience inside and out. It doesn't mean "bound to do only what you deem "good" to be", Allah is unbound, free, and does whatever Allah wills, creates whatever Allah wills.
You do not create the events of your life, you do not produce the information, you do not command the results, you do not command the actions, you do not make Allah chase after you, you are running by the command of Allah, you are doing by the command of Allah, and even your will is the will of Allah only, you are nothing except what Allah makes you and makes you experience at any moment
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Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Nothing is Allah! and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!7630
But you cannot will it unless Allah wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.
He maketh whom He will to enter His mercy, and for evil-doers hath prepared a painful doom.
You can't do it, only Allah can do it, and you can not make Allah do it, Allah does whatever Allah wills, and Allah is the Lord of everything, Creator of everything, the bad and the good are All from Allah, and Allah is the one who makes them do it
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AND THUS it is that against every prophet We make as enemies the evil forces from among humans as well as from among invisible beings that whisper unto one another glittering half-truths meant to delude the mind But they could not do this unless thy Sustainer had so willed stand, therefore, aloof from them and from all their inventions!
I am the one who says that God is not any information, literally no image, and you seem to say that God is a spiritual realm perhaps and that you are a co-creator with God perhaps, or can be (and even if you do not say this directly, you say it in the following way) by saying that You create your destiny, You create your fate, You create your own decisions, You will a thing and You make it happen, that Allah only supports what You decide, that Allah is thus like a Servant that does Your Will. So that when You decide to stand up, Allah make it so by supporting YOUR decisions, NO. You do not command Allah, Allah commands you, if Allah makes you stand up, you will stand up, even if you think the thoughts are your own, those thoughts came from Allah, they are information created by Allah, all events are created by Allah, if Allah wills you to stand, you will stand.
Everything in the Heavens and the Earth obeys Allah and is submissive to his will, willingly or unwillingly, there is never any choice, no "free will" except Allah who wills freely, who is not bound to his promises, his words, or justice, but does and creates whatever, and can change it in an instant.
You try to make yourself a God with Allah, by saying that You decide things, and Allah follows and upholds you and your decisions. Then you literally also say and imagine what seems like "experiencing God" or "Being God" when God is NOT INFORMATION, there is NOT ANYTHING TO BE EXPERIENCED, it is Non-information because God was BEFORE INFORMATION and CREATES INFORMATION, there was not INFORMATION WITH GOD, it is GOD who created it in the first place, and God is not made of any information so CAN NOT BE EXPERIENCED IN ANY WAY DIRECTLY, and what "you" are is what God tells you you are, and what you do is what God tells you you do, and what you think is what God tells you you think, and you "return to Allah" when you cease to experience information, thus you are nothing, non-existent, and have no experience, and that whole thing is "skipped" because "non-information" can not be experienced, and the next thing you know will be information again. So if there is an Abstract Spiritual Realm as you imagine THAT TOO IS INFORMATION MADE BY GOD, All your experiences no matter what they may be are information, and only God is not made of information and is like nothing at all, not empty space, not black or white, like nothing at all, except that God creates all information, which is what YOU are, what YOU do, those are ALL creations of Allah, every moment you experience information that information is God's creation, EVERYTHING YOU SEE AND THINK AND HEAR AND DO AND EVERYTHING THAT IS PROVEN AND MADE MANIFEST is information created by Allah only, there is no other creator, you do not create your thoughts, you do not create your deeds, you do not create ANYTHING WHATSOEVER NOR CAN YOU DO ANYTHING EXCEPT AS ALLAH WILLS YOU TO DO, so it will be made manifest and proven as to WHAT YOU ARE, and some are CREATED FOR HELL others CREATED FOR PARADISE according to the Qur'an, and you have NO CHOICE ABOUT THAT, it is with will of ALLAH alone.
Thank you!
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But it seems like you like the passivity of your faith and could it be that it shows in your personal representation. It is not a help to your salvation to think you cannot affect your fate, because you can. It is called willpower and the right path is to aim for anti-materialism and work on your spiritual self.
Indeed it does. You have surrendered to passivity, have you not? Because you do not have to care about anything for God controls you, does God not? If you make fun of me then God did it and not you? Talk about disrespect towards your foundation.
Salaam
I'm pretty sure you're the one who said God passively supports whatever you decide in the simulation, and I am the one who said in response to that, that God's power is active.
Surrender is willingly or unwillingly always the case, we are only either given the realization or not given the realization. See if you can earn your way to paradise. You will not be able to accomplish it, save if Allah wills. Do you ignore all those verses I show you?
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Please check out these verses from the Bible as well if you can
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607120.msg361407#msg361407 -
will ALWAYS judge in fairness and equality. Justice will be served, I have no fear about that.
Justice will be served? Allah will be served, and Allah makes up whatever is justice, and can change it. Fairness and equality are also the creations of Allah, Allah does not serve them, they serve Allah, and Allah can change them entirely.
These are called "partners" (which is what shirk means). The "gods" of the past had these same names, "Justice" "Fairness" "Honor" "Love" "Equality", and people would comfort themselves by saying that God is bound to each, partnered with each, that God is bound to do justice "ALWAYS" as you said, and whatever else. Thus they would feel safe with their lie they imagined, and they would not have felt that way or experienced that comfort, except that Allah willed it to be so. The fear of Allah is an extremely important part of the Surrender.
Allah is not fettered to justice, nor fairness, nor honor, nor love, nor equality, nor balance, nor time, nor any of his various creations which are all just information Allah creates and animates, just like you and makes you believe what you do.
If you find that you are not afraid of Allah, then you are not experiencing what the Qur'an says a Muslim should be experiencing (I am not saying you are not a Muslim).
So I try to show you and give my speeches so that you might refine your religion, even as I refine mine.
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Freedom,
No I do not ignore them. But either you just quote them out of context or they are poorly translated.
God supports or not, God has given respite to the beast, so people are let to live their lives. If God knows the outcome and decides whether we "believe" or not then the test is quite redundant, do you not think?
The test is where we put our preferences and whether we choose to be worldly or spiritual.
Have you ever tried to apply logic to your reasoning?
Salaam
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You say God decides you stand up. Okay.
Do you say that God makes you laugh sarcastically at me or that you lie or lose your peace too?
I find that you are disrespectful to God and you are a bit confused about the matter of God.
Salaam
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You say God decides you stand up. Okay.
Do you say that God makes you laugh sarcastically at me or that you lie or lose your peace too?
I find that you are disrespectful to God and you are a bit confused about the matter of God.
Salaam
I never said I laughed sarcastically at you, I said I find your name amusing and I liked it. I don't think I really literally laughed either, I've been silent this whole time, but the laughter, if it ever occurred, or the joy, was inside, not out of hubris.
To me, you're nothing but what Allah makes you to be, it isn't your fault, it is the responsibility of Allah alone. You're as pathetic as me, even if you don't realize it, all information is equal in its humbleness before God, none can defy God, the sun is no more powerful before God than any of us, so it is our brother, and has no authority over us, only God has authority over everything we do.
Correct the wrong things I say.
If I made some speech where I said I'm laughing at you, I didn't really laugh at you literally as far as I know, but I find your name to be funny and amusing. Man of Faith vs FreedomStands, and that I'm the one who is totally opposed to the idea of Freedom for myself, and I am the one who lacks all faith but might seem so blind in what I'm saying. These are the jokes of Allah, Allah makes us all a joke if Allah wills.
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Freedom,
No I do not ignore them. But either you just quote them out of context or they are poorly translated.
God supports or not, God has given respite to the beast, so people are let to live their lives. If God knows the outcome and decides whether we "believe" or not then the test is quite redundant, do you not think?
The test is where we put our preferences and whether we choose to be worldly or spiritual.
Have you ever tried to apply logic to your reasoning?
Salaam
There is no "test" as if Allah doesn't decide or doesn't know. There is only "proving" and "making manifest", to "prove a thing", "make it apparent", that means "creating" Allah only "makes" it revealed or manifest or exist, Allah is not ignorant or "seeing how it plays out" as if besides Allah there is "luck" or "chance" or "random results" or Allah is rolling dice and doesn't control all outcomes.
Whose religion is better? Mine or yours? If you think yours is better, then can you explain why you think that? Why do you think it is better that you think I'm blaspheming perhaps by saying Allah is the King of all Evil and controls all harm and benefit to you, and you seem to be saying that Allah "leaves it to chance" to "see if they do this or that" and doesn't control it, as if "chance" is a factor, a partner to Allah, and as if the people each have their own power to will anything.
Even though Allah will decide between us, don't you think my way and what I say is far better than yours? If not, please explain why not.
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I just said I think you were discourteous towards God, but that it between you and God. That because you give God the blame for your or others wrongdoing.
I do not call it religion but more of a spiritual awakening and growth. Whether it is better or not is for you yourself to decide or God to be mad at you if there is something that is plainly wrong and disrespectful. I can only pity you for not seeing things clearly, but I also do not see much to be wrong about. It is more about not getting the preferences right. And it is usually the conjecture that people dispute over and I reject the grand majority of them. When you have a religion then you adhere to a sect.
I do not understand what you mean by leaving it to chance. It is an illusion and the real existence is an abstract and spiritual reality beyond the nature of the flesh. It is we who prove ourselves and every bad thing we do brings us away from God while the good things bring us closer to God. It is a kind of karma system. But it is not God who is responsible for the idiocy that humans do. That is from ourselves. And should we actively choose to do right, then it was our choice. And God loves that which is good, so it brings assimilation and affinity with God as well. But this is a testing, our souls/consciousness is being measured and the losers are the spiritually shallow and the winners are those who are spiritually ascended.
But no one throws us in any Hell but we fix this ourselves. In fact Hell is rather not being let in, inside the spiritual realm of God. And the ones who failed are primarily those who were absorbed in the flesh.
And in fact there is a belief/disbelief delusion, since neither iman/amen nor kafar stands for the two. Belief will not avail a man the slightest without spiritual symbiosis and affinity. In fact it is little about belief at all since the phenomenon of God is simply very complicated to comprehend and the essence is about how much of affinity one was with those who do good in assimilation with God.
Have faith
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Salaam Sushi,
You may have noticed, the Qur'an, does not or mainly does not condemn people by atnia or religion or whatever distinction, but by what they do or do not do. It is the people themselves who put themselves in the slot by their actions and ommissions. It is not that God takes a collective and pronnounces slavation or condemnation.
Want it or not we are the heroes of our own battles. putting on ourselves a label is doing nothing for us. Or even ahdering innocently out of a sense of loyalty to a label, is going to do nothing for us.
As to what the Christians say I merely pointed out certain things, concerning the formulation in the Qur'an and concenring my actual observation of facts as I have come to known them, and I did that for the sake of clarity.
I think I mentionned in this thread, if not in another one, one saying, may be a hadith, but I really cannot remember which goes
Shirk is when you fear other than God.
There you have it. Shirt is in us, we fear many things, porbably more than God. Not falling into shirk is our daily battle. It is not something that happens to people who have this or that image and bend in front of it though of course that applies to it too, it is in us. It is a matter of growing in certainty.
My own idea of religions and more pricesely that of the anciente egyptions and that of Aztecs, for me it is undoubtedly monotheist, but the names of God, which we learn in the Qur'an, are formulated somehow else. I do not much about religion of the anciente egyptians but it comes accross to me as very spiritual and real understanding of rahma and justice. As to the old azte religion, that I am 100% it was monotheist. They had very clear concept of the unity of Go and of the infinite manifestations, in degrees, like, the had what is purported in other religions to be our earliest fathers for them, to put it in "pagan" language, which they did not use, it was first manifestations down the scale of them; godess-2, go-2, that is first their a manifestation in the splitting of two, then three, whatever number you care, and that is why, the same as the names of God in the Qur'an which grated into one another, the deities graded into one another, that is the same one turned another one under certain conditions.
In spite of it all, and just as happens with every people in the world, the tendency to give too much weight to the manifestations or the saints or the deceased prophets, or whatever, is always there. God, abstract idea of God may be too much for people to get close too and they become attached to Saint Rit, or whatever... But that I think happens in every religion, because it is in the persons themselves. Others worship their beloved one, make him or her the foundation of everything...
And I already pointed out the three enemies of the soul of the chatholic catchism world, devil and flesh, they are like a trinity of evil that many of us worship, sometimes we fall more for one or two of the three, but any one you fall in love with will lead to your undoing.
Then, there is another aspect, and it is the passional aspect. Many people may have a funny mental idea of Godness, but as far as feeling, passion, is concerned, they are right, they are compassionate, fair and just to a fault, selfless self-giving. The mental for them is not the ruler, so they in fact are right and truthful. Let us not forget the names of God. Your mentl idea may be off, but while you are compassionate and act so for others, in fsct you are fully woshipping the Compassionate, just as you worship the Ghafur, when you forgive others...
For those religions which had human or animal or things representations of the names of God, what is important is the real pressence of the essence of man, if a human representation of a virtue inspires the person to be the qualities
represented by the human representation, wll and good. I think for instance, of Isis, ?what a moving story! and what stimulus to be perseverant in doing good and trusting God in a quest for giving self for the life of others... It supposed it is an allegory, but a very moving and effective one.
Labels do not make a good or bad person, sincerity and good deeds do.
Salaam
I do not like labels myself to be honest. When i started the thread i should have been more specific by saying those who say God is a third of 3 and not Christians who are not the same. I believe fully that we are responsible for ourselves. We make those choices whether they are right or wrong and if they are wrong we are guided to what is right (other times we won't be). We use our logic and reason to guide us to the straight path provided by our creator at will. I believe it this way. There are zillions and zillions of characters that fit into our exact persona that our creator is already aware of. It is just up to us to "choose" which persona we will end up in as the creator knows the consequences of becoming whichever persona we may choose. We have a choice in that respect. It's a bit like the tree of knowledge. The creator knows all the branches/paths and all the consequences, but it is up to us to choose which path to take. Of course the creator knows the consequences of our actions because it knows all path endings and it knows all paths and possibilities too which means it KNOWS what we are going to do. We don't, we make our choices based on our own accord. It's pretty simple. It explains why the creator speaks of the fact that it has created a "hell"/fire/illusion (whichever way you wish to translate it) because it KNOWS there will be people who fall in this trap of partnering with God (partnering with God being putting your own desires, arrogance, ego etc before God) - nothing to do with praying to some statue of spongebob squarepants or whatever... i'm sure it is of no concern to the creator either way. The point is we must try and NOT be ignorant. I try very very hard to be open minded and be not of the ignorant, to take in as much information as possible and filter what i believe to be falsities and conjecture and what i believe to be truth - it is easy to differentiate between the two as you will see that your self will become narrow minded and not be able to see the bigger picture of be able to learn new things and see the creation for itself.
I agree that it has been left down to US to determine if we are dwellers of the illusion or if we remove the cover that our creator has placed on our eyes or if we soften the heart that the creator has hardened - God is able to harden the hearts to further lead us astray, but we can choose to allow God to soften our hearts to lead us to the straight path... It's not a one way street - God is capable of all things and allows us to do so by it's own will. If it willed me to be evil I would be evil, if it willed me to be good I would be good, if it willed me to be ignorant i will be ignorant - but we choose that by seeking knowledge and determining our next thoughts and feelings from then on - do we apply logic and reason? Or do we sit and become blind to life? It is a miserable consequence and i can see why the creator would throw thoses into the fire/illusion/place of anguish and misery and pain. God knows our next step as it knows all consequences and paths, but I believe it ALLOWS us humans to make the free choice to decide which route to take - and that is by the will of God - it wills many things/most things to happen in whichever direction one takes - it wills ALL things to happen.
I would like to hear or read about the story of Isis - it could be an enlightening and heart-felt story ).
It is all about sincerity and good deeds. The rejectors are not those who are "atheists" or "ones who have not had the opportunity to be shown knowledge/knowledge isn't available to them", but the rejectors are the ones who engulf in their arrogance and if the truth (clear proofs) have been shown to them, they increase further in rejection, as their hearts harden and their minds do not wish to except what they do not like to hear.
That's why i always commend those who are open minded - thanks Huruf ).
Side not to freedomStands - for God's sake limit your posting sizes!!! I can't read all that without getting a headache at one time! rotfl brickwall and also this quranic verse you quoted
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And thus have We willed you to be a community of the middle way, so that you might bear witness to the truth before all mankind, and that the Apostle might bear witness to it before you. And it is only to the end that We might make a clear distinction between those who follow the Apostle and those who turn about on their heels that We have appointed the direction of prayer which thou hast formerly observed for this was indeed a hard test for all but those whom God has guided aright. But God will surely not lose sight of your faith-for, behold, God is most compassionate towards man, a dispenser of grace.
We have seen thee often turn thy face towards heaven and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it . And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.
And yet, even if thou wert to place all evidence before those who have been vouchsafed earlier revelation, they would not follow thy direction of prayer; and neither mayest thou follow their direction of prayer, nor even do they follow one another's direction. And if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee thou wouldst surely be among the evildoers.BRAVO!!! I think that has to be the poorest/wrongest/any-other-negative-word translation of that verse i have read to date - and I thought Free-Minds translation was off!!! God almighty, i encourage you to study further rather than quote verses that don't even contain certain words which translators have inserted!!!!!!
And no, i do not fear unless i have something to fear - should i sit wallowing in fear thinking that i will be swallowed up in a minute? I am aware/conscious of my creator at all times, and i do fear the immense power it has - but i have nothing to fear. If i do not fear death, what shall i fear? I fear that I might not always be good and compassionate and humble even when i want to be - that i fear a great deal - and yes, that counts as fearing to uphold the law of righteousness set by the creator.
peace
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Well the story of Isis, is as far as I can remember, that Osiris, her husband was murdered by Set and cut into can't remember how many pieces, and each piece was thrown in a different part of the country. Isis set to find each peace and put them back together and prayed for him to be brought back to life. Ande He came back. I find it a beautiful and moving story. In a sense it is the faith in the afterlife through forgiveness and love that does not falter. Faith and perseverance. Like all good mythis or symbols the range of meanings inspirations one can get out of it, es wide and deep.
Concerning the eternal "dispute" s to freedom of choice or doomed, I think that for the persons, that is trying to solve something which is not within our range. From the point of view of God, it is something, which we do not grasp, from hte point of view of us, creatures, it is obvious that our perception is that we do have freedom, not unlimited freedom, that would mean we are god, but limited freedom. And that the limits of that freedom are not the same for every person. Some experience more compulsion than others, be it through material means, be it through emotional means,intellectual... That is, in our perception, and we do not have any other perception, we have a degree of freedom and that degree we partly choose -always according to our perception- by learning or personally growing, and partly comes prefixed through character and other conditions.
That is, God may create whatever He pleases, but it seems that He has pleased to create in us the perception of freedom. So as far as we are concerned we have a degree of freedom, since we experience it and since we cannot have the point of view of God, because we are not God.
Salaam
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I just said I think you were discourteous towards God, but that it between you and God. That because you give God the blame for your or others wrongdoing.
I do not call it religion but more of a spiritual awakening and growth. Whether it is better or not is for you yourself to decide or God to be mad at you if there is something that is plainly wrong and disrespectful. I can only pity you for not seeing things clearly, but I also do not see much to be wrong about. It is more about not getting the preferences right. And it is usually the conjecture that people dispute over and I reject the grand majority of them. When you have a religion then you adhere to a sect.
I do not understand what you mean by leaving it to chance. It is an illusion and the real existence is an abstract and spiritual reality beyond the nature of the flesh. It is we who prove ourselves and every bad thing we do brings us away from God while the good things bring us closer to God. It is a kind of karma system. But it is not God who is responsible for the idiocy that humans do. That is from ourselves. And should we actively choose to do right, then it was our choice. And God loves that which is good, so it brings assimilation and affinity with God as well. But this is a testing, our souls/consciousness is being measured and the losers are the spiritually shallow and the winners are those who are spiritually ascended.
But no one throws us in any Hell but we fix this ourselves. In fact Hell is rather not being let in, inside the spiritual realm of God. And the ones who failed are primarily those who were absorbed in the flesh.
And in fact there is a belief/disbelief delusion, since neither iman/amen nor kafar stands for the two. Belief will not avail a man the slightest without spiritual symbiosis and affinity. In fact it is little about belief at all since the phenomenon of God is simply very complicated to comprehend and the essence is about how much of affinity one was with those who do good in assimilation with God.
Have faith
I give God the "blame" for everything. Or is it that God did not create everything, and God only created some things, while humans have created other things? Do you think the humans created technology? Do you think the humans created sin? Do you think the humans created pornography? Do you think the humans created idolatry? Humans can not create anything, nor can they make anything occur, nor can they power or animate reality, nor can they invent anything. Allah alone is the sole creator of all things, All is from Allah, the good and the bad, the technology, the sin, the pornography, the idolatry. Do you think God wants me to lie to protect some sense of ego, to say "No, you have not created evil!", I think to say such is a major blasphemy, and the height of Shirk, even if you don't realize it. Allah creates everything you see, hear, do, think. Did you produce the thoughts on your own? Did you combine things and bring something new into existence? You have done nothing, Allah created the thought and the idea and made it Be, and whatever you do is the word of Allah, Allah's decree, be you a disbeliever or a believer, that is only by Allah. So see if you can save yourself, surely my Master is the Greatest Deceiver, how he has sent to you all the ideas you have and all the ideas we have. Allah will then make it known which of us is of the right religion.
It is not you who has decided these things, but Allah has decided them for you. Allah has turned your face away from Mecca, has urged you on to reject what you call "paganism", makes you possibly reject the worship of Allah. Do you think these are your own ideas? Allah has given you these ideas, Allah has taken you away from worship in that fashion, and Allah will show you what you were made to be and what you are! Same goes for me Allah has turned me towards my "paganism" and turned my face to Mecca while the others are turned away, and has put into my mouth every good thing and every vile thing I eat and I say. Allah can feed me poison and make me spew vitriol. Allah can feed me wholesome things and make me sing his praises. Praise be to Allah, who alone can do these things. The Books say it, but Allah is the one who has made you take the books and start seeing meanings for each letter then adding those letters and meanings together and has given you this unique method of reading, and so Allah guides whoever Allah wills and Allah likewise deceives whoever Allah wills, and if you are those who are guided, in your denial of Allah's creation of jinn for example, then it was Allah's will that you should deny the obvious face of the revelations and turn it to another meaning that fits what Allah wants for you.
Yet, you talk about free-will, and define the jinn as "faithless" but do you not see that those revelations say "we have created the jinn before" and so then by your definition it is saying "we have created the "faithless" ". Thus does Allah, lead you into a trap, and catch you in a net. Do not think I was ever free though, I am caged, bound, and fettered by Allah, and you're a prisoner just like me.
So what say you to that? Even by your definition, Allah then is the one who creates the "faithless", who you say have "broken souls".
You deny that Allah has created all that is filthy in this world? Who is the God of filth? Who is the God of Terror? Who is the God of Disease? Who is the God of Sin? Who is the God of Wickedness? Who created all these things? Mankind? Mankind can not even create the smallest speck or shortest thought.
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Those whom they invoke besides Allah create nothing and are themselves created. (This includes everything)2273
O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it Lo! those on whom you call besides Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought! (This includes you, I am not saying you are a worshiper of other Gods, but that you think you can do anything, you really can't do anything except what Allah wills).7191
Do they associate with Him those who create nothing and are themselves created? (This includes you, and those who you think "create evil", they do not create it)3449
Say "The Truth has arrived, and Falsehood neither creates anything new, nor can re-create anything."2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate!2870
And He is Allah; there is no Allah save Him. His is all praise in the former and the latter (state), and His is the command, and unto Him ye will be brought back.2106
If We abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We will replace it by a better one or one similar to it. Do you not know that God has power over all things?3054
It is Allah Who created you in a state of (helpless) weakness, then gave (you) strength after weakness, then, after strength, gave (you weakness and a hoary head He creates as He wills, and it is He Who has all knowledge and power.1316
Say Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?-- Say Allah. Say Do you take then besides Him guardians (like "Justice" who do not control any profit or harm for themselves? Say Are the blind and the seeing alike? Or can the darkness and the light be equal? Or have they set up with Allah associates who have created creation like His, so that what is created became confused to them? Say Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme.3030
So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not -517
They indeed have disbelieved who say Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah had power over everything.(Are you like the aforementioned? I'm just wondering, since you do say something about "assimilation" and Jesus. Yes, we are encompassed by Allah, and Allah is closer to us than our jugular vein, but some say that Allah is Jesus the Messiah, and Jesus the Messiah, the son of Mary, was just information created by God which God can destroy. This information is not necessary or required by God, it is God who makes it and animates it and moves it, and God who can destroy everything absolutely and has no need of anything)
Whatever Allah creates for you to be "real" is what is "real" for you, and it is information, even if it is abstract, it is no more "real" than anything else, it is just information created by God, do you think the "abstract realm which is real" is existing along with God or is God? No, God is not made of anything, and is not information, and anything that can be experienced is information, and God is Annihilation, absolutely non information, completely can not be experienced, there is nothing to divide in it, nothing to assimilate with, you ceasing to experience information (your experience of information is what you "are", and it is created by Allah constantly ever moment) is called "returning to Allah" it means your Annihilation, you do not get to experience "being God", as if you will share in the mind of God and co-create, you are nothing, you are empty, you are only what God bids you to do and think. You do not have a "self" nor can your "self" exist alongside God, that is why God has no partners, All information and Individuation is Annihilated because God is not made of information, you can not "be" anything "with" God. That is why God is alone as the only God, because God creates information but is not made of information, and there can be no assimilation where you share in power with God, there is only Annihilation, which God alone can give you, and then God can create you newly, you have no power in any of it at any time, nor do you "become God" or "share in God's power" when you are annihilated, because "you" cease to exist, you receive no information, there is no "you" except what information you are receiving and all that information, good or bad, is from Allah alone, who is creating it. "All is from God" be it "the good from Allah, or the evil from yourselves" "All is from Allah" be it "the good from God, or the evilness you do" "All is from God".
2917
"For ye do worship idols besides God, and ye invent falsehood. The things that ye worship besides God have no power to give you sustenance then seek ye sustenance from God, serve Him, and be grateful to Him to Him will be your return.
Do you give yourself sustenance? Do you give yourself good? Do you seek it out of your own will and accomplish it of your own power? Does God follow after you like a servant, placing pedestals everywhere you wish to step in order to uphold you and your free will?
1797
And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it becomes allayed We will add to their burning.7186
Whomsoever Allah causes to err, there is no guide for him; and He leaves them in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.7178
Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the one who follows the right way; and whomsoever He causes to err, these are the losers.Do you think God doesn't know and doesn't do whatever God wills? That God leaves it to chance, which is "to see what happens" to "test" in the way you might understand the word based on your description "to measure" as if not to know already what Allah has created?
6714
How could it be that He who has created should not know ? Yea, He alone is unfathomable, aware!Or do you say that Allah does not know what Allah is creating, and so is ignorant and "trying to see" "what happens" which means "leaving it to chance".
Try to read what you yourself are saying, you might not realize the implications yet, and you'll never realize unless Allah wills you to realize it.
You are an important person though, whatever you do, we can learn all the different ways a person might think wrongly.
Do you have any power to save yourself by your decisions?
7188
Say "It is not within my power to bring benefit to, or avert harm from, myself, except as God wills. And if I knew that which is beyond the reach of human perception, abundant good fortune-would surely have fallen to my lot, and no evil would ever have touched me. I am nothing but a warner, and a herald of glad tidings unto people who will believe."You are nothing but what Allah makes you to be
518
And the Jews and the Christians say, "We are God's children, and His beloved ones." Say "Why, then, does He cause you to suffer for your sins? Nay, you are but human beings of His creating. He forgives whom He wills, and He causes to suffer whom He wills for God's is the dominion over the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and with Him is all journeys' end."7179
And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.1746
And We place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it, and in their ears a deafness; and when thou makest mention of thy Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn their backs in aversion.
I think it sounds like you might also be denying the physical ressurection?
1748
See what similes they strike for thee but they have gone astray, and never can they find a way.
And they say When we are bones and fragments, shall we forsooth, be raised up as a new creation?
Say Be ye stones or iron
or any substance which, to your minds, appears yet farther removed !" And thereupon they ask, "Who is it that will' bring us back ?"-say thou "He who has brought you into being in the first instance." And thereupon they shake their heads at thee and ask, "When shall this be?"-say thou "It may well be soon,2259
Or as he who passed by a town deserted by its people, with its roofs caved in, said, "How could God bring all this back to life after its death?" Thereupon God caused him to be dead for a hundred years; where after He brought him back to life said "How long hast thou remained thus?" He answered "I have remained thus a day, or part of a day." Said "Nay, but thou hast remained thus for a hundred years! But look at thy food and thy drink-untouched is it by the passing of years - and look at thine ass! And - how We put them together and then clothe them with flesh!" And when became clear to him, he said "I know that God has the power to will anything!" -
We use our logic and reason to guide us to the straight path provided by our creator at will. I believe it this way. There are zillions and zillions of characters that fit into our exact persona that our creator is already aware of. It is just up to us to "choose" which persona we will end up in as the creator knows the consequences of becoming whichever persona we may choose. We have a choice in that respect.
2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate!7630
But you cannot will it unless God wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.8129
But ye shall not will it except as God wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds.3936
Is not Allah sufficient for His servant? And they seek to frighten you with those besides Him; and whomsoever Allah makes err, there is no guide for him. (Not your "logic" not your "reason" Allah can completely fool you, and is fooling you even now, and me too)
And whomever God guides, there is not for him anyone who leads astray. Is not God Almighty, The Possessor of Requital?
(Do you think that someone can come and lead you astray besides Allah alone? Nor can any guide you, save Allah alone)You have no power, is this what you find hard to accept? You have no power. How can you Surrender if you deem yourself a little god who makes decisions and Allah follows after your decisions and you make Allah do things, you make Allah send you to hell, you make Allah send you to paradise, you make Allah by the deeds you will yourself to do, this or that? You decide where you want to walk? You decide where you want to sleep? If you want to kill someone, it is in your power to kill them?
1049
Say I have no power to hurt or benefit myself, save that which Allah willeth. For every nation there is an appointed time. When their time cometh, then they cannot put it off an hour, nor hasten (it).7188
Say "It is not within my power to bring benefit to, or avert harm from, myself, except as God may please. And if I knew that which is beyond the reach of human perception, abundant good fortune-would surely have fallen to my lot, and no evil would ever have touched me. I am nothing but a warner, and a herald of glad tidings unto people who will believe." -
2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate!7630
But you cannot will it unless God wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.8129
But ye shall not will it except as God wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds.3936
Is not Allah sufficient for His servant? And they seek to frighten you with those besides Him; and whomsoever Allah makes err, there is no guide for him. (Not your "logic" not your "reason" Allah can completely fool you, and is fooling you even now, and me too)
And whomever God guides, there is not for him anyone who leads astray. Is not God Almighty, The Possessor of Requital?
(Do you think that someone can come and lead you astray besides Allah alone? Nor can any guide you, save Allah alone)You have no power, is this what you find hard to accept? You have no power. How can you Surrender if you deem yourself a little god who makes decisions and Allah follows after your decisions and you make Allah do things, you make Allah send you to hell, you make Allah send you to paradise, you make Allah by the deeds you will yourself to do, this or that? You decide where you want to walk? You decide where you want to sleep? If you want to kill someone, it is in your power to kill them?
1049
Say I have no power to hurt or benefit myself, save that which Allah willeth. For every nation there is an appointed time. When their time cometh, then they cannot put it off an hour, nor hasten (it).7188
Say "It is not within my power to bring benefit to, or avert harm from, myself, except as God may please. And if I knew that which is beyond the reach of human perception, abundant good fortune-would surely have fallen to my lot, and no evil would ever have touched me. I am nothing but a warner, and a herald of glad tidings unto people who will believe."Right.....
You fail to understand me freedomstands. In fact, you have demed everyone here people that partner God. You are too wrapped up in the whole "God wills and you don't" that you fail time and time again to see my point, you don't even take my constructive feedback into account about your translations.
We choose our own Destiny and path otherwise this life wouldn't be a test, but I can confirm it is. And we only choose our path where God has willed it, God let's us do what we wish. When God says "you cannot be guided unless Allah wills" or "you can't eat that unless God wills".
You can put "God has willed me to..." At the start of each sentence as you see fit that I write... If it makes you happy. I know what's in my mind so I dint have to keep saying God has made me do and God has made m do that... That's wrong.
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I would think it is disastrous to remove the guilt from oneself over deeds that are not so good and instead say that God is responsible for them, mostly for one's own spiritual struggle to improve oneself.
Salaam
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Essentially I'm in agreement.
I would think it is disastrous to remove the guilt from oneself over deeds that are not so good and instead say that God is responsible for them, mostly for one's own spiritual struggle to improve oneself.
Salaam
Perhaps its not guilt that should be felt though mof as it could potentially harm yourself (or suffering with guilt to an unhealthy stage is what I mean). Maybe awareness in what you do and urgency to improve oneself is required. I and always will disagree with those who say to everything "God did this" or "God did that". It's like someone going to mcdonalds n they come back n you say "where did you get the food from?" N they respond with "from God"...= it's like yeah ok kinda stating the unnecessarily obvious here... We know everything comes from one source, should we become obsessive with its use in every sentence? Yes, if God does not will it then it won't happen, but we are responsible for ourselves and our own actions... We don't dump it all on God. It is an escape route and an excuse to give others to get away with murder.
"I killed a man but actually God killed that man". There's a fine line that has to be distinguished and its just common sense to not be so nonsensical in our logic.
The Monotheist Group (The Quran A Monotheist Translation)
5105 O you who believe, you are responsible for yourselves; none who are misguided can harm you if you are guided. To God is your return, all of you, and then He will inform you of what you have done.Indeed, it is a spiritual struggle to better oneself. We shouldn't just "leave it to God" as people word it and he in the dark expecting for God to better ourselves. Obviously if we do not try to better ourselves then we are clearly not giving thought to life, and of course God has willed it because God knows all things, but God can also will that we improve - the option is there... God is in control / seer of all... People need to not get so dragged down on how it's all down to God when ultimately it is but we are always given a free choice in what to do... Or we from our perspective see it as freedom of choice bearing in mind God is aware and knower of all starting points, ending points and the paths in between.
Peace peace
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And no, i do not fear unless i have something to fear - should i sit wallowing in fear thinking that i will be swallowed up in a minute? I am aware/conscious of my creator at all times, and i do fear the immense power it has - but i have nothing to fear. If i do not fear death, what shall i fear? I fear that I might not always be good and compassionate and humble even when i want to be - that i fear a great deal - and yes, that counts as fearing to uphold the law of righteousness set by the creator.
peace
Knowing Allah is knowing that Allah can change your entire reality in a second and make you a mad person like me.
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Right.....
You fail to understand me freedomstands. In fact, you have demed everyone here people that partner God. You are too wrapped up in the whole "God wills and you don't" that you fail time and time again to see my point, you don't even take my constructive feedback into account about your translations.
We choose our own Destiny and path otherwise this life wouldn't be a test, but I can confirm it is. And we only choose our path where God has willed it, God let's us do what we wish. When God says "you cannot be guided unless Allah wills" or "you can't eat that unless God wills".
You can put "God has willed me to..." At the start of each sentence as you see fit that I write... If it makes you happy. I know what's in my mind so I dint have to keep saying God has made me do and God has made m do that... That's wrong.
They aren't my translations, I just pick out of the ones at www.islamawakened.com/quran and only rarely change some words for more clarity but really I just select from among the many selections there, I am not translating those sentences, but they have a "literal word by word" version too and other useful resources like transliteration.
Of course, if the many verses I have posted don't say what you want it to say, of course each of those is "mistranslation" and don't worry, I'm capable of such too, to make such a claim and whatever if it doesn't say what I want it to say.
Yet there is far too much that I've posted which you will hopefully read that points to what I am saying as being from the Qur'an. You can also read in the general sub forum my FreedomStands office thread and ask me questions there, but I show the same thing.
I am not (as people generally misunderstand at first) saying you lack the obvious appearance of your own decision making ability, just that no matter what you actually end up doing it has always been God's will even though you perceived all of it as your own thought and will or whatever. Big deal, it doesn't need to become a problem for you, it is only meant to give peace to who it will give peace to and is part of the realization of Surrender.
Yes, people do frequently, without realizing it, deem themselves little Gods who decide things and Allah runs after them rather than them running at the command of Allah. If you read my thread there I demonstrate it all pretty clearly again, and I have done so here as well. Even if the Qur'an said "You all are absolutely free, I don't do any of it, you do all of it, I don't control everything, you control everything" I would not even say it is a mis-translation but say that it is false. My religion, or deen if you prefer, is this deen regardless of anything the Qur'an might say. I don't believe in the Qur'an, I believe in Allah only, and these are the qualities of Allah I am describing, and so long as the Qur'an confirms the truth that I already know, it is good, and it is the best example of all the books of confirming the truth that I already am informed of, and that is why I like it so much.
If you do not like the Qur'an, and you have to find so many excuses for what it says and you hate the idea that Allah might secretly be behind everything and is the only True Will regardless of our obvious appearance of making decisions, then Islam might not be the right deen for you.
You're already possibly turned away though, just like you have been turned away from performing worship towards Mecca and whatever else.
2144
We have seen thee often turn thy face towards heaven and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it . And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.Man of Faith, and possibly you as well, are not allowed to turn towards it, you've "forbidden yourselves" it seems, but it is Allah who has forbidden you for now in reality. I am not suggesting you may be wrong and I may be right, I know fully that you may be the one who is guided, and I am the one who is misguided.
2145
And yet, even if thou wert to place all evidence before those who have been vouchsafed earlier revelation, they would not follow thy direction of prayer; and neither mayest thou follow their direction of prayer, nor even do they follow one another's direction. And if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee thou wouldst surely be among the evildoers.
2149
Thus, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship-for,. behold, this comes in truth from thy Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what you do.
Hence, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it, so that people should have no argument against you unless they are bent upon wrongdoing. And hold not them in awe, but stand in awe of Me, and so that I might bestow upon you the full measure of My blessings., and that you might follow the right path.
Even as We have sent unto you an apostle from among yourselves to convey unto you Our messages, and to cause you to grow in purity, and to impart unto you revelation and wisdom, and to teach you that which you knew not2155
And We will most certainly prove you with something of fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient,
Who say, when a misfortune striketh them Lo! we are Allah's and lo! unto Him we are returning.
Such are they on whom are blessings from their Lord, and mercy. Such are the rightly guided.2158
behold, As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the symbols set up by God; and thus, no wrong does he who, having come to the Temple on pilgrimage or on a pious visit, strides to and fro between these two for, if one does more good than he is bound to do-behold, God is responsive to gratitude, all-knowing.