Christians will be punished and are wicked???...

FreedomStands

I just said I think you were discourteous towards God, but that it between you and God. That because you give God the blame for your or others wrongdoing.

I do not call it religion but more of a spiritual awakening and growth. Whether it is better or not is for you yourself to decide or God to be mad at you if there is something that is plainly wrong and disrespectful. I can only pity you for not seeing things clearly, but I also do not see much to be wrong about. It is more about not getting the preferences right. And it is usually the conjecture that people dispute over and I reject the grand majority of them. When you have a religion then you adhere to a sect.

I do not understand what you mean by leaving it to chance. It is an illusion and the real existence is an abstract and spiritual reality beyond the nature of the flesh. It is we who prove ourselves and every bad thing we do brings us away from God while the good things bring us closer to God. It is a kind of karma system. But it is not God who is responsible for the idiocy that humans do. That is from ourselves. And should we actively choose to do right, then it was our choice. And God loves that which is good, so it brings assimilation and affinity with God as well. But this is a testing, our souls/consciousness is being measured and the losers are the spiritually shallow and the winners are those who are spiritually ascended.

But no one throws us in any Hell but we fix this ourselves. In fact Hell is rather not being let in, inside the spiritual realm of God. And the ones who failed are primarily those who were absorbed in the flesh.

And in fact there is a belief/disbelief delusion, since neither iman/amen nor kafar stands for the two. Belief will not avail a man the slightest without spiritual symbiosis and affinity. In fact it is little about belief at all since the phenomenon of God is simply very complicated to comprehend and the essence is about how much of affinity one was with those who do good in assimilation with God.

Have faith

I give God the "blame" for everything. Or is it that God did not create everything, and God only created some things, while humans have created other things? Do you think the humans created technology? Do you think the humans created sin? Do you think the humans created pornography? Do you think the humans created idolatry? Humans can not create anything, nor can they make anything occur, nor can they power or animate reality, nor can they invent anything. Allah alone is the sole creator of all things, All is from Allah, the good and the bad, the technology, the sin, the pornography, the idolatry. Do you think God wants me to lie to protect some sense of ego, to say "No, you have not created evil!", I think to say such is a major blasphemy, and the height of Shirk, even if you don't realize it. Allah creates everything you see, hear, do, think. Did you produce the thoughts on your own? Did you combine things and bring something new into existence? You have done nothing, Allah created the thought and the idea and made it Be, and whatever you do is the word of Allah, Allah's decree, be you a disbeliever or a believer, that is only by Allah. So see if you can save yourself, surely my Master is the Greatest Deceiver, how he has sent to you all the ideas you have and all the ideas we have. Allah will then make it known which of us is of the right religion.

It is not you who has decided these things, but Allah has decided them for you. Allah has turned your face away from Mecca, has urged you on to reject what you call "paganism", makes you possibly reject the worship of Allah. Do you think these are your own ideas? Allah has given you these ideas, Allah has taken you away from worship in that fashion, and Allah will show you what you were made to be and what you are! Same goes for me Allah has turned me towards my "paganism" and turned my face to Mecca while the others are turned away, and has put into my mouth every good thing and every vile thing I eat and I say. Allah can feed me poison and make me spew vitriol. Allah can feed me wholesome things and make me sing his praises. Praise be to Allah, who alone can do these things. The Books say it, but Allah is the one who has made you take the books and start seeing meanings for each letter then adding those letters and meanings together and has given you this unique method of reading, and so Allah guides whoever Allah wills and Allah likewise deceives whoever Allah wills, and if you are those who are guided, in your denial of Allah's creation of jinn for example, then it was Allah's will that you should deny the obvious face of the revelations and turn it to another meaning that fits what Allah wants for you.

Yet, you talk about free-will, and define the jinn as "faithless" but do you not see that those revelations say "we have created the jinn before" and so then by your definition it is saying "we have created the "faithless" ". Thus does Allah, lead you into a trap, and catch you in a net. Do not think I was ever free though, I am caged, bound, and fettered by Allah, and you're a prisoner just like me.

So what say you to that? Even by your definition, Allah then is the one who creates the "faithless", who you say have "broken souls".

You deny that Allah has created all that is filthy in this world? Who is the God of filth? Who is the God of Terror? Who is the God of Disease? Who is the God of Sin? Who is the God of Wickedness? Who created all these things? Mankind? Mankind can not even create the smallest speck or shortest thought.

1620
Those whom they invoke besides Allah create nothing and are themselves created. (This includes everything)

2273
O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it Lo! those on whom you call besides Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought! (This includes you, I am not saying you are a worshiper of other Gods, but that you think you can do anything, you really can't do anything except what Allah wills).

7191
Do they associate with Him those who create nothing and are themselves created? (This includes you, and those who you think "create evil", they do not create it)

3449
Say "The Truth has arrived, and Falsehood neither creates anything new, nor can re-create anything."

2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate!

2870
And He is Allah; there is no Allah save Him. His is all praise in the former and the latter (state), and His is the command, and unto Him ye will be brought back.

2106
If We abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We will replace it by a better one or one similar to it. Do you not know that God has power over all things?

3054
It is Allah Who created you in a state of (helpless) weakness, then gave (you) strength after weakness, then, after strength, gave (you weakness and a hoary head He creates as He wills, and it is He Who has all knowledge and power.

1316
Say Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?-- Say Allah. Say Do you take then besides Him guardians (like "Justice&quot who do not control any profit or harm for themselves? Say Are the blind and the seeing alike? Or can the darkness and the light be equal? Or have they set up with Allah associates who have created creation like His, so that what is created became confused to them? Say Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme.

3030
So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not -

517
They indeed have disbelieved who say Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah had power over everything.

(Are you like the aforementioned? I'm just wondering, since you do say something about "assimilation" and Jesus. Yes, we are encompassed by Allah, and Allah is closer to us than our jugular vein, but some say that Allah is Jesus the Messiah, and Jesus the Messiah, the son of Mary, was just information created by God which God can destroy. This information is not necessary or required by God, it is God who makes it and animates it and moves it, and God who can destroy everything absolutely and has no need of anything)

Whatever Allah creates for you to be "real" is what is "real" for you, and it is information, even if it is abstract, it is no more "real" than anything else, it is just information created by God, do you think the "abstract realm which is real" is existing along with God or is God? No, God is not made of anything, and is not information, and anything that can be experienced is information, and God is Annihilation, absolutely non information, completely can not be experienced, there is nothing to divide in it, nothing to assimilate with, you ceasing to experience information (your experience of information is what you "are", and it is created by Allah constantly ever moment) is called "returning to Allah" it means your Annihilation, you do not get to experience "being God", as if you will share in the mind of God and co-create, you are nothing, you are empty, you are only what God bids you to do and think. You do not have a "self" nor can your "self" exist alongside God, that is why God has no partners, All information and Individuation is Annihilated because God is not made of information, you can not "be" anything "with" God. That is why God is alone as the only God, because God creates information but is not made of information, and there can be no assimilation where you share in power with God, there is only Annihilation, which God alone can give you, and then God can create you newly, you have no power in any of it at any time, nor do you "become God" or "share in God's power" when you are annihilated, because "you" cease to exist, you receive no information, there is no "you" except what information you are receiving and all that information, good or bad, is from Allah alone, who is creating it. "All is from God" be it "the good from Allah, or the evil from yourselves" "All is from Allah" be it "the good from God, or the evilness you do" "All is from God".

2917
"For ye do worship idols besides God, and ye invent falsehood. The things that ye worship besides God have no power to give you sustenance then seek ye sustenance from God, serve Him, and be grateful to Him to Him will be your return.

Do you give yourself sustenance? Do you give yourself good? Do you seek it out of your own will and accomplish it of your own power? Does God follow after you like a servant, placing pedestals everywhere you wish to step in order to uphold you and your free will?

1797
And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it becomes allayed We will add to their burning.

7186
Whomsoever Allah causes to err, there is no guide for him; and He leaves them in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

7178
Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the one who follows the right way; and whomsoever He causes to err, these are the losers.

Do you think God doesn't know and doesn't do whatever God wills? That God leaves it to chance, which is "to see what happens" to "test" in the way you might understand the word based on your description "to measure" as if not to know already what Allah has created?

6714
How could it be that He who has created should not know ? Yea, He alone is unfathomable, aware!

Or do you say that Allah does not know what Allah is creating, and so is ignorant and "trying to see" "what happens" which means "leaving it to chance".

Try to read what you yourself are saying, you might not realize the implications yet, and you'll never realize unless Allah wills you to realize it.

You are an important person though, whatever you do, we can learn all the different ways a person might think wrongly.

Do you have any power to save yourself by your decisions?

7188
Say "It is not within my power to bring benefit to, or avert harm from, myself, except as God wills. And if I knew that which is beyond the reach of human perception, abundant good fortune-would surely have fallen to my lot, and no evil would ever have touched me. I am nothing but a warner, and a herald of glad tidings unto people who will believe."

You are nothing but what Allah makes you to be

518
And the Jews and the Christians say, "We are God's children, and His beloved ones." Say "Why, then, does He cause you to suffer for your sins? Nay, you are but human beings of His creating. He forgives whom He wills, and He causes to suffer whom He wills for God's is the dominion over the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and with Him is all journeys' end."

7179
And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.

1746
And We place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it, and in their ears a deafness; and when thou makest mention of thy Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn their backs in aversion.

I think it sounds like you might also be denying the physical ressurection?

1748
See what similes they strike for thee but they have gone astray, and never can they find a way.
And they say When we are bones and fragments, shall we forsooth, be raised up as a new creation?
Say Be ye stones or iron
or any substance which, to your minds, appears yet farther removed !" And thereupon they ask, "Who is it that will' bring us back ?"-say thou "He who has brought you into being in the first instance." And thereupon they shake their heads at thee and ask, "When shall this be?"-say thou "It may well be soon,

2259
Or as he who passed by a town deserted by its people, with its roofs caved in, said, "How could God bring all this back to life after its death?" Thereupon God caused him to be dead for a hundred years; where after He brought him back to life said "How long hast thou remained thus?" He answered "I have remained thus a day, or part of a day." Said "Nay, but thou hast remained thus for a hundred years! But look at thy food and thy drink-untouched is it by the passing of years - and look at thine ass! And - how We put them together and then clothe them with flesh!" And when became clear to him, he said "I know that God has the power to will anything!"

FreedomStands

We use our logic and reason to guide us to the straight path provided by our creator at will. I believe it this way. There are zillions and zillions of characters that fit into our exact persona that our creator is already aware of. It is just up to us to "choose" which persona we will end up in as the creator knows the consequences of becoming whichever persona we may choose. We have a choice in that respect.

2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate!

7630
But you cannot will it unless God wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.

8129
But ye shall not will it except as God wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds.

3936
Is not Allah sufficient for His servant? And they seek to frighten you with those besides Him; and whomsoever Allah makes err, there is no guide for him. (Not your "logic" not your "reason" Allah can completely fool you, and is fooling you even now, and me too)
And whomever God guides, there is not for him anyone who leads astray. Is not God Almighty, The Possessor of Requital?
(Do you think that someone can come and lead you astray besides Allah alone? Nor can any guide you, save Allah alone)

You have no power, is this what you find hard to accept? You have no power. How can you Surrender if you deem yourself a little god who makes decisions and Allah follows after your decisions and you make Allah do things, you make Allah send you to hell, you make Allah send you to paradise, you make Allah by the deeds you will yourself to do, this or that? You decide where you want to walk? You decide where you want to sleep? If you want to kill someone, it is in your power to kill them?

1049
Say I have no power to hurt or benefit myself, save that which Allah willeth. For every nation there is an appointed time. When their time cometh, then they cannot put it off an hour, nor hasten (it).

7188
Say "It is not within my power to bring benefit to, or avert harm from, myself, except as God may please. And if I knew that which is beyond the reach of human perception, abundant good fortune-would surely have fallen to my lot, and no evil would ever have touched me. I am nothing but a warner, and a herald of glad tidings unto people who will believe."

sushi1992

2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate!

7630
But you cannot will it unless God wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.

8129
But ye shall not will it except as God wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds.

3936
Is not Allah sufficient for His servant? And they seek to frighten you with those besides Him; and whomsoever Allah makes err, there is no guide for him. (Not your "logic" not your "reason" Allah can completely fool you, and is fooling you even now, and me too)
And whomever God guides, there is not for him anyone who leads astray. Is not God Almighty, The Possessor of Requital?
(Do you think that someone can come and lead you astray besides Allah alone? Nor can any guide you, save Allah alone)

You have no power, is this what you find hard to accept? You have no power. How can you Surrender if you deem yourself a little god who makes decisions and Allah follows after your decisions and you make Allah do things, you make Allah send you to hell, you make Allah send you to paradise, you make Allah by the deeds you will yourself to do, this or that? You decide where you want to walk? You decide where you want to sleep? If you want to kill someone, it is in your power to kill them?

1049
Say I have no power to hurt or benefit myself, save that which Allah willeth. For every nation there is an appointed time. When their time cometh, then they cannot put it off an hour, nor hasten (it).

7188
Say "It is not within my power to bring benefit to, or avert harm from, myself, except as God may please. And if I knew that which is beyond the reach of human perception, abundant good fortune-would surely have fallen to my lot, and no evil would ever have touched me. I am nothing but a warner, and a herald of glad tidings unto people who will believe."

Right.....

You fail to understand me freedomstands. In fact, you have demed everyone here people that partner God. You are too wrapped up in the whole "God wills and you don't" that you fail time and time again to see my point, you don't even take my constructive feedback into account about your translations.

We choose our own Destiny and path otherwise this life wouldn't be a test, but I can confirm it is. And we only choose our path where God has willed it, God let's us do what we wish. When God says "you cannot be guided unless Allah wills" or "you can't eat that unless God wills".

You can put "God has willed me to..." At the start of each sentence as you see fit that I write... If it makes you happy. I know what's in my mind so I dint have to keep saying God has made me do and God has made m do that... That's wrong.

Man_of_Faith

I would think it is disastrous to remove the guilt from oneself over deeds that are not so good and instead say that God is responsible for them, mostly for one's own spiritual struggle to improve oneself.

Salaam

sushi1992

Essentially I'm in agreement.

I would think it is disastrous to remove the guilt from oneself over deeds that are not so good and instead say that God is responsible for them, mostly for one's own spiritual struggle to improve oneself.

Salaam

Perhaps its not guilt that should be felt though mof as it could potentially harm yourself (or suffering with guilt to an unhealthy stage is what I mean). Maybe awareness in what you do and urgency to improve oneself is required. I and always will disagree with those who say to everything "God did this" or "God did that". It's like someone going to mcdonalds n they come back n you say "where did you get the food from?" N they respond with "from God"...= it's like yeah ok kinda stating the unnecessarily obvious here... We know everything comes from one source, should we become obsessive with its use in every sentence? Yes, if God does not will it then it won't happen, but we are responsible for ourselves and our own actions... We don't dump it all on God. It is an escape route and an excuse to give others to get away with murder.

"I killed a man but actually God killed that man". There's a fine line that has to be distinguished and its just common sense to not be so nonsensical in our logic.

The Monotheist Group (The Quran A Monotheist Translation)
5105 O you who believe, you are responsible for yourselves; none who are misguided can harm you if you are guided. To God is your return, all of you, and then He will inform you of what you have done.

Indeed, it is a spiritual struggle to better oneself. We shouldn't just "leave it to God" as people word it and he in the dark expecting for God to better ourselves. Obviously if we do not try to better ourselves then we are clearly not giving thought to life, and of course God has willed it because God knows all things, but God can also will that we improve - the option is there... God is in control / seer of all... People need to not get so dragged down on how it's all down to God when ultimately it is but we are always given a free choice in what to do... Or we from our perspective see it as freedom of choice bearing in mind God is aware and knower of all starting points, ending points and the paths in between.

Peace peace

FreedomStands

And no, i do not fear unless i have something to fear - should i sit wallowing in fear thinking that i will be swallowed up in a minute? I am aware/conscious of my creator at all times, and i do fear the immense power it has - but i have nothing to fear. If i do not fear death, what shall i fear? I fear that I might not always be good and compassionate and humble even when i want to be - that i fear a great deal - and yes, that counts as fearing to uphold the law of righteousness set by the creator.

peace

Knowing Allah is knowing that Allah can change your entire reality in a second and make you a mad person like me.

FreedomStands

Right.....

You fail to understand me freedomstands. In fact, you have demed everyone here people that partner God. You are too wrapped up in the whole "God wills and you don't" that you fail time and time again to see my point, you don't even take my constructive feedback into account about your translations.

We choose our own Destiny and path otherwise this life wouldn't be a test, but I can confirm it is. And we only choose our path where God has willed it, God let's us do what we wish. When God says "you cannot be guided unless Allah wills" or "you can't eat that unless God wills".

You can put "God has willed me to..." At the start of each sentence as you see fit that I write... If it makes you happy. I know what's in my mind so I dint have to keep saying God has made me do and God has made m do that... That's wrong.

They aren't my translations, I just pick out of the ones at www.islamawakened.com/quran and only rarely change some words for more clarity but really I just select from among the many selections there, I am not translating those sentences, but they have a "literal word by word" version too and other useful resources like transliteration.

Of course, if the many verses I have posted don't say what you want it to say, of course each of those is "mistranslation" and don't worry, I'm capable of such too, to make such a claim and whatever if it doesn't say what I want it to say.

Yet there is far too much that I've posted which you will hopefully read that points to what I am saying as being from the Qur'an. You can also read in the general sub forum my FreedomStands office thread and ask me questions there, but I show the same thing.

I am not (as people generally misunderstand at first) saying you lack the obvious appearance of your own decision making ability, just that no matter what you actually end up doing it has always been God's will even though you perceived all of it as your own thought and will or whatever. Big deal, it doesn't need to become a problem for you, it is only meant to give peace to who it will give peace to and is part of the realization of Surrender.

Yes, people do frequently, without realizing it, deem themselves little Gods who decide things and Allah runs after them rather than them running at the command of Allah. If you read my thread there I demonstrate it all pretty clearly again, and I have done so here as well. Even if the Qur'an said "You all are absolutely free, I don't do any of it, you do all of it, I don't control everything, you control everything" I would not even say it is a mis-translation but say that it is false. My religion, or deen if you prefer, is this deen regardless of anything the Qur'an might say. I don't believe in the Qur'an, I believe in Allah only, and these are the qualities of Allah I am describing, and so long as the Qur'an confirms the truth that I already know, it is good, and it is the best example of all the books of confirming the truth that I already am informed of, and that is why I like it so much.

If you do not like the Qur'an, and you have to find so many excuses for what it says and you hate the idea that Allah might secretly be behind everything and is the only True Will regardless of our obvious appearance of making decisions, then Islam might not be the right deen for you.

You're already possibly turned away though, just like you have been turned away from performing worship towards Mecca and whatever else.

2144
We have seen thee often turn thy face towards heaven and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it . And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.

Man of Faith, and possibly you as well, are not allowed to turn towards it, you've "forbidden yourselves" it seems, but it is Allah who has forbidden you for now in reality. I am not suggesting you may be wrong and I may be right, I know fully that you may be the one who is guided, and I am the one who is misguided.
2145
And yet, even if thou wert to place all evidence before those who have been vouchsafed earlier revelation, they would not follow thy direction of prayer; and neither mayest thou follow their direction of prayer, nor even do they follow one another's direction. And if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee thou wouldst surely be among the evildoers.
2149
Thus, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship-for,. behold, this comes in truth from thy Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what you do.
Hence, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it, so that people should have no argument against you unless they are bent upon wrongdoing. And hold not them in awe, but stand in awe of Me, and so that I might bestow upon you the full measure of My blessings., and that you might follow the right path.
Even as We have sent unto you an apostle from among yourselves to convey unto you Our messages, and to cause you to grow in purity, and to impart unto you revelation and wisdom, and to teach you that which you knew not

2155
And We will most certainly prove you with something of fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient,
Who say, when a misfortune striketh them Lo! we are Allah's and lo! unto Him we are returning.
Such are they on whom are blessings from their Lord, and mercy. Such are the rightly guided.

2158
behold, As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the symbols set up by God; and thus, no wrong does he who, having come to the Temple on pilgrimage or on a pious visit, strides to and fro between these two for, if one does more good than he is bound to do-behold, God is responsive to gratitude, all-knowing.

FreedomStands

Right.....

You fail to understand me freedomstands. In fact, you have demed everyone here people that partner God. You are too wrapped up in the whole "God wills and you don't" that you fail time and time again to see my point, you don't even take my constructive feedback into account about your translations.

We choose our own Destiny and path otherwise this life wouldn't be a test, but I can confirm it is. And we only choose our path where God has willed it, God let's us do what we wish. When God says "you cannot be guided unless Allah wills" or "you can't eat that unless God wills".

You can put "God has willed me to..." At the start of each sentence as you see fit that I write... If it makes you happy. I know what's in my mind so I dint have to keep saying God has made me do and God has made m do that... That's wrong.

Please read this

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607144.0

and this is a recent one

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607144.msg361615#msg361615

I am not the one just making it up that you may be deluded in thinking "We choose our own Destiny and path otherwise this life wouldn't be a test, but I can confirm it is. And we only choose our path where God has willed it, God let's us do what we wish."

sushi1992

You speak as if you know me and have some kind of right to judge. Hah...

One word - interpolation - go figure. I'm done answering. I shall discuss with whoever else wishes to talk.

Peace.

FreedomStands

You speak as if you know me and have some kind of right to judge. Hah...

One word - interpolation - go figure. I'm done answering. I shall discuss with whoever else wishes to talk.

Peace.

How did I speak as if I know you? I quoted a real quote of you, and I said "may be deluded into thinking" not that you ARE, I "may be deluded" too! If you've been reading what I've been writing, I said I'm in this same boat as you.

What is wrong with what I am saying? Who attaches the "guilt" to you? Who invented the "guilt"? Who is doing all of it from the start? That is Allah. How silly is it that people think they produced anything at all. It is Allah who has made you the way you are and the way anyone is, and it is Allah who makes you guilty or innocent. Are you the one capable of attaching anything to yourself? You can't do it, Allah creates whatever Allah wants to create. How many examples from the Qur'an have I shown that make that so clear? If the concept can not penetrate, then it is only the miracle of Allah that this is made so hard to understand.

I know that on the immediate level, the level of appearance, the level of limited information exclusive to us, it appears that we are doing everything, we are deciding, and all that. With that understanding and appearance, we should do whatever good we can do and worship Allah and ask for help and all that stuff. Yet I was just showing you a deeper thing in the Qur'an, if you can not handle such a deeper reality of total Surrender then it doesn't matter, nothing changes with what I'm saying, you and I still appear to have decision making ability and should use it as best we can. It is a normal and generally silly reaction to what I say for people to think I'm suggesting somehow that they just do nothing, I am not suggesting that at all, I am only informing you of something, and if you can not handle it, then don't worry about it, because if you knew it or you don't know it, it doesn't change your impression of making decisions and having to do the right thing for your own sake, it would just give a person a more peaceful and clear understanding of Surrender and reality, where it isn't chance at all, but Allah doing everything. That is a comfort to the believers, and a discomfort for everyone else, apparently.

sushi1992

How did I speak as if I know you? I quoted a real quote of you, and I said "may be deluded into thinking" not that you ARE, I "may be deluded" too! If you've been reading what I've been writing, I said I'm in this same boat as you.

What is wrong with what I am saying? Who attaches the "guilt" to you? Who invented the "guilt"? Who is doing all of it from the start? That is Allah. How silly is it that people think they produced anything at all. It is Allah who has made you the way you are and the way anyone is, and it is Allah who makes you guilty or innocent. Are you the one capable of attaching anything to yourself? You can't do it, Allah creates whatever Allah wants to create. How many examples from the Qur'an have I shown that make that so clear? If the concept can not penetrate, then it is only the miracle of Allah that this is made so hard to understand.

I know that on the immediate level, the level of appearance, the level of limited information exclusive to us, it appears that we are doing everything, we are deciding, and all that. With that understanding and appearance, we should do whatever good we can do and worship Allah and ask for help and all that stuff. Yet I was just showing you a deeper thing in the Qur'an, if you can not handle such a deeper reality of total Surrender then it doesn't matter, nothing changes with what I'm saying, you and I still appear to have decision making ability and should use it as best we can. It is a normal and generally silly reaction to what I say for people to think I'm suggesting somehow that they just do nothing, I am not suggesting that at all, I am only informing you of something, and if you can not handle it, then don't worry about it, because if you knew it or you don't know it, it doesn't change your impression of making decisions and having to do the right thing for your own sake, it would just give a person a more peaceful and clear understanding of Surrender and reality, where it isn't chance at all, but Allah doing everything. That is a comfort to the believers, and a discomfort for everyone else, apparently.

Hahaha if i can't handle it? Mate, i'm done. You do not comprehend simple English that I am writing. The NUMBER of times i have said that i know everything comes from God and we only control what we feel we can control within our realm which is WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID! Jeez whatever man... go and study the quran and instead of grabbing translations and plonking them everywhere and trying to work from them why don't you try and verfiy those translations are correct in the first place? Or is it you who can't be bothered?

So basically you are condemning everything to be an unbeliever since you insist that it is a comfort to the believers and discomfort to everyone else? Who the heck are you to judge if someone is a believer or not? Last time i checked you weren't God... unless you want to make yourself out to be, or do you wish to be a prophet of some sort? Read my posts - I understand God controls everything HOWEVER we IN OUR REALM feel that we have freedom of choice. If you even bothered to read properly you would have noticed a few pages back where i was talking about having free choice but not free will - do you not comprehend?

This discussion between you and I is pointless though and I don't wish to continue speaking to someone about the quran when they clearly have NO knowledge of proper translations to start with! You quote 2149, hah! "". You steal that translation and preach it as if it is correct. Show me ANYWHERE in that verse where it says "in prayer"? You can't - so perhaps go take a closer look at the verses, do your research, figure out what is actually being said (or atleast NEAR enough to it) then come back to me. Good luck.

Peace

FreedomStands

Hahaha if i can't handle it? Mate, i'm done. You do not comprehend simple English that I am writing. The NUMBER of times i have said that i know everything comes from God and we only control what we feel we can control within our realm which is WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID! Jeez whatever man... go and study the quran and instead of grabbing translations and plonking them everywhere and trying to work from them why don't you try and verfiy those translations are correct in the first place? Or is it you who can't be bothered?

So basically you are condemning everything to be an unbeliever since you insist that it is a comfort to the believers and discomfort to everyone else? Who the heck are you to judge if someone is a believer or not? Last time i checked you weren't God... unless you want to make yourself out to be, or do you wish to be a prophet of some sort? Read my posts - I understand God controls everything HOWEVER we IN OUR REALM feel that we have freedom of choice. If you even bothered to read properly you would have noticed a few pages back where i was talking about having free choice but not free will - do you not comprehend?

This discussion between you and I is pointless though and I don't wish to continue speaking to someone about the quran when they clearly have NO knowledge of proper translations to start with! You quote 2149, hah! "". You steal that translation and preach it as if it is correct. Show me ANYWHERE in that verse where it says "in prayer"? You can't - so perhaps go take a closer look at the verses, do your research, figure out what is actually being said (or atleast NEAR enough to it) then come back to me. Good luck.

Peace

I don't care too much what the Qur'an says, as I've been saying, that is why the translations don't matter to me much, because if the translations said "You have power, God is powerless and sits back while you are free and create your own thoughts and will" I would reject them, and if the Qur'an didn't confirm the truth that I already was informed of, I would reject it, meaning I am only using the Qur'an to back me up as I can use the other scriptures, but what I am saying remains the same.

Why are you getting offended by any of this? I am not intending on frustrating you or insulting you in any way, so what are you appearing to get all flustered about? If you agree what everything I am saying then that is great, no problem, and I am only showing these things and saying more for whoever might read it.

Did I say I know who is a believer or not? Allah knows what he creates, I don't know anything except what Allah tells me, and that can be things that make me look like a fool too, so I didn't mean to seem to say everyone is a disbeliever or whatever you are accusing me of.

Why do you insist on saying "free choice" "but not free will", nothing you have is "free", you can't "choose" anything ultimately, nor have you ever except as God chose for you, and made for you, but that is the higher truth, the immediate appearance is obviously like you are saying, that we appear to choose and do as we desire. So if we are not disagreeing, why are you getting angry at me? Just because I am repeating and you think I wouldn't repeat if I agreed with you? If we have no disagreement then that is fine.

You and I both are "messengers" in the sense that all information is coming from the same source, even if it is wrong action or information, and we are proven by each other and our interactions and conduct as to what we are.

Why do you say that I have no knowledge or understanding if you are also claiming to agree with what I am saying? Why are you making a fuss about translations if my point was only to demonstrate it is saying what I am presenting as well?

You can freely ignore the things in brackets, aren't you aware that the things in brackets are not actually in the verses? They are usually imposed by the translators and are like a commentary inside.

I got my quotes from www.islamawakened.com/quran and I really don't care about the translations, and especially not about the things in brackets they put, so why are you freaking out about it so much? I just quoted it how they had it on that website, you can ignore the brackets always, they are in brackets because they are not actually in the verse, so why are you acting like they are saying it is in the verse? They put it in brackets for that reason, and who even cares? I was quoting numerous examples from the Qur'an, do you disagree with absolutely everything I quoted yet claim you are saying the same thing as well and know what I am saying and agree and also claim that I know nothing and have no understanding either?

Why are you getting angry and don't want to talk to me? What have I said that is wrong at all? Please relax and feel free to talk to me, I am not your enemy.

sushi1992