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  4. Do you take the Qur'an literally?

Do you take the Qur'an literally?

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  • M Offline
    M Offline
    Man_of_Faith
    wrote on last edited by
    #145

    If I am misunderstanding your kind of "Ultimate Will", why not make an effort at explaining it, because it ultimately seems that you tell people to passivity because no one has to bother about actions or deeds because it is God who wills them. Individual thoughts are meaningless as far as I can understand. The reason why I say the things I say to you is because you cause a lot of inconsistency concerning logic just to propagate your religion.

    Salaam

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    • H Offline
      H Offline
      huruf
      wrote on last edited by
      #146

      The Qur'an is for all, even the very knowledgeable and evolved ones. Where do you put a line between those who would understand many things, and those that would understand fewer. Where do you put the line between what you understand when you twenty with and what you understand at 80 without effort. And not to forget, since knowledge is not particular but collective, when one in a society knows something, the society knows something and benefits from that knowledge to a greater or a lesser extent.

      Yes Qur'an is for all people who want it. As simple as that. If somebody does not want it, just leave it, but seems incredibly self-seeking that because one does not get this or that or so so much should ask that that is not said because that person or many persons even cannot understand it. Tehere are many things many people do nto understand, but it does nto mean that they will not understand one day or that many other people understand it. If we did that, instead animal having evolved from les complex ones to for instance us, we should evolving backwards from humans to amebas. We shoul only print what amebas can understand. I like that. I like a classroom full of amebas.

      Salaam

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      • S Offline
        S Offline
        Samira1234
        wrote on last edited by
        #147

        If I am misunderstanding your kind of "Ultimate Will", why not make an effort at explaining it, because it ultimately seems that you tell people to passivity because no one has to bother about actions or deeds because it is God who wills them. Individual thoughts are meaningless as far as I can understand. The reason why I say the things I say to you is because you cause a lot of inconsistency concerning logic just to propagate your religion.

        Salaam

        I fully agree with Man of Faith. I don't understand this "Ultimate Will" idea either. I could go trip over people randomly and say it is "Allah" who made me do so, and it was written in the other person's "fate" to be tripped over.

        Peace.

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        • T Offline
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          truthseeker11
          wrote on last edited by
          #148

          Hello Samira,

          You seem to be giving a pantheistic vision of God.

          No I am giving a panentheistic vision of the infinite Creator.

          From reading some of your other posts I can see that you have a little confusion between pantheism and panentheism. I will attempt to clarify this issue in the simplest possible manner.

          Pantheism God = all universe, or all universe = God (God is identical to all universe or all universe composes God. Supported by some Asian religions).

          Panentheism has 2 distinct versions

          Panentheism Version A God = all universe + beyond all universe (all universe is a manifestation of a tiny part of the infinite Creator. Supported by quantum physics and E=m times c squared, and some positive higher density channelings such as Ra channeling and Aaron channeling).

          Panentheism Version B God interpenetrates/encompasses all universe and also present beyond all universe, but all universe is distinct from God (Supported by al-quran which is a mixture of positive higher density channeling from Gabriel for the most part, mixed with negative 5th density channeling from entities residing in Orion Constellation).

          http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

          "Pantheism is the belief that the universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity, or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God."

          http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

          "In pantheism, the universe in the first formulation is practically the whole itself, while in panentheism, the universe and the divine are not ontologically equivalent. God is viewed as the eternal animating force maintaining the universe. Some versions suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifest part of God. In some forms of panentheism, the cosmos exists within God, who in turn "transcends", "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos.

          While pantheism asserts that 'All is God', panentheism goes further to claim that God is greater than the universe."

          Based on real world evidence, mind/reason, and conscience, I currently believe in panentheism version A and not the quraanic panentheism version B. Panentheism version A gives the vision of an infinite Creator, whereas panentheism version B gives the vision of a finite Creator, because even though the Creator encompasses/interpenetrates all universe, it is still distinct from all universe. Since I believe that the Creator is infinite, and I have a basic knowledge of quantum physics, I can easily reject panentheism version B.

          The bird example in al-quran actually supports both versions of panentheism.

          In that way why pick birds in an exclusive example? Anything can be picked as examples.

          Birds were arbitrarily picked because birds are some of "anything" and "everything" could not have been picked as an example all at once P It would have been very difficult to name all creation one by one to give examples, and keep the size of the book manageable P

          On a more serious note, I think birds were picked because flight in air is a little harder to understand than movement on earth or in water.

          And why make things so difficult for humans to understand? Allegories after allegories, metaphors after metaphors? Then this Quran is definitely not for a layman reader. Only a person who is already very wise, has very good scientific knowledge, and already has a pantheistic vision of God should read the Quran and string out the individual meanings due to his pre-knowledge. This book (Quran) is not really a book of wisdom then, rather a book you refer to AFTER you are done with other advanced knowledge. I don't understand the purpose of revealing this book so early in 1400, when people were simpler and could not identify real stuff from allegories and metaphors, and read the words straightforward as they were. This book would have hampered a lot of progress if revealed this way then.

          Remember al-quran is meant for all audiences for all times, some audiences with more advanced knowledge and understanding than others.

          Please allow me to give the analogy of a school with classes from grade 1 to grade 8. Imagine a single text book meant for all classes. Some chapters/parts/sentences of that book will be very easy and simple to understand because they are meant for all students, grade 1 through grade 8, and some parts of that book will be harder to understand because they are meant only for grade 8 students.

          Our 3rd density state of existence is exactly like taking various classes and learning various lessons in a school. The most important classes/lessons, are the lessons of doing good works ("service to others" according to Ra), faith/trust in the infinite Creator ("the law of one" according to Ra), and faith in the last day (the time of "harvest" according to Ra), which are relatively easy to understand. Anyone who is able to learn these lessons, will be able to graduate into the positive 4th density state of existence (the quraanic "heaven&quot, even if he/she flunks all the other lessons!

          In my personal opinion, the allegorical parts of al-quran might be meant only for those with very advanced knowledge, OR could be part of the negative higher density Orion channeling meant to confuse us. Either way, those parts are not necessary for advancement into the positive 4th density state of existence

          262 Surely those who have faith/trust; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them has faith in the infinite Creator and the last day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

          For now, it would be more prudent and practical to focus only on those parts of al-quran dealing with the above 3 lessons and implement those lessons in our lives, and move on to the detailed study of the more advanced parts later.

          Peace and may the love and light of the infinite Creator be with you all.

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          • F Offline
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            FreedomStands
            wrote on last edited by
            #149

            I fully agree with Man of Faith. I don't understand this "Ultimate Will" idea either. I could go trip over people randomly and say it is "Allah" who made me do so, and it was written in the other person's "fate" to be tripped over.

            Peace.

            That would be correct. Do you think you can go do anything if it is not the will of Allah that you do it? Why don't you read my posts and you'll see how many times the Qur'an makes this clear.

            5722
            No evil befalls on the earth nor in yourselves, but it is in a decree before We bring it into existence; surely that is easy to Allah

            I have given so many examples throughout the website and quotes from the Qur'an, you can so easily find those by clicking my name and seeing all my posts.

            Yet what does it matter at all what the Qur'an says? If the Qur'an didn't say it, I would still be teaching this message if I was made to understand it.

            If you don't like the Qur'an, then why even concern yourself with anything it says?

            Going and tripping a person doesn't mean that it is good for you to do that, it only proves that you are bad if you do bad things, and proves that you are good if you do good things, and bad people have the habitation of hell, and good people have the habitation of paradise.

            When there is a tiny thing like an early stage of a fetus, do you know what it is? Is it evident or proven or made manifest that it is a human or a lizard or a fish when it is in its earliest stages? No, but then it is proven and made manifest that it is a human or a lizard or a fish by how it develops in stages, and so too is it made clear to everyone and oneself who is a kaffir and who is a muslim, each is a creature of Allah. Does this not make sense to you either? It is very simple and consistent. So the fish lives in the sea, the kaffir lives in hell, and the muslim lives in paradise, each created, each have their habitation determined.

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            • M Offline
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              Man_of_Faith
              wrote on last edited by
              #150

              Freedom,

              But it was not her choice to go around tripping people as per your own logic. You even fail to reason within your scope now.

              Salaam

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              • F Offline
                F Offline
                FreedomStands
                wrote on last edited by
                #151

                Freedom,

                But it was not her choice to go around tripping people as per your own logic. You even fail to reason within your scope now.

                Salaam

                You don't seem to understand at all. Are you blocked from understanding, or will you come to understand? Certainly on the immediate level it appears to be her decisions and what she does, but on the Ultimate level of greater knowledge, we know it is Allah who does it, so knowing this gives great patience in adversity, because our communication is with Allah ultimately, and Allah creates everything that happens

                6112
                In like manner We have made for every prophet an opponent, Satans from among men and jinn, who make evil suggestions to each other by means of specious words in order to deceivehad it been your Lords will, they would not have done so; so leave them alone to their inventions,

                2531
                For so it is that against every prophet We have set up enemies from among those who are lost in sin yet none can guide and give succour as thy Sustainer does!

                1539
                Iblis said My Lord! Because Thou hadst led me into error I will, certainly, make the earth appear pleasing to them and I will lead them one and all into error,

                Iblis is the slave of Allah like all things are the slave of Allah the "voodoo dolls" as you put it, he is created by Allah and Allah made him everything he is and will be.

                716
                Satan said Because Thou hadst led me into error, certainly, I will sit in ambush for them on Thy path, one that is straight.

                488
                How, then, could you be of two minds about the hypocrites, seeing that God has disowned them because of their guilt? Do you, perchance, seek to guide those whom God has caused to err - when for him whom God causes to err thou canst never find any way.

                7186
                Whomsoever Allah causes to err, there is no guide for him; and He leaves them in their continued state of inordinacy, blindly wandering on.


                Can you understand that I am not saying that we don't have the immediate appearance of will and that it is important to strive to do the best you can? Yet it is actually Allah who wills if you do or you don't, you have no power of your own

                2868
                Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any freedom of choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate!

                7630
                But you cannot will it unless God wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.

                8129
                But you cannot will it unless God, the Lord of the Universe, so wills it

                3936
                IS NOT God enough for His servant? And yet, they would frighten thee with those beside Him! But he whom God causes to err can never find any guide,
                And whomever God guides, there is not for him anyone who leads astray. Is not God Almighty, The Possessor of Requital?
                And thus it is if thou ask them, ?Who is it that has created the heavens and the earth?? - they will surely answer, ?God.? Say ?Have you, then, ever considered what it is that you invoke instead of God? If God wills that harm should befall me, could those remove the harm inflicted by Him? Or, if He wills that grace should alight on me, could they withhold His grace ?? Say ?God is enough for me! In Him place their trust all who have trust .?
                Say O my people! Act in your manner. Lo! I (too) am acting. Thus ye will come to know"


                You will only do what Allah has made you to do and you will only be what Allah has made you to be, you are not the creator of information, nor are you a self made man.

                928
                But as for him who is niggardly, and thinks that he is self-sufficient,
                and calls the best a lie ? (hopefully not you?)
                We will make falling into difficulty easy for him.
                And his substance will avail him not when he perisheth.
                Verily We take upon Ourselves to guide,
                and, behold, Ours is the life to come as well as this earlier part
                Therefor have I warned you of the flaming Fire
                which none shall have to endure but that most hapless wretch
                Who gives the lie and turns his back.

                944
                And We have upraised for thee thy renown.

                Every single aspect of life is constantly created by God, but that is just the higher reality or higher truth, if you can not comprehend it, and can not comprehend that you are surrendered to Be what Allah says you will Be and Allah creates whatever Allah wills (be it the suffering worm, the retarded child, or anything else that exists as information), then know that regardless, in the apparent and immediate level it is clear that we must do what we can do for the best results, but behind all that may come to pass and all that we may do is actually the Decree and Words of Allah who is writing this tale entirely from beginning to end

                5722
                No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence That is truly easy for Allah

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                • M Offline
                  M Offline
                  Man_of_Faith
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #152

                  Well according to your reasoning it does not matter what you do because it is not for you to decide. It was God who made her trip you.

                  Please you need to follow your logic all out and not just say A and not B.

                  Salaam

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                  • S Offline
                    S Offline
                    Samira1234
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #153

                    That would be correct. Do you think you can go do anything if it is not the will of Allah that you do it? Why don't you read my posts and you'll see how many times the Qur'an makes this clear.

                    5722
                    No evil befalls on the earth nor in yourselves, but it is in a decree before We bring it into existence; surely that is easy to Allah

                    Going and tripping a person doesn't mean that it is good for you to do that, it only proves that you are bad if you do bad things, and proves that you are good if you do good things, and bad people have the habitation of hell, and good people have the habitation of paradise.

                    You clearly contradicted yourself here FreedomStands. According to your logic it was not me but Allah's will. Checkmate, buddy. Gotcha ;D

                    Freedom,

                    But it was not her choice to go around tripping people as per your own logic. You even fail to reason within your scope now.

                    Salaam

                    Yup. FreedomStands, you may be a decent person in general, but you keep contradicting yourself with your lengthy and confusing words.

                    You don't seem to understand at all. Are you blocked from understanding, or will you come to understand? Certainly on the immediate level it appears to be her decisions and what she does, but on the Ultimate level of greater knowledge, we know it is Allah who does it, so knowing this gives great patience in adversity, because our communication is with Allah ultimately, and Allah creates everything that happens

                    Oh God. This is going in circles now.

                    Peace.

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                    • F Offline
                      F Offline
                      FreedomStands
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #154

                      Well according to your reasoning it does not matter what you do because it is not for you to decide. It was God who made her trip you.

                      Please you need to follow your logic all out and not just say A and not B.

                      Salaam

                      Please don't ignore what I wrote above. I am not ignoring what you wrote or are writing.

                      Yes, on the Ultimate level it is God who does and creates anything (look at the post above your post), but on the immediate level it was clearly "the bird flies, the woman laughs, the child kicked" but on the ultimate level Allah is willing and choosing and painting the whole picture and writing the whole book and all these are the words of Allah, information created by Allah. Read above please. Why can't you understand this simple message? I am not denying the obvious appearance of will and desire, but all such things are created by Allah and controlled by Allah, even if you don't realize it, go look above where it says Allah is setting up these enemies and armies and those who oppose, and Allah leads them astray and all of it. If you hate the Qur'an, then don't blame me for it, go look above your post to see what it says.

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                      • S Offline
                        S Offline
                        Samira1234
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #155

                        Please don't ignore what I wrote above. I am not ignoring what you wrote or are writing.

                        Yes, on the Ultimate level it is God who does and creates anything (look at the post above your post), but on the immediate level it was clearly "the bird flies, the woman laughs, the child kicked" but on the ultimate level Allah is willing and choosing and painting the whole picture and writing the whole book and all these are the words of Allah, information created by Allah. Read above please. Why can't you understand this simple message? I am not denying the obvious appearance of will and desire, but all such things are created by Allah and controlled by Allah, even if you don't realize it, go look above where it says Allah is setting up these enemies and armies and those who oppose, and Allah leads them astray and all of it. If you hate the Qur'an, then don't blame me for it, go look above your post to see what it says.

                        FreedomStands is a big fat giant monyet.
                        (Monyet is a Malay word).

                        Yeah, Allah made me write that.

                        Yaba daba doo.
                        Allah made me write that too.

                        FreedomStands is messed up in regards to the logic on God and goes around in circles with his speech.
                        Allah made me write that too.

                        Hence there are so many things I can write but I am withholding because of my own self-restraint, NOTHING ELSE. But then. apparently it is still Allah who is pulling the strings behind it all.

                        Yaba daba doo.

                        Peace.

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                        • M Offline
                          M Offline
                          Man_of_Faith
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #156

                          Why would I hate Quran? Just bad translations I dislike.

                          Salaam

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                          • F Offline
                            F Offline
                            FreedomStands
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #157

                            You clearly contradicted yourself here FreedomStands. According to your logic it was not me but Allah's will. Checkmate, buddy. Gotcha ;D

                            Yup. FreedomStands, you may be a decent person in general, but you keep contradicting yourself with your lengthy and confusing words.

                            Oh God. This is going in circles now.

                            Peace.

                            Read this Samira, http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607118.msg361787#msg361787 there was no checkmate, except you're already at a loss if you can not understand.

                            I am saying that on the immediate level it is clearly us doing each of these things, the bird flies, the fish swims, the man walks, but on the Ultimate level it is Allah writing the whole story, just like in a book you might right "Charlie walked to the grocery store, and saw a piece of paper and felt sad". Do you understand? Charlie in the story doesn't necessarily know that Allah is writing his whole life and Charlie doesn't see what is in his future or that the end of the story says "Charlie murdered his wife and his children", and Allah makes it clear that it is Allah who kills, Allah who makes laugh, Allah who makes weep, Allah who wills (you can not will), I demonstrate it over and over. Allah determines who dies and who lives and when and how they die and when and how they live, you never chose any of it, even though the story says "Charlie decided to pick up the paper, he thought, I should give this to Mary" Allah is writing the story, but we don't have access to that nor can we write it or do we share in the power of Allah, that doesn't mean on our immediate level of appearance we should not strive.

                            There was no contradiction, there was no error, it is just something that people might find hard to understand, and reply in a silly way to the idea. "Samira would not understand, she wrote (writes every specific word and how you might fart in private)" This is all Allah writing it, so if Allah guides you, it is Allah who wrote it, and if Allah causes you to err, it is Allah who wrote it, Allah can write "Samira's eyes were opened, she suddenly understands, she smiled and felt sad for having attacked FreedomStands, FreedomStands replied kindly, and was overjoyed inside that she finally understood, and praised Allah for making her know" as only Allah can. Please read those posts and you will see even the enemies are set up by Allah, Allah is writing the whole story, but on the immediate level we appearing to do it and are doing it, we are made to do, and thus Allah writes that some will strive and will good things, others will do bad things, and Allah creates whatever Allah wants to create, from the retarded baby to the mutilated fish to the kaffir headed for hell who is cruel to the muslim who does good. Allah has power over everything absolutely. Allah created you as a slave and all information is the slave of Allah willingly or unwillingly.

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                            • F Offline
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                              FreedomStands
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #158

                              Why would I hate Quran? Just bad translations I dislike.

                              Salaam

                              The Qur'an has a pretty consistent message throughout and I've shown you numerous quotes. What I explained to Samira just now applies to you too, simply read what I'm writing, it can't possibly be so hard to comprehend! Yet even the lack of comprehension is a miracle! Really it is simple, and does not defy the appearance of "free will".

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                              • S Offline
                                S Offline
                                Samira1234
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #159

                                Read this Samira, http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607118.msg361787#msg361787 there was no checkmate, except you're already at a loss if you can not understand.

                                My loss is also dictated by Allah then. It is you who is don't understand and keep contradicting yourself.

                                There was no contradiction, there was no error, it is just something that people might find hard to understand, and reply in a silly way to the idea. "Samira would not understand, she wrote (writes every specific word and how you might fart in private)" This is all Allah writing it, so if Allah guides you, it is Allah who wrote it, and if Allah causes you to err, it is Allah who wrote it

                                People finding it hard to understand is also dictated by Allah, so you are getting irritated for no reason (unless the irritation is also by Allah? Man, this God reallly like his detailed roleplays). So hence you rebelling against me is also rebelling against Allah's will (unless the double rebellion is also by Allah? Awesome).

                                Allah can write "Samira's eyes were opened, she suddenly understands, she smiled and felt sad for having attacked FreedomStands, FreedomStands replied kindly, and was overjoyed inside that she finally understood, and praised Allah for making her know" as only Allah can.

                                I don't care about understanding, since everything is already dictated by Allah and is Allah's will to make me understand or not to understand. And if you reply back to me on this, you are rebelling against Allah Himself, since Allah made me write these words.

                                So easy to debunk such things right away. Now nothing is my fault, I can say anything I want to FreedomStands and he technically shouldn't say anything back, since everything is already dictated by Allah. Woot.

                                Peace.

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                                • S Offline
                                  S Offline
                                  Samira1234
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #160

                                  The Qur'an has a pretty consistent message throughout and I've shown you numerous quotes. What I explained to Samira just now applies to you too, simply read what I'm writing, it can't possibly be so hard to comprehend! Yet even the lack of comprehension is a miracle! Really it is simple, and does not defy the appearance of "free will".

                                  Why you trying to make him comprehend? That shows you are trying to appeal to Man of Faith's free will itself. I wish you could see how you keep contradicting yourself. You don't believe in free will, yet write lengthy statements to appeal to other people's free will.

                                  Peace.

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                                  • F Offline
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                                    FreedomStands
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #161

                                    My loss is also dictated by Allah then. It is you who is don't understand and keep contradicting yourself.

                                    People finding it hard to understand is also dictated by Allah, so you are getting irritated for no reason (unless the irritation is also by Allah? Man, this God reallly like his detailed roleplays). So hence you rebelling against me is also rebelling against Allah's will (unless the double rebellion is also by Allah? Awesome).

                                    I don't care about understanding, since everything is already dictated by Allah and is Allah's will to make me understand or not to understand. And if you reply back to me on this, you are rebelling against Allah Himself, since Allah made me write these words.

                                    So easy to debunk such things right away. Now nothing is my fault, I can say anything I want to FreedomStands and he technically shouldn't say anything back, since everything is already dictated by Allah. Woot.

                                    Peace.

                                    I am not contradicting myself, you are right that if you lose, your loss is by Allah, the Qur'an makes that clear if you're allowed to read my posts ever.

                                    No I am not getting irritated for no reason, my irritation comes from Allah, my hatred comes from Allah, my laughter and my tears ultimately, but on the immediate level there are "appearances" of "causes", but Allah is the one creating every single aspect of information in existence

                                    5343
                                    and that it is He alone who causes to laugh and to weep;

                                    If I say "So and So made me laugh" that is the immediate truth, that is just language and that is normal and fine, but the higher truth is Allah does everything, and "All is from God" as it says.

                                    Yes, our opposition or our friendship is from Allah and by Allah and written by Allah, go look at all the evidences from the Qur'an I showed in that link if you can (and of course if you don't, it just means Allah didn't let you, and if you do, it means Allah made you, but this is the higher truth, on the immediate level we can say you did this or you did that, and that is true too).

                                    No I am not rebelling against Allah's will no one can rebel against Allah or oppose Allah, Allah is the "Irresistible" who has pwoer over everything, but he is the one who "sets up enemies" to each other or "makes friends" between people, and there are quotes I provided showing the enemies version, and here is the quote about friends

                                    607
                                    It may be that Allah will ordain love between you and those of them with whom ye are at enmity. Allah is Mighty, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

                                    3021
                                    And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.

                                    3103
                                    And hold fast, all together, unto the bond with God, and do not draw apart from one another. And remember the blessings which God has bestowed upon you how, when you were enemies, He brought your hearts together, so that through His blessing you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a fiery abyss. He saved you from it. In this way God makes clear His messages unto you, so that you might find guidance,


                                    No, I think you don't understand. If you look at the quotes I provided, you are not debunking anything at all. Opposing you is not opposing God just because God is the one creating the opposition and the conflict between us, Allah is doing both of them, just like in a book one might write "Then the two armies battled, and Samira was the victor, and FreedomStands was defeated and laid low", but that doesn't mean I was opposing God really, no one can oppose the will of God, God is creating this story, this information, that I am telling you what I am telling you, and you are doing what you are doing, and on the immediate level you may do this or that, and you may come to understand, but on the higher level it was Allah who made you understand or kept you ignorant of it, I am not defying Allah just because Allah has set you up as an enemy for now, if you look at the quotes I provided it makes it really clear.

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                                      Samira1234
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #162

                                      I am not contradicting myself, you are right that if you lose, your loss is by Allah, the Qur'an makes that clear if you're allowed to read my posts ever.

                                      No I am not getting irritated for no reason, my irritation comes from Allah, my hatred comes from Allah, my laughter and my tears ultimately, but on the immediate level there are "appearances" of "causes", but Allah is the one creating every single aspect of information in existence

                                      Okay, cool.

                                      no one can oppose the will of God, God is creating this story, this information, that I am telling you what I am telling you, and you are doing what you are doing, and on the immediate level you may do this or that, and you may come to understand, but on the higher level it was Allah who made you understand or kept you ignorant of it, I am not defying Allah just because Allah has set you up as an enemy for now

                                      Alright. So I am doing what I am doing. I really don't see the point of Allah then doing all this except because he was bored earlier and wants to create a giant living roleplay.

                                      Dadada.
                                      Meow meow meow.
                                      Bibooba.
                                      Fidodido.

                                      And no, it's not really me who said the above, it's Allah behind the scenes who made me, as according to the interpretation you have regarding the verses.

                                      Choo choo train.

                                      Peace.

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                                        Man_of_Faith
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #163

                                        Freedom,

                                        Interpretation from traditional sectarian sources is more often than not very lackluster. Besides, you over-apply the God's will rule at the cost of coherence. You also leave out logic of other passages to prove your point from the passages that you copy-paste on the forum. I told you that your logic is flawed. The most important is that there is ultimately no reason for us to be in this world if things are according to your reasoning. God would simply be letting us be voodoo dolls in some barbaric experiment for entertainment that has no practical use.

                                        I think your tone is overall starting to turn more aggressive and unfriendly and do you think God is behaving this way?

                                        Your point of view probably makes one miss out on important matters through the fixation that God is the only thing that matter. The behavioral part of faith is the essence of it. But in your reasoning there is no reason to do any good because God is master over you so you cannot do it on your own volition.

                                        Except from that you have basically not come up with anything useful for the past 24 hours as far as I know. We are just going around on the same circular reasoning the whole day and I spelled out big logical issues with your stance.

                                        Do I really have to begin copy-pasting myself to show how inconsistent the claims are?

                                        Salaam

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                                          FreedomStands
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #164

                                          Okay, cool.

                                          Alright. So I am doing what I am doing. I really don't see the point of Allah then doing all this except because he was bored earlier and wants to create a giant living roleplay.

                                          Dadada.
                                          Meow meow meow.
                                          Bibooba.
                                          Fidodido.

                                          And no, it's not really me who said the above, it's Allah behind the scenes who made me, as according to the interpretation you have regarding the verses.

                                          Choo choo train.

                                          Peace.

                                          Most of what you said is right, but what do you mean by "point"? Why does everyone say "point"? The "point" is explained, Allah creates whatever Allah wills. Allah does not get "bored" because Allah does not have "needs" or "lack", such as the way you are made to feel bored because you are given the feeling you are missing some satisfaction or whatever. Allah freely generated information as Allah wills. Allah is unconditioned, that means that "bored" would be a condition upon Allah inflicted from some other greater source, and what I am speaking of is whatever is Ultimate and has nothing conditioning it, so there is no boredom for Allah, just Allah creating whatever Allah wants to create. Humans and their "experience of boredom" are just some of the creations of Allah, there are things you do not know which Allah has created which are entirely different.

                                          If you create a sculpture out of clay, does it move on its own and start to speak to you? No, you move it around if it is going to move it around. Allah even said He animated you, put in the Animating Spirit, he Animates everything absolutely.

                                          2443
                                          Art thou not aware that it is God who causes the clouds to move onward, then joins them together, then piles them up in masses, until thou can see rain come forth from their midst? And He it is who sends down from the skies, by degrees, mountainous masses charged with hail, striking therewith whomever He wills and averting it from whomever He wills, the flash of His lightning well-nigh deprives sight!
                                          It is God who causes night and day to alternate in this , behold, there is surely a lesson for all who have eyes to see!
                                          And it is God who has created all animals out of water; and among them are such as crawl on their bellies, and such as walk on two legs, and such as walk on four. God creates what He will for, verily, God has the power to will anything.
                                          Verily We have sent down revelations and explained them. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.
                                          For, they say, ?We believe in God and in the Apostle, and we pay heed!? - but then, some of them turn away after this and these are by no means believers.
                                          And whenever they are summoned unto God and His Apostle in order that might decide between them, lo! some of them turn away;
                                          but if the truth happens to be to their liking, they are quite willing to accept it!
                                          Is there in their hearts a disease, or have they doubts, or fear they lest Allah and His messenger should wrong them in judgment? Nay, but such are evil-doers. (creation called "evil-doers)
                                          The saying of (all true) believers when they appeal unto Allah and His messenger to judge between them is only that they say We hear and we obey. And such are the successful. (the creation who will be "successful" Allah is plotting out the story)
                                          for, they who pay heed unto God and His Apostle, and stand in awe of God and are conscious of Him, it is they, they who shall triumph !
                                          They swear by Allah solemnly that, if thou order them, they will go forth. Say Swear not; known obedience (is better). Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do.
                                          Say Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if ye turn away, then (it is) for him (to do) only that wherewith he hath been charged, and for you (to do) only that wherewith ye have been charged. If ye obey him, ye will go aright. But the messenger hath no other charge than to convey (the message) plainly.
                                          Allah hath promised such of you as believe and do good work that He will surely make them to succeed (the present rulers) in the earth even as He caused those who were before them to succeed (others); and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He hath approved for them, and will give them in exchange safety after their fear. They serve Me. They ascribe no thing as partner unto Me. Those who disbelieve henceforth, they are the miscreants.
                                          Establish worship and pay the poor-due and obey the messenger, that haply ye may find mercy.
                                          Think not that the disbelievers can escape in the land. Fire will be their home - a hapless journey's end!


                                          Isaiah 459
                                          "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?

                                          Romans 920
                                          But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"

                                          Romans 921
                                          Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

                                          Job 912
                                          If he snatches away, who can stop him? Who can say to him, 'What are you doing?'

                                          Matthew 44
                                          But he answered, ?It is written, ??Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.??

                                          Deuteronomy 83
                                          He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

                                          Exodus 101
                                          Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them

                                          Romans 918
                                          Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

                                          Exodus 713
                                          Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

                                          Lamentations 338
                                          Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

                                          Job 210
                                          He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

                                          Isaiah 457
                                          I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

                                          2 Thessalonians 211
                                          Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

                                          Judges 923
                                          God stirred up animosity between Abimelek and the citizens of Shechem so that they acted treacherously against Abimelek.

                                          1 Samuel 1614
                                          Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

                                          1 Kings 2223
                                          "So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

                                          Ezekiel 149
                                          "'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

                                          Some Extra
                                          Exodus 421
                                          The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

                                          Exodus 73
                                          But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,

                                          Exodus 912
                                          But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

                                          Exodus 101
                                          Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them

                                          Exodus 1020
                                          But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

                                          Exodus 1027
                                          But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

                                          Exodus 1110
                                          Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

                                          Exodus 144
                                          And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.

                                          Exodus 1417
                                          I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.

                                          Deuteronomy 230
                                          But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.

                                          Joshua 1120
                                          For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

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