Do you take the Qur'an literally?
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Well that is Allah's will as well apparently. I don't know why I should bother to think in the first place if it is Allah who is being the marionettist in the first place. Hence FreedomStands needs to acknowledge more of the concept of free will for him to acknowledge that yes, we do have free will, besides Allah controlling us, for us to make decisions.
I do not quite blame FreedomStands for his position, for those who may be disturbed by his opinions on free will. He is using the Quran after all. I already said I feel the Quran has been quite badly mistranslated and misinterpreted, if it is indeed a scripture divinely inspired by Allah, so the many verses regarding the concept of free will are also distortions.
For example, see these verses
3213
If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance but the Word from Me will come true, ?I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together".1693
If Allah had willed he would have made you one nation. But he leads astray whom he will and guides whom he will. But you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.Yikes. If I didn't have some additional inspiration I would most likely have ran away from this religion already with fear and to protect my conscience. This God looks messed up from the way He controls people's free will and then rewards or punishes them for it; there is no denying it for a more rational minded person. But then since many people are partly indoctrinated when it comes to religion, they may see nothing really wrong with such verses. In that case they should definitely side with FreedomStands, on the points he made which did in fact go hand in hand with these verses.
Peace.
How about this What you know as your free will, exists, you are experiencing it, it is information you are experiencing. All information is generated by God. I am not saying you don't experience making choices and decisions or that you mustn't think or act.
Thank you anyway for your post, but most people are interpreting what I am saying similarly to how you appear to be. Most people think of God as a human being, but remember there is No God, that is the first part of the Shahada. What I am talking about is "Reality", "How things are", "Nature", and whatever else. What people often call "God" does not exist, and if it exists, it is not even what I am referring to at all most likely, because I am not talking about some figure that sits around like a man making decisions about things and going "hmm" "what should I do now" "I am tired" "I am bored" "I am hungry" "I want entertainment", these ideas all show who is thinking about "God" wrongly, and most people do. There is no such thing, I am an "Atheist" in that sense, and Atheism is the first part of the Shahada, to rid your mind of all these idolatrous and silly illogical ideas, and consider what actually "is", to consider Reality itself, Nature itself, how things "are" and what it is, and what it is, is information, and information appears to be moving, and that is all we ever can "know" and can "see", but we also are pointed towards what is "non-information", that which is "beyond" or "behind" the information, its driving source and power. which is not actually "made from it" because it is the Nothing which brings every moment into existence.
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It's okay, Allah makes people understand or misunderstand according to His will. So your job is to convey, as Allah willed for you, and then it depends on Allah's will for the rest of us whether we understand or we don't. I already said we are part of a big roleplay apparently.
Peace.
There wouldn't be anything if it were not generated. Thanks though. It isn't a "roleplay" exactly, only because the "mind" behind it all is not a "human mind". It is like an Octopus thinking "God must think like an Octopus" but God is not any of those things, God isn't a human, so the thinking is not like a human, even though the "experience of being Samira" is a specific set of information at any moment and is encompassed by God, God is potentially encompassing realities and things which humans can not even comprehend or imagine because they are humans right now.
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There wouldn't be anything if it were not generated. Thanks though. It isn't a "roleplay" exactly, only because the "mind" behind it all is not a "human mind". It is like an Octopus thinking "God must think like an Octopus" but God is not any of those things, God isn't a human, so the thinking is not like a human, even though the "experience of being Samira" is a specific set of information at any moment and is encompassed by God, God is potentially encompassing realities and things which humans can not even comprehend or imagine because they are humans right now.
I meant basically what you said. In a simple puppet roleplay there may be marionettes and marionettist present, but if the same concept is implemented in a God-like dimension, then obviously higher methods are used, such as channeling information to the human consciousness, and the human mind then accepting it as normal and "free will" and directly implementing it as it is without question. If the human questions, that could also be part of the channeled information by God, as according to what you say.
To simplify it all without the heady terms, I use the example of a puppet roleplay, that's all.
Peace.
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I meant basically what you said. In a simple puppet roleplay there may be marionettes and marionettist present, but if the same concept is implemented in a God-like dimension, then obviously higher methods are used, such as channeling information to the human consciousness, and the human mind then accepting it as normal and "free will" and directly implementing it as it is without question. If the human questions, that could also be part of the channeled information by God, as according to what you say.
To simplify it all without the heady terms, I use the example of a puppet roleplay, that's all.
Peace.
Why should it be a question though regarding what generates the information, is there something else which generates information? What I am calling information is absolutely everything, I mean your experience of yourself, what is heard, what is seen, what is known to you, is all unique to you (otherwise someone experiencing only what you experience exactly and only that and nothing extra would just be you and no one else, they would be "standing" in the same place as you and everything, there would be no difference. God is not you, because God is not limited to that set of information the way you are limited to whatever you know currently, but God encompasses that information and whatever else, so because God has additional information God is not you exactly the way anything with only your set of information and nothing more would be you only that moment.
I am only referring to "that which generates all information ultimately" as "God". There is no doubt that even the experience can be given to someone or the impression that they are generating information. They could even think of something and then point their finger and it would manifest just as they had imagined, but even so, they would be "conditioned" beings, because they are made of information and didn't make themselves, and everything in our personal experience is "conditioned" and "created" and "restricted" in various ways, so we do not worship those confined things, we worship whatever absolutely can not be "restricted" and whatever can not be "restricted" is what is not "bound" by information, and so is "before" it and "beyond" it and not made of any information, and information can not generate itself of its own power, just like a rock can not make a rock, so something has to generate the information in order for it to exist, whatever it may be, whatever experience it may be. Yet that "something" if you go to the ultimate level is "nothing" or "like nothing" it can not logically be information itself, but is "before" the information and "eternal" because there is no "time" over it or beyond it, but "time" is just a perception or concept it creates in some experiences. Though your marionette thing is fine idea, I just think it brings a person's mind to something too anthropomorphic. It is neither thinking like a human nor unable to think like a human, but human thoughts are some of the many forms of information or experience it has generated from nothing (itself if you prefer, though saying itself might make people think it is made of information when it isn't at all).
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Why should it be a question though regarding what generates the information, is there something else which generates information? What I am calling information is absolutely everything, I mean your experience of yourself, what is heard, what is seen, what is known to you, is all unique to you (otherwise someone experiencing only what you experience exactly and only that and nothing extra would just be you and no one else, they would be "standing" in the same place as you and everything, there would be no difference. God is not you, because God is not limited to that set of information the way you are limited to whatever you know currently, but God encompasses that information and whatever else, so because God has additional information God is not you exactly the way anything with only your set of information and nothing more would be you only that moment.
I am only referring to "that which generates all information ultimately" as "God". There is no doubt that even the experience can be given to someone or the impression that they are generating information. They could even think of something and then point their finger and it would manifest just as they had imagined, but even so, they would be "conditioned" beings, because they are made of information and didn't make themselves, and everything in our personal experience is "conditioned" and "created" and "restricted" in various ways, so we do not worship those confined things, we worship whatever absolutely can not be "restricted" and whatever can not be "restricted" is what is not "bound" by information, and so is "before" it and "beyond" it and not made of any information, and information can not generate itself of its own power, just like a rock can not make a rock, so something has to generate the information in order for it to exist, whatever it may be, whatever experience it may be. Yet that "something" if you go to the ultimate level is "nothing" or "like nothing" it can not logically be information itself, but is "before" the information and "eternal" because there is no "time" over it or beyond it, but "time" is just a perception or concept it creates in some experiences. Though your marionette thing is fine idea, I just think it brings a person's mind to something too anthropomorphic. It is neither thinking like a human nor unable to think like a human, but human thoughts are some of the many forms of information or experience it has generated from nothing (itself if you prefer, though saying itself might make people think it is made of information when it isn't at all).
Yeah, puppet roleplay basically, but in more advanced form using multiple dimensions since this is a much larger form of roleplay. If we took a look at all of it from a point above the universe and it is what you say it is, we would all come to the conclusion that it is indeed a massive form of roleplay, and God may be just out there to have fun as a marionettist in particular since His world without the universe/s is most likely a very boring one. Would have been still okay in a way, although meaningless obviously, if the traditional descriptions of Heaven and Hell did not exist. Which ultimately turns this "God" into a giant monster.
Peace.
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Peace Samira,
In addition to what you said, it does not mean "two" but "two's" or "two at a time" or "group of two", not "three" but "three's" or "three at a time" or "group of three", not "four" but "four's" or "four at a time" or "group of four".
This has been brought to the attention of free mind translators on this forum multiple times but they keep stubbornly mistranslating the three words because the correct meanings will cause the verse to not make any sense if translated as marry.
I have been struggling with the meaning of this verse for years and it has not made any sense to me when translated the traditional way. The only way it makes any sense is if it is translated as "marry off" instead of "marry"
43 And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then marry off the women who are agreeable to you two at a time, and three at a time, and four at a time. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or whom you maintain by your oaths. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.
"Two at a time, and three at a time, and four at a time" is an idiomatic way of saying "in a group". This is obviously referring to group weddings, in which many couples are married off in a group. Group weddings are cheaper than holding separate weddings for all the couples so it is preferred to avoid financial hardship. But if you cannot be fair to all the couples (spending more on one couple's wedding than another in a group wedding), then marry them off one at a time.
The only problem is whenever this is proposed on this forum, the Arabic language gods jump in saying although "inkihoo" can mean both "marry" and "marry off" in Arabic, it cannot mean "marry off" and can only mean "marry" in this verse. Go figure!
Peace and may the infinite Creator bless you.
Peace truthseeker11, All
In regards to 4/3 and 4/127, 4/128, and 4/129.
First to establish context, let's agree or disagree if sura 4 is for the advancement and
protection of Females yes/no?God bless you
peace
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Yeah, puppet roleplay basically, but in more advanced form using multiple dimensions since this is a much larger form of roleplay. If we took a look at all of it from a point above the universe and it is what you say it is, we would all come to the conclusion that it is indeed a massive form of roleplay, and God may be just out there to have fun as a marionettist in particular since His world without the universe/s is most likely a very boring one. Would have been still okay in a way, although meaningless obviously, if the traditional descriptions of Heaven and Hell did not exist. Which ultimately turns this "God" into a giant monster.
Peace.
Can you talk to me about "fun" and "boredom" in your experience? Can you describe these two concepts, and how they operate in your experience? Then you might realize that you are thinking of God as a human like yourself, and that "fun" and "boredom" are both conditions which do not act upon what can not be acted upon. If you describe how "fun" operates in your life, after thinking about it deeply "how do I have fun, how does it really work" "why do I become bored, how does it really work" then maybe you might understand why what you are saying is almost primitive seeming (though the primitive people may have been wise, I don't know).
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Peace be upon you all,
My two cents on the concept of free will
Events happening at the micro level are random just like free will but at the macro level it only results in a certain definite event. At the cellular level in a living being, certain amino acid molecules might be picked at random (free will) to construct a protein and other amino acid molecules might be picked at random (free will) to be metabolized, but the end result is protein synthesis and life. When water is boiled, the kinetic energy of molecules increases and they move in random directions (free will) with greater speed, but eventually they will all escape in one direction above the liquid gas interface.
All humans (micro parts of the Infinite One) might make different micro decisions using their free will but the macro end result in the long run over millions of years will always be ascension and evolution towards merging back with the Infinite One and disappearance of the illusion of separateness. The paths taken using free will might be different, some much longer than others, and some much shorter and faster, and going in different directions, but they will all result in a greater diversity of experience and lead to the same destination eventually.
Thus the Infinite Creator experiences itself. The experience is greater and more diverse and the evolution is faster with presence of polarity of good and bad and the presence of free will, than with the absence of free will and thereby existence of good only.
As far as free will and predestination is concerned, I don't believe there is any predestination. Free will was given by the Infinite Creator to the lower densities of existence to increase polarity, thereby increasing the experience. When there is no free will there is only "good" (service to others) and everything is predestined. The presence of free will automatically implies the presence of "bad" (service to self) pathway which causes a polarity of "good" and "bad" and exponentially increases the various experiences, and the logical deduction is that there is no predestination.
The Infinite Creator is outside the bounds of space and time and can see the past, present, and future of the lower density existence at the same time. There is no actual past, present, or future in reality. Time is a consequence of the ILLUSION of separateness of the lower density existence from the Infinite Creator and only the lower densities are bound by space and time. There is a past, present, and future only from our point of view and not from the Infinite Creator's point of view. So just because the Infinite Creator "knows the future" does not mean there is predestination, or absence of free will in our 3rd density state of existence.
I can give an analogy by the concept of a time machine. Suppose you use a time machine to travel to the future and see the actions of "Truth Seeker" in the future, and then come back to the present. Now you know what "Truth Seeker" is going to do in future, but that does not mean that "Truth Seeker" did not have free will to perform his actions, or that he was predestined to perform those actions. "Knowledge of future actions" of 3rd density beings by the Infinite Creator does not mean the 3rd density beings have no free will or that they are predestined to perform their actions.
No free will = predestination ------> Only "positive" or STO pathway ("negative" pathway impossible).
Free will = no predestination ------> Both "positive" STO and "negative" STS pathways.The lower density beings can use this gift of free will to either speed up their evolution to the higher density positive existence ("heaven" by choosing the service to others path, and hastening the return back to the Infinite One, or can slow down their evolution by choosing the service to self path, thereby delaying the return back to the Infinite One. Remaining in the same density existence, or progression into a negative higher density existence is a direct "consequence" of the action of choosing the service to self path freely, and not a "punishment".
I think there is no "punishment" or "reward". There is just progression/regression from one state to another. There is just "experience" and "evolution", "karmic repercussions of actions", and lessons to be learned. There are "consequences" to the actions so lessons can be learned, and experiences gained which aids in our evolution to the higher states of existence finally culminating in return to the Infinite Creator.
"Punishment" implies we are not part of the Creator, but distinct from the Creator, which makes the Creator finite and limited. Hence the logical consequence of the Infinite nature of the Creator is that we are all part of the Infinite Creator, and there is no "punishment". I don't think the original message channeled (sent, inspired, revealed) from the sixth density positive being Gabriel to Muhammad, contained any mention of "punishment" or "burning in hell". I am eagerly awaiting the discovery of the original Arabic text of the message sent to Muhammad for verification of this.
Peace and may the love and light of the Infinite Creator be with you all.
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Peace hawk,
My intention was not to get involved in a debate with anyone but to draw attention to a BLATANT mistranslation in 43 of three Arabic words (mathna, thulatha, ruba3a), and my personal opinion that "inkihoo" might be traditionally mistranslated here as "marry" instead of "marry off".
Translating "inkihoo" as "marry" and translating mathna, thulatha, ruba3a correctly as "two at a time, three at a time, four at a time" will result in the verse meaning that conditional on preceding clause, PEOPLE (including men and women) marry 2 women at the same time, and 3 women at the same time, and 4 women at the same time. How is that possible? You talk about context but then ignore the context. The verse 43 is being addressed to PEOPLE and not men, as per 41.
- How can women (included in PEOPLE) marry women unless al-quran allows lesbianism?
- How can someone marry 2 women at same time and 3 women at same time and 4 women at same time unless a person marries a group of 2 + 3 + 4 = 9 women at same time?
Clearly "inkihoo" = "marry" is not possible in 43.
Translating "inkihoo" as "marry off" with correct translation of mathna, thulatha, ruba3a makes sense as I showed earlier and also based on 43 being addressed to PEOPLE (including men and women).
In regards to 4/3 and 4/127, 4/128, and 4/129.
First to establish context, let's agree or disagree if sura 4 is for the advancement and
protection of Females yes/no?Marrying "nisaa" is not the only option for their advancement and protection. "Nisaa" can be married off to appropriate "rijaal" for their advancement and protection also.
This topic has been extensively discussed in this forum many years ago. Please use the search feature to go through the appropriate threads and continue discussion in those threads. I will not discuss this issue further in this thread.
Peace and may the Infinite Creator bless you.
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Can you talk to me about "fun" and "boredom" in your experience? Can you describe these two concepts, and how they operate in your experience? Then you might realize that you are thinking of God as a human like yourself, and that "fun" and "boredom" are both conditions which do not act upon what can not be acted upon. If you describe how "fun" operates in your life, after thinking about it deeply "how do I have fun, how does it really work" "why do I become bored, how does it really work" then maybe you might understand why what you are saying is almost primitive seeming (though the primitive people may have been wise, I don't know).
Um, from the description of God being shown as a marionettist, who will also judge people who He inspired and controlled Himself, and then give them divine rewards or horrendous punishments accordingly, this God's description is quite human-like itself who have the same primitive feelings on "fun" and "boredom" like human beings. So yeah.
Peace.
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Um, from the description of God being shown as a marionettist, who will also judge people who He inspired and controlled Himself, and then give them divine rewards or horrendous punishments accordingly, this God's description is quite human-like itself who have the same primitive feelings on "fun" and "boredom" like human beings. So yeah.
Peace.
No, that isn't what I asked you. God is described primitively at times in the Qur'an and other books. I am asking you particularly how "fun" and "boredom" operate. To think about that, you might realize something. I was asking you to consider your experience of "fun" and "boredom" and see how they operate and what causes them for you as a human being. If you read my questions again, you might see. I wasn't saying "where in the Qur'an does it say this" or "give me an example of something in the Qur'an about this", you can read the question again here
"Can you talk to me about "fun" and "boredom" in your experience? Can you describe these two concepts, and how they operate in your experience? Then you might realize that you are thinking of God as a human like yourself, and that "fun" and "boredom" are both conditions which do not act upon what can not be acted upon. If you describe how "fun" operates in your life, after thinking about it deeply "how do I have fun, how does it really work" "why do I become bored, how does it really work" then maybe you might understand why what you are saying is almost primitive seeming (though the primitive people may have been wise, I don't know)."
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Peace.
The physical body did not go anywhere. The Science fiction has not(will not in our life time) materialise.
However the spiritual body can travel at many times the speed of light ,beyond our universe( To where the paradise is situated?)
Angels ascend and descend continuously doing their job.( Wakas ,please do not ask me for evidence, wait until we are spirits and you will see the evidence.)
The Miraj of the prophet was a fact to those who believe the "soul" i.e the real person was summoned/taken ...(The body was probably asleep somewhere) or a fiction/nonsense to those that do not believe. There are no other possibilities.
The physical body has gone nowhere?
GOD bless you.
Peace.Allah is not confined to any particular law or system like water going through a funnel out of necessity since the funnel somehow is so strong that it must be that way.
The matter is simple. You are experiencing information. When you dream you are experiencing information. When you are awake you are experiencing information. Every moment you "exist" you are experiencing information. If you do not experience having a body, that is information. If you do experience having a body that is information. What you "are" is "the information you are receiving in the moment" or whatever information you have access to in the moment.
The Qur'an gives numerous examples of Allah changing information easily and instantly, and information is what everything is and is what Allah creates and controls and can transform and destroy, and this is not just a "theory" of mine, I am using the word "information" to mean "everything" including "all systems, sciences, laws, concepts, thoughts, imaginings, desires, emotions, whatever else is experienced or "exists" in any sense anywhere".
Ideas like "matter" "physical body" and whatever else are just concepts particular to this moment. The nature of the reality we experience could be entirely different in an instant, and we could be informed or be left uninformed, but it doesn't "need" to be any particular way, the way people tend to imagine, and in their imaginings they really make a tremendous error often and become far too absorbed with "systems" and "sciences" and "it works this way or that way" which I have been trying to eliminate mostly by trying to let people know that regardless of any "system" or "science" they may experience at any moment, what is ultimately happening is that it is all information directly being created by Allah and animated by Allah and can easily be transformed or exchanged for some other information.
So there is no "how" about it, it is exactly as Allah creates, if Allah creates something in phases, if Allah creates a sense of distance between events or many events between two "points" (that is what "time" generally can be considered, a measurement between two points or events) it is all just as easy, and in any moment Allah can make things as if they never happened and it would be true.
If Allah creates some event, or some information, or someone that experiences "being" something in some particular way in some particular place, that is all possible and easy, and every component of whatever is experienced is information created by Allah alone who has the power to generate information.
So Allah can in an instant create for someone the experience of "Paradise", and can in an instant create for someone the experience of "being in Hell" and "being in the Real Hell", and whatever else, and even give in a moment all the experiences of "having memories about the day of Judgment" and whatever else. Time is not even an issue or something which Allah is conditioned by, "time" is just a concept created by Allah which can exist in some experiences of people.
Allah can make the "sky" appear a certain way to one person, and an entirely different way to another person, and then make them both agree it looks the same even though they are individually seeing something entirely different (but they have no access to the information that is "the experience of being" the other person).
I hope that helped. People mistake what I am saying for suggesting another system, I am not suggesting any system at all, I am saying all systems experienced by people are created by Allah and exist the moment they are experienced. If this is understood properly, it can end all arguments beyond the matter. It is other people who suggest systems, like some saying "it is this way" or "it is that way", I am saying "it can be this way or it can be that way, and if it is this way in the experience of someone, it is created by Allah, and if it is that way in the experience of someone it is created by Allah, everything is information created by Allah".
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No, that isn't what I asked you. God is described primitively at times in the Qur'an and other books. I am asking you particularly how "fun" and "boredom" operate. To think about that, you might realize something. I was asking you to consider your experience of "fun" and "boredom" and see how they operate and what causes them for you as a human being. If you read my questions again, you might see. I wasn't saying "where in the Qur'an does it say this" or "give me an example of something in the Qur'an about this", you can read the question again here
"Can you talk to me about "fun" and "boredom" in your experience? Can you describe these two concepts, and how they operate in your experience? Then you might realize that you are thinking of God as a human like yourself, and that "fun" and "boredom" are both conditions which do not act upon what can not be acted upon. If you describe how "fun" operates in your life, after thinking about it deeply "how do I have fun, how does it really work" "why do I become bored, how does it really work" then maybe you might understand why what you are saying is almost primitive seeming (though the primitive people may have been wise, I don't know)."
Sometimes I do serious and very elaborate things, because the core of it I may be bored or it's my way of having fun. So that's what I am assuming God is also being (you could say from my own limited human thinking capability), unless God is schizophrenic or is a monster in reality, especially seeing that He has another elaborate Afterlife present, where He will put people into heaven and hell (the very people He Himself controlled in the first place).
Peace.
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Sometimes I do serious and very elaborate things, because the core of it I may be bored or it's my way of having fun. So that's what I am assuming God is also being (you could say from my own limited human thinking capability), unless God is schizophrenic or is a monster in reality, especially seeing that He has another elaborate Afterlife present, where He will put people into heaven and hell (the very people He Himself controlled in the first place).
Peace.
Can you read my recent huge post which explains how and why that isn't possible actually?
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Speaking about polyandry and men being happy with it, of course they are. The use rostitutes all the time without the slightest dislike. What they do not want is responsibility or acknowledgement, but sharing women, oh yes, they are quite happy with it, those who do, of course. Obvioysly not all men are that type, Thank God.
Salaam
More man-hating from you.
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Peace,
Words don't have different meanings in different contexts. A clear, consistent text requires clear, consistent language. Context does not change meanings, it simply shows what a consistent meaning should be applied to.
Imraan
Agreed