Why does the Quran and Bible describe the Sun as going around the Earth?

FreedomStands

Wow, deep stuff.

I think we have to first acknowledge which reality we live in. We need to understand that reality and accept it. Having an "Eternal Truth" seems pointless in our reality. We need to understand what the truth is in this reality and take it from there. We know we exist, animals exist, gravity exists, stars exist. All these things have laws and physical attributes. We also have subjective reality which is actually the most important one in my opinion which also has bounds and limitations however it's a bit more difficult to test.

In short, we have the Quran. It claims to be a revelation from God. Any revelation of God is going to be the according to the reality of the world we live in. In order to verify truth God has given us science to verify it. If something in the Quran does not comply with science then either our science is wrong or the Quran is not the revelation of God. Science has been proven to be wrong many times, or to put it more accurately human interpretation of observations have been wrong many times. So either we need to check our observations more thoroughly or accept that the Quran is wrong or being ambiguous.

Yes, the reality you exist in though exists only as far as you can access it, and the only access you have to it is whatever information is available to you right "now". There is no revelation or word in this world, however false or however true, that does not come from the same ultimate generator of information. So it isn't a matter if this is a revelation from God or not. You doing diarrhea is a revelation from God as well. The point is how useful we can make it for ourselves in operating in the moment. The Qur'an never actually said in any definite way that the sun revolves around the earth, but even if it did say that, are you one to throw out an entire tool box set because it says "they both swim in their orbits" (which they even do, but lets say they don't even, and don't even appear to, and that same book said other things which may be used as "tools" would you reject all of it over that? That seems to be extremist and would be self-detrimental. Luckily the Qur'an doesn't say anything particularly wrong, but I am trying to make the point that even if it did say something that appeared strange or untrue, would you reject all the words because of some of the words?

Is the Qur'an any less "trash" than a tool box set, to someone who does not know how to use tools and can not find any use for them? If you can not use the currency, can you buy anything with it?

Science is a tool to help us understand what we are dealing with in the moment, and ultimately it is just information which exists and is relevant in this moment. There may be another kind of "moment" in which Science isn't the tool, but something else is the tool, and things are entirely different though they may seem to make perfect sense in that other moment.

I am not saying science is irrelevant, but I am saying the Eternal Truth is what does not fluctuate, and the sun and the moon and the orbits and the laws of science are all "information" and they don't "need" to exist, only the Eternal Truth is ever-existing, and that is where one's religious focus should be.

My_Name_is_Ted

I am not saying science is irrelevant, but I am saying the Eternal Truth is what does not fluctuate, and the sun and the moon and the orbits and the laws of science are all "information" and they don't "need" to exist, only the Eternal Truth is ever-existing, and that is where one's religious focus should be.

"only the Eternal Truth is ever-existing, and that is where one's religious focus should be" - How do we apply this? Not sure what you are saying that we should be doing.

FreedomStands

"only the Eternal Truth is ever-existing, and that is where one's religious focus should be" - How do we apply this? Not sure what you are saying that we should be doing.

I explain that here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129

My_Name_is_Ted

I explain that here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129

Sorry that still doesn't explain it. Was just an essay on your version of reality. What should we as human beings be doing on this Earth. I don't believe spending huge amounts of time constructing different versions of reality is one of them.

runninglikezebras

Quran-2133 ?It is He who created The Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them Swim (float) along in its own course.?
Qur'an 911-2 "By the sun and his brightness, And the moon when she followeth him"

Qur'an 3637-40 "A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness and the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."

The verses above are pretty clear to me. For example the Sun following the moon, the Sun runneth on unto a resting-place, the Sun not able to overtake the moon. God could have just put a few words in to say the Earth rotates but you mankind see it as the Sun and stars rising and setting.

In a separate note, can someone please advise me if i can get those dam captchas removed everytime I make a post. It's real annoying having to verify each post.

2133 tells us the sun and moon each have their own orbits (the sun around the black hole in the center of the universe). Meaning they are not in the same plane of orbit.
911-2 tells us the moon, orbiting around the earth, orbits around the sun.
3637-40 again tells us the moon has a seperate orbit. things in a different orbit can not overtake each other.

I find your understanding rather twisted and aimed at making it a joke.

My_Name_is_Ted

2133 tells us the sun and moon each have their own orbits (the sun around the black hole in the center of the universe). Meaning they are not in the same plane of orbit.
911-2 tells us the moon, orbiting around the earth, orbits around the sun.
3637-40 again tells us the moon has a seperate orbit. things in a different orbit can not overtake each other.

I find your understanding rather twisted and aimed at making it a joke.

Oh really. If you had no knowledge of the current science then you'd look up at the sky and would simply accept that the sun and stars orbit the earth. This was the thinking both before the Quran was revealed and after it until up to recent history.

Sorry but it's you who is twisting your understanding to make it fit with the general consensus of the world. I suppose you also accept evolution and believe that humans evolved from monkeys or that they evolved from simple cell organisms.

runninglikezebras

You are only confirming what I stated earlier, you have a predetermined agenda of making those verses look like they were written by a man that lived with a geocentrical concept of this world.

Wakas

Thanks. I have read that. Can you please explain why the Quran would say the moon follows the sun or that the sun cannot overtake the moon?

Re 912

I have not studied it in detail, but I can share some thoughts when I looked into it just now

the Arabic word "talaa" may not mean followed, or perhaps not in the way you take it. For example, when you look at all other occurrences of this word, it seems to suggest "recite". I'm not saying it means "recite" here but this may give us a clue.

recite

To repeat or utter aloud (something memorized or rehearsed), often before an audience

Here are some classical arabic dictionary (CAD) meanings

= Ta-Lam-Waw = To follow, walk behind, imitate, pursue, consecutive. To read, recite, peruse, rehearse, declare, meditate.
Sought repeatedly, collect.
Bond or obligation.
One who relieves or aids another in singing.

Here is what M.Asad says in his Quran translation notes regarding this usage

Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
912 and the moon as it reflects the sun!

Lit., ''as it follows it (talaha)", i.e., the sun. According to the great philologist Al-Farra, who lived in the second century after the hijrah, "the meaning is that the moon derives its light from the sun" (quoted by Razi). This is also Raghib's interpretation of the above phrase.

Lane lexicon also says similar about this usage
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000350.pdf

Thus, let me highlight some interesting CAD meanings imitated, rehearsed

When a person recites something, they are relaying a message from a source, e.g. text, screen, mind, often to another Similarly, if the moon were to recite/rehearse the sun, it would be relaying the light from it to another (i.e. us), which is what happens.

Thus, it could be translated as and the moon when (it) imitated/rehearsed/declared it/the sun
or even followed (as in imitated)

Interestingly, these 911-etc verses and others are often mentioned as being the oath verses, e.g. by the sun and its brightness, etc and often mention things that are wondrous or powerful or important to the people etc, and a bright full moon is often considered a wondrous sight, even today.
As a side note, this may imply the word al qamar / the moon, does not inherently mean full-moon, i.e. it can be the moon at any stage. Relevant for those discussing the meaning of shahr

the sun/moon not overtaking each other seems self explanatory, i.e. their motion/path/orbit is not tied together in the sense one could overtake the other
It also says the night cannot outstrip the day, which is interesting considering we know they both exist simultaneously on earth, the word here means one cannot get in front of the other, which again, fits.

By the way, i dont recommend relying on one translation only. Research the key words used, with CAD and a Quran concordance
e.g.

FLK ~orbit

Fa-Lam-Kaf = become round, anything circular, persist/persevere, ship, Ark, the place of the revolving of the stars, the celestial sphere, vault of heaven, firmament, surrounding spheres, sky, revolvement, circling, circuit, going to and fro, in a state of commotion, whirl of a spindle, one who goes round.

falak n.m. 2133, 3640

fulk n.com. 2164, 764, 1022, 1073, 1137, 1138, 1432, 1614, 1766, 2265, 2322, 2327, 2328, 26119, 2965, 3046, 3131, 3512, 3641, 37140, 4080, 4312, 4512

time/place appointed/established
http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(36383)

use
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Sonny

Sun does go around the Earth but only if you look from our perspective. Imagine you are trying to explain something to people centuries ago, I think this would be the best way. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
Peace

runninglikezebras

Good point Sonny. There is a remarkable property about those verses that makes it understandable both in ancient and modern times.

My_Name_is_Ted

You are only confirming what I stated earlier, you have a predetermined agenda of making those verses look like they were written by a man that lived with a geocentrical concept of this world.

That is a disappointing response.

runninglikezebras

There is no point in debating this further with someone who has a predetermined agenda to only take in consideration the geocentric understanding of these verses. Sorry to disappoint but I can't make you see what you are refusing to see. That's not within my power.

hawk99

Thanks. I have read that. Can you please explain why the Quran would say the moon follows the sun or that the sun cannot overtake the moon?

oh boy, nope first we see the sun, then we see the moon ooooooorrrrrrrrrr, first we see the
moon then we see the sun, I know that may be complicated, but just go outside and observe.

I am here to learn. I respect all religions. I'm here to challenge peoples thinking and hopefully understand/get to the truth.

You cannot learn with a bias. Truth seeking with a bias = denial.

Wow, deep stuff.

I think we have to first acknowledge which reality we live in. We need to understand that reality and accept it. Having an "Eternal Truth" seems pointless in our reality. We need to understand what the truth is in this reality and take it from there. We know we exist, animals exist, gravity exists, stars exist. All these things have laws and physical attributes.

We agree

Sun does go around the Earth but only if you look from our perspective. Imagine you are trying to explain something to people centuries ago, I think this would be the best way. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
Peace

My Name is Ted listen to Sonny.

God bless you

peace

My_Name_is_Ted

There is no point in debating this further with someone who has a predetermined agenda to only take in consideration the geocentric understanding of these verses. Sorry to disappoint but I can't make you see what you are refusing to see. That's not within my power.

Even if I did have a predetermined agenda each point I raised could be answered and shown that my view was incorrect even though I never accept it myself. The goal shouldn't be to get the person to accept something but to show clearly their arguments/views are incorrect. Anyone else reading them could easily come to that conclusion.

You seem to be insecure in your understanding of the Quran.

My_Name_is_Ted

Sun does go around the Earth but only if you look from our perspective. Imagine you are trying to explain something to people centuries ago, I think this would be the best way. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
Peace

I understand that. However I don't believe God is pointing out the obvious. I think there's more to it as even the Bible infers the Sun orbits the Earth.

My_Name_is_Ted

Re 912

I have not studied it in detail, but I can share some thoughts when I looked into it just now

the Arabic word "talaa" may not mean followed, or perhaps not in the way you take it. For example, when you look at all other occurrences of this word, it seems to suggest "recite". I'm not saying it means "recite" here but this may give us a clue.

recite

To repeat or utter aloud (something memorized or rehearsed), often before an audience