Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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(Old English Bible Clich?)
Diddest I not tell thee that thou couldest understand me?
Salaam FreedomStands
Madest my nose laugh!
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He killed someone which was a sin. The person he was trying to defend was a trouble causer. He should not have been defending him. He should have been just regardless of who the person was that he was defending. After killing one person he was about to kill another one until someone came to warn him. Luckily God had chosen him as a prophet and forgave him for his sins. So he did bad but repented which luckily for him and the rest of humanity is a grace from God. Of God was strict I don't think there would be many people entering the gardens of paradise.
I think the Qur'an story is a little different and generally depicts the Prophets each and all as incredibly soft-hearted nice people.
I also don't think killing is necessarily a sin, like in self defense, or defense of someone else, and in the Biblical legal sense you are supposed to defend people who are being chased or harmed or whatever. His killing in the Qur'an version was unintentional and had what he thought was a good cause initially too probably, so he is never depicted as a bad guy at all.
The Qur'an doesn't have very strict unrelenting laws, it seems to present a circumstantial picture of the world where sometimes war and fighting and killing is necessary and is part of life.
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@ Freedom i found your post on hate and fear very thought provoking and interesting. I gave the example of Moses (which would may be considered manslaughter in today's courts which is still a crime) but a further example of Gods forgiveness of sinners is when Adam and Eve sin, are punished and forgiven. Are the any verses in Quran that state God hates sinners? Have you checked out all the references to hate in Quran? Almost all the references I found mentioned hate in the context of disbelievers and backsliders hating the things that please God, and hating the truth.
Sura 3118 ....hatred flows out of their mouths ... die in your rage.There are 3 references I found that talk about believers hating
Sura 42 do not be provoked into aggression by your hatred of people who ....
Sura 591 the devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling
Sura 60.1 ..we denounce you and you will see nothing from us but animosity and hatred until you believe in God Alone.
This verse definitely seems to be saying we should express animosity and hatred towards others who do not worship God Alone. I would like to know others thoughts on this verse.Despite this verse, my understanding of Islam from reading the whole of Quran, is that it is a religion of mercy. God hates the sin but loves sinners since we are all less than perfect and do wrong continuously throughout our lives but God's love and mercy towards us keeps the gate of repentance open. God tells us in Quran that if we genuinely repent and seek Gods forgiveness we will be pardoned. Quran 3953 " Proclaim oh my servants Who exceeded the limits, never despair of Gods mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful.
I am wondering if the Arabic word in Quran that is translated as hate can also mean detest?
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I think the Qur'an story is a little different and generally depicts the Prophets each and all as incredibly soft-hearted nice people.
I also don't think killing is necessarily a sin, like in self defense, or defense of someone else, and in the Biblical legal sense you are supposed to defend people who are being chased or harmed or whatever. His killing in the Qur'an version was unintentional and had what he thought was a good cause initially too probably, so he is never depicted as a bad guy at all.
The Qur'an doesn't have very strict unrelenting laws, it seems to present a circumstantial picture of the world where sometimes war and fighting and killing is necessary and is part of life.
No it doesn't. There were many different kinds of prophets. Some soft hearted, some strict, some highly intelligent, some simple, some kings, some slaves, etc. King Solomon was about to punish the Hoopoe bird for not being present, he threatened the sun worshipping queen with war. Each prophet was human and humans we all have different personalities. That's how God has created us. Some of use are more forgiving than others, some more patient than others. Bottom line is that everyone has to obey Gods laws whether they be prophets or not. If they make mistakes whether they are prophets or not and genuinely repent and God wishes to forgive them then they are forgiven.
God forgave Moses hence it proves he sinned. If Moses did not sin God would never mention that he forgave him. It's not for me to pass judgement on Moses or anyone else, that's for God to do. All I can do is observe and give my opinion and thoughts on someone's actions. If I feel it doesn't comply with Gods laws then I can say.
The Quran is strict on what the law is. However some laws have lesser punishments in certain situations. For example if someone is murdered the family of the murdered one can request life for life punishment or blood money. For adultery it's lashes. God commands that we have to testify for justice even if it's against our closest relatives or even ourselves. So if I kill someone I must accept my own punishment. Maybe this way God can offer me hope of salvation on the Day of Judgement.
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@ Freedom i found your post on hate and fear very thought provoking and interesting. I gave the example of Moses (which would may be considered manslaughter in today's courts which is still a crime) but a further example of Gods forgiveness of sinners is when Adam and Eve sin, are punished and forgiven. Are the any verses in Quran that state God hates sinners? Have you checked out all the references to hate in Quran? Almost all the references I found mentioned hate in the context of disbelievers and backsliders hating the things that please God, and hating the truth.
Sura 3118 ....hatred flows out of their mouths ... die in your rage.There are 3 references I found that talk about believers hating
Sura 42 do not be provoked into aggression by your hatred of people who ....
Sura 591 the devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling
Sura 60.1 ..we denounce you and you will see nothing from us but animosity and hatred until you believe in God Alone.
This verse definitely seems to be saying we should express animosity and hatred towards others who do not worship God Alone. I would like to know others thoughts on this verse.Despite this verse, my understanding of Islam from reading the whole of Quran, is that it is a religion of mercy. God hates the sin but loves sinners since we are all less than perfect and do wrong continuously throughout our lives but God's love and mercy towards us keeps the gate of repentance open. God tells us in Quran that if we genuinely repent and seek Gods forgiveness we will be pardoned. Quran 3953 " Proclaim oh my servants Who exceeded the limits, never despair of Gods mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful.
I am wondering if the Arabic word in Quran that is translated as hate can also mean detest?
Here you go, you might enjoy my hate speech to huruf which is followed by some quotes, and here is what I've been writing about Mercy just now
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607179.msg362438#msg362438
"also I just thought of something interesting which is that its so easy to be genuinely humble, its just that people don't realize how to do it, but the easiest way I think to achieve it probably is to realize Allah is the only power that can do anything freely and all information or things are in a sense equally powerless before the power of Allah and in the same plight as we are
(The Sole Power being Allah Alone) which only the humble can accept it kind of proves who is humble or not
and this medicine is the hardest thing for people to swallow sometimes
but it gives the most relief and peace
and even joy, joy that Allah has done us so much good when Allah never had to
and that we didn't even "earn it" that Allah freely gave us good
then Allah's names make perfect sense
as being the ultimate truths
that Allah indeed is the boundless in kindness
because if Allah did it "because" that would mean bounded or condition basedbut Allah is unconditionally
for no reason other than purely being loving to us
selecting us and giving us pleasure and creating us
and guiding us
and what a huge huge huge favor it is
like it can not even be compared to anything
that it makes someone want to just fall to the floor in prostration crying in gratefulness
because Allah could have just as easily destroyed us
or harmed us in any way
but instead freely chose to bestow goodness on us
then it all makes sense "which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?"
Ar Rahman, that whole surah
makes sense then
that Allah is saying that Allah did this all freely, not because you deserved it
you're nothing at all if Allah didn't make you
and people are so ungrateful because they think they somehow deserved it or that Allah owes them
exactly
its not a test its Allah creating what Allah wills, and the word "test" means "proving" in this case, "to make evident" "to make manifest"
so Allah makes his creation manifest, makes it exist
"proves" by making the kaffir the kaffir, the muslim the muslim
and makes it apparent by what they end up being and doingand they think Allah makes a mistake? Allah repeatedly says "I do no wrong"
Allah is saying that Allah did not make a mistake
Allah is doing it on purpose, and it is deliberately created this way as Allah wills and intends
they really think they can fight the will of Allah? even that silly thought in their mind is from Allah
they are utterly deceived
and to know that Allah has favored some and others are made for the fire
is the scariest thing
truly tremendous
to realize the unstoppable power of Allah
the whole Qur'an
is entirely consistent
it really truly has no contradiction
or confusion
once people unlock the key
goodnight! Thank you for talking to me, have a beautiful time Insha'Allah!"
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No it doesn't. There were many different kinds of prophets. Some soft hearted, some strict, some highly intelligent, some simple, some kings, some slaves, etc. King Solomon was about to punish the Hoopoe bird for not being present, he threatened the sun worshipping queen with war. Each prophet was human and humans we all have different personalities. That's how God has created us. Some of use are more forgiving than others, some more patient than others. Bottom line is that everyone has to obey Gods laws whether they be prophets or not. If they make mistakes whether they are prophets or not and genuinely repent and God wishes to forgive them then they are forgiven.
God forgave Moses hence it proves he sinned. If Moses did not sin God would never mention that he forgave him. It's not for me to pass judgement on Moses or anyone else, that's for God to do. All I can do is observe and give my opinion and thoughts on someone's actions. If I feel it doesn't comply with Gods laws then I can say.
The Quran is strict on what the law is. However some laws have lesser punishments in certain situations. For example if someone is murdered the family of the murdered one can request life for life punishment or blood money. For adultery it's lashes. God commands that we have to testify for justice even if it's against our closest relatives or even ourselves. So if I kill someone I must accept my own punishment. Maybe this way God can offer me hope of salvation on the Day of Judgement.
I don't find Solomon's character consistent with actually intending to punish the bird, since he is the same Solomon who was amused with the ant's speech and so grateful for it and loved his horses. I think he was likely a fun character like myself.
There was one story of one character leaving his domain in irritation and getting lost in the forest and repenting, was it a sin that he got lost in the forest? I repent even when I see something bad happen or someone else does something bad. I'm not saying Musa didn't do anything wrong by the killing, I'm saying that it wasn't actually the same as a pre-meditated murder, it was depicted in the Qur'an as accidental, and I also ask for forgiveness when I make a mistake too, I am not saying it wasn't harmful or wrong, I am merely saying the Qur'an depicts it as unintentional, and God can count it as a sin or not, that is up to God, but my point was different.
If God was so strict as you are giving the impression, why then was Musa allowed to run and not told to go face his judgment by the law?
Why then was the young boy killed and Musa was shocked and horrified at what seemed an injustice?
Justice is whatever Allah makes it be, and if I killed someone on accident, I'd run too, no way would I put myself at the mercy of the evil government. If I killed someone on purpose, I'd run as well!
I also would not testify against my family unless they really were bad, and I'd promote them to run as well if necessary and seek the forgiveness of Allah, never to put ourselves at the mercy of the human beings, but at the mercy of Allah who truly has the power of salvation.
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God hates the sin but loves sinners since we are all less than perfect and do wrong continuously throughout our lives but God's love and mercy towards us keeps the gate of repentance open. God tells us in Quran that if we genuinely repent and seek Gods forgiveness we will be pardoned. Quran 3953 " Proclaim oh my servants Who exceeded the limits, never despair of Gods mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Need to bear in mind what gets thrown into hell, the sin or the sinner? God does does not want to throw us into hell but knows our hearts well and those who choose to turn to God he helps them by guiding them or maybe just forgiving them. If you think about this life has been designed to get us into the gardens of paradise. 1 good deed is worth 10 bad ones. Our suffering can be another oppurtunity to turn to God. Anyone who has been given wealth and spends instead of hoarding counts as good, smiling and saying nice things are good deeds, looking after your parents is good deeds, sharing food with friends is a good deed, helping animals is a good deed.
I find it strange that for simply a few years of living on earth and doing some good deeds humans are offered an eternity of bliss in paradise. Is that just? Is that fair?
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I also would not testify against my family unless they really were bad, and I'd promote them to run as well if necessary and seek the forgiveness of Allah, never to put ourselves at the mercy of the human beings, but at the mercy of Allah who truly has the power of salvation.
You do realise that you would be breaking God's law which may land you in a bad place, don't you? If we are dealt unfairly by humans in this life it may actually help to remove some of our sins since God will correct the injustice on the Day of Judgement.
Need to remember on the Day of Judgement all relationships will be broken.
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If God was so strict as you are giving the impression, why then was Musa allowed to run and not told to go face his judgment by the law?
Because he was chosen as a prophet from when he was born. If it weren't for that he may have had to face justice. Also bear in mind that Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land of Israel. Maybe that was part of his punishment?
God is strict. Justice will either be done here or on the Day of Judgement. The person who was killed had rights. I believe on the Day of Judgment he will be able to ask for justice. God may simply give him entry to heaven and a few extra palaces so he feels that he has been dealt with justly.
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Need to bear in mind what gets thrown into hell, the sin or the sinner? God does does not want to throw us into hell but knows our hearts well and those who choose to turn to God he helps them by guiding them or maybe just forgiving them. If you think about this life has been designed to get us into the gardens of paradise. 1 good deed is worth 10 bad ones. Our suffering can be another oppurtunity to turn to God. Anyone who has been given wealth and spends instead of hoarding counts as good, smiling and saying nice things are good deeds, looking after your parents is good deeds, sharing food with friends is a good deed, helping animals is a good deed.
I find it strange that for simply a few years of living on earth and doing some good deeds humans are offered an eternity of bliss in paradise. Is that just? Is that fair?
Which is exactly why this framework concept or "fairness" and "this is justice" is not accurate, it doesn't fit, and it also isn't what the Qur'an really says about the matter.
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You do realise that you would be breaking God's law which may land you in a bad place, don't you? If we are dealt unfairly by humans in this life it may actually help to remove some of our sins since God will correct the injustice on the Day of Judgement.
Need to remember on the Day of Judgement all relationships will be broken.
I think it is alright to try to survive by whatever means necessary in order to continue if possible to do good to counteract evilness.
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Because he was chosen as a prophet from when he was born. If it weren't for that he may have had to face justice. Also bear in mind that Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land of Israel. Maybe that was part of his punishment?
God is strict. Justice will either be done here or on the Day of Judgement. The person who was killed had rights. I believe on the Day of Judgment he will be able to ask for justice. God may simply give him entry to heaven and a few extra palaces so he feels that he has been dealt with justly.
So are you under the impression God owes us something?
I don't think that God carries on punishment like that, and God is easy in giving forgiveness and can give it completely in an instant. I don't think him being a Prophet made it only alright for him to run, but that anyone should behave like a human and try to survive if they can and defend their life while they have it. Also, people who are so strict with their idea of justice are threatening and can not be trusted really. Perhaps there is more honor among thieves.
Consider that all the Prophets were generally on the wrong side of the law, they were breaking the peace and then even killing many more in war, and were generally considered terrorists and villains by their opposition. Sometimes it is necessary to break the law, overthrow governments, kill people, and do whatever it takes to survive, while keeping in mind God is the decider now and later and always.
It was Satan who didn't ask for forgiveness and took the aspect of judgment more than seeking mercy.
So I don't believe one should give up their ability to survive more in the world and potentially do more good should be given up for any reason. In the case of Joseph, he was not given a death sentence but went to jail for protection from women, where he could focus and be safe.
Abraham was a terrorist as well, he reviled the religion of the people and destroyed their property. He was on the wrong side of the law, but the right side of Allah.
So we must be willing to do what it takes to get the ultimate pleasure and avoid trouble and pain.
Abraham nearly killed his own son.
If you think this life has been about justice really, I think that isn't really the message of the Qur'an.
No doubt it promotes goodness and justice, but the real important factor is that Allah can do anything and we can ask Allah for forgiveness and help and should survive in order to do as much good as we can and have no need to hand ourselves over to be harmed by people.
Did Muhammed just lay down and let the Polytheists just trample all over him? No, he was instructed to fight for his life, and the Muslims went and cut their throats in defense, and they were the bad guys to the Polytheists and also breaking the law of the Polytheists and offending the authorities.
Regardless of all that, too much of a slant on justice makes a person untrustworthy. Musa was trustworthy, the one guy murdered a young boy in-front of him and Musa didn't report him to the authorities or try to harm him afterwords.
My utterly corrupt moral compass comes from the Qur'an, the focus is on survival and the best results. Avoid trouble as much as possible, and never put yourself in the hands of the enemy, and the enemy is anyone who will harm you, trap you, punish you, condemn you, etc. The greatest potential enemy of all is God, God can not be outrun or defeated, so we ask God to help us and be on our side and have mercy, and we try not to do wrong by God. Killing a person in defense of yourself or another is not wrong though, but standing by and letting injustice occur is wrong. God is the Witness and God is the Judge.
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I think it is alright to try to survive by whatever means necessary in order to continue if possible to do good to counteract evilness.
The keywords are "I think". Adam and Eve thought it would be OK to eat the fruit. The brothers of Joseph thought it would be OK to throw their brother down a well and make up for it by doing righteousness later on. The pagans think/thought it was OK to make partners with God since these partners could intercede for them or could be used to communicate their wishes to God.
Maybe according to you it's OK to rob the rich and give to the poor? Maybe it's OK to break your fast whenever you feel like it or maybe not fast at all and instead go and do some good by helping the needy?
Please do think and wake up.
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So are you under the impression God owes us something?
Not sure what you're referring to here so apologies if I have misunderstood. Yes God owes us something. God is our Creator. He owes us food, clothing, brains so we can understand, guidance, mercy and forgiveness if we repent. He made us to live in a world where we are dependent on him. He didn't make us independent so that we can make our food from nothing. He made us so that we have the ability to learn, to have a wondrous brain which has a huge capacity to learn and take things in. God needs to provide the means to utilise this and all the other senses he has given us. God hasn't made us perfect which is one of the properties we can use to distinguish between us and him, God is perfect we are not. If we make a mistake I think it's fair to have the oppurtunity to repent. Some people were always going to be evil and lie and make up false things in the name of God. God owes us guidance incase we forget and incase the revelations become corrupted by other humans.
All of creation is dependent on God, that's how they have been created, God says in the Quran it's up to him to provide sustance to all living things. Those who accept it and obey, God is pleased with them.
Can we demand anything from? I don't think so. Can we ask and pray for it in a humble manner, by all means.
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I don't think him being a Prophet made it only alright for him to run, but that anyone should behave like a human and try to survive if they can and defend their life while they have it.
You should read the example of Cain and Abel. Abel said go ahead and kill me it's not for me to retaliate, maybe some of my sins will removed and given to you.
In the battles of the prophet Mohammed the believers are warned never to turn their backs to the enemies unless it be a stratagem of war. If any did so they would die in the end anyway and face God at some point.
So as a believer it is your duty to turn yourself in if you have done a crime. The Quran tells us that when we know that we are on the right side of the law we demand justice, but when we are on the wrong side of it we try to escape it. This is wrong. You can't escape from justice.
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Consider that all the Prophets were generally on the wrong side of the law, they were breaking the peace and then even killing many more in war, and were generally considered terrorists and villains by their opposition. Sometimes it is necessary to break the law, overthrow governments, kill people, and do whatever it takes to survive, while keeping in mind God is the decider now and later and always.
Which prophets were on the wrong side of the law?
The prophet Mohammed was exercising his right to pray freely and call people to a new religion (which is in fact the old original religion but the pagans considered it new). He did not force anyone. The pagans didn't like it when they saw people converting. Maybe they were scared of losing their power or felt insulted/offended that their cherished religion the religions of their fathers was going to disappear. It was the pagans who attacked the prophet and his followers. It was they who declared war. The Quran clearly says that the believers can only fight those who fight them. The believers cannot go and force religion on people even if they win in a battle and take over a place.
I'm not sure how you get the idea that it's "Sometimes it is necessary to break the law, overthrow governments, kill people, and do whatever it takes to survive". Seems like you haven't read the Quran properly.
We cannot overthrow a government. If the government orders the army to kill you, you have a right to defend yourself or leave the country. Leaving the country is actually best since what's the point in fighting against a group of people who don't want you. God will provide a better place.
So it's never necessary to break the law or be the first to attack people. If we don't like the law then we have the choice to leave. There is no need to kill people. All disputes can be handled peacefully. If someone wants your shirt, give them your cloak as well.
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Abraham was a terrorist as well, he reviled the religion of the people and destroyed their property. He was on the wrong side of the law, but the right side of Allah.
Abraham was not a terrorist. He did not frighten others. He was alone, he could do no harm to anyone. He offended the pagans, that is not terrorism.
The law that Abraham broke was that he damaged someone else's property. He was young and if justice were to be served he should have been made to pay for the damages. The prophet Mohammed was ordered to only defend himself if he was attacked. He never broke any law.
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The greatest potential enemy of all is God, God can not be outrun or defeated, so we ask God to help us and be on our side and have mercy, and we try not to do wrong by God. Killing a person in defense of yourself or another is not wrong though, but standing by and letting injustice occur is wrong. God is the Witness and God is the Judge.
It's just wrong of you to say that God is the greatest potential enemy of all.
When Moses saw that his fellow man was having a dispute he should have found out what the dispute was over. If his fellow man had said that his brother or somone close in his family had been murdered by the Egyptian then Moses should have taken him to the authorities. There is no reason at all for him to strike and kill him.
God has given his law to us, we are expected to follow it and administer it even if it goes against us.
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The keywords are "I think". Adam and Eve thought it would be OK to eat the fruit. The brothers of Joseph thought it would be OK to throw their brother down a well and make up for it by doing righteousness later on. The pagans think/thought it was OK to make partners with God since these partners could intercede for them or could be used to communicate their wishes to God.
Maybe according to you it's OK to rob the rich and give to the poor? Maybe it's OK to break your fast whenever you feel like it or maybe not fast at all and instead go and do some good by helping the needy?
Please do think and wake up.
Is it that you think I'm not thinking?
Adam and Eve were right, they were forgiven immediately, there was nothing wrong with eating the fruit, it wasn't the "cause" of anything, it was an event which demonstrated the techniques of Satan in a harmless way, they became guilty after they did it. I would not be guilty if I killed my enemies to survive.
What those brothers did was very wrong and had bad intentions as well, and they hid it and hurt their father for years, yet it had good things come out of it.
Allah is writing all these stories. Allah says to repent if you make a mistake, and does not give the message of handing yourself over to your enemies. Your sense of justice may be a bit skewed or too extreme. God can do anything and make anything true and can forgive anything, or is it you believe in the God locked in a legalistic mire, who needs a human sacrifice to forgive the sins of mankind? Are you one of those who might say Allah's hand is fettered? What do you think the partners people used to make with God were? The ancient God's were just words for things, like "Time" and "Justice" and God is not fettered, so if you make a mistake, then continue to survive to do good another day is my advice and even seems to be the advice of the Qur'an. Were Adam and Eve immediately killed? No, not even Satan was immediately killed. Allah is the one who gives reprieve and gives a chance to amend, not a strict legalistic God because God is free of such things and can do anything and it is on God who we rely for everything, so if one makes a mistake, they should ask for forgiveness. Was Cain killed immediately? No, he was guided. Allah is the greatest.