Fitna/Test/Trial (54:27, 74:31, 17:60..) ?
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Peace all,
The she-camel was NOT a TEST for the believers or Saleh - ie. those who respected the inherent right of the animal to drink and feed off the resources that God provides. The test was only for the rejecters.
The NUMBER is similarly therefore a TEST for rejecters - they are exposed through it.
I think the she-camel in the same way than the number of the guardians of the Fire is a test for those who reject the whole message or a part of it.
Peace
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Peace Marie,
I don't think i've understood properly, please explain again what the reasoning is acc to the ayats in question, thanks!
Are you saying that the count (19) is a test/trial like that of the she camel? So if one rejects the test, i.e 19/the count/she camel, one is an unbeliever as they fail to recognize it as a sign? If one accepts the 19/the count/she camel and it's right to exist (as a sign for e.g) one is a believer and is not affected by the test?
Nadia
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Salaam Nadia,
Sorry for the confusion, if you read my last post Another Running Like Zebras in Submitters / Code 19 category, you will understand better my statement.
The she-camel is a test for those who reject the message of Salih and the code 19 is a test for those who reject a part of this reading (9128-129)..
None knows their final meaning (of such as the Essence of God, His Throne, His Book of Decree, the Eternity) but Allah. Those who are well founded in knowledge understand why the allegories have been used and they keep drawing lessons from them (37) (7431).
The code 19 is a good illustration of 37.
Peace
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peace be upon you hlatif,
Salam All,
Idris wrote
agreed, but we still should not follow The God blindly but use reason and logic to find out why He ordered something
Can you elaborate on this point? and what are your proofs from the Qur'an?
ThanksHussein
I mean that we should verify what is in this reading as well as we do with everything else and see if it is the truth before excepting it as The God's words, this includes His commands which we should not just say "we should obey it just because it says The God said so" but we should say "we should obey it because (insert a/the reason why The God forbade it)"
2573 And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s signs/verses, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
482 Do they not reflect on the reading? If it was from any other than The God they would have found in it much discrepancy.
i could provide more, but those came to my mind automatically
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Peace Marie, all
I understand what you have made clear!
I have another question though...what about those that accept the 19 as a sign but do not reject part of the message?
Could this be the test? Those that reject would take it to the extreme, maybe putting their own opinion over that of the message thereby exposing themselves?
Those who are well founded in knowledge understand why the allegories have been used and they keep drawing lessons from them (37) (7431).
No doubt brother Kyle would be overjoyed! )
The code 19 is a good illustration of 37.
I agree, the way it is majorly today and anything in which one's own opinion or ego becomes more important than the actual message would be an illustration of 37.
Nadia
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Peace Marie,
The 'Fitna' is not the object or the number (such as the camel or 19) but what is done with them (or not done)...
What is the purpose of 19? Was it just to create chaos and camps of those 'for' and those 'against'?
Or, are we missing its purpose and thus falling into the fitna?
All these are questions I do not have the certainty of answering at this stage...
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Peace Nadia, Layth, all
I understand what you have made clear!
I have another question though...what about those that accept the 19 as a sign but do not reject part of the message?
What you mean by the acceptance of the code 19?
What does it prove for you?
Could this be the test? Those that reject would take it to the extreme, maybe putting their own opinion over that of the message thereby exposing themselves?
This count (19) is not a test/temptation for those who say "We believe in it (the book), all is from our Lord" (37). It is a test/temptation for those who reject a part of the book and lose their faith about all its verses/sign.
Those who use the code 19 to prove the theory about 9128-129 cannot say "all is from our Lord"
The she-camel is both a visible sign (1759) and a test (5427), the count of the keepers of the fire is only a trial/temptation not a sign. We have to reject a temptation and keep our faith firm and not lose it.
In 2102, there is a good lesson for us "..They did not teach anyone until they would Say ?We are a test, so do not lose faith!?
The 'Fitna' is not the object or the number (such as the camel or 19) but what is done with them (or not done)...
I agree, the code 19 is one of the purpose of this test which leads people to fall into the fitna/rejection of two sign/verses of this reading 9128-129. I think that answers my first question
How could we be tested by the number of the guardians of the Fire which is described in 7426-29?
If we don't reject this temptation , we will fall into rejection of some verse/sign of the God's book.
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Peace Marie,
What you mean by the acceptance of the code 19?
What does it prove for you?
Meaning an acceptance of a sign as present, thats all.
I don't know what it proves for me, or what benefit it has for me in particular as i'm still studying both sides...I asked this question on the basis that there are many people who believe in some kind of pattern in the reading, of a number, that does not appear to be random and for them it increases their faith...these particular people do not disbelieve in any part of the reading, but their faith increases all the same...for them it's just another one of God's signs like the sun rising.
I would like to know what your interpretation says on the behalf of people like them who do not reject any part of the reading...where do they stand in this trial?
By the way, not everyone will be satisfied with anothers explanation of what it proves for them...as we are all different and see things differently, as long as they increase in faith and don't reject the message, i don't see what the issue would be...Would like your observations please
Nadia
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Salam Nadia
Peace Marie,
What you mean by the acceptance of the code 19?
What does it prove for you?
Meaning an acceptance of a sign as present, thats all.
The count of the Fire keepers is not sign/ayat but only fitna/trial/temptation for those who reject..
When those who use the code 19 to prove their theory about 9128-129 said don't reject this fitna, if we believe in the book, that would only increase our faith and we should say "all is from our Lord"There are many people who believe in some kind of pattern in the reading, of a number, that does not appear to be random.
I think this is the seductive aspect of this temptation like for the people of Moses when they made from their ornaments a calf body which has a lowing (714, IMHO. We can consider this lowing as a one of the seductive aspects of this temptation (the calf).
and for them it increases their faith...these particular people do not disbelieve in any part of the reading, but their faith increases all the same...for them it's just another one of God's signs like the sun rising.
I would like to know what your interpretation says on the behalf of people like them who do not reject any part of the reading...where do they stand in this trial?
All what I can say, the wise attitude is to reject the temptation and not to fall in it whatever their seductuve aspects. Without this seductive aspect, it would not be a true temptation for those who see 19 everywhere twisted
"19", the count of the Fire keepers is decribed in the reading as a fitna not an ayat/sign like the she-camel. Our faith should be increased only by the God's signs.
May the God guide us to the straight path
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Peace Marie,
Thank you for the explanation, as the count is the trial, what about the sign which is 19?
7430
Over it is nineteen.The count of 19 is a trial, but not the sign 19 itself.
"19", the count of the Fire keepers is decribed in the reading as a fitna not an ayat/sign like the she-camel.
Please explain how 19 is different is different from the she camel, i didn't understand the difference as they both appear to be signs except what is done with them...
Tia sister!
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Peace Marie,
Thank you for the explanation, as the count is the trial, what about the sign which is 19?
7430
Over it is nineteen.The count of 19 is a trial, but not the sign 19 itself.
We have to distinguish between the ayats/verses and what is said in the ayat as fitna or ayat/sign.
I believe in 7430 in the same way than 7431, the two are ayat; the truth. Some ayat gives us good news and other ayat are for warning.
We have to believe in all ayat of the book.7426-31 is like 1543-44
1543.?And Hell, for all of those, shall be the appointed place.?
1544.?It has seven gates, for every gate will be an assigned segment from them.?"19", the count of the Fire keepers is decribed in the reading as a fitna not an ayat/sign like the she-camel.
Please explain how 19 is different is different from the she camel, i didn't understand the difference as they both appear to be signs except what is done with them...
I think you confuse between the ayat and what is said in it as fitna or ayat, 7430-31 and 5427 are three ayats of the book.
7430 is like 1544 and I believe in all ayat of the book.
Peace sister Nadia
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"19", the count of the Fire keepers is decribed in the reading as a fitna not an ayat/sign like the she-camel.
Please explain how 19 is different is different from the she camel, i didn't understand the difference as they both appear to be signs except what is done with them...
Peace all,
Marie is fabricating her own formulation if this based on her own preconceived ideas. The count (19) is said to be a sign in 7435, a great one even.
Now if the count and the she camel are signs, and we know that it was a sin to kill the she-camel - then what Marie is attempting to do is to kill the sign of the count. To do away with it with her words. To advocate people to discredit it, to ignore it, to forget about it.
The issue regarding 9128-129 is not dependent on the 19 sign. Marie is attempting to intertwine the two things. This is wrong.
I do not believe that the whole truth is yet known about the initials as much as some segments of the 19ers/submitters may think. There is still plenty of unexplained things within the initials that I think will emerge in the fullness of time. We just have to be patient and strive to understand more.
But you must not try to 'kill' the sign; it disturbs and tests the unbelievers only.
Regards.
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Peace all,
The count (19) is said to be a sign in 7435, a great one even.
Only conjecture and misleading people from the principal message about the warning to mankind
- It is one of the great ones.
- A warning to mankind.
the Fire/saqar (726-31,42) is for the the criminals, those who reject
The crimminels are those who were not of the Musalleen (7443).
Peace
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Peace all,
The count (19) is said to be a sign in 7435, a great one even.
Only conjecture and misleading people from the principal message about the warning to mankind
- It is one of the great ones.
- A warning to mankind.
Rubbish. Marie you are beginning to show signs of blindness to plain verses now. Is it a conjecture that 7431 has a final sentence that addresses 'lil bashari'?
7431 ....wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari
and
7435 Natheeran lilbashari
The warning and reminder are for mankind thus there is grammatical and contextual evidence here that links these two verses.
Your post on the other hand IS misleading people reading this to a very biased view of these verses based on your own personal rejection of the 19 sign.
Peace.
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Peace all,
The count (19) is said to be a sign in 7435, a great one even.
Only conjecture and misleading people from the principal message about the warning to mankind
- It is one of the great ones.
- A warning to mankind.
Rubbish. Marie you are beginning to show signs of blindness to plain verses now. Is it a conjecture that 7431 has a final sentence that addresses 'lil bashari'?
7431 ....wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari
and
7435 Natheeran lilbashari
Sorry, you misunderstood what I mean by conjecture, it is about what you have said in your last post
The count (19) is said to be a sign in 7435, a great one even.
You understanding is absed on conjecture because The word ayat/sign doesn't exist in 7435. You said 7435 speaks about the count 19 is also guessing work.
In the light of the context 7431 and 7435 are about saqar/the Fire.
I will explain my reasonnig soon GW
Peace
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Peace all,
After reading the chapter 74, I read 7431 in a new way, it is better to read this verse in arabic to understand well what I mean by this new reading.
It is also important to translate word for word the verse 7431 in order to see the link between the sentences of the arabic text. The PM translation is a bit approximate and the link between the sentences is fuzzy.
All new translation are welcomePM
7431. And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say ?What did God mean with an example such as this?? It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him. And it is but a reminder for mankind.Wama jaAAalna as-habaalnnari illa mala-ikatan wamajaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheenakafaroo liyastayqina allatheena ootoo alkitaba wayazdada allatheena amanoo eemanan wala yartaba allatheena ootoo alkitaba waalmu/minoona waliyaqoola allatheena feequloobihim maradun wa alkafiroona mathaarada Allahu bihatha mathalan kathalikayudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashaowama yaAAlamu junooda rabbika illa huwa wamahiya illa thikra lilbashari
We can distinguish three paragraphs
And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt,
Wama jaAAalna as-haba alnnari illa mala-ikatan liyastayqina allatheena ootoo alkitaba wayazdada allatheena amanoo eemanan wala yartaba allatheena ootoo alkitaba waalmu/minoona
and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??
wamajaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheena kafaroowaliyaqoola allatheena feequloobihim maradun wa alkafiroona mathaarada Allahu bihatha mathalan
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him. And it is but a reminder for mankind.
kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashaowama yaAAlamu junooda rabbika illa huwa wamahiya illa thikra lilbashari
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Peace be upon you all,
I doubt that the true TRIAL(fitna) would wait so long to be revealed, the "she camel" was right there to be the TRIAL, it did not come to the people 1400 years later when they were in the graves.
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Peace,
Peace be upon you all,
I doubt that the true TRIAL(fitna) would wait so long to be revealed, the "she camel" was right there to be the TRIAL, it did not come to the people 1400 years later when they were in the graves.
Kyle this is interesting coming from you. The camel was a part of creation at some stage so the camel (as an animal) actually was there thousands if not many many thousands of years before.
Unless you are suggesting like traditionalists do that this individual camel was sent down from the sky in an instant?
Regards.
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Peace,
Peace all,
After reading the chapter 74, I read 7431 in a new way, it is better to read this verse in arabic to understand well what I mean by this new reading.
So this is a new reading if not a definitive one.
It is also important to translate word for word the verse 7431 in order to see the link between the sentences of the arabic text. The PM translation is a bit approximate and the link between the sentences is fuzzy.
All new translation are welcome )Marie I'm going to suggest you read Edip's article on the meanings of the words in this surah.
http//19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0
There he discusses many of the misconceptions with this block of verses. It is pointless for me to repeat them here unnecessarily.
We can distinguish three paragraphs
And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt,
How do the guardians of the Fire do these things according to your new reading?
How do they stop your doubt?
and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??
So the test is for rejecters. Have you rejected the count?
Is this not speaking to you then?
The 9128-129 issue was much later than the understanding of the basic 19 sign. It has nothing to do with this. So please do not throw in that red herring.
Just answer whether you have rejected the sign of the count (19) or not. Then you will know who the verse addresses.
Peace.
