Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?

JavaLatte

The sun does not revolve around the Earth. This can quite easily be refuted by science and in that through empirical studies which hardly can be refuted in themselves.

At least you could see with your eyes that the sun is moving. I hope you won't lie about it.

Man_of_Faith

So you are convinced by religious people that the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it. Oh God in that case.

JavaLatte

So you are convinced by religious people that the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it. Oh God in that case.

Allah Who made me aware about this. Praise be to my Rabb, my Teacher. http//3.bp.blogspot.com/-yH4Y8RvQvqc/TvjOQgHW6eI/AAAAAAAAAic/X5vEH21CXEA/s400/heart%2Bemoticon.png

hawk99

No, I'd probably be able to communicate with Man of Faith better if he was a Sufi Mystic but his system is developed through what he tells me was a pretty difficult process of figuring out the "meaning of each letter" somehow, maybe by looking at other words that use those single letters (I'm not sure on this or how he derived the meanings of the letters or how the initials of the Qur'an like Alif Laam Ra helped, but he said they helped somehow), then adding those meanings together or combining them to come out with a message surprisingly similar to the New Testament Bible which he considers as presenting a more accurate message than the Qur'an (in its current translations), he bases his idea of "accuracy" it seems on the belief that there is only God (which is fine by me so far) but that we must work towards this spiritual assimilation and leaving behind of matter to enter a purely spiritual realm of non-material non-bodily experiences (so in this sense similar to the Gnostics, though he doesn't like to be associated with Gnosticism).
We're fine with Valentinianism if it is understood in a careful way, but dealing with Man of Faith can be incredibly difficult since we don't have access to his lexicon or codex of letter meanings.

Basically it is almost a sure bet that the Qur'an will almost never say what it is normally translated to say, and it must say something Pauline in nature in order to be "accurate", but even Paul would have been willing to accept the Old Testament and generally had the normal or common understanding of it, whereas nothing is true at all unless it speaks of the "spiritual assimilation" and "leaving behind of matter/beast body" that Man of Faith has determined (how?) is more "accurate" than things that don't say that (how though? how can you tell if one is true and the other isn't?).

So that is a brief little history of Man of Faith.

He hasn't completed his studies or made any codex as far as I know, so one is left "taking his word for it" and trusting that he has studied diligently to determine the meanings of single letters somehow (how exactly?)

Peace FreedomStands

I will leave the jury out until Man of Faith produces proof of his claims, at the moment
I can only say he has been deluded and has fallen into Hislam or his own personal
version of Islam. As you stated earlier some folks don't like the reality of life made clear in
the Quran, like the necessity to kill 2/251 so they prefer an alternative to what Allah has revealed
3/78.

Should we ask you if your cristal ball is always so unpleasant?

If it is doing guess work at least it should try to say nice things, and not punh whatever it finds just for the sake of punching. What does it know about what anybody would say if something of the kind were to be voiced now or in 4000 years from now. Just punching for the sake of punching.

Peace huruf, Ted had nothing left but frustration so he resorted to name calling which I find
entertaining. rotfl

Why not? Do you have problem with it?
This truth makes me happy because the Qur'an truly support it. )
Praise be to Allah for this lovely earth.

JavaLatte please supply verses where Allah says the earth is flat. nope

May God bless you all

peace

huruf

Regarding q-t-l, not even in dictionnaries or good grammars is kill given as the only meaning or even the foremost. I have also my reservations regarding the the kill meaning. In fact I do not agree with the automatic meaning of kill, no. As to the possibility that it may strictly and BASICALLY mean kill in any occasion, I hve reservations, and I stress the BASICALLY.

Like in the aya 2.251 mentionned by FS. As far as I can see as to the basic meaning of the aya, the important part is not whether Dawood killed Jaaluut, but whether hw overpowered him and prevailed. Whether jaaluut was undone through killing, or through being vanquished, or through any means containing him, the gist of the aya would be the same. I am not sure the aya, IN ITSELF, makes it obligatory that Jaaluut should have been killed by Dawood, any of the other possibilities I mention would do too. What if jaaluut was killed and in spite of his being killed his party or his stance won? Wouldn't that have defeated the meaning of the aya?

I am not speaking by myself, as I say this q-t-l = kill is denied by real masters or Arabic. It is one of the means by which the basic meaning of q-t-l may be attained, but it is not the BASIC.

It is a bit like the d-r-b thing, which basically means doing something decisive to attain a result. For a mental sept up in which beating the hell out of somebody is the surest and quikest way to get anything done, d-r-b may mean beat. To a person with a bit more of brain, it will not, suh an idea will curtail enourmously the possibility of solving something thoroughly.

The Qur'an is not a science book and it does not intend to teah science to anybody, but rather to push the reader to reflect and study by her or himself everything around her or him and everything within him or herself.

That said, if the Qur'an says something, it is necessarily true and knowledgeable. We may not yet have the means to understand it for what it is, or we may never have them, but wront it is not. However it seems that people who like to pick on Qur'an, undefectively use explanations or trnaslations made by men to something they could not grasp to replace what the Qur'an itself says, and mean that when readers of Qur'an correct what other readers of Qur'an have wrongly explained necessarilly those later intend to save the Qur'an from its own mistakes. That is, those qur'an pickers uphold the truth of past readers of Qur'an as if it was sacred. And then we get upset at wahabis and the like. They are the same kind of fools. They paly at being clever against others, but they do not get any more knowledgeable nor any wiser. They are such for such.

Also there is the fact that upon the believers there is a duty to learn and try to understand, but there is not duty whatsoever of getting the right answers to everything.

Only God is God, we creatures are strivers, or we should be.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

So I have become deluded?
What if there rather is a delusion where 99% of people have fallen victim.
I like what Quran says, and then I mean what it really says. This is not really my opinion that I come around with. I asked you to ponder upon the so-called initials of Quran but you seem to have failed to do so.
Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted

So I have become deluded?
What if there rather is a delusion where 99% of people have fallen victim.
I like what Quran says, and then I mean what it really says. This is not really my opinion that I come around with. I asked you to ponder upon the so-called initials of Quran but you seem to have failed to do so.
Salaam

Well your understanding does seem deluded but I can see why. Maybe you're just trying to see things in the Quran to make it fit what you want it to say. I personally want the Quran to say that the earth does not rotate hence it's the sun and stars that revolve around the earth. For me this would be a great sign from God to counter the non-believers. I'd love to see what arguments the non-believers would have if this were to be found to be true.

So what is it about killing in the Quran that you object to? When the prophet was ordered to go into battle at Badr did not God give the command that they need to kill the enemy?

Did God not order the Jews who worshipped the golden calf to kill themselves?

Does God not command life for life when someone has been murdered?

Maybe you want to justify to the non-muslims that the Quran is not violent hence anything to do with killing and fighting you want to re-interpret to something else.

JavaLatte

So you are convinced by religious people that the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it. Oh God in that case.

Correction

Sorry, I did not carefully read your statement above when I wrote my previous post.

So, this is the answer to replace my previous post

Allah made me aware that the earth is not a globe, and about the sun, I think I still have to do more study to know about the position of the sun and how it works. I hope someday I can understand how it works, God willing.

JavaLatte

JavaLatte please supply verses where Allah says the earth is flat.

I still need time to collect verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue, brother. I want to collect not only verses which mention about the earth, but also verses which mention about the heavens, the sun, the moon, and the stars. Those verses seem to have connection.

But, if you really want to know soon, then I suppose you could look at this thread,

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607159.10

because brother Ustahi already made posts which contain some verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue.

nope

And also, when you read/study the Qur'an, I hope you would ponder carefully when you come to verses which describe the earth, the heavens, the sun, and the moon. yes

hawk99

Well your understanding does seem deluded but I can see why. Maybe you're just trying to see things in the Quran to make it fit what you want it to say. I personally want the Quran to say that the earth does not rotate hence it's the sun and stars that revolve around the earth. For me this would be a great sign from God to counter the non-believers. I'd love to see what arguments the non-believers would have if this were to be found to be true.

So what is it about killing in the Quran that you object to? When the prophet was ordered to go into battle at Badr did not God give the command that they need to kill the enemy?

Did God not order the Jews who worshipped the golden calf to kill themselves?

Does God not command life for life when someone has been murdered?

Maybe you want to justify to the non-muslims that the Quran is not violent hence anything to do with killing and fighting you want to re-interpret to something else.

We agree

We cannot put our wishes above those of the creator, that is what creates delusion
and straying. We cannot put words or meanings that are not there, that is true submission,
to hear and obey. This is one of the themes throughout the Quran where believers are
told to trust and obey the message. The painful fact is, killing is natural to protect and to
establish or how else can you deal with Jalut, taghut, al zawlimun, and oppressors?

I still need time to collect verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue, brother. I want to collect not only verses which mention about the earth, but also verses which mention about the heavens, the sun, the moon, and the stars. Those verses seem to have connection.

But, if you really want to know soon, then I suppose you could look at this thread,

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607159.10

because brother Ustahi already made posts which contain some verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue.

And also, when you read/study the Qur'an, I hope you would ponder carefully when you come to verses which describe the earth, the heavens, the sun, and the moon. yes

When you find what you are looking for please share it with the rest of us.

God bless

peace

JavaLatte

When you find what you are looking for please share it with the rest of us.

Insha'Allah.

Man_of_Faith

Ted,

No. I do not want to make Quran fit what I think about things. It is not I who wrote Quran and hence not I who decide what it says.

And what tradition you have concerning Muhammad, sad to say, but most of it is a lie.
And no, Allah did not give the Children of Israel the command to kill themselves. Allah gave them the command to correct themselves. Why would Allah tell a person to commit suicide? It does not make sense except for a person for a person who just wants to force qatal to mean kill.

Life for life yes. It is still valid since the age of Moses, and it is metaphorical for establishing a system of justice and not seek revenge beyond the original crime. And yet Jesus said that it is way better to forgive than to seek revenge even in proportion to the crime.

In all the usage of qatal does not fit from a qualitative sense. Just take a look on the passage that says "do not commit usury and do not kill yourselves". Does this sound like an author who got all horses at home? Especially since the following passage follows up on the talk about usury again. From one context to another, is that a well-written text?

Moses did say that he tried to convince them and they would not let themselves be convinced. And next passage says Aaron is more eloquent in speech than him. You see the literal quality go up tremendously.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Hawk99,

I see the irony in what you say. But you follow something that someone else put their own words for what it liked to say. Try to see it the other way.

The Creator is innocent, obviously.

Salaam

hawk99

Hawk99,

I see the irony in what you say. But you follow something that someone else put their own words for what it liked to say. Try to see it the other way.

The Creator is innocent, obviously.

Salaam

Thank you Man of Faith for your reply. In any scholastic debate one must have convincing
evidence, you to this point have provided no evidence to contradict those who you
accuse of false interpretation! You have yet to give us your Arabic word for "kill".

God bless you

peace

My_Name_is_Ted

I still need time to collect verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue, brother. I want to collect not only verses which mention about the earth, but also verses which mention about the heavens, the sun, the moon, and the stars. Those verses seem to have connection.

But, if you really want to know soon, then I suppose you could look at this thread,

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607159.10

because brother Ustahi already made posts which contain some verses in the Qur'an which related with this issue.

And also, when you read/study the Qur'an, I hope you would ponder carefully when you come to verses which describe the earth, the heavens, the sun, and the moon. yes

Your time may be better spent proving the earth is flat using current technology/observations. The Quran are words which point to the truth. It's for believers to find that truth and satisfy themselves with it.

Man_of_Faith

Hawk99,

Why do I have to give you the Arabic word for kill? Do you like killing?

Anyway, as I progress you shall get your word for kill.

I have given you lots of food for thought concerning how illogical it is that the word means kill. And I have given a definition for what it means. And I have also shown why it is so.

And you still did not respond to what you think as to why chapter 38 and 68 begin with a sole letter and then a conjunction which ought to logically indicate that the letter is supposed to have a meaning.

Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted

Just take a look on the passage that says "do not commit usury and do not kill yourselves".

There is no such passage in the Quran. Maybe that's where you're going wrong?

hawk99

Why do I have to give you the Arabic word for kill? Do you like killing?

Thank you Man of Faith for taking time to reply, the reason I requested your definition
for the word kill in Arabic is because the Arabic language already has a word for kill
and you seemed determined to erase that word from the Arabic language and replace
it with your very own meaning.

Do I like Killing you ask. The answer is no, but I have no problem killing to protect
myself and the defenseless women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, or those
who need my protection.

Anyway, as I progress you shall get your word for kill.

May Allah bless your endeavors

I have given you lots of food for thought concerning how illogical it is that the word means kill. And I have given a definition for what it means. And I have also shown why it is so.

Not convincingly enough, if you mean "exhort" I think exhort is a poor translation for Q-T-L
Waw-Ayn-Za I think is better translation for exhort (Arabic speaking folk may have a better understanding)

And you still did not respond to what you think as to why chapter 38 and 68 begin with a sole letter and then a conjunction which ought to logically indicate that the letter is supposed to have a meaning.

I have not responded to the initials that proceed the chapters of the Quran because
I have no clue what they mean.

God bless you

peace

truthseeker11

Salaam Man of Faith,

Thank you for your understanding.

I have reached further in my research and salateh does have nothing to do with connection or prayer or whatever one wishes to use as interpretation acrobatics. That does not say that the word to pray does not exist in Quran, but salateh is simply not that one.

I agree that "salat" does not mean "prayer" in al-quran. The word for prayer in al-quran/the reading is "du'a". I think salat is a way to establish a connection with the infinite Creator. This is proved by the following sign

1187 They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salat command you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? It seems only you are the compassionate, the wise!"

How else can salat command someone without establishing a connection with the infinite Creator and studying, pondering and reflecting on its signs?

I challenge anyone in the world to fit their understanding of salat in 1187 and see if it makes sense.

Aquyum assalateh means to mind one's ways. It is also actually a valid source from lexicons that the root has a definition that is "to follow". The word as I interpret means in the word before suffixing Follow To Be. The morpheme level analytical method is slightly hard, but it is astonishingly accurate once you learn the exact meaning of each letter (which I have not for all letters yet despite improvements).

I think "amalu salehin" as in 262 refer to minding one's ways by doing good.
Also "mind one's ways" is a neutral word. Ways can be good or bad. If it meant "mind one's ways" it should have been followed by "salehin" like "aqimi al-salaat al-salehin". Otherwise "mind one's ways" can easily mean "mind one's evil ways".
How does minding one's ways "command you" as per 1187?
Minding one's ways is a continuous action and not limited to certain times of the day. How can you mind your ways only at certain times of the day as per 1778 and 11114 where words such as "al-shams", "al-nahaar", "al-layl" are used which clearly refer to certain times of the day?

If those signs don't refer to certain times of the day then we are living in "Alice in wonderland" where anything can mean anything one desires! Then someone can say that in English "murder" means "making happy" using morpheme analyses and anyone can make any word mean anything they want using their secret letter meanings. That will open a door to complete chaos and give a free license for misinterpretation!

If salat means "mind one's ways", then where in al-quran has the infinite Creator told us how to uphold a connection with it?
How can one remember the infinite Creator by minding one's ways (2914)?
What is the source of your secret innate letter meanings other than taking your word for it? How is that different from conjecture? (6116, 1036). Where is your proof? (2875)

The result is that the prophets did not instruct their children to any ritual or meditation but simply to good ways.

I never said salat is a ritual and I never said salat is only meditation. In my post I clearly told you that in my opinion salat included 3 things, not just meditation or channeling the infinite Creator.

Of course the prophets instructed to good ways and the term used for that in al-quran is "amalu salehin", not "salat".

And go ponder upon the so-called initials of Quran if you doubt my method. Why are in chapter 38 and 68 they followed by a conjunction and sole letters?

The initials can mean anything and nowhere has the infinite Creator told us what the initials mean. What is the source of your secret meanings other than conjecture? What is your proof that Arabic letters mean what you think they mean? Was it a direct "wahi"/channeling to you from the infinite Creator about what the letters mean?

I do, however, agree with you that we are going to be in a less physically dense and more spiritual world in the life hereafter in our journey to eventual complete shedding of the physical body and assimilation with the infinite Creator.

May the infinite Creator bless you for all your efforts.

truthseeker11

Peace Man of Faith,

And why do you ignore the fact that your being here is to find he right spiritual attunement? Do you deny that you should avoid indulgence in the worldly matters because you will be living in another less fleshly world when you die if you manage to find the spirit. You bring nothing of the material things with you, not even your body (so no reason for expensive plastic surgery).

And I acknowledge that God is the only being in existence so what is your problem with me. Are you stuck on formalities?

And it is very beautiful both mine and Jesus' message; to be spiritually in affinity and do the will of the Creator. Why do you argue this notion? When you merge with that consciousness this is what happens.

Well said bravo

May the infinite Creator bless you.