Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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According to my understanding of the Quran they do have life.
I suppose because of some verses which I read in the Qur'an, I got the similar impression about that. I think the creations such as the sun, the moon, the mountains, even the rocks... are servants of Allah who completely submit to Him.
It seems that they're the type of creatures which are silence toward us, but I think that Allah can make them communicate to us, if He wills. That's my current understanding.
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One thing you are right about JavaLatte. Allah can indeed make the stones alive and even make them with soul, but as long as they are not then they are just matter made of energy (the power of Allah).
Salaam
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Peace Man of Faith,
No, the initials cannot mean anything. No comprehensible text would have a sole letter and then a conjunction straight after that. The letters DO mean to carry a meaning of their own.
You still haven't told me the source of the innate meaning of the letters. How do you know what the individual letters mean other than your personal conjecture?
refers to follow/conceive what is good, while refers to follow/conceive mere being, i.e. your ways. I said behavior before, but this has been used against me in all sorts of arguments such as ambiguity.
The letter itself means good and that is why it is used in all sorts of root words that refer to good in ways. Want examples? , . Obviously they do not mean the same, but they utilize 'good' to form what they want to convey. Note that 'good' is an interpretation and that the letters are of the simplest possible abstract meaning.
You need to see the distinction between minding who you are and a friendly approach. is meaning what you suggest, but you need to draw the distinction between that and salateh. Salateh refers to your way of life or lifestyle if you want to choose a relatively modern English word. I hope you can see the distinction.
I agree with you that salat cannot mean "behavior".
You completely misunderstood what I said to you. I know that salehin means good. I wasn't comparing "salehin" and "salat". What I was saying is that "amal" can mean "ways" or "lifestyle" in al-quran, so "amalu salehin" would be "good ways" or "good lifestyle". Salat cannot mean "ways" or "lifestyle" as used in al-quran because that meaning won't fit in the salat verses. "Amal" is more likely to have that meaning.
please check an Arabic dictionary for the word and you shall find that one of the alternative definitions is "to follow". That is distinctively different from connection/contact.
I agree that one of the meanings of salat is "to follow very closely". When you follow anything very closely you "connect" with it. Actually if you use al-quran as its own dictionary, salat means "to turn towards". 7531-32 implies that the opposite of salat is to turn away. Thus implying salat is to turn towards.
7531 For he did not believe nor salla
7532 But he denied and turned away.As per al-quran, aqimi al-salat is a way of turning towards the Creator at certain times of the day so that one can remember the Creator and learn how to mind one's ways. It does not mean "mind one's ways" itself.
The people ask Shu'ayb if his ways mean they have to do this or that. Not that he channeled or had connection by that word.
They didn't ask if his salat means they have to do this or that. They asked if his salat commanded if they have to do this or that. So "ways" does not fit in that verse as meaning of salat, because "ways" don't command anything.
Mind one's ways is a general expression if you know. It is timeless. It is just what a majority of people fail to keep in mind.
Exactly! That's why "aqimi al-salat" cannot mean "mind one's ways" because as per 1778 and 11114 salat is limited to certain times of the day.
And look, the word means "conceive to be", how you lead your life. If you want to be evil that is your choice, but it is pretty obvious if someone tells you to mind who you are then you know what is expected. Salawa refers to just that.
How you lead your life is "amalu salehin" and not "aqimi al-salaat".
We can sort this out once and for all. Why don't you translate the ENTIRE salat verses 1778, 11114 and 2458 to see if your salat meaning makes any sense.
1778 Uphold al-salat at the rubbing of the sun, until the darkening of the night; and the Qur'an at dawn-the Qur'an at dawn is witnessed.
11114 And uphold al-salat at two parts of the day, and the near parts of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
2458 mentions salat al-fajr/dawn salat and salat al-3isha/dusk salat.
Minding one's ways is not limited to certain times of the day. In these 3 verses salat is clearly limited to certain times of the day, so "aqimi al-salat" cannot mean "mind one's ways".
If you disagree then please translate these 3 verses completely instead of translating only salat.
Peace and may the infinite Creator bless you.
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Those passages do not speak of any timing. The timing inference is incorrect, everywhere in Quran. I have a few months old translations regarding the passages in my 'Nearness and Guidance' thread somewhere on the forum. I am wiser since then, but overall the translations should be fairly accurate.
And minding your ways is perfectly viable to teach your children. It is the best way and to enable a person to think for themselves. It means mind how you are. There are even parents who say to their children to mind their ways.
And no matter if I am not right about an individual letter it is hardly conjecture because you have at least a few examples in Quran where the letter(s) are followed by a conjunction. It forces the letter to have its own meaning no matter what you say or it is utterly illogical and a weird text.
Be good is part of your ways. And ways includes everything that this ancient text teaches as well. And sometimes a choice is not good but it is the wisest you can do. See in war contexts for example when you sacrifice individual soldiers for some mission where you choose the lesser of two evils. This does not have to be something you can categorize as good.
You need to understand the knowledge and wisdom of God.
While with God everything is good, in this world then due to Satan this is not always possible, but you can always do the lesser of two evils which was wise even if it is hardly good.
Mind your ways is just this, to be able to reflect upon what kind of consequences every little action will cause. It is general on your whole life. You may not always be able to do absolutely good but if you minded the options then at least you tried.
And killing someone in the course of justice is not good, even if sometimes a necessary evil. Can you then forgive an offense, then that is good.
Salaam
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I forgot to mention that the words for punishment imply an evil meaning. Words to punish include a letter that has a negative meaning, even if attributed to Allah.
The life is a balance between good vs. evil, for the cause of balance in your ways for the right cause.
Salaam
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My understanding from the Quran is that vast majority of entities in the universe such as angels, animals, the earth, mountains, the stars, the sky, the sun are alive. When I say alive I mean they have a soul and have a body. The soul I guess is the same/similar in essence in all living things such as the angels, animals, earth, humans, jinn etc. However some souls are given different levels of purpose, abilities, honour, etc. Some of these abilities are at the soul level some at the physical level. For example at the soul level some have different thoughts at the physical level they can either take the shape of the sun, earth, animals, mountains etc.
I believe the following verses in the Quran support the theory that the heavens, sky, earth and mountains are living.
3372 We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;-
4111 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke He said to it and to the earth "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
4429 And neither heaven nor earth shed a tear over them nor were they given a respite (again).
5921 Had We sent down this Qur'an on a mountain, verily, thou wouldst have seen it humble itself and cleave asunder for fear of Allah. Such are the similitudes which We propound to men, that they may reflect.
841-5 When the sky is rent asunder, And hearkens to (the Command of) its Lord, and it must needs (do so);- And when the earth is flattened out, And casts forth what is within it and becomes (clean) empty, And hearkens to (the Command of) its Lord,- and it must needs (do so);- (then will come Home the full reality).
In verse 3372 God says he offered the Trust to the Heavens and Earth but they refused to undertake it and were afraid to. What the Trust was I'm not sure on but I have theory which I'll not go into here. The key things from this verse is that the Heavens and Earth refused and that they were afraid. This to me means that the Heavens and Earth have are living as only living things can refuse and be afraid. From this I get the impression that the Heavens and Earth have a "will" just as we have a will and God has a will. It also reveals that the Heavens and Earth are actually able to and have the ability to refuse something which God commands them to do.
Verse 4111 again reinforces the argument of the sky (not the Heavens) and the earth having the ability to obey/disobey God as they responde to God by saying "We do come (together), in willing obedience".
Verses 4429 and 5921 reveal that Heaven and Earth have feelings of fear and are able to shed "tears".
I think it's easier for use to accept that animals are living entities like ourselves since we can obseve some of them having similar feelings/behaviour as us such as pain, love for their offspring, the forming of communities, etc. Hence why God makes commands us to be caring to animals and to not drink their blood as it contains life.
I disagree with the idea that angels are unable to disobey God. I don't think they're robots. Just like us they have a will, feelings, understanding and are able to obey/disobey God.
For me the above makes sense when trying to establish the meaning of the term "muslim". To me the definition of muslim as "one who submits to the will of God" is adequate and makes it concise. I take the meaning of "submit" to mean that your know what the will of God is and accept and obey it. To know the will of God you need to have been told it. This needs separation from the innate sense of right and wrong that we are all born with. We all have an innate sense of morality, we know it's wrong to lie, steal, murder, be unfaithful, defraud, curse, etc. Hence why all people, both religious and non religious, can be perfectly nice, honest and good people.
So if I take the understanding above then that means no one is born a muslim. They are born a believer as I think everyone has an innate sense of there being God but this innate sense of God usually get's overwritten by what their parents/family/community/society believe in. Even someone born in a muslim family is not a muslim unless they get to a level where they understand and know God and are then carrying out God's will with their actions. Somone born in a muslim family may simply be blindly following their parents/family/community.
The sky and Earth are muslim because they are aware of God and when God gave them a command they obeyed it. If they had disobeyed they would not be classed as muslim as they did not submit to God's will. Even if the sky and Earth had been unwilling to come together as God commanded in verse 4111 they would still be classed as muslim. So even if you carry out God's command unwillingly I think it's OK. Obeying God's is the most criteria.
Abraham was a muslim because he heard and obeyed all of God's command. The Jews are/were muslim as long as they obey God's command in the Torah. The Christians as muslim as long as they obey the teachings of Jesus. Jesus himself was muslim and I believe he was perhaps the only one born a muslim. I don't believe Prophet Mohammed was born a muslim or was a muslim in his early life. He became a muslim once he started to obey the commands of God when it was sent down to him, same applies to Abraham and the prophets such as Salih, Hud, Noah and Moses.
This means as followers of the Quran we have to obey whatever God has commanded us in there. The Quran is a revelation from God which contains guidance and God's will. If we obey those commands either willingly or unwillingy and do it with the intention of obeying God then that makes us muslim. The same applies to all nations who are given scripture from God. Those people who believe in God and work righteosness because of their innate sense of morality are not muslims. This doesn't mean that they are destined for Hell. To me they are believers of which some may actually attain highest achievement in the hereafter.
Hope the above makes sense.
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In verse 3372 God says he offered the Trust to the Heavens and Earth but they refused to undertake it and were afraid to. What the Trust was I'm not sure on but I have theory which I'll not go into here. The key things from this verse is that the Heavens and Earth refused and that they were afraid. This to me means that the Heavens and Earth have are living as only living things can refuse and be afraid. From this I get the impression that the Heavens and Earth have a "will" just as we have a will and God has a will. It also reveals that the Heavens and Earth are actually able to and have the ability to refuse something which God commands them to do.
I like your understanding which I quoted above, it is pleasant to read. Praise be to Allah.
And remember also this verse.
(274)
Then your hearts became hardened after that, being like rocks or even harder. For indeed, there are rocks from which rivers gush forth, and there are some of them that split open and water comes out, and there are some of them that fall down for fear of Allah. And Allah is not unaware of what you do. -
I disagree with the idea that angels are unable to disobey God. I don't think they're robots. Just like us they have a will, feelings, understanding and are able to obey/disobey God.
I'm open for similar understanding as yours in this issue. I think it's possible that the angels are able to disobey Allah, because as far as I know and as far as I can understand, there is no verse in the Qur'an which refutes such understanding.
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Ted,
Your writings are not too bad. I disagree that planets, stars or stones have any soul however but they are just illusive matter shaped out of the "energy"/force which sustains the universe and have no attached soul even if they could have an attached soul should God will.
Most people here misunderstand my stance on faith due to certain controversial "Islam" arguments and that I found an interpretation which is more in line with typical Jesus expressions in the Biblical Gospels and even the Old Testament concerning Moses and "I AM". I do acknowledge God as the only One in existence, and even more so than many others despite their misconception and I do not seek to remove prayers either; I only seek to remove Pagan elements and the visualization delusion concerning God and turning Allah into an image separate from existence. Doing that has already broken commandment two of the COMMANDMENTS to Moses, which still are active because the decree never changes. God does not change nature.
Prayers exist in Quran and they are performed using the Arabic word du'a which does not only mean supplication but it does mean to call upon/pray for. And prayers have no compulsory timing schedule but that is a forced derivative based on ancient interpretation acrobatics on an innocent text. Even the wrong word has been attributed. It is ironically now saying that you should only mind your ways on specific occasions throughout the day. Very selective.
All prophets call upon Rabb according to Quran and not Allah and it has its reasons. Rabb literally means 'Foundation With/In' so you basically call upon your foundation, which can be best referred to as Sustainer, in my opinion based on the literal Arabic meaning.
There is a reason why Allah is not used as a dialog option for conversation by the prophets and other people and that is due to it being wrong from a linguistic sense depending on the literal Hebrew and Arabic meaning of the Allah word. I wrote earlier that it literally means "To be that is".
Allah is used once in direct conversation and then by ignorant sectarian people who call upon Allah by that title clearly viewing God as an image. Otherwise Allah is only used in reference as demonstration for people.
God can perhaps be referred to as an entity but then you have to view it properly and that you refer to everything in existence. Only those who find the spirit in God truly exist. The rest will experience the phenomenon traditionally called Gehenna. Our purpose is to make sure we merge and belong with the Sustainer and for that we need the right affinity.
Salaam -
I like your understanding which I quoted above, it is pleasant to read. Praise be to Allah.
And remember also this verse.
(274)
Then your hearts became hardened after that, being like rocks or even harder. For indeed, there are rocks from which rivers gush forth, and there are some of them that split open and water comes out, and there are some of them that fall down for fear of Allah. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.Thanks for your kind words. It's nice to hear other believers share a similar understanding of your own.
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I'm open for similar understanding as yours in this issue. I think it's possible that the angels are able to disobey Allah, because as far as I know and as far as I can understand, there is no verse in the Qur'an which refutes such understanding.
I believe that the angels fear God and they love him. They fear God because they know that there are consequences. They love him because he is just, righteous, caring, merciful and forgiving and probably many other things we don't know. If the angels were robotic then to me it doesn't make sense for them to have fear. They wouldn't question God as to why he was creating mankind and God would not test their knowledge. For me the angels are a special class of beings who are devoutly obedient to God and are pure in thought and actions and are extremely beautiful. Hence people using the term "his behaviour was like that of an angel", "he looks like an angel", etc.
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Most people here misunderstand my stance on faith due to certain controversial "Islam" arguments and that I found an interpretation which is more in line with typical Jesus expressions in the Biblical Gospels and even the Old Testament concerning Moses and "I AM". I do acknowledge God as the only One in existence, and even more so than many others despite their misconception and I do not seek to remove prayers either; I only seek to remove Pagan elements and the visualization delusion concerning God and turning Allah into an image separate from existence. Doing that has already broken commandment two of the COMMANDMENTS to Moses, which still are active because the decree never changes. God does not change nature.
Prayers exist in Quran and they are performed using the Arabic word du'a which does not only mean supplication but it does mean to call upon/pray for. And prayers have no compulsory timing schedule but that is a forced derivative based on ancient interpretation acrobatics on an innocent text. Even the wrong word has been attributed. It is ironically now saying that you should only mind your ways on specific occasions throughout the day. Very selective.
All prophets call upon Rabb according to Quran and not Allah and it has its reasons. Rabb literally means 'Foundation With/In' so you basically call upon your foundation, which can be best referred to as Sustainer, in my opinion based on the literal Arabic meaning.
There is a reason why Allah is not used as a dialog option for conversation by the prophets and other people and that is due to it being wrong from a linguistic sense depending on the literal Hebrew and Arabic meaning of the Allah word. I wrote earlier that it literally means "To be that is".
Allah is used once in direct conversation and then by ignorant sectarian people who call upon Allah by that title clearly viewing God as an image. Otherwise Allah is only used in reference as demonstration for people.
God can perhaps be referred to as an entity but then you have to view it properly and that you refer to everything in existence. Only those who find the spirit in God truly exist. The rest will experience the phenomenon traditionally called Gehenna. Our purpose is to make sure we merge and belong with the Sustainer and for that we need the right affinity.
SalaamI think I'm beginning to understand your model/view of the world. However I disagree with it. I don't think you've understood some things correctly.
You say "I do acknowledge God as the only One in existence". Not entirely sure what you mean here but we all exist. The heavens, earth, sky, angels, animals, plants, trees, etc. God made all these things and they will continue to exist as long as God wills them to exist. On Day of Judgement some things will be destroyed, some will be reshaped, some things will be created new. Our bodies will be resurrected. All of creation has been created into a reality in which we all exist and God exists in. All this will not be spiritual. The hereafter will not be spiritual. It will be real, physical just as it is today. Except that in the hereafter there will be no death. For those who make it to paradise they will reside their in physical bodies and eat, drink, walk around, wear clothes, enjoy time just as they do in this life. Except that there will no longer be decay, uncleanliness, vain talk, pain, etc. Everything will just perfect for the residents of paradise. We are born into this reality and we will return to this reality on the Day of Judgement.
You said "I only seek to remove Pagan elements and the visualization delusion concerning God and turning Allah into an image separate from existence.". I think what you are saying is that by doing salat the way billions of muslims currently do it by bowing and prostrating 5 times a day or more at certain times makes this a pagan element since there is "visualization" involved. And that the proper way to do it is with just your mind. I don't believe this is from paganism and I do think salat needs to be done in the current form as it is done by billions of muslims today.
We exist in a physical reality. Everything in this physical reality has been subjected to us for our needs and for other purposes, for example to be tested with. As believers in God we use this physical reality to learn and know about God and purify our souls. We learn about God by being able to observe the world around us, by talking and listening to those who are wiser than us, or by sharing experiences with one another and when we are tested by God through hunger, loss of life, wealth, children, families, etc.
We show our obedience to God physically through our actions. It's not enough to simply be obedient through the mind. We have to go through hunger, pain, suffering. We have to physically give our wealth in the name of God and we have to physically help people. We don't do it through the mind. For me, salat by bowing and prostrating has been around since the beginning much before paganism started being practiced. Pagans most likely were doing as the muslims were doing until the pagans decided to create their false gods and worship them in the same/similar manner that the muslims were worshipping God. The Old Testament clearly describes the way in which the priests need to worship God. It's mostly physical. This includes the sacrificing of animals.
Abraham was instructed to build the Kaaba to which pilgrims could visit and perform rituals. As I understand it Hajj was already being performed by the pagans at Mecca but they had added their own false gods. The prophet Mohammed was sent to restore the ritual back to it's original purpose, the worship of God, as well as deliver a message to all of mankind and establish a new People of the Book. The existing People of the Book at the time were the Jews and Christians. Today the Muslims are now also the People of the Book even though the Jews and Christians would disagree.
The Qibla and other rituals are different to that of the Jews and Christians and other religions is because that's what separates us from being a Jew, Christian and Muslim. I don't believe it's God's intention that all of mankind do salat in the same way or to have the same days of celebrations or to have the exact same laws or to dress the same way or to have the same name of God. God made each nation different so that we can get to know each other nicely and celebrate our differences, yet we are all to worship the same God.
If you read the New Testament, Jesus was sent to correct/help the Jews. He wasn't sent to create new laws or remove existing ones. He never complained about the way the pharisees worshipped God in the temples. He told them to stop doing things just to show people how righteous and holy they were when they were meant to only do things for the purpose of pleasing God. So Jesus told his followers to put oil on their head and wash their faces so that no one could tell they were fasting. When praying he told them to go into a room by themselves and close the door and pray.
By doing salat we are not only showing our obedience to God physically but we can also use it to discipline ourselves and remind ourselves of God properly. It also serves as something which separates us from people of other religions and non believers. For non believers it can be a way of subtly inviting them to God. Maybe God uses this to bring non believers to his religion and also remind other believers as to their duty to God.
So doing physical rituals in worshipping God is not paganism. Paganism is of the mind rather than something of the physical world. If you look at certain pagan religions of today and the past you'll find they are worshipping their own desires. Some worshipped a fertility god in order to have children. In india today some worship the god Ganesh in order to have obstacles to removed from their path and maybe be successful in life. Paganism is about worshipping your desires or the desire of others.
People of the Book worship and do the will/desire of God if they follow it.
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I believe that the angels fear God and they love him. They fear God because they know that there are consequences. They love him because he is just, righteous, caring, merciful and forgiving and probably many other things we don't know. If the angels were robotic then to me it doesn't make sense for them to have fear. They wouldn't question God as to why he was creating mankind and God would not test their knowledge. For me the angels are a special class of beings who are devoutly obedient to God and are pure in thought and actions and are extremely beautiful. Hence people using the term "his behaviour was like that of an angel", "he looks like an angel", etc.
Lovely explanation, brother Ted,
but maybe we could review this part
and are extremely beautiful.
This... I don't know. I'm not sure if they're all extremely beautiful.
I don't know how they look like, maybe their looks are adjusted to their tasks.
Because of what mentioned in the verse 666, I'm not sure if they (the angels who guard hell) look beautiful.
(666)
O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are angels, harsh and severe, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them but do what they are commanded.(7431)
And We have not made the guardians of the Fire except angels, . . .Peace.
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This... I don't know. I'm not sure if they're all extremely beautiful.
I don't know how they look like, maybe their looks are adjusted to their tasks.
Because of what mentioned in the verse 666, I'm not sure if they (the angels who guard hell) look beautiful.
(666)
O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are angels, harsh and severe, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them but do what they are commanded.(7431)
And We have not made the guardians of the Fire except angels, . . .Peace.
I agree.
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The heavens, earth, sky, angels, animals, plants, trees, etc. God made all these things and they will continue to exist as long as God wills them to exist. On Day of Judgement some things will be destroyed, some will be reshaped, some things will be created new. Our bodies will be resurrected. All of creation has been created into a reality in which we all exist and God exists in. All this will not be spiritual. The hereafter will not be spiritual. It will be real, physical just as it is today. Except that in the hereafter there will be no death. For those who make it to paradise they will reside their in physical bodies and eat, drink, walk around, wear clothes, enjoy time just as they do in this life. Except that there will no longer be decay, uncleanliness, vain talk, pain, etc. Everything will just perfect for the residents of paradise. We are born into this reality and we will return to this reality on the Day of Judgement.
Wow! I like what you wrote above, I really LIKE it. It's refreshing to finally read such understanding in this forum. Clear and simple, easy to understand.
I disagree with people who describe paradise and hell far-fetched/different from the explanation in the Qur'an, but at the same time also use some parts of the Qur'an to back up their understanding.
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Salam Ted.
Looks like we are set for a long discussion here. Let me take a deep breath and begin.
Form your last response to me, I gather the following summary points which I?d like to discuss one after another
- Majority of entities in the universe such as angels, animals, the earth, mountains, the stars, the sky, the sun are alive ? that is they have a soul and a body.
- You disagree with the idea that angels are unable to disobey God. Just like us they have a will, feelings, understanding and are able to obey/disobey God.
- To you the definition of muslim as "one who submits to the will of God" is adequate and makes it concise. I take the meaning of "submit" to mean that your know what the will of God is and accept and obey it.
I believe the third point is the key point which we need to discuss in great details. For the first 2 points I?ll just share my views with you.
Majority of entities in the universe such as angels, animals, the earth, mountains, the stars, the sky, the sun are alive ? that is they have a soul and a body.
My agreement and disagreement with you solely depends on how you define ?life / alive? and ?soul?.
Qur?an repeatedly says Allah brings dead from the alive and alive from the dead (example, verse 327). The terms alive and dead totally loose there meaning if we consider inanimate objects as ?alive?. Per my definition, to be alive one needs to have a soul (nafs) - an individual ?consciousness? quarantined from the overreaching consciousness driving the entire universe (i.e. The ?Spirit/Ruh? of Allah), and inanimate objects per this definition are not alive.
Also you can see in my definition inanimate objects (stars, sun, mountains etc.) do not have ?soul (nafs)? of their own. But then again, everything in the universe do leverage upon the overreaching consciousness of the singularity driving the entire universe (i.e. The ?Spirit/Ruh? of Allah) ? and from that perspective everything has access to a soul.
So, when Allah says Allah told the mountain such and such and they replied such and such it does not necessarily mean that the mountain has a separate individual ?consciousness? quarantined from Ruh of Allah. Rather it simply means the Ruh of Allah commanded the mountain to do something and it obliged as it has no separate free will OR, the Ruh of Allah considered some task for the mountain but Ruh of Allah decided that it would be too much to ask from the mountain.
A good illustration of this concept can be our heart. Although our heart is a critical part of our body, it is not under direct control of our individual ?consciousness? quarantined from the Ruh of Allah. Rather it is under direct control of Ruh of Allah. It bits in its own rhythm just like Allah wants it to beat. The moment Allah will ?say? ?O heart of Armanaziz, stop beating? ? it will stop and there is absolutely nothing the individual ?consciousness? of Armanaziz can do to force it to continue beating. And the heart of Armanaziz will not shed a drop of tear over ?individual? Armanaziz.
The above doesn?t mean my heart can talk and shed tear out of its own individual consciousness. No - at least not in the life of this world.
Angels have a will, feelings, understanding and are able to obey/disobey God.
I understand angels to be spiritual beings, rather than physical beings. But I tend to agree that it is likely they have free will and soul (i.e. individual ?consciousness? quarantined from the Ruh of Allah). Accurate knowledge of their nature is a matter of Al-ghaib (unobservable realm) and I am happy to admit I have faith in them but I do not ?understand? them.
The meaning of "submit" to mean that your know what the will of God is and accept and obey it.
Those people who believe in God and work righteousness because of their innate sense of morality are not muslims. This doesn't mean that they are destined for Hell. To me they are believers of which some may actually attain highest achievement in the hereafter.
I am bringing your last comment affront because this contradicts the understanding how the term ?muslim? and ?islam? has been used in Qur?an. All your arguments seem to be based on the idea that ?islam? or being ?muslim? is a higher quality that we should strive to achieve ? it is not a mandatory requirement. That simply doesn?t seem to match what Qur?an says. Let?s explore the below verses
383 So, do they seek (ways) besides Allah?s resolution (ِ, while whatever is in the heavens and the earth have submitted to Him willingly or under compulsion, and they will be returned to Him?
384 Say, ?We put faith in Allah and what is sent down on us and what was sent down on Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Master. We do not differentiate among any of them and we are submissive (َ to Him.
385 And whoever seeks a resolution (ا other than peace/submission (ِ then never will (it) be accepted from him and in the hereafter he will be among the losers.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Two important points to note for you in the above. First, accepting ?islam/submission? and being ?muslim? has been portrayed as a mandatory requirement ? not an optional ?higher rank? that believers should strive to achieve as you put it.
Second point, even though the message is towards the readers / followers of Qur?an, verse 384 even does not mention ?Qur?an? or ?Muhammad? while explaining how to be a muslim. Rather the emphasis is one ? we are muslim by accepting the ?same? teaching which is brought to humanity by all the Prophets. And the ?same? teaching is nothing but obeying our God-gifted senses of right and wrong.
A real Prophet and/or Gabriel can never seek blind adherence to a message which is contrary to our God-gifted senses of right and wrong. If someone claims to preach God?s message and tell us to blindly follow it ? immediately that has to be a red-flag. Either we are misunderstanding or he is an imposter.
379 It is not to be for any (living) being that Allah would give him the book, the wisdom and the prophet-hood, (but) later he would say to mankind, ?Be slaves to me from beside Allah.? But rather (he would say), ?Be rabbis (i.e. devotees of the Master) because you would be teaching the book, and because you would be studying it.?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
If we understand that being a muslim is all about taking the resolution / life-choice (Arabic deen) that I would be submissive to my senses of right and wrong and live in harmony with the universe ? then it becomes clear that messengers and scriptures do not play an essential role in this resolution ? they only play a supporting role.
The Jews are/were muslim as long as they obey God's command in the Torah. The Christians as muslim as long as they obey the teachings of Jesus. Jesus himself was muslim and I believe he was perhaps the only one born a muslim. I don't believe Prophet Mohammed was born a muslim or was a muslim in his early life. He became a muslim once he started to obey the commands of God when it was sent down to him, same applies to Abraham and the prophets such as Salih, Hud, Noah and Moses.
And what is the verdict for the Hindus, Budhdhist, Followers of Confucius and traditional Chinese / Japanese religion, Taoism, Deists, Agnostics and so on? The mercy and compassion of Allah is only for the followers of Abrahamic faith?
A human being born in a rural setting (say in a remote village of China) fully grateful to have the gift of life, taking full responsibility for being fair and equitable to everyone, taking full accountability of his actions and striving with his life and wealth to do good to others ? will be considered not submitting to God?s will (and thereby non-muslim) simply because he did not have access to the ?knowledge of scriptures?? His resolution / life-choice (Arabic deen) of upholding his conscience and morality will never be acceptable to Allah (385)?
Think.
Now I?d focus on some of your other comments
To know the will of God you need to have been told it. This needs separation from the innate sense of right and wrong that we are all born with. We all have an innate sense of morality, we know it's wrong to lie, steal, murder, be unfaithful, defraud, curse, etc. Hence why all people, both religious and non religious, can be perfectly nice, honest and good people.
The refutation of your assumption that to know will of God we need to have been told it - is already built into in your argument above. Your argument is our inherent sense alone does not suffice to keep us from doing bad. So the additional information must be a necessity. I would say, even those who are ?told? to do good frequently misunderstand the message and continue doing bad anyway. So the message the messengers bring to us are nothing but reminder.
So if I take the understanding above then that means no one is born a muslim. They are born a believer as I think everyone has an innate sense of there being God but this innate sense of God usually get's overwritten by what their parents/family/community/society believe in. Even someone born in a muslim family is not a muslim unless they get to a level where they understand and know God and are then carrying out God's will with their actions. Somone born in a muslim family may simply be blindly following their parents/family/community.
This is very problematic understanding. This gives rise to conclusions which are morally not acceptable. For example, if children are not born muslim, do you say a child born in a ?non-muslim? family, who dies before his senses are developed ? say at the age of 5 ? is a ?non-Muslim? and his ?deen? will never be acceptable to Allah (385)?
So even if you carry out God's command unwillingly I think it's OK. Obeying God's is the most criteria.
Doesn?t this statement directly contradict what you said before ? that Even someone born in a muslim family is not a muslim unless they get to a level where they understand and know God and are then carrying out God's will with their actions. If really obeying God?s commands is the key criteria ? then why do you emphasize ?Understanding and knowing God?s command? to be an indispensable criteria. Does everybody in the world need to study some scripture or other and if they don?t they are destined to hell? Do everybody in the world have fair and equitable access to the knowledge of religious scriptures? If they don?t then has God done injustice to them by simply letting them to be born in families with zero or minimum access to religious teaching?
Abraham was a muslim because he heard and obeyed all of God's command.
No I disagree. This is not what I read about Abraham in Qur?an. Abraham was a muslim when he willingly submitted to the Master of the Universe by upholding his God gifted senses of right and wrong. Physically ?hearing? God?s message, even if we assume that happened, it was an after effect.
This means as followers of the Quran we have to obey whatever God has commanded us in there.
This is a dangerous line of thought which may lead to sin of blind faith ? leading up to shirk (associating a book as a partner to Allah). The Boko Haram / ISIS gong has been led astray because of thinking like this. Be very careful, Qur?an can both guide and deviate ? depends on how you approach it
226 Indeed Allah is not embarrassed to set forth an example of even a mosquito or something above it ? then as for those who have put faith, so they know that is the truth from their Master, and as for those who repress (faith) so they say ?What does Allah intend by this example?? He deviates many with it and guides many with it, but He does not deviate with it anyone except the willfully disobedient .
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
The correct way of articulation should be as followers of the Quran we have to obey our God-gifted conscience and intellect and we have to be obedient to our Master who has given the sense of right and wrong. For us Qur?an is a wise reminder and an illuminating guide.
Only if we put obedience to God first, the consciousness of our utter dependence on the overreaching consciousness driving the entire universe (i.e. The ?Spirit/Ruh? of Allah) first, ONLY THEN we can hope to derive the guidance from Qur?an. Otherwise ?zihad? will continue to sound like war against Non-Muslims and Salaat will continue to sound like ?Our daily dose of song and dance mandatorily required by our deity ? if someone doesn?t do it, he is an apostate and it is our duty to kill him?.
Please try to go through the examples of messengers in Qur'an. Again and again they are telling their people I am only an advisor, I am only reminding you, I am only warning you etc. They never say, blindly obey me because I am telling you what God wants you to do and if you have not heard me you do not know what God wants you to do.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Ok Ted. You are free to think whatever you like. But my understanding is from what Quran teaches. There are no rituals. Those are from Paganism.
And the next world is not physical. It will not be the same kind of experience. Your body you have here is not what you will have next.
Salaam
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Redundant post. Sorry.
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And the next world is not physical. It will not be the same kind of experience. Your body you have here is not what you will have next.
I agree that our bodies here on earth won't be the exact same ones in the hereafter. I think they will be better most likely still made from the earth. However it will still be physical. I'd appreciate if you could let me know why and support your view using the Quran.