Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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I believe that the angels fear God and they love him. They fear God because they know that there are consequences. They love him because he is just, righteous, caring, merciful and forgiving and probably many other things we don't know. If the angels were robotic then to me it doesn't make sense for them to have fear. They wouldn't question God as to why he was creating mankind and God would not test their knowledge. For me the angels are a special class of beings who are devoutly obedient to God and are pure in thought and actions and are extremely beautiful. Hence people using the term "his behaviour was like that of an angel", "he looks like an angel", etc.
Lovely explanation, brother Ted,
but maybe we could review this part
and are extremely beautiful.
This... I don't know. I'm not sure if they're all extremely beautiful.
I don't know how they look like, maybe their looks are adjusted to their tasks.
Because of what mentioned in the verse 666, I'm not sure if they (the angels who guard hell) look beautiful.
(666)
O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are angels, harsh and severe, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them but do what they are commanded.(7431)
And We have not made the guardians of the Fire except angels, . . .Peace.
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This... I don't know. I'm not sure if they're all extremely beautiful.
I don't know how they look like, maybe their looks are adjusted to their tasks.
Because of what mentioned in the verse 666, I'm not sure if they (the angels who guard hell) look beautiful.
(666)
O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are angels, harsh and severe, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them but do what they are commanded.(7431)
And We have not made the guardians of the Fire except angels, . . .Peace.
I agree.
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The heavens, earth, sky, angels, animals, plants, trees, etc. God made all these things and they will continue to exist as long as God wills them to exist. On Day of Judgement some things will be destroyed, some will be reshaped, some things will be created new. Our bodies will be resurrected. All of creation has been created into a reality in which we all exist and God exists in. All this will not be spiritual. The hereafter will not be spiritual. It will be real, physical just as it is today. Except that in the hereafter there will be no death. For those who make it to paradise they will reside their in physical bodies and eat, drink, walk around, wear clothes, enjoy time just as they do in this life. Except that there will no longer be decay, uncleanliness, vain talk, pain, etc. Everything will just perfect for the residents of paradise. We are born into this reality and we will return to this reality on the Day of Judgement.
Wow! I like what you wrote above, I really LIKE it. It's refreshing to finally read such understanding in this forum. Clear and simple, easy to understand.
I disagree with people who describe paradise and hell far-fetched/different from the explanation in the Qur'an, but at the same time also use some parts of the Qur'an to back up their understanding.
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Salam Ted.
Looks like we are set for a long discussion here. Let me take a deep breath and begin.
Form your last response to me, I gather the following summary points which I?d like to discuss one after another
- Majority of entities in the universe such as angels, animals, the earth, mountains, the stars, the sky, the sun are alive ? that is they have a soul and a body.
- You disagree with the idea that angels are unable to disobey God. Just like us they have a will, feelings, understanding and are able to obey/disobey God.
- To you the definition of muslim as "one who submits to the will of God" is adequate and makes it concise. I take the meaning of "submit" to mean that your know what the will of God is and accept and obey it.
I believe the third point is the key point which we need to discuss in great details. For the first 2 points I?ll just share my views with you.
Majority of entities in the universe such as angels, animals, the earth, mountains, the stars, the sky, the sun are alive ? that is they have a soul and a body.
My agreement and disagreement with you solely depends on how you define ?life / alive? and ?soul?.
Qur?an repeatedly says Allah brings dead from the alive and alive from the dead (example, verse 327). The terms alive and dead totally loose there meaning if we consider inanimate objects as ?alive?. Per my definition, to be alive one needs to have a soul (nafs) - an individual ?consciousness? quarantined from the overreaching consciousness driving the entire universe (i.e. The ?Spirit/Ruh? of Allah), and inanimate objects per this definition are not alive.
Also you can see in my definition inanimate objects (stars, sun, mountains etc.) do not have ?soul (nafs)? of their own. But then again, everything in the universe do leverage upon the overreaching consciousness of the singularity driving the entire universe (i.e. The ?Spirit/Ruh? of Allah) ? and from that perspective everything has access to a soul.
So, when Allah says Allah told the mountain such and such and they replied such and such it does not necessarily mean that the mountain has a separate individual ?consciousness? quarantined from Ruh of Allah. Rather it simply means the Ruh of Allah commanded the mountain to do something and it obliged as it has no separate free will OR, the Ruh of Allah considered some task for the mountain but Ruh of Allah decided that it would be too much to ask from the mountain.
A good illustration of this concept can be our heart. Although our heart is a critical part of our body, it is not under direct control of our individual ?consciousness? quarantined from the Ruh of Allah. Rather it is under direct control of Ruh of Allah. It bits in its own rhythm just like Allah wants it to beat. The moment Allah will ?say? ?O heart of Armanaziz, stop beating? ? it will stop and there is absolutely nothing the individual ?consciousness? of Armanaziz can do to force it to continue beating. And the heart of Armanaziz will not shed a drop of tear over ?individual? Armanaziz.
The above doesn?t mean my heart can talk and shed tear out of its own individual consciousness. No - at least not in the life of this world.
Angels have a will, feelings, understanding and are able to obey/disobey God.
I understand angels to be spiritual beings, rather than physical beings. But I tend to agree that it is likely they have free will and soul (i.e. individual ?consciousness? quarantined from the Ruh of Allah). Accurate knowledge of their nature is a matter of Al-ghaib (unobservable realm) and I am happy to admit I have faith in them but I do not ?understand? them.
The meaning of "submit" to mean that your know what the will of God is and accept and obey it.
Those people who believe in God and work righteousness because of their innate sense of morality are not muslims. This doesn't mean that they are destined for Hell. To me they are believers of which some may actually attain highest achievement in the hereafter.
I am bringing your last comment affront because this contradicts the understanding how the term ?muslim? and ?islam? has been used in Qur?an. All your arguments seem to be based on the idea that ?islam? or being ?muslim? is a higher quality that we should strive to achieve ? it is not a mandatory requirement. That simply doesn?t seem to match what Qur?an says. Let?s explore the below verses
383 So, do they seek (ways) besides Allah?s resolution (ِ, while whatever is in the heavens and the earth have submitted to Him willingly or under compulsion, and they will be returned to Him?
384 Say, ?We put faith in Allah and what is sent down on us and what was sent down on Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Master. We do not differentiate among any of them and we are submissive (َ to Him.
385 And whoever seeks a resolution (ا other than peace/submission (ِ then never will (it) be accepted from him and in the hereafter he will be among the losers.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Two important points to note for you in the above. First, accepting ?islam/submission? and being ?muslim? has been portrayed as a mandatory requirement ? not an optional ?higher rank? that believers should strive to achieve as you put it.
Second point, even though the message is towards the readers / followers of Qur?an, verse 384 even does not mention ?Qur?an? or ?Muhammad? while explaining how to be a muslim. Rather the emphasis is one ? we are muslim by accepting the ?same? teaching which is brought to humanity by all the Prophets. And the ?same? teaching is nothing but obeying our God-gifted senses of right and wrong.
A real Prophet and/or Gabriel can never seek blind adherence to a message which is contrary to our God-gifted senses of right and wrong. If someone claims to preach God?s message and tell us to blindly follow it ? immediately that has to be a red-flag. Either we are misunderstanding or he is an imposter.
379 It is not to be for any (living) being that Allah would give him the book, the wisdom and the prophet-hood, (but) later he would say to mankind, ?Be slaves to me from beside Allah.? But rather (he would say), ?Be rabbis (i.e. devotees of the Master) because you would be teaching the book, and because you would be studying it.?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
If we understand that being a muslim is all about taking the resolution / life-choice (Arabic deen) that I would be submissive to my senses of right and wrong and live in harmony with the universe ? then it becomes clear that messengers and scriptures do not play an essential role in this resolution ? they only play a supporting role.
The Jews are/were muslim as long as they obey God's command in the Torah. The Christians as muslim as long as they obey the teachings of Jesus. Jesus himself was muslim and I believe he was perhaps the only one born a muslim. I don't believe Prophet Mohammed was born a muslim or was a muslim in his early life. He became a muslim once he started to obey the commands of God when it was sent down to him, same applies to Abraham and the prophets such as Salih, Hud, Noah and Moses.
And what is the verdict for the Hindus, Budhdhist, Followers of Confucius and traditional Chinese / Japanese religion, Taoism, Deists, Agnostics and so on? The mercy and compassion of Allah is only for the followers of Abrahamic faith?
A human being born in a rural setting (say in a remote village of China) fully grateful to have the gift of life, taking full responsibility for being fair and equitable to everyone, taking full accountability of his actions and striving with his life and wealth to do good to others ? will be considered not submitting to God?s will (and thereby non-muslim) simply because he did not have access to the ?knowledge of scriptures?? His resolution / life-choice (Arabic deen) of upholding his conscience and morality will never be acceptable to Allah (385)?
Think.
Now I?d focus on some of your other comments
To know the will of God you need to have been told it. This needs separation from the innate sense of right and wrong that we are all born with. We all have an innate sense of morality, we know it's wrong to lie, steal, murder, be unfaithful, defraud, curse, etc. Hence why all people, both religious and non religious, can be perfectly nice, honest and good people.
The refutation of your assumption that to know will of God we need to have been told it - is already built into in your argument above. Your argument is our inherent sense alone does not suffice to keep us from doing bad. So the additional information must be a necessity. I would say, even those who are ?told? to do good frequently misunderstand the message and continue doing bad anyway. So the message the messengers bring to us are nothing but reminder.
So if I take the understanding above then that means no one is born a muslim. They are born a believer as I think everyone has an innate sense of there being God but this innate sense of God usually get's overwritten by what their parents/family/community/society believe in. Even someone born in a muslim family is not a muslim unless they get to a level where they understand and know God and are then carrying out God's will with their actions. Somone born in a muslim family may simply be blindly following their parents/family/community.
This is very problematic understanding. This gives rise to conclusions which are morally not acceptable. For example, if children are not born muslim, do you say a child born in a ?non-muslim? family, who dies before his senses are developed ? say at the age of 5 ? is a ?non-Muslim? and his ?deen? will never be acceptable to Allah (385)?
So even if you carry out God's command unwillingly I think it's OK. Obeying God's is the most criteria.
Doesn?t this statement directly contradict what you said before ? that Even someone born in a muslim family is not a muslim unless they get to a level where they understand and know God and are then carrying out God's will with their actions. If really obeying God?s commands is the key criteria ? then why do you emphasize ?Understanding and knowing God?s command? to be an indispensable criteria. Does everybody in the world need to study some scripture or other and if they don?t they are destined to hell? Do everybody in the world have fair and equitable access to the knowledge of religious scriptures? If they don?t then has God done injustice to them by simply letting them to be born in families with zero or minimum access to religious teaching?
Abraham was a muslim because he heard and obeyed all of God's command.
No I disagree. This is not what I read about Abraham in Qur?an. Abraham was a muslim when he willingly submitted to the Master of the Universe by upholding his God gifted senses of right and wrong. Physically ?hearing? God?s message, even if we assume that happened, it was an after effect.
This means as followers of the Quran we have to obey whatever God has commanded us in there.
This is a dangerous line of thought which may lead to sin of blind faith ? leading up to shirk (associating a book as a partner to Allah). The Boko Haram / ISIS gong has been led astray because of thinking like this. Be very careful, Qur?an can both guide and deviate ? depends on how you approach it
226 Indeed Allah is not embarrassed to set forth an example of even a mosquito or something above it ? then as for those who have put faith, so they know that is the truth from their Master, and as for those who repress (faith) so they say ?What does Allah intend by this example?? He deviates many with it and guides many with it, but He does not deviate with it anyone except the willfully disobedient .
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
The correct way of articulation should be as followers of the Quran we have to obey our God-gifted conscience and intellect and we have to be obedient to our Master who has given the sense of right and wrong. For us Qur?an is a wise reminder and an illuminating guide.
Only if we put obedience to God first, the consciousness of our utter dependence on the overreaching consciousness driving the entire universe (i.e. The ?Spirit/Ruh? of Allah) first, ONLY THEN we can hope to derive the guidance from Qur?an. Otherwise ?zihad? will continue to sound like war against Non-Muslims and Salaat will continue to sound like ?Our daily dose of song and dance mandatorily required by our deity ? if someone doesn?t do it, he is an apostate and it is our duty to kill him?.
Please try to go through the examples of messengers in Qur'an. Again and again they are telling their people I am only an advisor, I am only reminding you, I am only warning you etc. They never say, blindly obey me because I am telling you what God wants you to do and if you have not heard me you do not know what God wants you to do.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Ok Ted. You are free to think whatever you like. But my understanding is from what Quran teaches. There are no rituals. Those are from Paganism.
And the next world is not physical. It will not be the same kind of experience. Your body you have here is not what you will have next.
Salaam
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Redundant post. Sorry.
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And the next world is not physical. It will not be the same kind of experience. Your body you have here is not what you will have next.
I agree that our bodies here on earth won't be the exact same ones in the hereafter. I think they will be better most likely still made from the earth. However it will still be physical. I'd appreciate if you could let me know why and support your view using the Quran.
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Ok Ted. You are free to think whatever you like. But my understanding is from what Quran teaches. There are no rituals. Those are from Paganism.
Please let me know why think the Quran does prescribe rituals on Muslims and other nations. Do you not consider Hajj, fasting, Eid, passover, Friday congregations, sabbath, etc. rituals? Maybe I have misunderstood your meaning of ritual.
Would also appreciate your understanding of paganism and how it arose/arises.
Thanks
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No. None of that stuff is in Quran.
Salaam -
No. None of that stuff is in Quran.
SalaamAre you saying Hajj is not in the Quran?
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Salaam Ted,
I was a bit short last post due to time limitation and I gave no explanation. It is more fair to say that the inferred rituals you referred to do not exist in Quran, for I suppose you referred to Hajj pilgrimage, Ramadhan marathon fast and salateh prostration ritual.
Hajj as a pilgrimage to a holy site does not exist in Quran. It is important to first of all clear out that masjed haram does not mean a remote building in the desert of Arabia and the next prerequisite is also ultimate fail since masjed does not even refer to a building but a specific referral (attribute) to a person who is sujud which in return does not imply prostration but obedience.
To my understanding "Hajj" as a true interpretation refers to the kind of community service which Jesus was involved in and commanded his disciples about, to go around serving the assembly and do good which I take is general charitable deeds.
Since Quran seems to mainly aim its attention primarily at select people who devote their whole time to the faith, then this is obviously their Hajj. Quran basically teaches how a person is supposed to preach the message. This is evident in all 'say' commands. In certain passages of chapter 2 it even reads; "if you speak to X then say Y".
Given some light on the scripture it reveals both a vastly different message as the traditional interpretation and also shows that it is aimed towards select people, i.e. those wise enough to not be beguiled by the Pagan delusion distorting the whole text. It is meant as a help to go around preaching about God, basically, to find arguments to be able to proclaim the faith without Pagan delusions. For example, the huge image making of God contrary to the second commandment of the list revealed to Moses.
Fasting as a practice is no ritual and it is either as a repentance, show of grief or a personal preference to help oneself learn to reduce their worldliness. I personally would rather reduce consumption and become aware of my meal sizes and just give the body what it needs. Or do like the Jews during the Passover by abstaining from leavened bread which can be equal today with not consuming any sweetened food for a period.
Paganism you asked for a definition about and I will attempt to make one.
Paganism is fundamentally
Making god(s) into (an) image(s). Does not matter if the God is called Allah.
Worship of the same image in an attempt to please it in very primitive ways.
Seemingly meaningless rituals considered the lack of need for any rituals due to that the real Allah does not really need it. And you cannot bribe Allah. Plus Allah has no ego.
Misconception that leads to separation of Allah through image-making from the real concept of merging and become assimilated with the phenomenon of Allah and to walk in its spirit.
It also often leads to animosity because people consider "their god" (image) to be better than another Pagan sect's god and what that image revealed in terms of religion and rituals. Quran gives example of that in a quarrel between what it calls Yahood and Nasara, despite that both pursue the same knowledge, yet the already failed because they make images (traditionally idolatry). It is a bit ironical that you can commit idolatry with Allah, but you can. Their prophets are often the real images however and this becomes stronger for those who indulge in a lot of falsehood (like Muslims tragically have done in ignorance). Muhammad is as much idol.as Jesus and none is better than the other. It does not really matter about that Muslims refrain from the son word because it is still on the same level of fixation.
And both the prophet of the Quran and Jesus would have taught using the principle "Be in the Creator and the Creator is in you". They say this because they let their identity and ego get absorbed into the consciousness of Allah instead of existing separately. Those who exist separately will have trouble later, even if their good deeds may save them if they led a sufficiently good life.
And to get absorbed in Allah is no magic procedure of pleasing a god through meaningless and empty glorification but it is about getting spiritual affinity and do the assimilated works. Affinity-building generates affiliation and guidance inspiration and soon knowledge and wisdom of the realm.
But it takes devout dedication and to work on your ways and to convince yourself and to be more aware of animalistic instincts of your beast body and to mend them. Control the beast in you by finding the spirit, that spirit of the Creator in which image you were made to tread. And no separate image because think "I am that am I".
Now you got a little lesson. Mind it or not is up to you, but I hope someone else will appreciate it if you do not.
And remember to treat Allah devoutly. And that means to show your works in union.
Otherwise you do not belong with the Creator and is not the Creation of the Creator. Your empty shell is a mere illusion projected by the "force field" of Allah and your soul shall be cast out or rather not be let into the realm.Salaam
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Fasting as a practice is no ritual and it is either as a repentance, show of grief or a personal preference to help oneself learn to reduce their worldliness. I personally would rather reduce consumption and become aware of my meal sizes and just give the body what it needs. Or do like the Jews during the Passover by abstaining from leavened bread which can be equal today with not consuming any sweetened food for a period.
Can you please cite from the Quran why you think fasting is "either as a repentance, show of grief or a personal preference to help oneself learn to reduce their worldliness".
Why do you think Jews and Jesus himself celebrated passover? Please cite your references to the Bible or other text.
Thanks
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Salam Ted.
Looks like we are set for a long discussion here. Let me take a deep breath and begin.
Form your last response to me, I gather the following summary points which I?d like to discuss one after another
- Majority of entities in the universe such as angels, animals, the earth, mountains, the stars, the sky, the sun are alive ? that is they have a soul and a body.
- You disagree with the idea that angels are unable to disobey God. Just like us they have a will, feelings, understanding and are able to obey/disobey God.
- To you the definition of muslim as "one who submits to the will of God" is adequate and makes it concise. I take the meaning of "submit" to mean that your know what the will of God is and accept and obey it.
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Armanaziz,
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed well written response. I shall be collecting my thoughts and writing a response shortly.
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Ted,
Due to appreciation that God took them away from the tyranny of Pharaoh. It was just an example, maybe not the best example for a person who sees Allah like an (a separate) object/image with rituals.
If you take a look at fasting in Quran it is a self-inflicted punishment to repent in case you did something bad. That it is to show grief is a logical explanation. And so is to fast to learn to reduce their worldliness. It is easy to get absorbed in the flesh and you may want to remind yourself about your priorities. Also indulging in much food can make some people blind to what they eat.
Salaam
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Ted,
Due to appreciation that God took them away from the tyranny of Pharaoh. It was just an example, maybe not the best example for a person who sees Allah like an (a separate) object/image with rituals.
If you take a look at fasting in Quran it is a self-inflicted punishment to repent in case you did something bad. That it is to show grief is a logical explanation. And so is to fast to learn to reduce their worldliness. It is easy to get absorbed in the flesh and you may want to remind yourself about your priorities. Also indulging in much food can make some people blind to what they eat.
Salaam
Sorry but you did not answer any of my questions by quoting from the Quran.
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Paganism is fundamentally
Making god(s) into (an) image(s). Does not matter if the God is called Allah.
Worship of the same image in an attempt to please it in very primitive ways.
Seemingly meaningless rituals considered the lack of need for any rituals due to that the real Allah does not really need it. And you cannot bribe Allah. Plus Allah has no ego.
Misconception that leads to separation of Allah through image-making from the real concept of merging and become assimilated with the phenomenon of Allah and to walk in its spirit.
It also often leads to animosity because people consider "their god" (image) to be better than another Pagan sect's god and what that image revealed in terms of religion and rituals. Quran gives example of that in a quarrel between what it calls Yahood and Nasara, despite that both pursue the same knowledge, yet the already failed because they make images (traditionally idolatry). It is a bit ironical that you can commit idolatry with Allah, but you can. Their prophets are often the real images however and this becomes stronger for those who indulge in a lot of falsehood (like Muslims tragically have done in ignorance). Muhammad is as much idol.as Jesus and none is better than the other. It does not really matter about that Muslims refrain from the son word because it is still on the same level of fixation.
Sorry, I don't think you really understand paganism and it's history. It might help to read the Bible and ask those who are pagans today why they are pagans.
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The website should upload only meaningful subjects or Questions. Whoever accepts "La Ilaha Illa Allahu Muhammadur Rasulullah" is a muslim. No body has right except Allah to question about somebodys Islam. Please think of the present problems faced by Islamic world and how to improve it instead of discussing such useless subjects.
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The website should upload only meaningful subjects or Questions. Whoever accepts "La Ilaha Illa Allahu Muhammadur Rasulullah" is a muslim. No body has right except Allah to question about somebodys Islam. Please think of the present problems faced by Islamic world and how to improve it instead of discussing such useless subjects.
Thanks for your comment. However it's not as simple as someone accepting "La Ilaha Illa Allahu Muhammadur Rasulullah" and you become a muslim. It's far from that. In fact that just shows a high level of ignorance of the Quran and other scriptures. I would advise that you read and try to understand the Quran.
The present problems in the Islamic world are in a great part due to ignorance of the Quran. It would help a great deal if the muslims could actually stop and think for a moment in what they actually believe in and saying.
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Ted,
That is the real Paganism if you mind me. Making an image out of God no matter one or several gods is Paganism. It does not matter if the image is abstract or concrete.
Salaam
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Ted,
That it is a self-inflicted punishment you can read yourself in Quran. If you do things wrong you can fast to atone for it.
And you do not need Quran to realize it is a way of showing grief or to see its usefulness to limit your worldliness.
Salaam