Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?

Armanaziz

Salam Ted.

I think it is time to wrap up this discussion which is draining much from both our time but not yielding proportionate results. Let?s first define the various levels of faith that we are discussing

People who do not believe in / accept divine books, and DO NOT accept their obligation to act based on their inherent sense of right and wrong, and due to rejection of accountability for their action they fail to act righteously. ? Let?s call this group ?Group O?.
People who do not believe in / accept divine books, but accept their obligation to act based on their inherent sense of right and wrong, and out of their sense of accountability for their action they act righteously. Let?s call this group ?Group X?.
People who supposedly believe in / accept divine books, but DO NOT accept their obligation to act based on their inherent sense of right and wrong, and due to rejection of accountability for their action they fail to act righteously. ? Let?s call this group ?Group Y?.
People who DO believe in / accept divine books (at least one of them), and accept their obligation to act based on their inherent sense of right and wrong, and out of their sense of accountability for their action they act righteously AS WELL AS they ?worship / pray? to God alone. Let?s call this group ?Group Z?.

Now let?s compare our conclusions for the ?fate? of each of these groups

Group O Both You and I agree this group is destined to the suffering of hellfire.

Group X You believe Allah ?may? forgive them and give them rewards, we do not know. I believe Allah has promised them reward and security (verse 262).

Group Y Both You and I agree this group is destined to Hell.

Group Z Both You and I agree this group (irrespective of which messenger / book they are following) are destined to the rewards from their Master.

So, after examining the above it appears that our difference in theological understanding is really very little. So there is no real reason to press on debating.

Now, let?s examine how we name each group

Group O Both of us name them kafir and zalim.

Group X You seem not to name them at all. I call them ?muslim?. Those who are rejecting messengers and holy books can be identified as ?sabian (rejectors)?, but by virtue of their sincere submission to God gifted senses of right and wrong, they too are muslims.

Group Y Do, you call them Muslim? I don?t. Per my book, they are munafiq as well as kafir. (I am hoping you?d agree).

Group Z You call them ?muslim?. For me yes of course they are ?muslim? because they have met the minimum requirement ? but they are striving to be more than muslim, they are striving to be abrar (pious). For definition of piety (al-birr) see 2177.

Thus, it shows that you and I differ significantly in terms of our use of various Quranic terms.

Thus our discussion is not so much of a theological debate, it has boiled down to the usage of specific Arabic terms. That?s a difference I am actually happy to live with for the time being.

?

It would help if you could also describe your understanding of the term "muslim" and "islam". As I explained before, muslim is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his will or following his commands from a book and doing it for the sake of obeying God. This does not apply if those beings are acting according to their natural ability to do good, their God gifted nature of doing good, since they are not knowingly doing it for God.

? ?listening to his will? meaning ?listening to Allah?s will?? How? How does one decide whether Qur?an speak?s Allah?s will or Gita or Bible or all of them ? UNLESS one filters the message of books against the ?true? benchmark of Allah?s will which is one?s own conscience?

? you insist on ?knowingly doing it for God?? then goodness for the goodness?s sake has no value? Or perhaps goodness for the goodness?s sake is the best approach to obey God because ?goodness? is the will of God?

SO ON THE CONTRARY My understanding of muslim is it is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his God gifted conscience and Intellect and doing it for the sake of our gratitude and obligation to the One who gave us the gift of life (which some people also term as ?goodness for gooness?s sake? ? that?s a mere matter of speech).

Given the above, I am providing you my last bunch of rebuttal of your definition of ?muslim?. If you still do not find my arguments convincing, I?d just have to agree to disagree and move on.

You did not accept my argument that 385 makes ?islam? as the minimum standard acceptable to God. Let?s read the verse one more time, shall we?

385 And whoever seeks a ?deen? (&#1575 other than peace/submission (&#1616 then never will (it) be accepted from him and in the hereafter he will be among the losers.

(My personal translation, cross checking recommended.)

You like to read this statement ?in the context?. I feel ?reading in the context? is a lame excuse for this verse. By choosing generic words like ?whoever? and ?never?, the author of Qur?an has clearly indicated this as a generic and universal statement. Now trying to limit the universal scope of this statement, ignoring the language of Qur?an, is equivalent of saying ?hear not to listen ( ).?

Verse 383 then says do these liars seek a religion other than what God has revealed when all creatures in heaven and earth have willingly or unwillingly. So these people of the Book who lie and create a false religion do they seek a religion other than what God has revealed.

Do this so called ?all creatures? follow what God has revealed in Qur?an or holy books through others, or do they follow their inherent sense / laws built into them by God? If you are in the illusion that there are messenger birds among all birds and messenger mountains among all mountains who preach to other birds and mountains, then I give up. But if you understand and appreciate that following their ?internal? God gifted senses / nature is enough for all other creatures to be muslim ? then it would be illogical for humans to have to follow and ?external? source to be deserving to be called by the same term. And it would have been a very inappropriate analogy for God to put forth. No, God does not put forth inappropriate analogies. RATHER, it is inappropriate to carry out pre-conceived ideas about the meaning of the term ?islam? and then try to fit that meaning in the verse. Rather we should extract the meaning of the word from the usage in Qur?an itself. Which implies just like all other creatures humans should accept ?islam? as deen by respectfully submitting to their God gifted nature.

Look at 384 once more ?

384 Say, ?We put faith in Allah and what is sent down on us and what was sent down on Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Master. We do not differentiate among any of them and we are submissive (&#1614 to Him.

(My personal translation, cross checking recommended.)

Does it really say we are muslim because we are obeying a God gifted book or following a messengers, or does it mean to say we are muslim because we know and follow the common teaching brought by all messengers? And what the common teaching can be? Follow the messenger and the book? Or be a righteous person? Although the second may be a direct result of the first, which one in essence can be called the ?common teaching? ?

Without any further clarification on how to recognize a true messenger and an authentic devine book, can "follow the messenger and the book" be considered a "common teaching"?

Let me bring you a new question. Take a look at the below verse

2132 And Abraham recommended his sons by it, as well (did) Jacob ?O my sons - indeed Allah has chosen the ?deen? (&#1614 for you, then don?t you die except while you are submissive (&#1614.?

(My personal translation, cross checking recommended.)

When Abraham and Jacob were asking their children not to die except while being ?muslim? did they mean

a) A deity named Allah somewhere out there has communicated to Abraham and asked him to be His worshiper, since you are in the same family, you must not die before you worship that deity and submit to that deity by acting as that deity commanded you through Abraham.

OR did they mean

b) Abraham was inspired to put his faith in the Master of Universe who created each one of us with our sacred senses of right and wrong. It is logically and ethically incorrect (and thereby against human nature) to worship any other deity or follow any other dogma blindly - so like every righteous human being, like every creature in the universe ? submit to the Master of the Universe by following your God-gifted senses of right and wrong and live a life of peaceful coexistence with all His creations. And make sure you do not die before you attain this state.

If you are still arguing they meant to say ?a? ? then I have to be doubtful whether you really understood the difference between Allah and a deity (tagoot). But if you agree they meant to say ?b? ? then perhaps you should rethink your definition of the term ?muslim??

With this I feel I have produced enough Qur?anic argument to display why the term ?muslim? cannot be considered to mandatorily imply to follow a messenger or a book. You keep on insisting - to be ?muslim? one must recognize a messenger and accept a holy book ? but till now have not produced any Qur?anic proof to support your claim.

In your next post I?d expect to see a clear verse that implies to be a ?muslim? one must follow a book/messenger.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

P.S. I know ?resolution? is not a perfect translation for ?deen?, I use this term more as a placeholder ? for lack of any other better choice. If you prefer a different English term I don?t mind. But ?God?s religion? sounds like an extremely poor choice. God has no religion, religions (millat) ? like millat-i-Ibrahim - are paths chosen by men to seek God.

My_Name_is_Ted

Armanaziz,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I would like to continue debating the term "muslim" as I feel it's both interesting and important. As you have quite rightly asked I need to provide examples from the Quran. While I collect my thoughts again I would recommend you take a look at the following links

http//quransmessage.com/articles/muslim%20mumin%20FM3.htm
http//quransmessage.com/articles/term%20muslim%20hijacked%20FM3.htm

They are both interesting and do a better job of explaining the terms. Thanks.

This topic is not one to "fall out" over. I feel it's increasing my understanding further the more it is challenged. I hope the same applies to you.

My_Name_is_Ted

Armanaziz,

Please also take a look at verse 53 where God is saying he has chosen Islam as a religion for the followers of the prophet Mohammed. The verse contains laws which need to be followed by the believers. A person left to use their own God gifted sense of right and wrong would never be able to know that God has forbidden blood, the flesh of swine and anything on "which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah".

53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Armanaziz

Salam Ted

I have no intension falling out of the discussion as long as it is productive. I?d like to cut-off only if the discussion becomes circular

Let?s compare our definitions of the term ?muslim? with that of brother JAI at quranmessage.com

You muslim is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his will or following his commands from a book and doing it for the sake of obeying God.

I muslim is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his God gifted conscience and Intellect and doing it for the sake of our gratitude and obligation to the One who gave us the gift of life.

JAI 'Muslim' is a term for anyone who submits or surrenders their will to the One true God of the Universe with obedience. This is irrespective of whether or not they have belief in the veracity of the Quran or its messenger.

Leaving up to you to reconcile amongst the 3 definitions above.

Please also take a look at verse 53 where God is saying he has chosen Islam as a religion for the followers of the prophet Mohammed. The verse contains laws which need to be followed by the believers. A person left to use their own God gifted sense of right and wrong would never be able to know that God has forbidden blood, the flesh of swine and anything on "which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah".

This is an interesting point worth discussing. First of all, let me clarify, if we take this verse to mean that ?Islam? is the name of a ?Religion? which was perfected with Qur?an on the day of revelation of this verse ? then that understanding challenges/negates the point that we all seemed to agree earlier ? that ? ?Islam? is not only a religion for the followers of Muhammad (pbuh).

But if we take the generic understanding of term ?islam? that we discussed for earlier verses like 2132, 383-85 and then read the verse we will get a more ?consistent? understanding.

Before going into more details, let me quickly rectify an error in the translation of the key section of the verse as you proposed

This day have I perfected your religion deen for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen been satisfied (&#1615 with Islam as your religion deen for you.?

Note, unlike 385, this verse (53) does not apply generic wording ? rather by using the term ?Today/this day? it makes it very much context dependent.

The verse says this day I am perfecting/fulfilling for you your deen ? implies the people may also have been on the deen before but there were certain imperfections in the way they understood or practiced it ? so with this verse and the verses up until this in Qur?an, God is removing those imperfections, and now that the imperfections are removed, ?islam / submission? becomes satisfactory as a deen (Life?s Resolution/Life-System).

So, my understanding goes like this ? a moralist deist who does not follow any scripture may still be muslim by submitting to his conscience and intellect with due sincerity ? but in absence of a reliable guidance there may be imperfections in his understanding.

For example, he may sincerely believe it is ?fair and equitable? to give sons and daughters equal claim on inheritance. But if he had access to a guidance he would have understood that a society which gives the males more ?economic? responsibility in family maintenance and fair means to execute those greater responsibility is indeed more likely to be ?fair and equitable? to the females who have a greater ?biological? responsibility in family bearing.

Another example he may sincerely believe it is more ethical to allow adult humans "freedom of choice" over whether he should take the pleasure in intoxicants, but if he had relied on real guidance he would have understood that discouraging all form of intoxicants altogether has greater benefit to society and thereby is closer to our conscience.

And by providing such necessary guidance (like these ones and many others), Qur?an perfects/fulfils the deen (Life?s Resolution/Life-System), and makes the ?islam? as practiced by the followers of Qur?an more satisfactory to Allah.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

My_Name_is_Ted

muslim is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his God gifted conscience and Intellect and doing it for the sake of our gratitude and obligation to the One who gave us the gift of life.

I can see what you are thinking. I just need to explain the proper way for you to understand I think.

I think you may be confused with the meaning of the word "submit" and how it should apply. When someone submits it means they yield to another authority. I don't think it's right to say you submit to your conscience and intellect since that is your own, its not another authority.

The pagans believe(d) that they are doing the right thing. They love the false gods. They really believe in them. Some will cry, fall prostrate, feel overwhelmed, feel blessed, etc.

If you ask them are they doing the right think they will say "of course". So when a pagan submits himself to a false god should not his God gifted conscience and intellect tell him he is doing wrong? Or do you think it does and he ignores it?

I think the pagans truly love their false gods. Even if they believe in God they may say that the god they worship is only to get them closer to the supreme God. So something is wrong here.

So what I am saying is that this God gifted conscience seems to allow pagans to worship other gods without feeling bad like you would do when you lie or steal.

A 5 year old child does not know the concept of submitting. A child will do what it has been designed to do. Doing something you are designed to do is not the same as submitting yourself to God. Same goes for adults. We are designed to want a easy life with lots of happiness and do things as we please. However those who submit to the will of God are required to go down the hard narrow path, to suffer if need be, to say no to certain things, to fast, to give without expecting anything in return, to be patient in times of calamity and distress. These are not things we are naturally inclined to do but we do it because God has taught us.

Man_of_Faith

Ted,

It says in 53 that those are not sanctified (goodly) rather than forbidden.

The reason? It says "Anema" in the beginning of the passage which equals something like "it is not" and haraam means sanctified/goodly.

Haraam means that something is sanctified and thus why the word is used in "al-masjed al-haram, even if the phrase does not refer to some house in the deserts of Arabia. That is a Pagan idea.

It is like a doctor saying "you should not eat this or that" and not a dogmatic law. All commandments are a spiritual guidance.

Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted

Ted,

It says in 53 that those are not sanctified (goodly) rather than forbidden.

The reason? It says "Anema" in the beginning of the passage which equals something like "it is not" and haraam means sanctified/goodly.

Haraam means that something is sanctified and thus why the word is used in "al-masjed al-haram, even if the phrase does not refer to some house in the deserts of Arabia. That is a Pagan idea.

It is like a doctor saying "you should not eat this or that" and not a dogmatic law. All commandments are a spiritual guidance.

Salaam

That may be so according to your version of the Quran and in your reality. But I take the Quran for what it is. God has made it simple. I'll take the simple meaning and try my best to live by it.

I have read some of your posts and I strongly feel that you have big misunderstandings. It doesn't fit in with the most peoples understandings of the Quran. I feel you are looking for things which as simply not there, making things more complicated than they need to be.

The message is simply, believe in God and work righteousness. Just obey God according to what he says in the Quran and you'll be fine.

amin

How one submit to Him alone as per my understanding of Quran,

By acknowledging that everything happens out of his will, there by reducing one's ego.

He is one who decides finally and so taking his role is a strict no. Not Thinking he has different yardstick for different people, He guides whomsoever He wills.

Following and respecting his signs of Goodness, thereby not ignoring Him and not doing idol worshiping or praising objects above its worth.

Man_of_Faith

You should do the will of the Creator synchronously rather than separate from the Creator. It is a misconception that Allah must be treated separately like in Paganism.

You personally should cease to exist alone and instead merge your mind with the consciousness which is Allah. You must acknowledge that you do not really exist but there is only Allah in existence, so if you like to persist you need to "go under the umbrella", so to say allegorically.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Ted,

The Creator made it simple yes and it is, but it does not help if you follow lies. I take Quran for what it says.

Does it not ring a bell for you when masjed haram uses the same word which you also used for forbidden? Haram means sanctified/approved.

And no God does not want you to believe but you must realize.

You may have read many of my posts but what you read is the real interpretation.

If one is wise they would instead ponder upon what I say to you and other people.

Ponder upon hara(a)m. Sanctified or forbidden? Can you not see the inconsistency and logical fallacy?

literally means "Good Foundation Thereof". What do you think it comprehensively means? Goodly, sanctified or approved!

Salaam

amin

Haraam by the way can also refer to that which is unknown referring to His nature, that none can understand or grasp, there by, its of high value, its a symbol of God. and by the way the other masjid is the Al Aqsa, which refers to the end or it represents the heaven.

This is my understanding.

Man_of_Faith

Sorry. I do not share that understanding. Arabic words do not have multiple completely different meanings.

Salaam

amin

I agree i know nothing about Arabic grammar or etymology, but i know this from another language root, that something unattainable considered to be of great respect, its a common psychological aspect of humans.

I think the pyramids(haram) do were called so, due to its tall and unattainable nature.

Man_of_Faith

Salaam amin,

I suppose it is rather that it is due to their grandiose nature. Haram marks exemplary or approved but also that it is goodly for something to be done.

I think in the case of the pyramids it was for Pagan rituals that harem was used in conjunction. They were holy/sacred in their eyes.

But it is a mistake in the sectarian "Islam" to use that as "forbidden". It is because when it is supposed to signify forbidden the text says 'annema' (&#1575 first which is supposed to say "it is not", i.e. it is not approved/goodly to etc.

By the way, this is deemed controversial by most and it is part of my realization project.

Salaam

Armanaziz

Salam Ted.

It is really very amusing to me that the arguments that I should give you to support my standpoint ? you bring the same arguments and try to convince me the other way. Let?s look carefully at what you are saying

I think you may be confused with the meaning of the word "submit" and how it should apply. When someone submits it means they yield to another authority. I don't think it's right to say you submit to your conscience and intellect since that is your own, its not another authority.

The pagans believe(d) that they are doing the right thing. They love the false gods. They really believe in them. Some will cry, fall prostrate, feel overwhelmed, feel blessed, etc.

You don?t think it's right to say you submit to your conscience and intellect since that is your own, it is not another authority. Then the Pagans ARE submitting to another authority. If they do not listen to their God-gifted conscience and intellect and they choose to submit to an external authority out of fear / belief / tradition ? how can you say a Pagan is doing wrong? An ISIS kuffar also lives in the illusion that he is diligently worshipping a deity named Allah which wants him to establish the rule of that deity on earth. On what basis do you say their ?another authority? is not the correct ?authority? and your/mine is the correct one?

We all need to understand that God/Allah is not ?another authority?. God is very much within each of us, closer than our jugular veins. Every time we are taking a moral decision ? say, should we give this beggar some money or should we walk away ? He is there inside us closely observing what decisions we are making and how and why we are making those.

Say you feel pity for the beggar and give him some money. What is this pity? It is nothing but a recognition of the commonness between your ownself and the beggar ? a strange sense of commonness that is not saying ?look Ted someday you can be like this begger? ? rather it is saying ?look Ted, this beggar is a human being like you. You could have been born as this beggar and begging on this street today?. Thus this pity / compassion is in fact a subconscious recognition of the common origin of your own self and the beggar ? the common origin which apparently arbitrarily (or out of His mercy/wisdom) have led you to become ?Ted? and let the beggar be what he is. That common origin is Allah. So doing good for the sake of goodness (pity / compassion) IS INDEED doing good seeking the face of Allah.

On the otherhand say, I am selling a watch to a customer. I know this watch is a fake brand watch and thereby of inferior quality. But I choose to pretend to the customer that it is a genuine brand and rip him off. When I would be doing this my God-gifted sense within me would tell me - look Arman you could have been the buyer, then would it be fair for you sell this watch at this price to you. Wouldn't the common origin of you and him demand that you treat him fairly? I can choose to repress that sense and distance "me" from the rest of the universe and tell myself - no serving "me" is my only goal, I have no obligation to anyone else. That would be ungratefulness (kufr) to the common origin of the universe. Then I'd not be submitting to the common origin of all of us.

One does not recognize Allah until one is able to recognize Allah?s will within oneself. Abiding by this internal authority is the best, no - rather the only, way to submit to Allah ? the only way to be a muslim. On the other hand the person who chooses to repress their faith in the internal authority is a kafir.

Then when we come across an ?another authority? ? be it the Qur?an, Bible, Gita, the Book of Mormon it becomes our responsibility to reconcile between our internal authority and the external authority. ONLY IF the external authority seems to be perfectly in tune with our internal authority one should accept the external authority as binding. And by obeying the external authority fully validated by ones internal authority the muslim strives to become pious (abrar) ? he is not submitting to ?another authority?, he is submitting to his same ?internal authority? in a path approved by his same ?internal authority?.

3193 ?Our Master, indeed we have heard a caller calling, towards faith, saying, ?Put faith in your Master.? So we put faith. Our Master, then forgive our misdeeds from us and suppress our faults for us and let us pass away along with the pious.?

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

On the contrary, when a kafir "blindly" accepts the external authority ignoring his internal authority he is only following a tagoot ? even if that tagoot is based on the holiest of the scriptures. That is the case of Nazis, KKK, crusaders, Zionist oppressors, ISIS, Boko Haram and so on.

So think again ? which one is the primary obligation ? following the internal authority or another authority? If it is the another authority, what makes the devoted pagans and ISIS wrong? Aren?t they diligently and sincerely submitting to an external authority?

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Scimitar

So the proper understanding is absolutely necessary, to KNOW what you are worshiping and why,

The proper understanding would be "Who you are worshipping" not "What".

Scimi

FreedomStands

The proper understanding would be "Who you are worshipping" not "What".

Scimi

Please explain further if you can? I used the term "What" deliberately to indicate that what is being referred to is "what the correct concept is" not "who the correct concept is". Why the distinction? Well because anyone can say "Allah" but if they have the wrong idea of "What" that is they are referring to, then their worship is misdirected to a false concept.

So anyone can say they worship "Allah" and that "Allah is a man in the sky" so the "What" is where they are going wrong, while they still may retain the proper name or even call such "God" while they do not understand "What" God is or should refer to logically based on necessity.

Do you understand? Thank you for noticing that and bringing it up!

My_Name_is_Ted

Please explain further if you can? I used the term "What" deliberately to indicate that what is being referred to is "what the correct concept is" not "who the correct concept is". Why the distinction? Well because anyone can say "Allah" but if they have the wrong idea of "What" that is they are referring to, then their worship is misdirected to a false concept.

So anyone can say they worship "Allah" and that "Allah is a man in the sky" so the "What" is where they are going wrong, while they still may retain the proper name or even call such "God" while they do not understand "What" God is or should refer to logically based on necessity.

Do you understand? Thank you for noticing that and bringing it up!

Can be either.

What - people can worship our desires, money, objects.
Who - people can worship prophets, angels, satan, other people, etc.

My_Name_is_Ted

Armanaziz,

My apologies for the late reply. It's at times like this I wish I knew the Quran off by heart, I'd then be able quote verses from the Quran more fluently.

You don?t think it's right to say you submit to your conscience and intellect since that is your own, it is not another authority. Then the Pagans ARE submitting to another authority. If they do not listen to their God-gifted conscience and intellect and they choose to submit to an external authority out of fear / belief / tradition ? how can you say a Pagan is doing wrong? An ISIS kuffar also lives in the illusion that he is diligently worshipping a deity named Allah which wants him to establish the rule of that deity on earth. On what basis do you say their ?another authority? is not the correct ?authority? and your/mine is the correct one?

I think there is some confusion as to what is "God-gifted conscience and intellect" and "Submitting to the will of God". I'll try to clarify.

"God-gifted conscience and intellect" is something all humans have been created with. They are designed this way.

826 O man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?-
827 Him Who created thee. Fashioned thee in due proportion, and gave thee a just bias;

We have been created with a just bias. We have been designed/made to do good in the world. Therefore whether you are pagan, atheist, believer or whatever you will recognise what it is to be fair and just. When injustice is done to you will feel it and know it. When you see a fellow human in danger you will want to save him. If he is hungry you will want to share it with him ,etc., etc. If a nation does not exercise good, just behaviour then it is a nation which will not prosper regardless of whether the nation are believers or non believers. We have also been designed to think about why we are here, why we exist, what is our purpose, etc. Regardless of whether we are believers or not. It has been scientifically proven that children naturally believe in God.

"Submitting to the will of God" is exactly that. Note it is submitting to the true God and not a made up one. So if a pagan submits himself to a other gods or even one made up god then he is not a muslim. A muslim is a term which is applied to people who submit to the true God. Submitting to another authority does not make you a muslim.
Also to clarify again, submitting to your God gifted conscence is not the same as being a muslim. It is simply inclining to what you have been designed to do.

To reiterate again I am not saying that only muslims will go to heaven. I have never said that. So those people who have not believed in the true God for whatever genuine reason could be that the muslims around them were corrupt or they never really understood what they were being preached, or the message never reached them) may simply get to heaven because God wills it. It is up to God to guide who he wills and it will be a matter between them and God.

What I am saying regarding the term muslim is that it is a term which applies to a certain group of people who fit a specific criteria. This criteria involves obeying the commands that God has revealed through a book or other form of communication. So Abraham became a muslim when he heard the commands of God an obeyed him. He was not muslim when he stopped believing in the idols that his community worshipped, he was simply a believer. Abraham became muslim when he began to obey the commands of God.

The followers of the prophet Mohammed were not muslims in the beginning. They became muslims when they began to obey the commands of God. So when God commanded them to fight and they fought then they were muslim. Those who believed but declined to fight were not muslims even though they believed in the revelation being brought to the prophet and they believed in the one true God.

So again, being a believer in one God and doing good works does not make you a muslim (and it does not stop you from getting to heaven). Believing in one God, doing good works AND obeying the commands from a book of God or other form of revelation does make you muslim.

Take a look at the story of Jonah. He was a muslim, a Jew, he believed in God. He obeyed Gods commands upto a point. When he disobeyed God he was no longer a muslim but he was still a believer. If Jonah had not repented and prayed to God he would have been given the penalty of hell. This is quite an important point to note. When God gives a command it can't be disobeyed.

? how can you say a Pagan is doing wrong? An ISIS kuffar also lives in the illusion that he is diligently worshipping a deity named Allah which wants him to establish the rule of that deity on earth. On what basis do you say their ?another authority? is not the correct ?authority? and your/mine is the correct one?

I can say a pagan is doing wrong because I can claim he is not following a revelation from God. A pagan should be able to show me a book which has been revealed from God. If he shows me a book and claims that it is from God then I should be able to examine that book and see if it is consistent and fits in with reality and logic. However even though I believe a pagan is doing wrong I think it would be very rude of me to say arrogantly. I should first of all lead by example and then maybe ask him to consider my book. And likewise I should read his book and respect it.

Armanaziz

Salam Ted.

"God-gifted conscience and intellect" is something all humans have been created with. They are designed this way.

We have been created with a just bias. We have been designed/made to do good in the world. Therefore whether you are pagan, atheist, believer or whatever you will recognise what it is to be fair and just. When injustice is done to you will feel it and know it. When you see a fellow human in danger you will want to save him. If he is hungry you will want to share it with him ,etc., etc. If a nation does not exercise good, just behaviour then it is a nation which will not prosper regardless of whether the nation are believers or non believers. We have also been designed to think about why we are here, why we exist, what is our purpose, etc. Regardless of whether we are believers or not. It has been scientifically proven that children naturally believe in God.

"Submitting to the will of God" is exactly that. Note it is submitting to the true God and not a made up one.

Up to this point I am with you ? you have nicely explained what "God-gifted conscience and intellect" means and what "Submitting to the will of God" means. I am so glad that we have a common understanding on this points ? it makes my explanation so much more easier.

The only minor point I?d like to correct would be ?It has been scientifically proven that children naturally believe in accept God?. I am not sure about the scientific experiment that you mentioned (I?d love to see more details on that) but my understanding is children (and even most adults) naturally accept there is a superior authority who is the common authority over everything that exists ? and if you do bad things the superior authority will somehow make sure the bad comes back to you. I understand that these two acceptances are termed as ?Amana billahi (faith in Allah) and Amana bil Yawmil Akhir (faith in the last day) in Qur'an. Such faith is inherent in humans. However, Believing is shaped by what the children learn from their environment. Some learn to believe that superior authority to be One and Only God (Abrahamic belief), some learn to believe Him as a panentheist Brahman existing in everything (Hindu belief), some learn to believe in a non-personal spirit of the universe that returns good karma with good and bad with bad (Budhdhist belief), and some simply acknowledge that we have not attained the level of knowledge to believe in any of this, rather we should only accept the morality as a naturally binding obligation upon us (agonistic belief). The acceptance (faith/Iman) is natural, the belief (Janna) is learned.

So if a pagan submits himself to a other gods or even one made up god then he is not a muslim. A muslim is a term which is applied to people who submit to the true God. Submitting to another authority does not make you a muslim.
Also to clarify again, submitting to your God gifted conscence is not the same as being a muslim. It is simply inclining to what you have been designed to do.

Now that we have agreed what submit to will of God means, we need to investigate what ?submit to other god? mean. Say, if I am a bad person ? I lie, cheat and steal and even kill and rape, but I diligently perform my salaat rituals. Am I submitting to God? I am sure you?d agree ? of course not. My ?salaat ritual / prayer? is only utterance of my mouth and my random body movement ? the submission MUST be reflected in my action in life. I may be worshiping God, but I am submitting to devil (ego, pride, envy, greed etc.). Taking this same understanding from the other side those who ?worship? other gods ? but in their action in life lives the life of a righteous person ? should be considered as people who submit to God but are incorrect / ignorant in their conceptualization of God and their rituals. They may be worshiping tagoot but they are still submitting to God. Only when they overrule their God gifted conscience and intellect in favor of this ?other god? (e.g. a pagan priest making a human sacrifice) can we say they are not submitting to God, rather submitting to a tagoot.

To reiterate again I am not saying that only muslims will go to heaven. I have never said that. So those people who have not believed in the true God for whatever genuine reason could be that the muslims around them were corrupt or they never really understood what they were being preached, or the message never reached them) may simply get to heaven because God wills it. It is up to God to guide who he wills and it will be a matter between them and God.

What I am saying regarding the term muslim is that it is a term which applies to a certain group of people who fit a specific criteria. This criteria involves obeying the commands that God has revealed through a book or other form of communication. So Abraham became a muslim when he heard the commands of God an obeyed him. He was not muslim when he stopped believing in the idols that his community worshipped, he was simply a believer. Abraham became muslim when he began to obey the commands of God.
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So again, being a believer in one God and doing good works does not make you a muslim (and it does not stop you from getting to heaven). Believing in one God, doing good works AND obeying the commands from a book of God or other form of revelation does make you muslim.

Yes, I know that you define the term ?muslim? to imply a certain group of people who fit a specific criteria. This criteria involves obeying the commands that God has revealed through a book or other form of communication.

And please reconfirm ? this ?other form of communication/revelation? cannot be a realization coming out of one?s own sincere soul searching ? it has to be an ?external source??

If that is the case, I disagree with your definition and I am convinced from my study of Qur?an that Qur?an does not use the term ?muslim? to mean what you imply above. I have given you many verses and explained in my earlier posts why ?obeying the commands that God has revealed through a book? cannot be a necessary condition for being a muslim (per Qur?an). You keep on insisting to ?hear not to listen?.

The followers of the prophet Mohammed were not muslims in the beginning. They became muslims when they began to obey the commands of God. So when God commanded them to fight and they fought then they were muslim. Those who believed but declined to fight were not muslims even though they believed in the revelation being brought to the prophet and they believed in the one true God.

This is your wishful thinking. Please bring proof from Qur?an. RATHER, those who believed but declined to fight were still faithful (mu?min) but of a lower rank

495 The ones sitting (inactive) among the faithful, except the disabled ones, are not level with the ones striving in Allah?s path with their wealth and their souls. Allah has graced the ones striving with their wealth and their souls above the ones sitting (inactive) - in rank. And to everyone Allah promises the nicest. And Allah has graced the ones striving (hard) with their wealth and their souls above the ones sitting (inactive) - with a great reward.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

You can claim they were mumin but not muslim ? but that?s your claim only. Rather Qur?an says the only deen acceptable to Allah is islam. Earlier you seemed to be confusing between abrar (pious) and muslim (submissive). Now, you are confusing mujahideen (striver) with muslim (submissive).

So Abraham became a muslim when he heard the commands of God an obeyed him. He was not muslim when he stopped believing in the idols that his community worshipped, he was simply a believer. Abraham became muslim when he began to obey the commands of God.

This is once again an erroneous understanding. When Abraham became aware of God/Allah to be the supreme authority and only authority worth our worship ? he became muttaqui (conscious). But he did not become ?muslim? overnight. One does not become muslim at a point in time through acceptance of a book or external communication. Books and communications are guides, they are not the destination. Being muslim (submissive) is a continuous journey which one undertakes throughout his life ? that is why Abraham and Ismael prayed to be muslims

2128 ?Our Master! Also (please) assign (both of) us as submissive (&#1616 to You and from our offspring a community submissive to You and show us our rites , and relent to us ? Indeed You are You - The Relenting, the Merciful.?

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Still in doubt that Abraham and Ismael were trying to be muslim by following some book? Consider the following verses

365 O! Fraternity of the book - why do you debate concerning Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not sent down but from after him? So, why do you not understand?

366 Here you are ? the ones who (even) debated about which you had knowledge; then why do you debate about which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows, while you do not know.

367 Abraham did not happen to be a yahudi (i.e. repenter) or a nasara (i.e. helper), but rather, he happened to be a precise muslim (i.e. submissive) ? and he did not happen to be among the assigners of partners (to Allah).

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Don?t you see that the above verse implies following a specific book / external communication is not necessary for being a muslim like Abraham? If your reply is - Abraham followed his own book which was an earlier version of Torah and the Gospel and Qur?an ? than doesn?t that make the above Quranic claim nonsensical? Pay attention brother ? the quoted verses (365-67) clearly imply that following a specific book or any book is NOT A NECESSARY condition for being a muslim.

Thus, when Qur?an says Abraham happened to be a precise muslim it is a certification of his life?s resolution (deen) to submit to his God gifted conscience and intellect that he successfully observed throughout his life ? NOT his alliance/acceptance of any book or external source.

If you still want to wishfully think that the proclamation of followership of Qur?an or the followership of divine books by the people of the book would somehow elevate us to a preferred ?muslim? status by which we would gain some sort of preferential treatment in afterlife, then I hope the following verses put the last nails in the coffin of such wishful thinking

4123 By neither your wishful thinking, nor the wishful thinking of the fraternity of the book ? whoever acts in wickedness will be repaid for it and will neither find any patron nor any helper from beside Allah.

4124 And whoever acts righteously ? among the male or the female ? and is a faithful, then they are the ones to enter the garden and they will not be wronged by crumbs.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

I have developed my understanding of the Quranic term ?muslim? through my personal examination and careful pondering over the verses of Qur?an. But I do realize this understanding is not very common. Absolute majority of the people who call themselves ?Muslims? consider only the followers of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be Muslims. You may be a bit different from them but still your definition of ?muslim? is way apart from how I see the term to be used in Qur?an. If you have further ?Quranic? evidence to support your understanding of the term ?muslim?, you are welcome to share. Otherwise you can repeat 1 million times that ?to be a muslim you must follow a book of God? ? I don?t care.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman