Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165

Hizbullah

Peace,

http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165

The investigated Qur?an manuscript with the signature MA VI 165
http//www.commdiginews.com/world-news/middle-east/worlds-oldest-quran-discovered-and-may-be-linked-to-imam-ali-30011/

WASHINGTON, November 19, 2014 ? Researchers from the Project Coranica at the University Library in T?bingen, Germany have discovered a copy of the Quran that may be the oldest in the world, dating to within 20-40 years of the death of Islam?s Prophet Muhammad. The copy of the Quran, dubbed Ma VI 165 by scientists, appears in the famous ?Kufic script?, popularized by Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib who moved the center of the Islamic government to Kufa in the after being elected as ?Caliph? in 656 AD. The manuscript ?with a 95.4% statistical probability can be dated to the period between Ad 649 -675,? according to Medieval Histories Magazine.

http//oi62.tinypic.com/rk23xz.jpg

Salam Noon/

Are you really sure these are the oldest Quran?

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

Salam Noon/

Are you really sure these are the oldest Quran?

Peace

Peace Hizbullah,

http//217.218.67.233/photo/20141123/387194_quran-sample%20.jpg

The photo shows taking a sample and using carbon-14 dating on three samples of the manuscript parchment, the researchers concluded that it was more than 95 percent likely to have originated in the period 649-675.

PERF 558 is oldest Arabic papyrus ~643. It is a bilingual Arabic-Greek tax receipt for delivery of sheep.

shr/lunar cycle Jumada the first from sanatin/date two and twenty and written his son Hadidu

http//oi57.tinypic.com/260uyjt.jpg

Hizbullah

Peace Noon, we all due respect

These are my understanding, please bear with me...

First off, we must know geographically where the Quran was sent down. Understanding how Arabic evolved to its current forms is an important step. Some theories on the origin of Arabic support a possible early Persian influence. Many believe that the Arabic script was first used in the Hrah and ?Anbr area of Iraq which was under the Persian rule during that period. Some of the theories explored by Ibn al-Nadm, a well-known Muslim librarian and historian of the tenth century, listed the so called ?Pre-Islamic? Arabic names from that same area who supposedly designed the early forms. Ibn al-Nadm, described several old and new Persian scripts. His sketches of letters shapes of some of the surviving ones in his time showed curves resembling those of old Pahlavi similar to those of Persian Nasta`lq style. Referring to an earlier version of one such script, he called Firamuz, which is sometimes cited as the Arabic-like Persian script predating Arabic, Ibn al-Nadm explained that it ?was derived and wrote by the Persians. It is a recent development in two forms.? His statement clearly indicates that this Arabic derived Persian script came later.

So the early Arabic script, Jazm, was independently developed by the South Arabian tribes, under the influence of the Persians, who were their ally, from localized versions of cursive Musnad, in the 5th / 6th century. After all, early Jazm shares with Musnad its exact 28 letters. It also shares with it an early use of multiple shapes per letter that became widely utilized later. It even used several Musnad shapes without major modifications. Jazm may have coexisted with and influenced by more prominent Aramaic scripts in its vicinity and particularly Nabataean. However Jazm approach to connectivity and shapes was quite different.

Bushr ibn `Abd al- Malik al-Kind, believed to be a so called ?Christian? Arab, was the first to bring Jazm from Hrah to Mecca. Bushr was the brother of al-Ukaydir, a leader from ancient Dumat al-Jandal (ouside Sakkah of northern Saudi Arabia) that is located 200 miles southwest of Hrah. At that time, during the 5th - 6th centuries, it was the capital of the Arab kingdom of Kinda. Below is a rough translation of the so called ?Pre Islamic? poem, attributed to a man from Mecca or Dumat al-Jandal, which is widely referenced in Arabic literature

Do not deny Bushr?s favors to you
He was a man of open blessed wisdom

He brought you al-Jazm calligraphy until you saved
the money that was plenty and scattered

You then moved the pens back and forth
as skilful as scribers of Kisr?* and Qaysar ?

And had no need to Musnad of father Himyr ?
and whatever the Himyrite* kings wrote on pages

So, these proofs that the present Quran was written in the South Arabian script! But why South Arabian when the Prophet was not an Arab?

Why was the Quran written in South Arabian Script when the Prophet was not an Arab?

AQ1206
And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of narratives and complete His favour upon you and upon the family of Jacob, as He completed it upon your fathers before, Abraham and Isaac. Indeed, your Lord is Knowing and Wise.

AQ2927
And We gave to Him Ishaq and Yaqub and placed in his descendants Prophethood and the Book. And We gave him his reward in this world, and indeed, he is in the hereafter among the righteous.

The above verses proofs that prophethood from the family of Abraham was granted to the descendents of Prophet Ishaq. The Last Prophet was a direct descendent of Prophet Ishaq and not Ismael as the Traditional Islamic sources implies! The Arabs are descended from the Prophet Ismael. In fact, all of us in this world at present descend from the 11 sons of Ismael.

In the Torah - Genesis 17, ALLAH promises Abraham that HE will make Abraham?s descendants from Ismael a Great Nation. The Quran supports this in verse 0454 and 0686

Further, Quran in Chapter 12, relates that eleven planets representing the 11 sons of Ismael, the sun represent Yaqub and the moon represent Yusuf?s mother.

AQ1204
When Joseph said to his father, "O my father, indeed I have seen eleven planets and the sun and the moon; I saw them prostrating to me."

AQ12100
And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration.

The Quran also confirms that there were messengers working under the instructions of the Last Prophet!

AQ;0332 - Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

AQ;2351 - "O messengers, eat from the good foods and work righteousness. Indeed, I, of what you do, am Knowing.

The above verses are proofs that there were messengers during the era of the Prophet. Instruction from the ALMIGHTY to the Prophet, to the people to follow their respective messengers!

AQ;1404 - And We did not send any messenger except in the language of his people to state clearly for them???...

Messengers were sent with the Language of His People - so that the people are able to understand the Message that the Messengers were sent with.

AND

AQ.1587 - And We have certainly given you, , SEVEN OF THE SECOND ONE and THE GRAND QURAN.

The above verse tells us that there were 7 numbers of the Quran, that is, seven translated version translated in 7 different languages.
So it is explicit that the audience of the Quran were not only the Arabs but to the people of this world. It is impossible that the original Quran was written in ?Arabic?. Musnad script was one of the languages of the Quran that it was translated to. South Arabia was the last stop of the Prophet and plausible, his demised. 300 years later after the Persian defeat in the Battle of Qadasiyyah, the Arabization of the Middle East begun. That was the era where all versions of the Quran were destroyed except for the Arabic version.

Al-Namarah Inscription

The Namarah inscription was exceptionally unique. It was actually about a previously unknown military action by a person who, while working with or under the Roman Byzantine Army, managed to defeat the Muslim Army in the early 4th century CE.

In thee soul of Umr al-Qays bin Amr, king of all
Arabs, holder of the crown lion, and king of al-Asadiyyin
and Nazr and their kings. Akd has defeated Mizhij engaging it in a heated battle in the narrow roads of Najrn, city of Shimr, king of Ma?ad, and befittingly differentiated between its people and placed them under the protection of the Roman Cavalry ? no other king has accomplished what he had accomplished. Akd died on December 7, 328 CE. O? the happiness of those who gave birth to him.

AQ
3002 - The Romans have been won.

3003 - In the land close by. But they, after their victory, will be defeated, within several years.

3004 - To ALLAH belongs the command before and after. And that day the believers will rejoice.

3005 ? With the succour of ALLAH. He provides succour to which He wills, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Merciful.

The Quran mentioned of an event that happened, which coincide with the Namarah Inscription. That means that particular event is the first ever happened and it is Quranic evidence! Umru al-Qays was the pioneer who took over Najran militarily. Before him was Aelius Gallus in 27 BCE and Aurelius in 272 ? 273 CE. It was plausible the event took place during the era of Aurelius.

To proof that Aurelius was probably the mastermind of the military expedition of King Umru AlQays, the historical evidence, the Baraqish Inscription, found in a cemetery near Baraqish, not far from ancient Ma?rib, South Arabia, which is a great relevance in the study of the campaign of King Umru Al Qays against Najran in South Arabia. The inscription refers to a cavalryman, Publis Cornelius, a Roman Cavalryman. What was the Roman cavalryman doing the far south of Arabia? The publisher of the inscription, Paolo M Costa, based on C14 dating, has argued that ?it can be tentatively dated to the end of 3rd Century and early 4th Century of CE? and not the expedition of Aelius Gallus against South Arabia in 27 BCE as G W Bowersock concluded in that context. This proofs that the Quran was already present in 3rd CE!

TALMUD SOURCES IN THE QURAN

Two bodies of analysis developed, and two works of Talmud were created. The older compilation is called the Jerusalem Talmud or the Talmud Yerushalmi. It was written in the 4th century CE in Galilee. The Babylonian Talmud was written about the year 500 CE, and continued to be edited later.

Many of the Stories in the Quran such as the stories of Abraham and the Idols, the sons of Adam, the Qur'anic account of the Golden Calf, were written in the Talmud! Why all these stories in the Quran suddenly appeared in the Talmud in the 4th and 5th Century CE? The answer is that it was the Jews who plagiarized what is from the Quran!

CONCLUSION

With all these evidence, proofs that the Quran was written even much earlier than what you have put up. These ancient Quran with its original language and translated versions were destroyed by the Umayyad Khilafa during the Arabization of the Middle East. What we have now is the Jazm script translated version!

Peace

Birdy

Peace all,

I follow this topic with huge interest because I do some research also on the old existent Quran language and used letters , as well as scripts/writings. So I was looking for the oldest, i.e. the first Arabic script with diacritics etc. I've found an interesting article on the grammar development of the Arabic written language, but the article is written in German language.
I'm gona try to translate a part of it into English and will post it here.
I want to emphasize that I haven't proved the authenticity of the statements in the article, cos I've found only this one source on the net.

Source

https//parseundparse.wordpress.com/2012/04/13/sibbuye-der-iraner-der-die-arabische-grammatik-schrieb/

"Dem internationalen Kalender zufolge ist die erste Woche des Jahres 793 n. Chr. die Woche, in der der erhabene, ber?hmte, iranische Sprachwissenschaftler ?Sibbuye? starb. Sibbuye war der Erste, der ?die Grammatik? der arabischen Sprache niederschrieb. Sibbuye ist ebenso eine in der persischen Literatur hoch angesehene Pers?nlichkeit.
Er wurde in der Stadt Beyz? in der Provinz F?rs geboren. In welchem Jahr er geboren wurde, ist nicht bekannt (vermutet wird 760 n. Chr.). Geschichtlich gesehen ist er deswegen wichtig, weil er der Erste war, der f?r die arabische Sprache eine Grammatik geschrieben und die Laute und Stimmen dieser Sprache genau definiert hat. Die Vokale ?O? , ?A? , ?E? , und die ?Nunation? sind seine Erfindungen. Aufgrund dessen bekam er den Beinamen ?Sibbuye Nahvi? (Sibbuye, der Grammatiker) .
Ohne seine M?hen, die zu seiner Zeit eine Meisterleistung waren, h?tte die arabische Sprache sich nicht entwickeln k?nnen, und die Festigung dieser Sprache w?re nicht m?glich gewesen. Somit, war es ein Iraner, der f?r die Araber die Grammatik niederschrieb."

Summary and translation

Sibbuye is died in the first week of year 793. He was a prominent Iranian linguist and was the first person who wrote the Arabic grammar.
Sibbuye is also a highly respected person of the Persian literature. He was born in the city called Beyza, province Fars. The year of his birth is not known, it is assumed 760 CE.

On the historical point of view he is an important person because he was the first who wrote grammar for Arabic language and he also precise defined phonetics and voices of this language.
The vocals O,A,E and "nunation"= tanwin are his inventions. As a result he became the name Sibbuye Nahvi what means Sibbuye, the grammarian.
Without his efforts, which were a masterpiece in that time, the Arabic language would not be developed as it is, and the consolidation of the Arabic language would not have been possible. Thus, it was an Iranian who wrote the grammar for the Arabs.

I hope this information is conducive for the researches on the topic as well for you who want to work on it.

Noon_waalqalami

Peace Noon, we all due respect

These are my understanding, please bear with me...

Why was the Quran written in South Arabian Script when the Prophet was not an Arab?

Peace Hizbullah,

4144 and in case made we it Qur?an of foreign of (language) would say they of why not explained verses its foreign (language) and an Arab?

The Arabs are descended from the Prophet Ismael. In fact, all of us in this world at present descend from the 11 sons of Ismael.

Albanians too say their language is so old that Adam spoke it!
Thus with that same "proof" we are all descend from whoever.

Further, Quran in Chapter 12, relates that eleven planets representing the 11 sons of Ismael, the sun represent Yaqub and the moon represent Yusuf?s mother.

11 sons of Ismael or 11 Yusuf's brothers?

124 when said Joseph to father his O father that I I saw one ten (eleven) planets and the sun and the moon saw them to me sjidna 125 said O son mine not thou mention vision your on/about brothers your so plan they of to you plot of surely the devil to the humankind enemy clear

12100 and raised parents dual his on the throne and fell they of to him sujjadan and said O father this one elucidation vision mine from before hence made it lord mine truthful and surely most best with me when delivered me from the prison and came with you from the bedouin life from after that caused discord the devil between me and between brothers mine surely lord mine gentle to what wills surely he he the knower the wise

The Quran also confirms that there were messengers working under the instructions of the Last Prophet!

3144 and not Muhammad except messenger hence passed from before him the messengers

AQ.1587 - And We have certainly given you, , SEVEN OF THE SECOND ONE and THE GRAND QURAN.

The above verse tells us that there were 7 numbers of the Quran, that is, seven translated version translated in 7 different languages.

1587 and indeed we have given you seven of from al-mathan/the reiterated and the Qur?an the great

What do all above have to do with topic of oldest dated Qu'ran?
Please post evidence Qur'an any other language besides Arabic?

http//darkroom.stylist.co.uk/980/80e117e1d085d6456a86474c647447a818c6373453ba010ae2b0c675f90e9302/196.jpg

TALMUD SOURCES IN THE QURAN

Two bodies of analysis developed, and two works of Talmud were created. The older compilation is called the Jerusalem Talmud or the Talmud Yerushalmi. It was written in the 4th century CE in Galilee. The Babylonian Talmud was written about the year 500 CE, and continued to be edited later.

Many of the Stories in the Quran such as the stories of Abraham and the Idols, the sons of Adam, the Qur'anic account of the Golden Calf, were written in the Talmud! Why all these stories in the Quran suddenly appeared in the Talmud in the 4th and 5th Century CE? The answer is that it was the Jews who plagiarized what is from the Quran!

What about Dead Sea Scrolls ~350 BCE what did the Jews plagiarize from?

With all these evidence, proofs that the Quran was written even much earlier than what you have put up. These ancient Quran with its original language and translated versions were destroyed by the Umayyad Khilafa during the Arabization of the Middle East. What we have now is the Jazm script translated version!

What exactly are you saying, this not Qur'an?

http//oi62.tinypic.com/oj4egx.jpg

Peace

Hizbullah

Peace Hizbullah,
4144 and in case made we it Qur?an of foreign of (language) would say they of why not explained verses its foreign (language) and an Arab?
Peace

Peace Noon,

4144 and in case made we it Qur?an OUTLANDISH(language) would say they of why not explained verses it. OUTLANDISH (language) and ELOQUENCE , Say, "It is, for those who believe, a guidance and cure." And those who do not believe - in their ears is deafness, and it is upon them blindness. Those are being called from a distant
place.

So whether the Quranic verses are outlandish or eloquence, it is for us to insert our believes for our own guidance and cure.

Albanians too say their language is so old that Adam spoke it!
Thus with that same "proof" we are all descend from whoever.

I explained what the Quran says

11 sons of Ismael or 11 Yusuf's brothers?

124 when said Joseph to father his O father that I I saw one ten (eleven) planets and the sun and the moon saw them to me sjidna 125 said O son mine not thou mention vision your on/about brothers your so plan they of to you plot of surely the devil to the humankind enemy clear

12100 and raised parents dual his on the throne and fell they of to him sujjadan and said O father this one elucidation vision mine from before hence made it lord mine truthful and surely most best with me when delivered me from the prison and came with you from the bedouin life from after that caused discord the devil between me and between brothers mine surely lord mine gentle to what wills surely he he the knower the wise

3144 and not Muhammad except messenger hence passed from before him the messengers

1587 and indeed we have given you seven of from al-mathan/the reiterated and the Qur?an the great

What do all above have to do with topic of oldest dated Qu'ran?
Please post evidence Qur'an any other language besides Arabic?

It does to a certain extent. Did you read my post? Quranic evidences are good enough. I believe you have read thru my thread on the Quran was sent down in the 4th Century.

What about Dead Sea Scrolls ~350 BCE what did the Jews plagiarize from?

What exactly are you saying, this not Qur'an?

LOL, you believe in the DSS craps? Let me show you what the Jews plagiarize-

Life of Adam and Eve according to Jewish pseudepigraphical group of writings, written in 3rd to the 5th century!
Adam and the Angels according to The Legends of the Jews written in the 1900s
Killing all Mankind according to the Mishnah Sanhedrin written in the 4th Century CE!
The raven and the burial of Abel according to The Ten Generations - The Punishment of Cain, The Legend of the Jews
Abraham ? idol wrecker according to the Midrash Bereishit 3813, written in the 4th Century CE
Moses' mother nurse him according to the Talmud written in the 4th Century
Pharaoh's magicians according to Ambrosiaster. The commentary itself was written during the papacy of Pope Damasus I, that is, between 366 and 384!
Korah's keys according to the Talmud written in the 4th Century
The Cave - the story of men protected by sleeping in a cave according to the Christian version from the Syrian bishop Jacob of Sarug (c. 450?521), in the 6th Century CE!
Mary and Zechariah according to the oldest manuscript of the Gospel of James is the 4th century Papyrus Bodmer V!
a. God cares for Mary
b. Casting lots to care for Mary
Mary and the miracle of the Palm Tree according to the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew is believed to date back to the 6th century!
Injilu 't Tufuliyyah also known as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, was ALLEGED written in the middle of the 2nd century. However, it is UNKNOWN whether the original language of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas was Greek or Syriac. The few surviving Greek manuscripts provide NO CLUES themselves, since none of them date before the 13th century, while the earliest authorities, according to the editor and translator Montague Rhodes James, are a much abbreviated 6th century Syriac version, and a Latin palimpsest of the 5th or 6th century, which has NEVER been fully translated and can be found in Vienna.

Since Christianity was founded in the 4th Century by the Greco-Romans and the NT written in Greek, there is no doubt that the Gosple was written in Greek in the 5th or 6th Century as according to Montague Rhodes James. The stories plagiarized were

a. Jesus creates birds
b. Jesus speaks in the cradle

The Quran says in 0691

And they did not appraise ALLAH with true appraisal when they said, "ALLAH did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the BOOK that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You make it into PARCHMENTS, SCATTER IT and CONCEALING MUCH. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah ." Then leave them in their discourse, amusing themselves.

The Quran confirms what the disbelievers did to the Book of Musa, that is, they make it into parchments, scatter it and conceal much of the information. But when the Quran was sent down revealing to them of what they concealed, they plagiarized what is from the Quran and than accused the Quran of plagiarized. Can you see the conspiracy?

Off Course those are the Quranic verse written sometime in the 6th Century in the Kufic Script or Hijazi Script. These were converted from the JAZM SCRIPT WHICH IN TURN FROM THE MUSNAD SCRIPT. The Musnad Script was the first original translated version from the Original Quran written in a more prestigious, eloquence script. The Quran says in 4458...

And indeed, We have eased the Qur'an in YOUR TONGUE so that they may take heed.

Since the Prophet was not an Arab, the Quran was sent down to him in his TONGUE! Islam is not "Arab Religion". The Prophet was sent to convey the message to ALL NATION IN THIS WORLD!

It is up to an individual whether he / she wants to accept or not. Like someone from this forum wrote....

"no two Qur'anists can ever agree on a single translation or interpretation of verses in the Qur'an"

Peace

Hizbullah

Source

https//parseundparse.wordpress.com/2012/04/13/sibbuye-der-iraner-der-die-arabische-grammatik-schrieb/

Summary and translation

Sibbuye is died in the first week of year 793. He was a prominent Iranian linguist and was the first person who wrote the Arabic grammar.
Sibbuye is also a highly respected person of the Persian literature. He was born in the city called Beyza, province Fars. The year of his birth is not known, it is assumed 760 CE.

On the historical point of view he is an important person because he was the first who wrote grammar for Arabic language and he also precise defined phonetics and voices of this language.
The vocals O,A,E and "nunation"= tanwin are his inventions. As a result he became the name Sibbuye Nahvi what means Sibbuye, the grammarian.
Without his efforts, which were a masterpiece in that time, the Arabic language would not be developed as it is, and the consolidation of the Arabic language would not have been possible. Thus, it was an Iranian who wrote the grammar for the Arabs.

Salam Birdie,

Great link. Thank you and ALLAH bless you.

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

Peace Hizbullah,

4144 and in case made we it Qur?an OUTLANDISH(language) would say they of why not explained verses it. OUTLANDISH (language) and ELOQUENCE ,

Perhaps open separate thread apply ?outlandish? and ?eloquence? throughout for consistency.

26198 and in case we revealed it on any/some the foreigners

I explained what the Quran says

No you made this claim

Quote from Hizbullah on February 04, 2015, 012554 AM
The Arabs are descended from the Prophet Ismael. In fact, all of us in this world at present descend from the 11 sons of Ismael.

Who exactly are Arabs which now you translate as ?eloquence??

It does to a certain extent. Did you read my post? Quranic evidences are good enough. I believe you have read thru my thread on the Quran was sent down in the 4th Century.

Yes read your post and not sure where you were going with we are all decedent from 11 sons of Ismael stuff usually by those insecure about their heritage etc., which reminds me of the father character in ?My Big Fat Greek Wedding? laugh

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL9whwwTK6I

LOL, you believe in the DSS craps? Let me show you what the Jews plagiarize-

That is irrelevant, again you claimed this ?

Quote from Hizbullah on February 04, 2015, 012554 AM
Why all these stories in the Quran suddenly appeared in the Talmud in the 4th and 5th Century CE? The answer is that it was the Jews who plagiarized what is from the Quran!

Dead Sea Scrolls with similar stories ~ 350 BCE easily refutes your claim
http//www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

As do writings of Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (37 CE - circa 100 CE)
http//www.gutenberg.org/files/2848/2848-h/2848-h.htm

Since the Prophet was not an Arab, the Quran was sent down to him in his TONGUE!

144 and not sent we from messenger except in tongue/speech folk his to clarify for them so lets stray the god whom wills and guides whom wills and he the mighty the wise

Again show proof which tongue was that historically if not Arabic ? Albanian, Greek, or Zulu perhaps?

Hizbullah

Salam Bro Noon,

Before I go further, please see http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604929.0

Please read what Noshirk and Pazuzu wrote and what I quote from Noshirk

From 610 to 630, we are told that all what Muslims managed to do is to conquer Mecca. However, we are told that within only two years, from 630 to 632, very ancient cultures of Yemen and Oman became easily Muslims by simple expedition were Muhammad was not even present. From 630 to 632, it seems also that governing Meccans , full of old enemies of islam, seems to have been less difficult that governing own converted people of Medina.

The amazing fact is that we have no trace of a city converted on the hands of the prophet. Muhammad failed to convert Taief and even Medina was converted by a simple missionary.

We are also told that freshly converted Omanis were so well converted that they have participated in the ridda wars during 632 to 634 to fight whose that wanted to abandon islam after death of prophet.

My question is how come for 20 years the Prophet spread Islam ONLY in Mecca and Medina? It seems to be so difficult, but managed to convert the Yemenis and Omanis in 2 years. Bear in mind the Yemenis and Omanis according to "the so called history" were hardcore Jews!

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

My question is how come for 20 years the Prophet spread Islam ONLY in Mecca and Medina? It seems to be so difficult, but managed to convert the Yemenis and Omanis in 2 years. Bear in mind the Yemenis and Omanis according to "the so called history" were hardcore Jews!

Peace Hizbullah,

What has to do with Qu'ran manuscript?

Carbon-14 dating with 95% probably originated between 649-675 CE
PERF 558 643 CE tax receipt shows Islam in Eqypt few years before

Typically empires spread rapidly if they are united in ideology, have good organizational and educational system, and are inclusive e.g. Alexander army was not all Macedonians included Persians, Thracians, Illyrians, and numerous others who in less than 10 years controlled most of world known to them no matter how zealot, hardcore/hardheaded the people were including the Jews in Jerusalem.

http//iranpoliticsclub.net/maps/images/052%20Alexander%20Conquest%20of%20Persian%20Empire%20Map.jpg

Man_of_Faith

There are so many lies in official history that people must keep in mind.

Islam is actually something that Persian clerics "helped" to shape and it is no secret that the Persians had much influence in the region. Islam is simply traditions that were already in effect prior to the advent of Quran, including the Pagan-style prostration ritual which is an old custom of showing deep respect to a superior and not only a deity.

Plain Paganism was widespread, but there was also many people who had faith in the Abrahamic faith which sectarian distortion is no better than Paganism but more civilized and the multiple idols are replaced by one central one.

Salaam

Lena

@Hizbullah what do you mean " the prophet was not an Arab"? Please explain. My understanding from reading a variety of historical sources on the origins of the Arabs, is that the true Arabs (and Jews) were black or dark skinned (Ethiopian- like in appearance) and spread from Yemen, in South Arabia, up to the Hijaz and northern Arabia. Prophet Muhammed's lineage links back to these true Arabs, from the Adnan tribe in Yemen. Also, that the 'white' Arabs are descendants of foreigners who arrived later in the Arabian peninsula. Some came through intermarriage with conquered peoples, some came as slaves, some as concubines and some as refugees fleeing wars or being expelled from lands in the Balkans, Babylonia etc.

Hizbullah

@Hizbullah what do you mean " the prophet was not an Arab"? Please explain. My understanding from reading a variety of historical sources on the origins of the Arabs, is that the true Arabs (and Jews) were black or dark skinned (Ethiopian- like in appearance) and spread from Yemen, in South Arabia, up to the Hijaz and northern Arabia. Prophet Muhammed's lineage links back to these true Arabs, from the Adnan tribe in Yemen. Also, that the 'white' Arabs are descendants of foreigners who arrived later in the Arabian peninsula. Some came through intermarriage with conquered peoples, some came as slaves, some as concubines and some as refugees fleeing wars or being expelled from lands in the Balkans, Babylonia etc.

Salam,

What you wrote are those from the hadist. Please read the verses below.

Why was the Quran written in South Arabian Script when the Prophet was not an Arab?

AQ1206
And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of narratives and complete His favour upon you and upon the family of Jacob, as He completed it upon your fathers before, Abraham and Isaac. Indeed, your Lord is Knowing and Wise.

AQ2927
And We gave to Him Ishaq and Yaqub and placed in his descendants Prophethood and the Book. And We gave him his reward in this world, and indeed, he is in the hereafter among the righteous.

The above verses proofs that prophethood from the family of Abraham was granted to the descendents of Prophet Ishaq. The Last Prophet was a direct descendent of Prophet Ishaq and not Ismael as the Traditional Islamic sources implies! The Arabs are descended from the Prophet Ismael. In fact, all of us in this world at present descend from the 11 sons of Ismael.

Shogunsami

Is there any proof that Arabs are descendants of Ishmael? What happened to the descendants of ishaq? According to pazuzus research (which I believe is accurate ) all prophets mentioned in quran are from the same geographical location that is south Arabia. Doesn't it make Mohammad also an Arab?

Hizbullah

Perhaps open separate thread apply ?outlandish? and ?eloquence? throughout for consistency.
26198 and in case we revealed it on any/some the foreigners

Peace Noon, no offence bro, please take it as a friendly argument......

No need, I tell you now. The Quranic rendering of the word 3rabiya (derived from i3rab), means (those who speak clearly) as contrast with a3jamiya (those who speak indistinctly - outlandish).

No you made this claim

Quote from Hizbullah on February 04, 2015, 012554 AM
The Arabs are descended from the Prophet Ismael. In fact, all of us in this world at present descend from the 11 sons of Ismael.

Who exactly are Arabs which now you translate as ?eloquence??

See the explanation above and insha ALLAH I will open a new thread on the "11 sons of Ismael".

Yes read your post and not sure where you were going with we are all decedent from 11 sons of Ismael stuff usually by those insecure about their heritage etc., which reminds me of the father character in ?My Big Fat Greek Wedding? laugh

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL9whwwTK6I

I believe you are the one who is insecure. Why is it? Are you afraid of the truth. Let me quote Bro Pazuzu, " The truth hurts eh, the truth is stranger than fiction and the rabbits hole gets deeper" ;D

That is irrelevant, again you claimed this ?

Quote from Hizbullah on February 04, 2015, 012554 AM
Why all these stories in the Quran suddenly appeared in the Talmud in the 4th and 5th Century CE? The answer is that it was the Jews who plagiarized what is from the Quran!

Dead Sea Scrolls with similar stories ~ 350 BCE easily refutes your claim
http//www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

As do writings of Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (37 CE - circa 100 CE)
http//www.gutenberg.org/files/2848/2848-h/2848-h.htm

It is relevent. I have shown you Quranic proof, yet you take as of no importance and believe in all those jewish lies? elektro

Peace

Hizbullah

Peace Hizbullah,

What has to do with Qu'ran manuscript?

Carbon-14 dating with 95% probably originated between 649-675 CE
PERF 558 643 CE tax receipt shows Islam in Eqypt few years before

It does. I am not denying C14 technology. What you have shown proofs that the Quranic script was written in the 7th Century CE. What makes you confirmed that those were the oldest Quranic manuscript, when Quranic and histrorical evidence proofs that the Quran / Islam is much older than 1400 years!

Typically empires spread rapidly if they are united in ideology, have good organizational and educational system, and are inclusive e.g. Alexander army was not all Macedonians included Persians, Thracians, Illyrians, and numerous others who in less than 10 years controlled most of world known to them no matter how zealot, hardcore/hardheaded the people were including the Jews in Jerusalem.

http//iranpoliticsclub.net/maps/images/052%20Alexander%20Conquest%20of%20Persian%20Empire%20Map.jpg

Exactly! That was what the Prophet did! He did not just traveled from Mecca to Medina and vice versa for 20 years and than all of a sudden the whole of Arabia converted to Islam within a short span!

Further, historical evidence proofs that Najran was the first and only "Christian" important oasis and caravan city, and was converted in the 4th century CE. The Namarah Inscription is a "GREAT PROOF". the city was taken over by the Romans with the help of the so called Northern "Arab" Foederati. This Northern "Arab" Foederati were independent states, yet under a general liability to furnish a contingent to the Roman army.

Imagine, if Christianity were to flourished in Arabia from the 4th Century up to the 7th Century, for 300 years, there will be an unimaginable evidence left to proof of its existence in the whole of Arabia. Archaeological evidence shows only Najran was "Christianize". There were substantial proofs that shows the Arab converted to Judaism in the 4th Century. Why were they converting to Judaism when they were already Jews. South Arabia was a center of Judaism since after the time of the Prophet Zakaria a thousand years up till the 4th Century.

The conversion of the South Arabians were not to Judaism but to the Islam. South Arabia was the Prophet last destination and it is plausible that South Arabia was where his final rest place! The original Quran with an eloquent tongue and translated to the Musnad tongue were there. I believe those Qurans were all destroyed by the Ummayyad Khilafa!

Peace

Hizbullah

Is there any proof that Arabs are descendants of Ishmael? What happened to the descendants of ishaq? According to pazuzus research (which I believe is accurate ) all prophets mentioned in quran are from the same geographical location that is south Arabia. Doesn't it make Mohammad also an Arab?

If ALLAH permits me, I will open a new thread on this subject.

Peace

Man_of_Faith

I think Arab is an elusive term. There is more behind it than an ethnicity.

I have had certain suspicions that Arab originally does not mean what is thought and it is conspicuously similar to Rabb. That or the Quranic Arab is a term of confusion with something else.

What I think is that the word Arab got synonymous with a people once upon a time.

The majority of the prophets were clearly considered Hebrews. And their attached condition to God is what they regarded as Jew (yahood) and Jew is no ethnicity but a member of those who are in the proper faith since near God. It has relationship with the term (huda) which means one is unto something.

The Arab word needs more research before I can say more.

Hebrews were spread all over the Middle-East and they did not have a fixed locale. This language was used even officially within the Persian empire (with the variation Aramaic).

Arabic is too thought through to be the invention of a backwards community and is actually very exact and logical (once you know its deeper secrets). It is not just erupted from a primitive nomadic people. There is much more to it. Virtually all Arabic letters exist in Hebrew except that they use different symbols and use them differently to form words.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

It is relevent. I have shown you Quranic proof, yet you take as of no importance and believe in all those jewish lies? elektro

Peace Hizbullah -- you've shown nothing only contradicted yourself.

Again, irrelevant if they are lies or not it refutes your claim since you wrote this

Quote from Hizbullah on February 04, 2015, 012554 AM
Why all these stories in the Quran suddenly appeared in the Talmud in the 4th and 5th Century CE? The answer is that it was the Jews who plagiarized what is from the Quran!

Again, similar stories appear 700 & 300 years earlier refutes your plagiarism claim.

It does. I am not denying C14 technology. What you have shown proofs that the Quranic script was written in the 7th Century CE. What makes you confirmed that those were the oldest Quranic manuscript, when Quranic and histrorical evidence proofs that the Quran / Islam is much older than 1400 years!

Again, you've shown nothing! If you have historical evidence please post one verse that's earlier?

"The Inscription of Abraha" (battle memorial, southern Saudi Arabia)
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm

Transcription
B'khail / ar-rahman / wmaseeha /
malikan / Abraha / Zaybm / malik /
sab'a / w zarydan / w hadarmaut

Translation
With help The Almighty and messiah, king Abraha Zeebman (king's title), the king of Saba'a, Zuridan and Hadrmaut.

(ii)
w ya m n t / w r a a'in r b ha m r / ta w d m /
w t ha m t / s ta r w / z n / s ta r n / k gh z ya w
w yement / wa r'a rab hamw / Twadam / w thamat / satro / zn / satran / K'ghazow
and Yemen and the tribes (on) the mountains and the coast wrote these lines on his battle

http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/figs-stones/large/color_lg_jpeg/fig04_c_lg.jpg

Abraha (deceased ~ 553 CE) Aksumite Christian King South Arabia Kingdom of Aksum and Saba/Yemen.

http//image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/k/ka/kaleb.jpg

Hizbullah

Peace Hizbullah -- you've shown nothing only contradicted yourself.

Again, irrelevant if they are lies or not it refutes your claim since you wrote this

Quote from Hizbullah on February 04, 2015, 012554 AM
Why all these stories in the Quran suddenly appeared in the Talmud in the 4th and 5th Century CE? The answer is that it was the Jews who plagiarized what is from the Quran!

Again, similar stories appear 700 & 300 years earlier refutes your plagiarism claim.

Peace Noon,

Did I? My question is very straight forward. I am not asking you about what was written 700 years with regards to the 4th Century! The stories of the Quran that was rewritten in the Talmud in the 4th Century should be in the former Book of ALLAH, ie, in the Bible and NOT IN THE TALMUD which was written in the 4th Century! Why?

Quranic Evidence

AQ;0515 - O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you CONCEAL OF THE BOOK AND OBLITERATE MUCH. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.