Fitna/Test/Trial (54:27, 74:31, 17:60..) ?

truth

Peace all,

The count (19) is said to be a sign in 7435, a great one even.

Only conjecture and misleading people from the principal message about the warning to mankind

It is one of the great ones.
A warning to mankind.

Rubbish. Marie you are beginning to show signs of blindness to plain verses now. Is it a conjecture that 7431 has a final sentence that addresses 'lil bashari'?

7431 ....wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari

and

7435 Natheeran lilbashari

The warning and reminder are for mankind thus there is grammatical and contextual evidence here that links these two verses.

Your post on the other hand IS misleading people reading this to a very biased view of these verses based on your own personal rejection of the 19 sign.

Peace.

marie

Peace all,

The count (19) is said to be a sign in 7435, a great one even.

Only conjecture and misleading people from the principal message about the warning to mankind

It is one of the great ones.
A warning to mankind.

Rubbish. Marie you are beginning to show signs of blindness to plain verses now. Is it a conjecture that 7431 has a final sentence that addresses 'lil bashari'?

7431 ....wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari

and

7435 Natheeran lilbashari

Sorry, you misunderstood what I mean by conjecture, it is about what you have said in your last post

The count (19) is said to be a sign in 7435, a great one even.

You understanding is absed on conjecture because The word ayat/sign doesn't exist in 7435. You said 7435 speaks about the count 19 is also guessing work.

In the light of the context 7431 and 7435 are about saqar/the Fire.

I will explain my reasonnig soon GW

Peace

marie

Peace all,

After reading the chapter 74, I read 7431 in a new way, it is better to read this verse in arabic to understand well what I mean by this new reading.

It is also important to translate word for word the verse 7431 in order to see the link between the sentences of the arabic text. The PM translation is a bit approximate and the link between the sentences is fuzzy.
All new translation are welcome

PM
7431. And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say ?What did God mean with an example such as this?? It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him. And it is but a reminder for mankind.

Wama jaAAalna as-habaalnnari illa mala-ikatan wamajaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheenakafaroo liyastayqina allatheena ootoo alkitaba wayazdada allatheena amanoo eemanan wala yartaba allatheena ootoo alkitaba waalmu/minoona waliyaqoola allatheena feequloobihim maradun wa alkafiroona mathaarada Allahu bihatha mathalan kathalikayudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashaowama yaAAlamu junooda rabbika illa huwa wamahiya illa thikra lilbashari

We can distinguish three paragraphs

And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt,

Wama jaAAalna as-haba alnnari illa mala-ikatan liyastayqina allatheena ootoo alkitaba wayazdada allatheena amanoo eemanan wala yartaba allatheena ootoo alkitaba waalmu/minoona

and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??

wamajaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheena kafaroowaliyaqoola allatheena feequloobihim maradun wa alkafiroona mathaarada Allahu bihatha mathalan

It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him. And it is but a reminder for mankind.

kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashaowama yaAAlamu junooda rabbika illa huwa wamahiya illa thikra lilbashari

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

I doubt that the true TRIAL(fitna) would wait so long to be revealed, the "she camel" was right there to be the TRIAL, it did not come to the people 1400 years later when they were in the graves.

truth

Peace,

Peace be upon you all,

I doubt that the true TRIAL(fitna) would wait so long to be revealed, the "she camel" was right there to be the TRIAL, it did not come to the people 1400 years later when they were in the graves.

Kyle this is interesting coming from you. The camel was a part of creation at some stage so the camel (as an animal) actually was there thousands if not many many thousands of years before.

Unless you are suggesting like traditionalists do that this individual camel was sent down from the sky in an instant?

Regards.

truth

Peace,

Peace all,

After reading the chapter 74, I read 7431 in a new way, it is better to read this verse in arabic to understand well what I mean by this new reading.

So this is a new reading if not a definitive one.

It is also important to translate word for word the verse 7431 in order to see the link between the sentences of the arabic text. The PM translation is a bit approximate and the link between the sentences is fuzzy.
All new translation are welcome )

Marie I'm going to suggest you read Edip's article on the meanings of the words in this surah.

http//19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0

There he discusses many of the misconceptions with this block of verses. It is pointless for me to repeat them here unnecessarily.

We can distinguish three paragraphs

And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt,

How do the guardians of the Fire do these things according to your new reading?

How do they stop your doubt?

and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??

So the test is for rejecters. Have you rejected the count?

Is this not speaking to you then?

The 9128-129 issue was much later than the understanding of the basic 19 sign. It has nothing to do with this. So please do not throw in that red herring.

Just answer whether you have rejected the sign of the count (19) or not. Then you will know who the verse addresses.

Peace.

marie

Peace all,

After reading the chapter 74, I read 7431 in a new way, it is better to read this verse in arabic to understand well what I mean by this new reading.

So this is a new reading if not a definitive one.

According to my understanding, the first par of the verse "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" should grant certainty to those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt

How do they stop your doubt?

This is about the great punishement saqar/the fire for those who were not of the Musalleen (7443), the day when the Trumpet will sound. (748 )
749 That will be that Day ? A Day of hardship.
7410. Upon the rejecters it will not be easy.

The warning is announced since the beginning of the chapter (742), from what ?

I have warned you of a Fire that blazes.
None shall reach it but the wicked.
16.15. The one who denies and turns away.
Then he turned away and was arrogant.
So he said ?This is nothing but the magic of old.?
?This is nothing but the words of a human.?
I will cast him in the Scorching heat.
And do you know what is Scorching heat?
It does not spare nor leave anything.
A scorcher of the face.
This root (B, sh, R) which is read as "bashar/mankind" could be read as "bishr" which means the face.
bashara(t) means the skin of the human
The Hour is their appointed time, and the Hour is far worse and more painful.
The criminals are in error and will burn.
The Day when they will be dragged upon their faces into the Fire ?Taste the agony of the scorching heat!?

The second part of the verse "and We did not make their number except as a test" for those who have rejected, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??

There is several types of rejection
1- to rejet the message or a part of the message
2. to reject the great warning through the chapter 74 which is SAQAR/the Fire, for those who turned away and were arrogant, for the wicked, for those who were not of the 'musalleen'
3. To turn away from the real meaning of this great warning which is SAQAR/the FIRE

.....

Marie I'm going to suggest you read Edip's article on the meanings of the words in this surah.

http//19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0

Thanks for the link, I will read it GW.

Peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Truth,

idolfree1 wrote
Peace be upon you all,

I doubt that the true TRIAL(fitna) would wait so long to be revealed, the "she camel" was right there to be the TRIAL, it did not come to the people 1400 years later when they were in the graves.

Kyle this is interesting coming from you. The camel was a part of creation at some stage so the camel (as an animal) actually was there thousands if not many many thousands of years before.

Unless you are suggesting like traditionalists do that this individual camel was sent down from the sky in an instant?

I have no clue what you are talking about, I think you misunderstood me.

What I was mentioning is that this 19 fitna is being compared to the fitna of the she camel. This reading claims to be 1400 years old, was it not a TRIAL to the people from its writing up until Rashad Khalifa?

How did the people before Rashad understand this FITNA?

I do not follow that it was a verse that was waiting to come true 1400 years later.

beatnik

Peace all,

I might be going slightly off topic now, but I wanted to talk a bit about something on my mind yesterday while reading chapter 11.

About the camel I was thinking yesterday how when a messenger warns the town they are from about their sins, each example represents a major sin. So we have mass idolatory behaviour in 'Aad, mass rampant sexual deviancy in the town of Lot, mass economic corruption in Median, and I think the story of Salih is about respect for animals. We're not scolded for eating or killing animals (or in this case camels), but its the manner in which we do it that is frowned on in Islam. And the way the camel died in this particular example was very insulting, it was without purpose and it was not done in God's name. Salih was trying to teach people respect for other living beings, and they mocked him and the philosophy of Islam in their slaying of it, so they had to pay. They may have been a city/civilisation that treated animals like this all the time, which is why Salih chose the camel as a teaching method in particular.

In each of the examples in the Quran, a messenger teaches his town of their sins, and that town is eventually wiped away, in each example is a town commiting a major sin en masse, that leads a civilisation to its ruin, because they're taking part in a flawed system that is degrading to people and the land. Each town is wiped away by God because 'He' gave them a chance, but they continued doing what they were doing and so they were destroyed. Seems harsh, but each civilisation gets numerous warnings, and if they're not going to learn and grow then they have to be wiped away for other people to have a go. True believers are always saved though, whether in life or death, its all about the final judgement, thats what matters most. A good person's life may be cut short, but that is just the way it happens sometimes, whats important is that everything they've done in their life will be accounted for on judgement day, and im sure paradise is a good compensation for a short stay on planet earth.

But I guess I've gone off topic, sorry! I just wanted to chime in about the camel, and what its potential purpose was to be included in the Quran.

Layth

Peace Marie,

In my opinion the verse is very clear - the number 19 is a 'fitna' for the people who reject/kafaroo...

I would be more intersted to know 'why' it will be their fitna?

You seem to think 9128-129 is the answer.

I am not so sure it is (though there is a relation in a way).

marie

Peace Marie,

In my opinion the verse is very clear - the number 19 is a 'fitna' for the people who reject/kafaroo...

I would be more intersted to know 'why' it will be their fitna?

You seem to think 9128-129 is the answer.

I am not so sure it is (though there is a relation in a way).

Peace Layth,

The rejection of 9128-129 is one of several deviations based on the code 19, for example

Those who claim they are messengers because the numerical value of their name ....is X * 19

-5 prayers based on the code 19

predict the future like the false predictions claimed by Rashad Khalifa when he was alive..
Those who claim that there are other number (7, 14..etc) inside the reading and so on...
The code 19 is based on the CONJECTURE derived from the interpretation of the reading and leads to the CONJECTURES.

truth

I think the story of Salih is about respect for animals. We're not scolded for eating or killing animals (or in this case camels), but its the manner in which we do it that is frowned on in Islam. And the way the camel died in this particular example was very insulting, it was without purpose and it was not done in God's name. Salih was trying to teach people respect for other living beings

Peace Beatnik,

The story of Salih is not about animal right exclusively. It's about reasonable use of environmental resources. The water from which the camel was drinking must have been important for irrigation, and the grass or crops it was feeding from were sources of profit for the community. Or the grass reserved for the animals could have been utilised for cash crops for example.

The unbelievers begrudged even the small amount the camel needed because of their desire to exploit the natural environmental resources themselves.

So the verses are about environmentalism and equitable use of our resources; as well as recognising the right of animals to use those resources.

So it has many themes the major one of which is greed of the unbelievers.

Peace.

beatnik

Peace Beatnik,

The story of Salih is not about animal right exclusively. It's about reasonable use of environmental resources..

Peace truth,

I agree with you, each example has many lessons naturally, usually about peaceful co-existence. I usually lump animals/environment into the same category, both are inspired by God and do their thing without question, humans, having free wil,l are a more loose lot, as we well know.

sabo

Peace all,

We can also view the comparison between the she-camel and the "code 19" differently

The majority rejected both signs and the minority accepted.

Best regards,
sabo

marie

Salam sabo, all,

Peace all,

We can also view the comparison between the she-camel and the "code 19" differently

The majority rejected both signs and the minority accepted.

Best regards,
sabo

the count of 19 and the code 19 are two distincts things IMO

The count of 19 is only a fitna for those who reject..
The code 19 is a man made sign and an illustration of the test of the count 19.
The she-camel is both a visible ayat/sign for the believers and fitna for those who reject the divine message and challenge His commands.

sabo

Salam Marie ,

I agree that The count of 19 is only a fitna for those who reject..
Those who reject are the majority who can not see signs and naturally they won't call it a sign. Its a natural process and consistent with the system of God.

Best regards,
sabo

Zlatan

Peace Marie! Pretty good job! I congratulate you...

nice aproach...

It is very rare to see that one is using other verses of the book(where similar theme is more decisively or detaily explained) to throw more light on 7431....people ussualy read the passage 7430-35 or 7431 in isolation and then they subjectively interpret it as Code 19 or numerico-mathematical Gods sign embeded into the book....this based on writings of Rashad Khalifa and his folowers.......True, the code believers sometimes use other verses to explain 7431 but these verses that they use are equaly if not more ambiguous from 7431 in the respect of the theme discussed...what they actually use is their man-made, subjective and personal intepretation of these verses and then they, equaly subjective, force its interpreation upon 7431 ... they have stolen The Gods exclusive right to interpret His words...they have shut up The Almighty!!!...and you didnt... may He honor you with even more of His light....

....

According to my understanding, the first par of the verse "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" should grant certainty to those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt

why restrict this only to the first part of the verse...why do separate it from what is previously stated(that is unlike from what you have stated in the other post in this thread?)

the whole passage and chapter is connected ....waw/and at the begining of 7431 may testify to this...it may be a sign that what is previously stated is a part of the example which unbelievers and sick hearts do not understand or ridicule....

The whole chapter is a compact whole...

The essence and the prevailing focus of the story is the Gods message in general with hell as a prototype and cornerstone of it- as a punishement promised for disbelief and not upholding of the Gods message....

His promised punishement and the Gods message in general is what is convincing and faith increasing....as well as unbelievers` confusion...

The functions in 7431 imo are NOT caused solely or (do not rely or build solely upon) their number being set as but a fitnah for those who have rejected .....

Word "li" that means "to/in order/that", after the word fitnah, may rely or build upon all that is previously stated(or some pivotal point in it) in the chapter and this is linguistically valid( see for example how 5141 and 43 rely or build upon 5137)....This is even more true or sensible when one knows importance of the context and holistic approach in regards of the appropriate studying of the God`s book.... paying attention to context and holistic approach can never be overemphasised in underestanding the book of The God

best wishes,

Zlatan

Zlatan

Peace

here are some other translations of the word fitnah from the dictionaries i have acces to

excuse

confusion

torment

torture

punishement

fascination

intrigue

Also, here are few different readings and /or meanings of the word "`&iddat(h)" ...

it may be read as "&idat(h)"(with one d) -infinitive or verbal noun from the root w- &(ayn) -d and it means promising and promise or threat and threating(note that this is different root from &-d-d but they share the same basic unwovelised form...

It can be read as uddah the same root as &-d-d but different word and it can mean both equipement and/or readiness...possible meaning -fire or saqar previously mentioned is an equipement of wardens of the fire.... or readiness of fire wardens is allusion to them being described as stern and severe and strictly performing the tormenting assigned by The God as described in 666

Word &iddat -number, count or counting also can mean numerous many, much, several according to Hans Wehr dictionary... This book says that word &iddat can be used attributively and cites example of rijal &iddah translating it as numerous men, if i recall well....this may totally change the meaning of iddata/uhum(i am not yet enough familiar with the grammar to claim this is a meaning that is gramatically valid in the construction that is used in the verse )...use of 19 may be idiomatical(similar to idiomatical use of No 7) to denote numerousness or big number of malaikahs over the fire as punishement or torment (all valid meanings of fitnah) for those who have rejected....

Besides , Marie, ayman , anyone other knowlegeable in arabic....what do you think can the verse be translated as "we havent assigned a number of them(and not their number) except as fitnah punishement for those who have rejected(in hell)"?

best wishes, Zlatan

marie

Peace Zlatan, all,

The functions in 7431 imo are NOT caused solely or (do not rely or build solely upon) their number being set as but a fitnah for those who have rejected .....

You are right, both "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" and "and "We have made their AAiddat to be a fitna" are for those who have rejected...

here are some other translations of the word fitnah from the dictionaries i have acces to
excuse
confusion
torment
torture
punishement
fascination
intrigue

Punishement make more sence in the light of the context of the chapter 74, 5113-14 illustrate well this meaning

The Day they ordeal/will be punished upon the Fire.
Yawma hum AAala alnnari yuftanoona
?Taste this ordeal of yours/your punishement; this is what you asked to be hastened.?
Thooqoo fitnatakum hatha allatheekuntum bihi tastaAAjiloona

It can be read as uddah the same root as &-d-d but different word and it can mean both equipement and/or readiness

Good point!

946, 224 and 3131 illustrate this meaning

And if they had gone with you then they would have made necessary preparation for it, but God disliked them coming forth, so He made them lag behind, and they were told ?Stay with those who have stayed.?
Walaw aradoo alkhurooja laaAAaddoo lahu AAuddatan walakin kariha Allahu inbiAAathahumfathabbatahum waqeela oqAAudoo maAAa alqaAAideena
And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, it has been prepared for the rejecters.
Fa-in lam tafAAaloo walan tafAAaloo faittaqooalnnara allatee waqooduha alnnasu waalhijaratu oAAiddat lilkafireena
And be aware of the Fire that has been prepared for the rejecters
Waittaqoo alnnaraallatee oAAiddat lilkafireena

what do you think can the verse be translated as "we havent assigned a number of them(and not their number) except as fitnah punishement for those who have rejected(in hell)"?

To make is a more fitting translation than to assign or to appoint for "jaAAalna" in 7431, IMO

I translate it as

And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; and We have made their preparation/equipement.. to be a punishement for those who have rejected...

and that makes SENCE for me twisted

Brother Zlatan you did a good job D

Keep good works

Zlatan

Peace Marie!

Peace Zlatan, all,

The functions in 7431 imo are NOT caused solely or (do not rely or build solely upon) their number being set as but a fitnah for those who have rejected .....

You are right, both "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" and "and "We have made their AAiddat to be a fitna" are for those who have rejected...

yes, i agree, but what i was thinking of is that others functions increasing in faith, searching for or attaining conviction etc that comes after li might build not solely upon (or result from) malaikah being wardens of the fire and u/iddatuhum being nothing but a fitnah but rather(or additionaly) upon some pivotal point stated before in the chapter....please allow me to remind you once again to check, if you havent checked it yet, this is very important, how 5141 and 43 rely or build upon the pivotal statement in 5137 and not to sentences or verses that come directly before them...(imo there are plenty of such constructions in the book....)

In the same manner the other part of 7431, starting from li/that/in order to be convinced(or search for conviction) those who are given the book etc... build upon or rely upon some pivotal point stated before..... maybe on the verse that mentions saqar or that describes it as lawwahatun this particularly due to certain meanings of lawwahatun ...it comes from verb laha ..it can mean(among other meanings) to shine, to flash, to glimmer, to sparkle, to shimmer; to appear to (imo it may imply giving signals, threating, speaking to human)......Muhamad Asad translate it as making all truth visible to mortal.....(isnt it then logical that hell making all truth visible is increasing faith or gives conviction or incites to search for it...)

Or it build upon 742 come out and warn-he is to warn us with the ayats/messages of The God then some increase in faith and/or convince and others are being exposed as bad people...

whatever it be the basic and prevailing pattern of the chapter(before, during and after 7430-35 !) imo is ...the great reading/quran is a warning/reminder=> its hell promised to those who reject its precepts and wont to submit to The Almighty is of its main doctrines/messages=>upon knowing about this message sincere people recognise it and fear God and the promised punishement =>they run to uphold the message thus they become convinced or increase in faith....

According to the book there are two or more aspects of the faith or conviction...sometimes it might not be a simple and/or subjective impression or feeling....but is rather an achievement that comes along with obeying...

unbelievers and hypocretes wont submit or doesn not feel/think that the message is from the god or can not understand and/or ridicule how can anyone can be guided with such a naive, barbaric or brutal things as hell torturing or such a trivial thing as 19 malaikahs being upon the hell(they might be stuck upon it and/or are bewildered by the minute details of the great as well as horryfying doctrine/message )... and even this, but not only this, is increasing cause the faithful recognise the pattern of their behaviour as per 226 and 9127

what God want(or could want) with mathal like this is not a question of intelectual inquiry but of being prevented from understanding it or ridiculing....

see also 82 and 20113 and 132 to see how the convinction is attained and faith increased

best wishes, Zlatan