Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam Ted,

Exactly, the "commandments" is guidance with a broad application and not just some dull law.

For example, if the decree to Moses said to not kill anyone, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not even be angry with someone.

Or if the decree says do not commit adultery, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not look upon another man/woman with lust, even if the decree drew the line at adultery.

You see that the list is more than just a sterile law but rules of thumb. Obviously it is understandable if someone wishes to bring a person to justice over a murder, but that is up to the juridical system and if the family of the victim wishes to forgive the culprit (if the justice system allows that). The list itself is containing general guidelines, open to interpretation although obviously they say what they say and you cannot change or omit any one of them or you are one of those 'kafaroon' (fabricators) threatened with Hell in Quran.

The list is all the way helping with what is spiritually beneficial for a person. Jealousy also entered its way into the list and that does not adversely affect anyone but yourself. In fact jealousy can cause a person to break other parameters of it because it builds up negative energy in the victim (oneself/ego) and causes the person to think worldly. If one feels envy then they have missed the point in why they live.

Punishment is up to the community. In the "Western" world it is not illegal to commit adultery and you cannot thus prosecute a person guilty of this sin and emotionally hurting his or her spouse. According to the guidelines it is spiritually detrimental to commit adultery and it weighs heavily on the negative side and the person will get what they deserve whether you punish it or not. And a court can only kill the bodies while the Rabb can kill both body and soul. It does not really affect much in the end whether you punish or not in this world.

Murderers, especially serial-killers, are obviously another case and they have killed another person's body and it goes under "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life", but yet if there can be mercy this is much better than prosecution. You end the life of a person who could perhaps repent and reform with some love if you apply the death penalty.

Ah well. I gave you more information than you bargained form

Salaam

[Man_of_Faith]

Ted,

4142 is quite easy to turn right. It speaks of hypocrites which appear to be well-mannered but just do it to show themselves representational while their inside is actually a mess.

56 speaks of behavior in general. I have a few months old prototype translation somewhere on the forum, but I could probably make a better if I once again sat down and analyzed it now.

The passages are a mess translation-wise as you can see which is true for a grand portion of Quran. I need more time to be able to translate quickly on demand.

, the root refers to what you follow and it reflects on your own ways. You can relate it to one's perception of life. One ought to be mindful of their ways . This is the criteria number one that God gives to Moses.

Obviously a person who pay attention to salat follows God. People with Pagan minds have rendered it a ritual when relating this innocent word with prayer. While prayer is not wrong, salateh is not that.

And prayers do not help the slightest unless one seeks to realize them. Otherwise it is just empty words to God. You do not read Al-Fatiha just as a ritual but it is meant that you should realize what you say.

Salaam

[My_Name_is_Ted]

Salaam Ted,

Exactly, the "commandments" is guidance with a broad application and not just some dull law.

For example, if the decree to Moses said to not kill anyone, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not even be angry with someone.

Or if the decree says do not commit adultery, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not look upon another man/woman with lust, even if the decree drew the line at adultery.

You see that the list is more than just a sterile law but rules of thumb. Obviously it is understandable if someone wishes to bring a person to justice over a murder, but that is up to the juridical system and if the family of the victim wishes to forgive the culprit (if the justice system allows that). The list itself is containing general guidelines, open to interpretation although obviously they say what they say and you cannot change or omit any one of them or you are one of those 'kafaroon' (fabricators) threatened with Hell in Quran.

The list is all the way helping with what is spiritually beneficial for a person. Jealousy also entered its way into the list and that does not adversely affect anyone but yourself. In fact jealousy can cause a person to break other parameters of it because it builds up negative energy in the victim (oneself/ego) and causes the person to think worldly. If one feels envy then they have missed the point in why they live.

Punishment is up to the community. In the "Western" world it is not illegal to commit adultery and you cannot thus prosecute a person guilty of this sin and emotionally hurting his or her spouse. According to the guidelines it is spiritually detrimental to commit adultery and it weighs heavily on the negative side and the person will get what they deserve whether you punish it or not. And a court can only kill the bodies while the Rabb can kill both body and soul. It does not really affect much in the end whether you punish or not in this world.

Murderers, especially serial-killers, are obviously another case and they have killed another person's body and it goes under "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life", but yet if there can be mercy this is much better than prosecution. You end the life of a person who could perhaps repent and reform with some love if you apply the death penalty.

Ah well. I gave you more information than you bargained form

Salaam

Sorry but you are not making much sense.

First you use "commandments" then "rule of thumb", then "decrees", then "list" and then "guidelines". Are all these things referring to the same thing? Seems like you may know what you are talking about but you're not making much sense to me. Maybe you have a lot more background info than I and are maybe assuming that I know it.

[Man_of_Faith]

Ted,

"Commandments" - is what they are traditionally referred to as. I accept this definition although I find it inaccurate.

Rule of thumb - I said because they lead you forward and you should judge each situation you are in by them and they are open to interpretation as long as one does not change their meaning to something else.

Decree - I used as a word with milder tone than law as to say something has been issued with a tone of authority or prescription. It is hard to speak of this without making it into a sterile law.

List - It is a list, right? Traditionally ten.

Guidelines - is the best interpretation I have of the same phenomenon. The "Commandments" are best referred to as guidelines in English. It is as to refer to the list as clear guidance on how to lead one's life.

Salaam

[My_Name_is_Ted]

56 speaks of behavior in general. I have a few months old prototype translation somewhere on the forum, but I could probably make a better if I once again sat down and analyzed it now.

So you have an old prototype translation which you need to sit down and analyze again in order to make it better? Doesn't this just go to show that you're not clear on your own works? That it's even difficult for you to understand your own work such that you need to go back to it.

When I read the Quran now I don't need to go back and think what it's saying. It's clear. It fits in with reality, the concepts of God, the duniya, the hereafter, human behaviour, etc.

If the Quran was such that 90% of the Muslim population has misunderstood it then God hasn't done a great job of making it easy to understand which defeats the purpose of it being a message for mankind.

On Judgement Day those who ignored/disobeyed the Quran would have a valid execuse that they were not guided since the Quran was difficult for them to understand.

However we are not going to have that execuse as God has made the Quran easy to understand. There is enough in it to check all of us. So I would humbly advise you to take the Quran for what it is. The vast majority of the Muslim population do understand the words but just twist it to fit in with their desires.

The fact there are so many different sects, schools of thought, opinions just goes to show why God has had to send guidance so many times.

[My_Name_is_Ted]

Ted,

"Commandments" - is what they are traditionally referred to as. I accept this definition although I find it inaccurate.

Rule of thumb - I said because they lead you forward and you should judge each situation you are in by them and they are open to interpretation as long as one does not change their meaning to something else.

Decree - I used as a word with milder tone than law as to say something has been issued with a tone of authority or prescription. It is hard to speak of this without making it into a sterile law.

List - It is a list, right? Traditionally ten.

Guidelines - is the best interpretation I have of the same phenomenon. The "Commandments" are best referred to as guidelines in English. It is as to refer to the list as clear guidance on how to lead one's life.

Salaam

I would say that you could have just used "The Commandments given to Moses" in your response as it would have easily been understood as the commandments give to Moses. The fact that you find it inaccurate is a personal thing for you. Your understanding of it could either be discussed as a separate topic of you could have written a section on what your interpretation/understanding of them was. However you should still use "Commandments" later on when referring to them instead of other words as it becomes confusing as to what exactly your are referring to.

You said you prefer "Guidelines". So maybe "Guidelines " would have helped to discuss your understanding of it without you worrying what others are thinking of the term.

I would say "Guidelines" is totally inappropriate since the term does not highlight the importance of it or that there are consequences if not followed or that they are very strict. The Commandments given To Moses were very strict and were punishable. Guidelines are not punishable and not strict.

[My_Name_is_Ted]

better word would be polytheists but even then if you and me claim to worship One God with different names like God, Allah, Siva or Bramman etc and fail to understand that both are indeed worshiping the same God, then we can also be called as a polytheist?

Siva and Bramman are not names of God. Ram, Krishna, Jesus, Zeus, Thor are not different names of the same God. Bhagwaan, The Almighty, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc do refer to the same God.

If we fail to understand that we are worshipping the same God then that means that either we don't accept the same attributes of God ie. eternal, almighty, omnipotent, all knowing, etc. or that we're just selfishly envious of the other or some other things.

We wouldn't be classed as polytheists since is we both worship God who has the same attributes but different names.

[My_Name_is_Ted]

Armanaziz,

365 O! Fraternity of the book - why do you debate concerning Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not sent down but from after him? So, why do you not understand?

366 Here you are ? the ones who (even) debated about which you had knowledge; then why do you debate about which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows, while you do not know.

367 Abraham did not happen to be a yahudi (i.e. repenter) or a nasara (i.e. helper), but rather, he happened to be a precise muslim (i.e. submissive) ? and he did not happen to be among the assigners of partners (to Allah).

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Don?t you see that the above verse implies following a specific book / external communication is not necessary for being a muslim like Abraham? If your reply is - Abraham followed his own book which was an earlier version of Torah and the Gospel and Qur?an ? than doesn?t that make the above Quranic claim nonsensical? Pay attention brother ? the quoted verses (365-67) clearly imply that following a specific book or any book is NOT A NECESSARY condition for being a muslim.

In the above I believe you are saying no book was revealed to Abraham. What do you then make of the verse below?

384 Say "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

The verse seems to say that something was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes.

[Man_of_Faith]

Ted,

Amen I tell you. I will continue and show you that salateh does not imply on some ritualistic prayer.

Of course I have to sit down and decipher passages again because my understanding grows and I am able to expose more falsehood. And you shall see I will be able to explain too.

Salat is a man's perception of life, their ways.

Quran and Arabic is surprisingly easy to learn due to certain factors, but that does not help if someone plays with interpretation, is ignorant and desires to fabricate a meaning. You do not know what Quran has been through it seems. People who interpreted it have not been honest at all. They appear to have only guessed when they could not understand the grammar and structure. 56 is particularly a joke translation-wise.

And Quran teaches a faith similar to Christianity without the misconception about Jesus, obviously, and not of sectarian Rabbinical Judaism. Rituals belong to the Pagan heritage with materialistic gods that needs to be pleased.

Salaam

[amin]

Siva and Bramman are not names of God. Ram, Krishna, Jesus, Zeus, Thor are not different names of the same God. Bhagwaan, The Almighty, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc do refer to the same God.

If we fail to understand that we are worshipping the same God then that means that either we don't accept the same attributes of God ie. eternal, almighty, omnipotent, all knowing, etc. or that we're just selfishly envious of the other or some other things.

We wouldn't be classed as polytheists since is we both worship God who has the same attributes but different names.

Sorry Ted,

I do not agree in your thinking, Ive done some research about the Gods/ilahas people worship and even the root meaning of the names, and come to the idea that every one worships some signs of Him and only the rituals/worship methods differ due to cultural and environmental differences.
It looks all has the basic idea that some uncontrollable power trying to remind them they are on wrong path and show them the right way.
They are sticking to How their ancestors sensed His powers which is different in different places, the problem comes when one do not recognize that everyone is the same and fight that one is superior over other, By the example of Abraham and Rasool Mohammed as muslims one should not think that his God is limited by some idol, some name, some image.

I do not feel Idol or ritual is the main problem, but splitting is the main problem, thereby one is trying to limit his powers, taking ownership of Him to their sect or to themselves. Even most so called muslims does that and in that way they are limiting His powers and His justice favoring their rituals over others.
If one thinks so called muslim tag is enough of his blessings, then we are doomed.

Quran 294
"If the home of the Hereafter with Allah is for you alone and not the people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful."

Quran 2111
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

Add the sect called Shia, Sunni and also "Muslim" along with Jew and Christian.

Quran 2112
Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Quran 2115
To Allah belong the east and the West Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam amin,

Even Allah can become an idol if it is an image that you make separation with. When Allah becomes merely an object and about plain worship (Pagan style) instead of spiritual assimilation then it is no more than an idol/image.

People should research more on what the word Allah/Elohim means. Rabb is the personal address for God and Allah is a collective address and why the narration often speaks in first person plural.

And Allah is just one because there is no more in existence and those who wish to persist need to be absorbed into that consciousness. It works similar to 'the Borg' in Star Trek but with blessed individual capacity within a foundation ('Rabb&#039, nearly like a kind of platform.

Salaam

[Man_of_Faith]

And there are no reason for divisions because concretely there are no real religious doctrines even if there have been traditions such as Passover and other commemorations of the doings of God within communities. But to commemorate the liberation for those who are of the 'Children of Israel' is no more than fair and to remember what God can do despite often remaining passive and subtle is only beneficial to stay on track. If you forget the doings of God and become faithless is a terrible step. To remember knowledge already with people is essential.

And I wonder who in his or her right mind would argue against the sanity of the so-called 'Ten Commandments'. The problem is that so many people have continued to change and expand on those commandments to say "God has said this or that" and then dogmatically and zealously enforce those rules. If you violate and do something which is not goodly/sanctified (haram) then that is your sin and detriment to your soul. If someone is hurt beyond you they have the spiritual permission to avenge that, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth etc and only an equal retribution, but is always better to show mercy despite that. The bonus is huge if one can be hurt and then not return the harm and if one can also wisely change the culprit somehow through good ways then that shows one is affiliated with God.

Prayers have always been a personal venture except in a sectarian environment. Never prescribed by God.

There is no sect but only to tread in the image of God, Allah.

Salaam

[My_Name_is_Ted]

Sorry Ted,

I do not agree in your thinking, Ive done some research about the Gods/ilahas people worship and even the root meaning of the names, and come to the idea that every one worships some signs of Him and only the rituals/worship methods differ due to cultural and environmental differences.

I have no problem with rituals/worship methods being different. These are some of the things that are used to identify religious groups/nations.

A made up false god having one or more attributes of God does not make it the same God. Even if that god teaches people to be righteous, kind caring, forgiving, etc. but then he says that he was born on earth, had parents, eats and drinks, has wives, etc is NOT God. What we need to look for is the truth and worship the true God.

Let's take a look at the god Siva. Siva is clearly not God even though his followers may think otherwise. Siva had a wife and children, he dwelt on earth in human form, ate and drank.

How would you justify Siva as being God?

[My_Name_is_Ted]

People who interpreted it have not been honest at all. They appear to have only guessed when they could not understand the grammar and structure. 56 is particularly a joke translation-wise.

Quran seems to make sense. I have no problem with all the major translations that I've read. They may use different words but the meaning still comes through

[Man_of_Faith]

It is because the translations follow each other's errors for no one cared to challenge the usual interpretation.

And only the one who wants to follow a sect with Pagan practices the mainstream one appeals to. This is why many people distance themselves from it and often faith altogether.

Salaan

[My_Name_is_Ted]

365 O! Fraternity of the book - why do you debate concerning Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not sent down but from after him? So, why do you not understand?

366 Here you are ? the ones who (even) debated about which you had knowledge; then why do you debate about which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows, while you do not know.

367 Abraham did not happen to be a yahudi (i.e. repenter) or a nasara (i.e. helper), but rather, he happened to be a precise muslim (i.e. submissive) ? and he did not happen to be among the assigners of partners (to Allah).

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Don?t you see that the above verse implies following a specific book / external communication is not necessary for being a muslim like Abraham? If your reply is - Abraham followed his own book which was an earlier version of Torah and the Gospel and Qur?an ? than doesn?t that make the above Quranic claim nonsensical? Pay attention brother ? the quoted verses (365-67) clearly imply that following a specific book or any book is NOT A NECESSARY condition for being a muslim.

I think you may have misunderstood the verses above, 365-67, to mean that you don't have to follow a book/external communication to be a muslim like Abraham.

My understanding of verses 365-67 is as follows. Here God is saying that the People of the Book ie the Jews and Christians argue over whether Abraham was a Jew or Christian when in fact he was neither, he was simply a muslim. The Jews and Christians both greatly honour Abraham and probably see him as the founder of the monotheistic faith. Both groups pride themselves as being the true worshippers of God and argue that only they are on the right path.

2135 They say "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

Verse 2135 says that the Jews and Christians say that you should become Jews or Christians if you want to be on the right path to God. God tells the prophet Mohammed to say "no, I would rather follow the religion of Abraham". Implying that the Jews and Christians have brought some corruption into their religion. Part of this being that the Christians say that Jesus is the son of God and some Jews say that Uzair/Ezra is the son of God. Not only that, if the Jews and Christians did truly understand God and their religion they would have accepted Mohammed as a prophet and his followers as people of the same monotheistic faith since what Mohammed was preaching was in fact the same religion/ideology as theirs, he was. All monotheistic faiths teach worship of one God and to work righteousness.

However due to people becoming selfish/arrogant/having pride they find it hard to accept that God guides many people. We should be looking carefully at their beliefs and their deeds before judging. Even so we are ordered to behave in the best way regardless of what other people do/believe since we will all meet God on Judgment Day and He will resolve our disputes for us.

[My_Name_is_Ted]

This is why many people distance themselves from it and often faith altogether.

Have you actually spoken to these people or just guessing? The reason for people turning away from religion are varied. I doubt most of them would find your interpretation appealing/true since it just doesn't tie in with reality and is difficult to understand.

Maybe you think you are the select few who God has chosen to truly understand his words properly. I would advise that you try to understand the Quran in the reality that we live in and base it from that rather going into things which you have no knowledge of.

[Man_of_Faith]

Ted,

If I had not investigated more carefully myself about Quran, I would have reverted to being a Unitarian Christian to be honest. The traditional interpretation of Quran is a degenerate belief to bring elements of Pagan origin into an innocent faith system and a primitive view of God as a distinct and separate object of worship.

Gladly I found without giving up that the interpretation people have is utterly wrong. Quran follows the same kind of teaching that Jesus came with which you can read about in the Biblical Gospels. Just understand what the text says originally wished to convey when it says Father and Son and you might grasp it better.

There is just one God, but that is also the only entity in existence. Everything else is idolatry. Cease to exist yourself and we can perhaps start talking on the same level.

God does only choose after you realize it yourself. And I understand Quran in its reality and it does not teach another Pagan faith. People always drift towards Paganism on their own and their materialistic tendency.

Salaam

[My_Name_is_Ted]

Ted,

If I had not investigated more carefully myself about Quran, I would have reverted to being a Unitarian Christian to be honest. The traditional interpretation of Quran is a degenerate belief to bring elements of Pagan origin into an innocent faith system and a primitive view of God as a distinct and separate object of worship.

Gladly I found without giving up that the interpretation people have is utterly wrong. Quran follows the same kind of teaching that Jesus came with which you can read about in the Biblical Gospels. Just understand what the text says originally wished to convey when it says Father and Son and you might grasp it better.

There is just one God, but that is also the only entity in existence. Everything else is idolatry. Cease to exist yourself and we can perhaps start talking on the same level.

God does only choose after you realize it yourself. And I understand Quran in its reality and it does not teach another Pagan faith. People always drift towards Paganism on their own and their materialistic tendency.

Salaam

OK I now see where you are coming from. So you were an Unitarian Christian before. What made you convert to "Islam" or to put it more accurately a follower of the Quran? I'm assuming that you're now a follower of the Quran.

You seem to have created your own definition of paganism and use that group people of all religions such as Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc in that group. This makes it very difficult for people to understand what you are saying since most people use the definition as described in the dictionary rather than your personal private one. It's similar to your reference of the Ten Commandments. You refer to that yet you use different terms for it which just makes the discussion really difficult to understand. Makes you seem like you are all over the place, incoherent.

Perhaps your definitions, concepts make sense in your own fabricated reality but they don't make much sense in the real world which you actually exist. You exist and you exist in this reality, you need to come to terms with it.

[Armanaziz]

Armanaziz,

Let's say for arguments sake that Mother Teressa and Mahtma Gandhi did actually worship many gods and associate them as partners to God. They did the same good works as before they died.

Would you class them as muslims?

There are many many Christians that do very good charitable work and are selfless, they put others needs before theirs. However they worship Jesus as the Son of God and/or claim he is part of the Trinity.

Would you class them as muslims?

Salam Ted.

Short answer to the above question ?Yes?. Per my understanding ? whoever submits to his God gifted senses of right and wrong, and ?faithfully? lives a righteous life - does qualify for the generic term ?muslim?. That includes faithfully righteous Christians (even who ?worship? Jesus) as well as faithfully righteous Hindus (even who ?worship? various idols). By worship I mean here ?ritual expression of respect? ? not ?being slave to? (ibadat).

To put it in short ? I believe idolatry is a sin and it is a rebellion against Allah. So, an idolater CANNOT be a muslim. But ?idol worship? (without idolatry) is a form of ignorance OR rather and inappropriate/inaccurate method of understanding/approaching piety. Depending on manner of worship and preaching of the same it may be a wrongdoing (zulm) but not necessarily such a severe one that leads to kufr / shirk.

While idolatry and idol worship are generally thought of as the same thing ? I make the following distinction

| Idoltary ? Being slave to an idol (a deity, a person or a concept) in a manner that veneration of the idol becomes a factor in a person?s decision making overruling his personal judgment of right and wrong.

Idol worship ? Ritual expression of respect for an idol (a deity, a person or a concept) which may or may not lead to Idoltary (see above).

Idolaters come in all shape and forms. An idolatar can be an idol-worshiper, a Christian, a Jew or even a so called ?Muslim?. They can even be atheist and budhdhists! Idoltary is about taking an idol (a deity, a person or a concept) and making that idol a reason to spread hatred and envy, a reason to spread corruption and blood-shed and a reason to over-rule one?s God gifted conscience and intellect. Even if the idol is ?One? deity named God or Allah ? they are still idolaters (e.g. ISIS, Boko Haram).

On the other hand "Idol worship" can also take many froms within and outside religion. A hindu worshiper worshiping Ganesha / Rama / Durga is an idol worshipper. A Christian praying to the statue of Jesus is an idol worshiper. A "Muslim" hajji kissing the black stone at kabaa with hope of getting his sins soaked by the stone may be engaged in a form of "idol worship". A patriot saluting a flag or putting flower at monuments commemmorating war heroes may be engaged in "Idol worship".

The same distinction between Idoltary and Idol worship has been discussed by Mahatma Gandhi in details. Gandhi was very aware of the critique of Hindu ?idolatry? proffered by Protestants and Muslims. In a letter of 1940 to a Hindu student troubled over the rupture in his relationship with a Muslim friend Gandhi writes

Maybe your friend has come to think it is sinful to associate with you as you are an idolater. Idolatry is bad, not so idol worship. An idolater makes a fetish of his idol. An idol worshipper sees God even in a stone and therefore takes the help of an idol to establish union with God. (CW 71 303-4).

You can get more details on his religious thoughts here

http//nestor.wlu.ca/press/Journals/sr/issues/31_3-4/salmond.pdf

The above includes also his view of Islam and Christianity. I strongly encourage you to go through this document with an open mind if you are seriously open to learning.

Note a distinction here, though ? Gandhiji was far more tolerant to Idol worship than I am. While he considered it as an acceptable path to piety ? I consider it an inappropriate/inaccurate method of understanding/approaching piety.

Now coming to Christians; if you carefully examine Qur?an what Qur?an specifically forbids are the following claims

1. That Allah has taken a son / sons and daughter (it implies Allah taking ?biological? offspring)
2. That Allah is Jesus, son of Mary (it implies a misconception that Allah is not but a human being)
3. That Allah is one-third of the three (it implies Jesus and Holy spirit to be independent authorities outside Allah) and
4. That one becomes slave to Jesus / Mary other than Allah (it implies taking Jesus / Mary as a factor in a person?s decision making overruling his personal judgment of right and wrong.)

Then if you study mainstream Christian ideology (be it Catholic or Protestant) you will see neither of them advocates any of the above.

1. Knowledgeable Christians do understand that Jesus was NOT a ?biological? offspring of God. Rather Jesus was a spiritual Son of God ? and he showed all of us the path to be the sons of God.
2. Knowledgeable Christians do not say God is Jesus. They say Jesus is Lord. (i.e. Jesus being God?s word living in flesh, a concept that Qur?an endorses, should be considered as the vehicle to understand God).
3. Knowledgeable Christians do not say Allah is one-third of the three. Knowledgeable Christians are strictly monotheist. (See http//www.everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html). In essence they do not differentiate between God and His messenger (Jesus). This is consistent with Al-Qur?an 4150.
4. Knowledgeable Christians are not slave to Jesus / Mary other than God. Because they try to follow the teaching of Jesus which is exactly the will of God.

The understanding of a Knowledgeable Christian is nicely summed up in the below words of Mother Teresa

"There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I?ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs?all different religions. But they all come to our prayers."

"There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ
Jesus is my God,
Jesus is my Spouse,
Jesus is my Life,
Jesus is my only Love,
Jesus is my All in All;
Jesus is my Everything."
(Source https//www.ewtn.com/motherteresa/words.htm)

While I acknowledge the above, I am not personally supporting the statements ?Jesus is the son of God OR Jesus is Lord OR that we should believe in holy trinity?. I consider it exceeding the limits of deen to promote statements like these. While it is possible for knowledgeable Christians to have a correct understanding of God veiled behind the above wordings (Like Mother Teresa had) ? for a vast majority of people these wordings are confusing and misleading. Every community has those common people who ?do not have knowledge of the book without wishful thinking and do not have but beliefs?. The confusing words above have high potential of misleading and deviating them ? just as deviated were the Crusaders, Nazis, KKK and so on. They are the ones who are slave to the ?idol? of Jesus from other than Allah, they are the ones who consider Jesus as biological son of God who will independently intercede with God for his followers. They are the ones who have repressed their faith and they are neither helpers (nasara) nor submissive (muslim).

So, I join the voice of Qur?an to urge all Christian friends to avoid confusing wordings that their fore-fathers have popularized.

4171 O! Fraternity of the book ? do not exceed limits in your resolution (&#1618 and do not say about Allah but the truth. Jesus Christ, son of Mary was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He offered to Mary and a spirit from Him. So, put faith in Allah and His messengers and do not say, ?Three!? Cease! It is better for you. Only Allah is one God. Exalted be Him ? that he would have a son for Him. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belongs to Him and Allah suffices as an Executive.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Note the term ??it is better for you??, as opposed to ??it will take you to hell??or ??it will make you kafir?? etc.

I think you may have misunderstood the verses above, 365-67, to mean that you don't have to follow a book/external communication to be a muslim like Abraham.

My understanding of verses 365-67 is as follows. Here God is saying that the People of the Book ie the Jews and Christians argue over whether Abraham was a Jew or Christian when in fact he was neither, he was simply a muslim. The Jews and Christians both greatly honour Abraham and probably see him as the founder of the monotheistic faith. Both groups pride themselves as being the true worshippers of God and argue that only they are on the right path.

Verse 2135 says that the Jews and Christians say that you should become Jews or Christians if you want to be on the right path to God. God tells the prophet Mohammed to say "no, I would rather follow the religion of Abraham". Implying that the Jews and Christians have brought some corruption into their religion. Part of this being that the Christians say that Jesus is the son of God and some Jews say that Uzair/Ezra is the son of God. Not only that, if the Jews and Christians did truly understand God and their religion they would have accepted Mohammed as a prophet and his followers as people of the same monotheistic faith since what Mohammed was preaching was in fact the same religion/ideology as theirs, he was. All monotheistic faiths teach worship of one God and to work righteousness.

However due to people becoming selfish/arrogant/having pride they find it hard to accept that God guides many people. We should be looking carefully at their beliefs and their deeds before judging. Even so we are ordered to behave in the best way regardless of what other people do/believe since we will all meet God on Judgment Day and He will resolve our disputes for us.

What was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, the tribes ? what was given to Moses and Jesus ? what is common with all of them is the guidance and wisdom that they internalized. It is not a book. Dear brother Ted, why do you debate concerning Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel, the Qur?an and the Sunnah were not sent down but from after him? So, why do you not understand? Abraham did not happen to be a yahudi or a nasara or a shia or a sunni or a Quranist or follower of any ?established religion? based on a book for that matter, but rather, he happened to be a precise muslim (i.e. A self-motivated pious soul submissive to his God gifted conscience and intellect with precise wording and approach to piety) ? and he did not happen to be among the assigners of partners (to Allah).

So, come to Qur?an with an open mind willing to learn and bend down with those who bend, rather than ruling out clear signs as mere statements for the Jews and Christians. For Allah knows and you do not know.

May Allah guide us to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman