Ummayad codification of Quran
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Peaceful greetings
According to historians and research by Pazuzu and others, it seems possible that the setting for events in Quran could be Yemen (or Palestine or Syria) and that Islam as a codified religion didn't develop until the Ummayad period. The original Quran recited (and written?) may have been different from the Quran that Uthman published, the interpretation of verses and meanings of words may not be the same as originally intended, two different persons may have been deemed to be Prophet Muhammed, the one whose actions would reflect Quranic principles and the one that Hadith books describe. Is the Arabic Quran we have now, the protected Book?
As yet we lack the empirical, archeological evidence to be absolutely certain about any of this. Where does it all lead to? Islam based on faith alone? -
Peace Lena,
it seems possible that the setting for events in Quran could be Yemen (or Palestine or Syria)
According to research done by Ayman and Layth, the Prophet was most likely from Northern Arabia near Jerusalem
http//www.free-minds.org/how-did-it-come-part-1
http//www.free-minds.org/where-was-mohammedand that Islam as a codified religion didn't develop until the Ummayad period.
Agreed. There is zero historical evidence of the existence of a town by the name of Mecca/Makkah until the 8th century CE. The earliest reference to a town called Mecca is in the Continuatio Byzantia Arabica, which is dated to about 740CE. The Chronicler of Khuzistan manuscript (dated to the 660sCE) described many towns in Arabia, even small ones, but never mentions Mecca. Sometime in the late Umayyad - early Abbasid era is when this location seems to have gained importance and the reintroduction of Allat's beloved pagan symbols and rituals under the guise of the new religion was completed
http//www.free-minds.org/how-did-it-come-part-1
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10259.msg49965#msg49965The original Quran recited (and written?) may have been different from the Quran that Uthman published
Agreed. Please see the following
http//www.inthenameofallah.org/Codices%20of%20the%20Quran.html
the interpretation of verses and meanings of words may not be the same as originally intended
Agreed. For example "allah", "al-quran", "al-masjid al-haram", "islam", "muslim", "makkat" are not proper names, and "ruku", "sujud", "salat", "zakat", "qibla", "deen", "hajj al-bayt", "shahr", "rajul", "nisaa", "ma malakat aymanukum" etc. have all been misinterpreted or mistranslated.
http//free-minds.org/whats-name
http//www.quran4peace.org/en_index.htmltwo different persons may have been deemed to be Prophet Muhammed, the one whose actions would reflect Quranic principles and the one that Hadith books describe.
Traditionalists contend that the Prophet was born in the year of Abraha's expedition to Arabia. The year of Abraha's expedition as provided on the Sabaic inscription of Abraha translates into about 550CE. This is 20 years before the traditional 570CE birth date of the Prophet. The dates we get from Jacob of Edessa are at least 12 years prior to traditional accounts. Given the evidence, we can reasonably say that the Prophet lived at least 12-20 years prior to when traditionalists claim he lived. This may indicate that the present so-called Islamic calendar is based on an event that took place after the death of the prophet.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10259.msg49965#msg49965
Is the Arabic Quran we have now, the protected Book?
I don't think so. I think the current quranic text might contain some tampering. The original Arabic al-zikr was divinely protected/preserved (159) and therefore it must be present somewhere on this Earth. I am eagerly awaiting the archeological discovery of that original Arabic al-zikr so we can finally have access to the 100% authentic divine guidance. I have expressed my doubts on the 100% authenticity of the current Arabic text of al-quran in another thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606464.0
As yet we lack the empirical, archeological evidence to be absolutely certain about any of this. Where does it all lead to? Islam based on faith alone?
Islam (with a capital I) is a man made religion and doesn't exist in al-quran. However "islam" (small I) is a common noun meaning "peacemaking" and you don't need al-quran or any faith to be a peacemaker/"muslim" (example Abraham). As long as we stick to the basics of service to others (doing good deeds), trust in the infinite Creator, and accountability for our actions, we should be able to progress to the next higher level of existence on our journey back to the infinite Creator.
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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I like your conclusion Truthseeker that Islam is simply about peacemaking. But i have more questions!! So do we just trust that there is a God/ higher power/ internal God given moral/spiritual compass??? that will guide everyone towards peacemaking? How do people who are indoctrinated into this materialistic world get to know and understand islam/peacemaking? Are we born with a dual nature,a propensity towards peace and kindness, and a propensity towards violence and greed? What is the role of genetic mutations and survival of the fittest in islam? Is it necessary to believe in the unseen? Angels? Satan? Jinn? God?
I used "Palestine" for Jerusalem and all of the land taken as Israel. Where exactly is the proposed place of Muhammed on today's map ( Israel or Syria?)
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Agreed. Please see the following
http//www.inthenameofallah.org/Codices%20of%20the%20Quran.html
Peace truthseeker, taken from above site...
Would it surprise the reader of Yusuf Ali's Translation and Commentary of the Holy Qur'an, as it did this reader, that Yusuf Ali refers to a variant reading in Ubai ibn Ka`b's codex of the Qur'an which reads "... and he is a father to them"? With this addition, Qur'an 336 would read
The Prophet is closer
To the believers than
Their own selves,
And he is a father to them
And his wives are
Their mothers...Why does Yusuf Ali cite this variant? Is it possible that he sees this variant as an improvement?
Here is world's oldest Qur'an available; although faded the text is visible upon close examination ...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607061.0
http//oi58.tinypic.com/n4f6zn.jpg
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Peace Noon,
I am well aware of your thread. This copy of al-quran is the oldest discovered so far but is not the first original Arabic text.
The date of birth of the Prophet being pushed forward by 12-20 years by the fabricators implies that he must have died 12-20 years earlier also. Taking the possible dates of this copy of al-quran of 649 to 675 CE and actual date of death of the Prophet around 620 CE makes this copy about 30-50 years after the death of the Prophet and a lot can happen in 30-50 years.
I have a feeling that the controlling powers may have already discovered the first original Arabic text of al-quran and are deliberately hiding it from the world and/or not allowing private archeological excavation in the relevant areas. Maybe one day they will mysteriously release that copy just like they released this copy that you are referencing. They might have had this copy that you referenced hidden in their possession for a long time and just released the news. Ever thought about that?
What about the Sana'a parchment fragments of al-quran carbon dated to before 671 CE with 99% accuracy? There is 95.5% probability of being older than 661 CE and 75% probability of being older than 646 CE. The discovered fragments do not contain the complete text of al-quran. The lower text contains significant diversions from the current standard text. There is evidence of fabrication and tampering in the parchment fragments. The lower text (which contains significant diversions from current text) was erased and written over, and replaced by upper text which is similar to the current text. Due to presence of metals in the ink, the lower text has resurfaced, and now appears in a light brown color.
http//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/soth.htmlExample of tampering
Several words are missing within a paragraph leading to a different meaning
Sahih International translation ?? (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper. 974
Sana'a manuscript, ?DAM 0 1-27.1?, translation ?? (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them in this world. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.
The finishing letter, ?Alif?, in ?yatawallaw?, ?they turn away?, found in today?s standard text of the Quran is missing in the early manuscript under discussion, as indicated by the empty box with a black frame above. Moreover, in the the verb ?yu?addibhum?, ?he (Allah) will punish them?, found on ?Fol. 16r, Z.13?, is not explained with ?adaban aliman?, ?with a painful punishment?, as in the Standard Text (StT). There one finds ?fi?l-dunya wa-?l-ahirati?, ?in this world and in the Hereafter.? The Sana'a manuscript contains only ?in this world? and therefore fits better with the end of the verse in both versions ?And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.?
The above from
http//www.answering-islam.org/authors/oskar/palimpsest.html
THUS NO PAINFUL PUNISHMENT IN HEREAFTER ACCORDING TO SANA'A FRAGMENT.
Please let me know when you find the first original Arabic text of al-quran.
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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I know differences in available copies of Quran.
Many Quran versions skip placing the 'madda' on alefs which is very important for understanding, if they know how to interpret the text. I personally realized this recently. It is often possible to derive the right interpretation from context, but sometimes it can arise confusion and risk of misinterpretation.
And it is particularly and I am talking about. Without this marker the letter lacks an important notifier if the letter is supposed to be part of the meaning of previous letter or gain a meaning of its own. It seems native to the original text as part of grammar.
means not - the meaning of (alef) is by default bound to the previous letter
means "thereof be" or "of which be" - the madda gives (alef) "standalone meaning.The has more importance to the meaning than mere pronunciation, compared to or which are just inserted by people to "help" in pronunciation.
I realized this when I found inconsistency in my understanding and thought for a second that I was wrong about my argument about as not. Checking another Quran version showed that my version (Zekr) had skipped these markers.
I also noticed that translators ignored the presence or absence of a madda while interpreting / in passages from time to time as if unaware that it plays a significant role in interpretation.
Salaam
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Peace Lena,
So do we just trust that there is a God/ higher power/ internal God given moral/spiritual compass??? that will guide everyone towards peacemaking? How do people who are indoctrinated into this materialistic world get to know and understand islam/peacemaking?
Every human being has a built in inclination/compass/conscience that guides and we should learn to listen to it.
3030 So establish yourself to the obligation of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in the creation of God. Such is the pure obligation, but most of the people do not know.
The opposite of peacemaker/"muslim" is not disbeliever. The opposite of a peacemaker is a criminal
- Shall we make peacemakers (al-muslimeen) like criminals (al-mujrimeen)?
Everyone naturally knows that corruption and bloodshed is the opposite of peacemaking. Common nouns such as "peace" and "peacemaking" are universal concepts that God taught humans and they spontaneously appear across cultures, even those that didn't have any contact with one another.
A criminal corrupts and causes bloodshed. On the other hand, by being peacemakers, humans fulfill the responsibility that God entrusted them with. If you are not a peacemaker (muslim) you are a criminal (mujrim) and you will serve yourself (selfishness = root cause of all "bad", and if you are not a criminal you are a peacemaker and you will serve others (do good deeds). We have been given the free will to choose between the two (service to others or service to self), and there will be karmic consequences/implications of this choice (accountability of actions).
muslim = peacemaker = service to others (STO)
mujrim = criminal = service to self (STS)All modern day countries have laws against crime, and people who uphold and enforce the laws and don't commit crimes are thus peacemakers/"muslim".
Are we born with a dual nature,a propensity towards peace and kindness, and a propensity towards violence and greed?
Yes, due to the law of free will. We have the free will to choose between service to others (peace, kindness, good deeds), and service to self (greed, power, violence etc.).
What is the role of genetic mutations and survival of the fittest in islam?
Irrelevant as far as becoming a muslim versus a mujrim.
Is it necessary to believe in the unseen? Angels? Satan? Jinn? God?
One can be a muslim/peacemaker without any beliefs. Service to others (good deeds, peace, kindness) is not dependent on any belief system. The opposite of peacemaker/"muslim" is not disbeliever.
I used "Palestine" for Jerusalem and all of the land taken as Israel. Where exactly is the proposed place of Muhammed on today's map ( Israel or Syria?)
Most likely southeast of Dead Sea around the town of Al-Mazraa (old towns of Bab edh-Dara and Numeira) in Jordan.
http//www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/The-Discovery-of-the-Sin-Cities-of-Sodom-and-Gomorrah.aspx#Article
37133 And Lot was one of the messengers.
37134 When We saved him and all his family.
37135 Except an old woman who remained.
37136 Then, We destroyed the rest.
37137 And you pass by them in the morning;
37138 And in the night. Do you not comprehend?May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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The date of birth of the Prophet being pushed forward by 12-20 years by the fabricators implies that he must have died 12-20 years earlier also.
Peace, truthseeker -- where you get pushed date of birth from elephant story?
1051 did not see how dealt lord your with companions the elephant
What about the Sana'a parchment fragments of al-quran carbon dated to before 671 CE with 99% accuracy?
It had a 95% (2σ probability of belonging to the period between 578 CE and 669 CE.
Example of tampering
Several words are missing within a paragraph leading to a different meaning
Sahih International translation ?? (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper. 974
Sana'a manuscript, ?DAM 0 1-27.1?, translation ?? (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them in this world. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.
The finishing letter, ?Alif?, in ?yatawallaw?, ?they turn away?, found in today?s standard text of the Quran is missing in the early manuscript under discussion, as indicated by the empty box with a black frame above. Moreover, in the the verb ?yu?addibhum?, ?he (Allah) will punish them?, found on ?Fol. 16r, Z.13?, is not explained with ?adaban aliman?, ?with a painful punishment?, as in the Standard Text (StT). There one finds ?fi?l-dunya wa-?l-ahirati?, ?in this world and in the Hereafter.? The Sana'a manuscript contains only ?in this world? and therefore fits better with the end of the verse in both versions ?And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.?
What is your point, every Qu'ran parchment is perfectly transcribed like they had Microsoft Office?
THUS NO PAINFUL PUNISHMENT IN HEREAFTER ACCORDING TO SANA'A FRAGMENT.
Perhaps check verse prior and/or cross-reference with all other verses on punishment.
973 O you the prophet strive the deniers and the hypocrites and be harsh on them and abode theirs gehenna/hell and wretched the destiny
974 ... so if repent they it be best for them and if turn they of punishes them the god punishment of painful of in the world and the afterlife and not for them in the earth from guardian and not intercessor
2217... so surely those be lost deeds theirs in the world and the afterlife and surely those owners the fire themselves therein eternally being
322 surely those the ones be lost deeds theirs in the world and the afterlife and not for them from helpers
356 so as for the ones disregard they of so punishes them punishment of severe of in the world and the afterlife and not for them from helpers
2419 surely the ones loving that spread the immorality in/concerning the ones believe they of for them punishment of dire in the world and the afterlife and the god knows and you not knowing
Please let me know when you find the first original Arabic text of al-quran.
To each is shown eventually the truth anyways.
4174 O you the humankind hence came you proof from lord yours and descended we of toward you light of (enlightenment) pronounced 4175 so as for the ones believe they of in the god and hold fast they of in him so shall enter for them in mercy from him and bounty and shall guide them toward him path of straight
Peace