Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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So what did you mean by the following
As I said before, the Jews and Christians claim that you need to follow their religion in order to be guided, but God is saying no, whoever follows his guidance is on the right path. This means God can guide whoever he pleases, it is not exclusive to to the Jews and Christians. Please note this is external guidance not the "God gifted guidance" which you refer to and use to justify all righteous people as being classed as muslim.
To be classed as a muslim you need to be following external guidance from God. You cannot follow your own will and claim it is the God gifted will you are following hence you are muslim. The Jews will be judged by the Torah, the Christians by the Gospels, the Muslims by the Quran, the people of Abraham by their book, etc.
There is not one verse in the Quran which says that you are born muslim. It in fact clearly says you become muslim, you are named muslim. It is a different group to those who are simply believers.
I think you, are completely wrong on that bolded part.
Quran 22/17
Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associated with Allah - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, over all things, Witness.and
Quran 3.84
Say (O Muhammad) We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we haveSo whoever makes no distinction between any of their versions of God is a Muslim.
anyway Let Him be our Judge, I will also stop on this topic.
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Peace Ted,
I will try to explain to you in very simple terms what a muslim is according to Quran.
The opposite of peacemaker/"muslim" is not disbeliever. The opposite of a peacemaker is a criminal
- Shall we make peacemakers (al-muslimeen) like criminals (al-mujrimeen)?
Hence, according to Quran, "muslim" is one who makes peace or a "peacemaker" (one who is not a criminal).
So if you are not a criminal, you are a "muslim"/peacemaker. As simple as that. It has nothing to do with any religion or belief system.
Everyone naturally knows that corruption and bloodshed is the opposite of peacemaking. Common nouns such as "peace" and "peacemaking" are universal concepts that God taught humans and they spontaneously appear across cultures, even those that didn't have any contact with one another.
A criminal corrupts and causes bloodshed. On the other hand, by being peacemakers, humans fulfill the responsibility that God entrusted them with. If you are not a peacemaker (muslim) you are a criminal (mujrim) and you will serve yourself (selfishness = root cause of all "bad", and if you are not a criminal you are a peacemaker and you will serve others (do good deeds). We have been given the free will to choose between the two (service to others or service to self), and there will be karmic consequences/implications of this choice (accountability of actions).
muslim = peacemaker = service to others (STO)
mujrim = criminal = service to self (STS)All modern day countries have laws against crime, and ANYONE who upholds and/or enforces the laws and doesn't commit crimes is thus a peacemaker/"muslim".
You could be a Jew, or a Christian, or a Buddhist, or a Pagan, as long as you uphold and/or enforce your local laws and don't commit crimes and make peace, you are a muslim.
But if you are a Muslim (capital M, proper name, follower of a fabricated religion), and you commit crimes and are a criminal, then you are not a muslim (small m, common noun, used in Quran).
May the infinite Creator bless you.
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Once again, divine "books" are external guidance - an extra help for those who are submissive - they are not the destination.
The Quran and Torah are not only "extra help for those who are submissive". They contain laws that MUST be obeyed otherwise you are no longer muslim.
544 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
547 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
548 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
The above verses clearly say that the revelations given to groups of Muslims, ie Jews, Christians, followers of Mohammed have to be used when judging each follower of their respective adherents. It is in fact God's intention to give separate laws and rites to certain groups of people. It is not God's intention to only have Jews or to only have Christians or to only have Quran followers. Each group is expected to respect and believe in the other groups. All groups are still classed as muslims since they each obey a will of God. Because they are muslims you can say their religion is Islam. Hence it makes sense that in God's eyes there is only one religion in front of God which is Islam.
Any person/people who creates their own religion it won't be accepted. So those who create books/laws/rituals which have not been prescribed by God via external communication such as revelation then it will never be accepted. Hence why bida/innovation in religion is prohibited in the Quran to stop people creating their own traditions/rituals.
Those believers who simply worship one God and work righteousness but do not follow one of "religions" prescribed by God for whatever reason God MAY forgive them or maybe it's God's intentions to leave them in that state, I don't know. That's between them and God. However these believers must not say anything about God which they have no knowledge of as it will be a lie against God which is a very big sin.
Hope the above makes sense.
I do acknowledge the following comment made by yourself. I shall try to word my comments more clearly to avoid confusion.
I never said you can follow your "will" and claim it is the God gifted will to be a muslim. "Will" is not synonymous to "Conscience".
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Salamun Alaikum.
Without going into the definition of "muslim" (for I consider that a closed topic from my part), it makes sense to discuss a bit about verses 544-548 to analyze why it is critical to judge between men based on scriptures.
Our conscience and intellect is our tool for making decision about our personal choices. But when it comes to judging between people we need to adhere to some basic standards. For example, if a thief steals from me, and gets caught, I may be personally willing to forgive him - and if he has only stolen from me of course I have full authority to forgive him. But if I catch a thief who has stolen from me as well as my neighbor - I CANNOT forgive him on my own account. I must resort to the established law to decide how to judge between the thief and my neighbor. If I belong to a community which is guided by Qur'an, the community has a responsibility to cut-off his "hands" (i.e. his ability to steal again). This can be achieved by implementing a punishment that acts as an effective deterrent, like putting him behind bars for enough time to get counselling and corrective measures or putting him under rigorous supervision of a guardian. The actual punishment must also be proportionate to the harm caused by the crime committed to ensure equitable treatment (a'dl).
Similarly if someone shoots me, I may choose to forgive the criminal on my death bed. But if a criminal kills an innocent person, we must establish the principle of equitable retribution (quisas) when judging between them. It is not up to the judge to forgive a killer.
When it comes to bequeathal of my personal wealth, I can exercise my judgment. If I have a daughter who is a single mother struggling financially and a son who is financially solvent - and they are my only heirs - I can choose to bequeath 80% of my wealth to my daughter and 20% to my son based on consultation with my children. But when it comes to intestacy - a community is obliged to implement a predetermined distribution ratio to avoid chaos.
Thus the justice system works on the basis of pre-determined standards or laws that are generally accepted within a community.
Now it would again be oversimplification to say that every community is obliged to follow some form of "divine scripture" for implementing justice. Revelation through messengers is one of many routes through which God guides people. Furthermore divine scriptures generally provide broad guidelines open for further interpretation and practical implementation. If a community has chosen their law based on public consultation and expert opinion and there is community wide acceptance of the laws derived as such - such laws would become binding upon that community. And individuals within that community would be obliged to accept such laws.
However, it is the law makers obligation that if there is a debate of correct direction of law, for example if there should be any capital punishment or not or what would be the ideal intstate distribution rule, that they resort to divine scriptures (if any) acceptable to the community to get the basic guidelines.
458 Indeed Allah commands you that you deliver the trusted items to its family / fraternity and when you judge among men that you judge equitably. Indeed Allah gives you an excellent instruction thereby. Indeed Allah happens to be Listener, Seer.
459 O! Those who have put faith ? obey Allah and obey the messenger and the ones of command among you. Then if you disagree in anything, then turn it back to Allah and the messenger - if you happen to put faith in Allah and the last day. That is the best and the nicest interpretation.
(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Quran verse 544
Sahih International Translation
Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.Tell me if my understanding is right,
Indeed Its Allah who sent down the Torah in which there was a guidance and light, the Prophets who considered God as One, judged(whats right and wrong) for the Jews, as did the Rabbis and scholars who were also entrusted of the Torah judged (whats right and wrong) for the jews. They were all witnesses only, so do not fear the people but only fear Me, and do not take my verses lightly, and whoever does not judge(consider right or wrong) by Allah's examples, then they are called the disbelievers.
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Ted,
To be honest, Quran does not contain any additional "laws" that was not already available at its advent.
Besides the commandments, except no separate image of God whatsoever, are so obvious that it is barely necessary to mention them. Those who are hardcore sectarians break them just as often as faithless people anyway.
Salaam
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Tell me if my understanding is right,
Indeed Its Allah who sent down the Torah in which there was a guidance and light, the Prophets who considered God as One, judged(whats right and wrong) for the Jews, as did the Rabbis and scholars who were also entrusted of the Torah judged (whats right and wrong) for the jews. They were all witnesses only, so do not fear the people but only fear Me, and do not take my verses lightly, and whoever does not judge(consider right or wrong) by Allah's examples, then they are called the disbelievers.
What understanding? All you have done is re-write the verse with some words bolded and a couple of them changed.
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Ted,
To be honest, Quran does not contain any additional "laws" that was not already available at its advent.
Besides the commandments, except no separate image of God whatsoever, are so obvious that it is barely necessary to mention them. Those who are hardcore sectarians break them just as often as faithless people anyway.
Salaam
Sorry but I failed to see the relevance of this comment.
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However, it is the law makers obligation that if there is a debate of correct direction of law, for example if there should be any capital punishment or not or what would be the ideal intstate distribution rule, that they resort to divine scriptures (if any) acceptable to the community to get the basic guidelines.
What if the vast majority (99%) of a Muslim community decide to do away with life for life punishment in the Quran for murder and instead sentence the murderer to life imprisonment even though the family of the murdered person demand that he should receive the death penalty as stated in the Quran?
If the Quran is just "help"/guidance then I'm assuming that according to your understanding they should be allowed to override the command in the Quran since 99% of the Mulsim community don't want to implement it.
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What if the vast majority (99%) of a Muslim community decide to do away with life for life punishment in the Quran for murder and instead sentence the murderer to life imprisonment even though the family of the murdered person demand that he should receive the death penalty as stated in the Quran?
If the Quran is just "help"/guidance then I'm assuming that according to your understanding they should be allowed to override the command in the Quran since 99% of the Mulsim community don't want to implement it.
Salam Ted.
Actually "life imprisonment" can also qualify as a life-for-life punishment. The "life" of a killer imprisoned for life is effectively taken away without committing another man-slaughter. If that is the interpretation that 99% of a "Muslim" community is satisfied with, that is the law they would make and that would be binding upon the community.
Let's look at the verse on Qisas
2178 O! Those who have put faith - qisas (equitable rettribution) is prescribed for you ? for murder - the freeman (for murder) by the freeman, and the slave (for murder) by the slave, and the female (for murder) by the female. Then whoever is pardoned for it by his brother (accepting) anything then follows up with due fairness and discharges upon it nicely ? that is a concession from your Master and mercy. Then whoever transgresses after that so for him - a painful suffering.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Does the verse literally say that you have to "slaughter" the killer?
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However, to give you a more general answer - when absolute majority of the community become suspicious or doubtful about a specific ruling based on Qur'an that is sufficient red flag to revisit the earlier interpretation. God's message can never be conflicting to human conscience. We should always keep the doors open to revisit Qur'an and accept the best interpretation that conforms to our conscience and intellect. Qur'an gives the generic guideline - the interpretation/ implementation may change over time to suite the changing needs of the society and changing circumstances.
The verses of Qur'an are "signs" from our Master. We should take the guidance from the signs in deciding what is the correct course of action. We should not be fanatic about a specific interpretation to be the only correct / plausible interpretation.
1039 No! They denied whatever they couldn?t capture of its knowledge and whose interpretation had not been brought to them ? that?s how denied those from before them. Then see ? how the end of the wrongdoers happened to be.
(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking is recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
I can choose to bequeath 80% of my wealth to my daughter and 20% to my son based on consultation with my children.
The key thing is that you need approval from your children and wife before you do that. They have rights as laid out in the Quran which you must obey as a muslim and follower of the Quran. If your other children and wife disagree and are extremely wealthy and want their share in full you can do nothing at all as a muslim. However as someone who just regards the Quran as help/guidance then feel free to ignore it but you wouldn't be classed as a muslim since you have disobeyed the will of God..
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Actually "life imprisonment" can also qualify as a life-for-life punishment. The "life" of a killer imprisoned for life is effectively taken away without committing another man-slaughter. If that is the interpretation that 99% of a "Muslim" community is satisfied with, that is the law they would make and that would be binding upon the community.
This is just your opinion and I don't agree with it. It's life for life. If a community of Muslims re-interpreted such clear verses to something else then in my opinion they are deviants and no longer muslims.
Does the verse literally say that you have to "slaughter" the killer?
Yes it does. Your comment reminds me of verse 3167.
3167 And the Hypocrites also. These were told "Come, fight in the way of Allah, or (at least) drive (The foe from your city)." They said "Had we known how to fight, we should certainly have followed you." They were that day nearer to Unbelief than to Faith, saying with their lips what was not in their hearts but Allah hath full knowledge of all they conceal.
When people don't like something or agree with it they try to change it or make excuses up.
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However, to give you a more general answer - when absolute majority of the community become suspicious or doubtful about a specific ruling based on Qur'an that is sufficient red flag to revisit the earlier interpretation. God's message can never be conflicting to human conscience. We should always keep the doors open to revisit Qur'an and accept the best interpretation that conforms to our conscience and intellect. Qur'an gives the generic guideline - the interpretation/ implementation may change over time to suite the changing needs of the society and changing circumstances.
You say "God's message can never be conflicting to human conscience". What do you say of the verse below?
5822 Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity.
So far I have not seen any verse in the Quran whose interpretation/implementation could change over time. Do you know of any?
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Salam Ted.
I can choose to bequeath 80% of my wealth to my daughter and 20% to my son based on consultation with my children.
The key thing is that you need approval from your children and wife before you do that. They have rights as laid out in the Quran which you must obey as a muslim and follower of the Quran. If your other children and wife disagree and are extremely wealthy and want their share in full you can do nothing at all as a muslim. However as someone who just regards the Quran as help/guidance then feel free to ignore it but you wouldn't be classed as a muslim since you have disobeyed the will of God..
Qur?an gives me full responsibility and 100% authority and autonomy to decide what I would do with my wealth (See verse 2180-182). It is every parent?s responsibility to support their children ? one child may need more financial support than the other - it is up to the parent to decide, the parents are not bound by any responsibility to establish "clinical" equality among their children. Still, it is possible to act unfair - If I am being unfair ? that is between me and my Master.
The guidelines in Surah 4 are exclusively guidelines for intestate legacy distribution. They apply after all debts and any will that the deceased left have been settled. These verses do not imply a ?right? of the heirs to claim / coerce their relative to not leave a will.
The verses are clear enough for me. If you know better, let?s agree to disagree.
Actually "life imprisonment" can also qualify as a life-for-life punishment. The "life" of a killer imprisoned for life is effectively taken away without committing another man-slaughter. If that is the interpretation that 99% of a "Muslim" community is satisfied with, that is the law they would make and that would be binding upon the community.
This is just your opinion and I don't agree with it. It's life for life. If a community of Muslims re-interpreted such clear verses to something else then in my opinion they are deviants and no longer muslims.
Good; let us both keep our opinions. Or do I become a non-muslim if I have an opinion? Perhaps, I become a non-muslim if I freely think on the verses of Qur?an, right?
Does the verse literally say that you have to "slaughter" the killer?
Yes it does. Your comment reminds me of verse 3167.
If it really did you would give me the exact words or an another verse on the same topic instead of jumping to an unrelated verse to show me how ?munafiq? I am.
You say "God's message can never be conflicting to human conscience". What do you say of the verse below?
5822 Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity.
Wow! The above verse shows that God?s commands CAN be against human conscience? How wonderful ?interpretation?! Exalted be Him! And Exalted is He above what they depict.
728 And when they perform an immoral act they say, ?We found our fathers on it ? and Allah commanded us with it.? Say, ?Indeed Allah does not command immorality? do you say about Allah what you do not know??
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
So far I have not seen any verse in the Quran whose interpretation/implementation could change over time. Do you know of any?
Let?s see ?
- Creation of heavens and earth in six days (754) used to be interpreted as six solar days ? but now that our knowledge has advanced, we know it is better interpreted as six epochs.
- Sun moving in orbit (1433) used to be understood as an orbit around the earth. But now-a-days ?generally? understood as sun moving in its orbit in milky way galaxy.
Now let?s move to commandments - Cutting-off ?hands? of thieves (53 used to be understood purely literally. But a more allegorical interpretation is gaining increasing acceptance.
- To marry in twos, threes and fours (43) used to be considered as a permission to marry multiple wives concurrently. But, that interpretation is increasingly losing ground.
- ?What your right hand possess? (43) used to be understood as referring to slaves. But it is now almost universally accepted that Islam does not accept slavery.
- Husbands were thought to have ?license? to beat-up their wives (434). But the verse has seen changing interpretation throughout time from scholars of both conservative and reformist school.
Dear brother Ted ? you live in a dogmatic world where you have been made to believe that Qur?an came with one fixed interpretation and being ?muslims? it is our inviolable obligation to learn that interpretation from the scholars and follow them blindly. Praise be to Allah ? my Master has led me out of that darkness (blindness=darkness, you know). I have now understood being ?muslims? my only inviolable obligation is to uphold my God-gifted conscience and intellect and only if I can do that with full sincerety, I can take the ?best? from the Qur?an and perhaps my Master would guide me accordingly.
As I said before, for now this difference in our outlook seems irreconcilable. Let?s pray to Allah ? your Master and my Master. Perhaps one day He will guide us both to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Ted, Arman,
May I remind you that Quran, even in its traditional biased interpretation, says that it is much better to forgive the offense no matter what the crime if you can. That is more righteous and shows that you can display mercy which is part of our test of character. It is never good to be forced to punish someone, even if it may be a solution.
It does say life for a life, but that is to protect the culprit from abuse in the original "law" of Moses primarily from exaggerated punishment rather than focusing on giving rights to the victim and family. If a community chooses to employ a different punishment such as life imprisonment that it a substitute and not even that punishment a good one. The community should attempt to mend the incarcerated person rather than just seal him or her off, in a real muslim-oriented society.
The ultimate retribution God/Rabb will deliver so there is no need to worry about that and the Rabb is not unfair. I am not sure why people are so attracted to delivering punishment such as it matters anyway in the end because man can only kill bodies but the Rabb can kill both body and soul. Get some faith.
A person with some real faith would not really seek to get anyone at all prosecuted. Rather help those you can and leave those who never reformed to the Rabb. Pity them.
Amen that
Salaam
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Cutting off hands, marrying multiple women etc, were never okay. It is a wishful interpretation of the original Arabic discourse. It is not that the text has ever changed for over thousand years, only perhaps that some people have become wiser when it comes to interpretation of something that had the same meaning for all that time.
Salaam
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Cutting off hands, marrying multiple women etc, were never okay.
Salam.
I would humbly express my disagreement with the above remark.
Cutting off hand as an "exemplary punishment" could be okay, if the original act of theft/robbery*, had the comparable level of barbarity involved in it. This was specially true for societies which lacked organized prison systems.
Marrying multiple women and even not marrying at all (i.e. sex without marriage) was acceptable at certain stage of development of human society. Human beings did not bring the institution of marriage "from heaven". The institution of marriage was developed in human societies through gradual evolution. And gradual was the move from socially acceptable polygamy to socially mandated monogamy (observed in virtually every society).
We cannot take the reality of our time and based on that judge our forefathers - that they were worng to take multiple wives or have slaves. Nor can we take their reality to judge what is acceptable for us. The verses of Qur'an are generic. We need to interpret and understand them based on the need of our time and our society. Hunt for a "one-size-fits-all" interpretation will only lead us to debate and disagreement.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
*P.S. The arabic term Saariq covers both theft and robbery
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May I remind you that Quran, even in its traditional biased interpretation, says that it is much better to forgive the offense no matter what the crime if you can. That is more righteous and shows that you can display mercy which is part of our test of character. It is never good to be forced to punish someone, even if it may be a solution.
Should the followers of the prophet Mohammed fought and killed others when God commanded them to? Or maybe you think that's another wishful interpretation? Maybe the followers should have just suffered or debated with the pagans until they managed to convince them.
What about when the Children of Israel refused to fight when God commanded them to fight the Canaanites? Were they right to refuse? Should God and Moses have gone and fought on their behalf?
Maybe God wasn't right to cause the floods and drown the people of Noah killing many, many women and children. Or maybe God should have left Pharaoh just be instead of drowning him and his people? Or left Qarun alone with the his riches and just let him enjoy it. Is exulting in wealth a crime punishable by death?
Seems to me some people on this forum are forgetting that we need to fear God first and the love him.
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Ted,
Lot of the warfare allegedly in Quran are wishful interpretations, yes.
If God truly gives the command to go in and kill people somewhere then it is unquestionable, but usually that is not the case.
But my point in no matter if your life is ended now or in 1000 years you cannot avoid your destiny. Being instantly killed through punishment is not really any big deal but rather what comes next. If you live 30 years or 80 years does not really matter.
It was God who ended the lives of Noah's people and not Noah. And that was due to their noteworthy unrighteousness.
It was God who ended the lives of Pharaoh and company and not Moses' people. God could have made it for the Children of Israel to rebel and start a civil war instead but that is simply not the essence of this faith you are supposed to follow.
God is only ending a society when it indulges in oppressive, violent and very sinful behavior. And that is because they would otherwise disturb the test. Otherwise God does not do any particular interference in this world except for those who have joined the realm of Allah.
Salaam
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Salaam Arman,
That does not have any Quranic support however even if you find it just to cut off a man's hand. It is barbaric.
However, if a man wounds a person, the law gives right to equal punishment and if the wound was a lost hand the "law" makes it possible to cut off the hand of the culprit, although some kind of mercy is always better.
On the other hand, in the case of theft then the punishment should be taking from the resources of that man to an equal value of what was taken or some sort of justification in jail time if this is in the law. This goes entirely after the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth".
These kinds decapacitation punishments are considered inhumane in the developed world and it is thus not able to use as a punishment under current laws. And I never hope we go back to such system either.
And polygamy was never anything intended by God but man and woman separate from their parents and become as one body. That was the original design. If man has allowed it then that is from men and God knows better what is better for its own design and that is one and one.
The passages of Quran are not generic or to be interpreted according to our time because they are so general that they can be followed "as is" at any time in history. It is about principle.
Quran mentions not polygamy nor any cutting of hands but that is people who have forced this interpretation out of an innocent text.
Salaam