Why the way Salat is done seems right to me
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Hi all,
Basically I think the way salat is conventionally done today, as its done in the mosques and by the majority of the muslim public, is right, and I believe this can be proved using the verses of the Holy Koran itself. Before i go into that just wanna point out that I am a God alone believer (actually a convert from a polytheistic religion) and a complete hadith rejecter, and the point of view I talk abt below was bought to my attention by a close friend, and is not entirely mine.ok, basically i think the way the ritual of salat is taught is right comes from analyzing the following verses
"2.43" And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down
"3.43" O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.
In these verses, we're told to "bow down with those who bow down" Now this could mean the PHYSICAL act of bowing down, or the ALLERGORICAL meaning of submitting with those who submit. Ok so far so good.
Now, check these verses out
"2.177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that ...."
39.9 What! he who is obedient during hours of the night, prostrating himself and standing, takes care of the hereafter ...
The parts highlighted in bold clearly refer to PHYSICAL actions. Now if you consider the prayer ritual as we are taught, we turn our faces left and right ("east and west"), we prostrate and stand and we bow down. So far, this tells me these are indications that the salat ritual as conventionally done MAY be correct.
MAIN LOGIC but now, here's the main reason which convinces me that the conventional method of salat is correct the whole muslim community has managed to mess with everything else they've split the religion into sects, they 1000 different hadiths, they've made up the sharia, but the ONE thing NONE of these people have been able to do is change the way prayer is performed. Everyone, sunni's, shia's etc have not been able to change the prayer method, just like they havent been able to change the Koran. The style, language everything is the same.
Moreover, the site of the Kaaba, which we know must be blessed because of the confirmed miracles there (zumzum & birds not dropping any poop) .. at the Kaaba prayer is made in the conventional method(as far as i know). I personally do not believe that something as blessed as the Kaaba could be subject to such MASS disobedience as a wrong, made up prayer method by every believer who visits.
Last but not least, if you believe that verse 62.9 (below) refers to the Friday prayer, then if we are told to drop everything and attend the call for prayer on Friday with everyone else. That means they must be right abt the prayer call, the time must be right, the fact that your supposed to pray with everyone else must be right and the way they pray must be right. Only then would the logic in this verse work.
"62.9" O you who believe! when the call is made for prayer on Friday, then hasten to the remembrance of Allah and leave off trading; that is better for you, if you know.
Well thats the logic as I see it. Obviously, would love to hear everyone's point of view on this.
Peace -
Peace,
Remember, we need context for verses usually, reading verses before and after the ones you've chosen can be helpful.
"2.43" And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down
First off, 'prayer' in this case is up for debate, the FM translation currently has 'contact-method', which is one of the possible meanings of 'salat'. As for 'pay the poor rate', this I think is generally accepted by muslims who follow God alone as false, 'zakat' means to purify, there is nothing about tax or obligatory charity giving every year in the Quran. And I'm not sure on this but 'bow' could mean 'submit'? The FM translation has 'kneel' currently.
The verse after this one says "Do you order the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Scripture? Do you not understand?"
Personally, I am currently of the opinion salat is a method of remembering God while doing the good deeds God wants us to do, and this verse attached to the end of the previous one which mentions salat briefly, makes alot of sense.
"3.43" O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.
In these verses, we're told to "bow down with those who bow down" Now this could mean the PHYSICAL act of bowing down, or the ALLERGORICAL meaning of submitting with those who submit. Ok so far so good.
Yep, I'm thinking its more of the concept of submitting to God's system of living, rather than physically bowing. Because we both know God is 'closer to us than our jugular vein'
"2.177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that ...."
This verse is used alot by muslims who follow God alone to prove that the traditional prayer is false. Think about what its saying, being righteous has nothing to do with us turning our faces anywhere, God is not a physical being on this planet, right? The full verse, according to FM translation is basically what Islam is, and it is not doing traditional prayer many times to get to heaven, it is a proactive way of life to make life for everyone peaceful
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
39.9 What! he who is obedient during hours of the night, prostrating himself and standing, takes care of the hereafter ...
Salat although still up for debate, is not traditional prayer, though 'dua' is a form of prayer, and we're told it can be done standing or lying down, whenever and whereever, it is a form of meditation, to cleanse the mind and to attain a moments peace for oneself, reflecting on life. The verse after this one is again fitting with my current perception of what salat is. After the verse about praying or meditating at night, it then tells us the basic explanation of salat which is to work righteousness in this world.
399 As for one who is meditating in the night, submitting and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord. Say ?Are those who know equal to those who do not know?? Only those who possess understanding will remember.
3910. Say ?O My servants who believed, be aware of your Lord.? For those who worked righteousness in this world will be a good reward, and God's earth is spacious. Those who steadfastly persevere will receive their recompense fully, without reckoningRighteousness gets you to heaven, not just constant prayer.
MAIN LOGIC but now, here's the main reason which convinces me that the conventional method of salat is correct the whole muslim community has managed to mess with everything else they've split the religion into sects, they 1000 different hadiths, they've made up the sharia, but the ONE thing NONE of these people have been able to do is change the way prayer is performed. Everyone, sunni's, shia's etc have not been able to change the prayer method, just like they havent been able to change the Koran. The style, language everything is the same.
Moreover, the site of the Kaaba, which we know must be blessed because of the confirmed miracles there (zumzum & birds not dropping any poop) .. at the Kaaba prayer is made in the conventional method(as far as i know). I personally do not believe that something as blessed as the Kaaba could be subject to such MASS disobedience as a wrong, made up prayer method by every believer who visits.
Again, I think you'll find alot of muslims who follow God alone be very wary of the cube in Mecca. God is not a physical entity residing on this planet, 'He' surely does not live in a cube in Mecca, the translation of 'kabba' is up for debate, for example a person called Aidid Safar thinks it to be 'ankles' (one of the derived meanings of the word 'kabba') and the whole section on 'hajj' in the Quran is about wildlife conservation. Others derive the word 'debate' or 'challenge' from the word 'hajj'. In any case, I dont think Mecca is a special land, zamzam is just regular water sold for expensive prices no doubt, and none of the rituals people do on hajj are outlined in the Quran. There is definitely nothing about stoning a bunch of pillars.
Last but not least, if you believe that verse 62.9 (below) refers to the Friday prayer, then if we are told to drop everything and attend the call for prayer on Friday with everyone else. That means they must be right abt the prayer call, the time must be right, the fact that your supposed to pray with everyone else must be right and the way they pray must be right. Only then would the logic in this verse work.
"62.9" O you who believe! when the call is made for prayer on Friday, then hasten to the remembrance of Allah and leave off trading; that is better for you, if you know.
Yep, this does seem to be about some kind of assembly, leaving trading for a while, still need to ponder it some more. But I dont agree that this verse validates the traditional prayer method as I've given my opinions above.
Well thats the logic as I see it. Obviously, would love to hear everyone's point of view on this.
PeaceWe're always growing the more knowledge we get, I've used the FM translation in this post because we're on FM, but bear in mind 'contact-method' is always up for debate, I prefer 'commitment/obligation/follow closely (all derived from the word 'salat'). I cant say I'm right about anything, I only have constantly developing opinions, and now you know them! Peace.
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Peace all.
THOSE WHO DO NOT PRAY FIVE TIMES ARE MUJRIMON, AND WILL BE IN THE HELL FIRE? (SAQAR)
And (ask) of the Sinners (MUJRIMON) What led you into the SCORCHING FIRE (SAQAR)? They will say "We were not of those who PRAYED;" "Nor were we of those who FED the indigent;" "But we used to talk vanities with vain talkers;" "And we used to BELIE the Day of Recompense 7441/42/43/44/45/46
My understanding of the above verse is based on logic.
Who are the MUJRIMON?
I scanned the whole Quran and extracted all the verses which contained MUJRIM and summarised it as follows
Those who belie the prophets 6147
Those who belie the signs of Allah 740
The people of HUD, SALEH, SHUAIB, LUT, FIRAWN, and all others who were destroyed
Those who disbelieve after believing (apostate) 966
Those who forge a lie against Allah 1017
Those who luxuriate in the wickedness 11116
Those who are the enemies of the prophets 2531
Those who turn away from the verses / signs when reminded 3222
The disbelievers of the Quran 3431/32
Those who are (NON SUBMITTERS) opposite of the MUSLIMEN (SUBMITTERS) 6835The above summary of MUJRIMON is the salient features of the DISBELIEVERS and has nothing to do with the BELIEVERS.
The above MUJRIMON who are not BELIEVERS will say, "WE DID NOT PRAY" "WHY"?
PAYERS ENJOINED ON WHOM?
INNA AS.- S.ALAAH KAANAT cALAA AL- MU'MINEN KITAAB(AN) MAWQOT(AN) 4103
Verily, the PRAYER is ENJOINED on the BELIEVERS at fixed hours. 4103
The PRAYER is enjoined on the BELIEVERS but the above MUJRIMON who are not BELIEVERS will say, "WE DID NOT PRAY" inspite of the fact that it is not ENJOINED on them.
It should be the BELIEVERS who should say " WE WERE NOT OF THOSE WHO PRAYED"
Why the MUJRIMON (DISBELIEVERS) will confess on the DAY that they were not of those who prayed? (FIVE TIMES RITUAL)?
This confession should come from the BELIEVERS and not from DISBELIEVERS
The above explanation is a convincing proof that the SALAT in the above verse is not that, what the MUSLIMS believe and practice, but a commitment to uphold all the laws and commands of Allah.
All the DISBELIEVERS who are NOT MUJRIMON would be in (NAARE JAHANNAM) Hell fire.
But the DISBELIEVERS who ARE MUJRIMON would be in SAQAR. WHY?
And what is SAQAR?
'INNA AL- MUJRIMEN FE D.ALAAL WA- SUcUR YAWM YUSH.ABON FE AN- NAAR cALAA WUJOH -HIM DHOQO MASS SAQAR 5447/48
Verily, the MUJRIMON are in error and will burn The Day they will be dragged in the Fire on their faces (it will be said to them) "Taste you the touch of SAQAR!" 5447/48
Anon shall I ROAST him into the (SAQAR) Scorching Fire. And what knoweth thou that which the (SAQAR) Scorching Fire? It shall not spare, nor leave. Withering / parching /Scorching to the skin / human. 7426/27/28/29
Because the APOSTATES and the DISBELIEVERS (MUJRIMON - salient features) have committed a heinous crime against Allah, therefore deserve to be roasted in the SCORCHING FIRE.
Those who DISBELIEVE in our SIGNS We shall soon cast into the fire as often as their skins are ROASTED through We shall change them for fresh skins that they may taste the penalty for Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. 456
Whereas those who are DISBELIEVERS and NOT MUJRIMON will burn in Hell and they will be the fuel of the fire.
Verily, those who DISBELIEVE, neither their properties nor their offspring will avail them whatsoever against Allah; and it is THEY WHO WILL BE FUEL OF THE FIRE 310
Those who hold SALAT as five times RITUAL PRAYER should ponder over the above explanation.
Thanks
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Hi beatnik,
thanks for the reply. Your post basically says that righteousness is more important than prayer. There's no doubt there, I'm not even questioning that. I'm basically discussing whether the traditional ritual of salat/prayer (whatever u call it) is correct or not.Verily, the PRAYER is ENJOINED on the BELIEVERS at fixed hours. 4103
Now the above prayer proves that something (prayer, salat, contact method) has been prescribed at specific times. Thus prayer/salat/contact method is a different thing from righteousness, and prayer and righteousness canNOT be used interchangeably.
Now there is no doubt that you can "address" God whenever, whereever, however you want, what I'm trying to figure out is what we have to do AT THESE PRESCRIBED TIMES. (e.g. before sunrise and before sunset).
Now consider this this verse
39.9 What! he who is obedient during hours of the night, prostrating himself and standing, takes care of the hereafter and hopes for the mercy of his Lord! Say Are those who know and those who do not know alike? Only the men of understanding are mindful
To me, theabove verse addresses a physical action taking place at a definite time. ie, it clearly talks about prostrating and standing at night.
From what iunderstand, the first line of the above verse talks about one who is "obedient" meaning who is obeying the commandment of God to pray at the ordained time (night). Righteousness and randomly praying to God are separate issues from this altogether.Add the above to the verses i discussed in my first post, and it seems to me that the traditional method of salat is on que.
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Peace all,
I think there is still room for debate on whether we're commanded to 'salat' from sunup to sundown and through parts of the night if possible. This is a clear difference between salat at sunup and at sundown, and at possible times in the night.
But I'm no expert and my learning of Arabic and roots and all the rest of it is going very slowly due to uni.
As for 3999, you're translation is clearly different in tone to FM's translation, so we have to take into account the translator's motives (which is why I want to learn Classical Arabic).
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beatnik,
once again, thanks for the reply. I think while reading translations, getting into semantics can throw you off, coz different words mean different things to different translators. A little logic usually helps, imo.