Out of Curiosity.......
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Peace Novice,
You are correct in pointing out that I make a supposition in my reading of 6121.
My reading could well be biased, alternatively, it could be inference based on an understanding of other verses on the same topic.
My studies are on-going.
I'll be sure to update the forum if my understanding alters.
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Peace FindingRightPath,
Well, I didn't know they face animals towards Kaaba? Wouldn't that be honoring it to a house? I am confused.
Yes, that falls under "what was sacrificed to other than the God" and makes it "haraam" as per 53.
I wonder how is Kosher meat then? Should I buy from them? Do they also face animals towards any house, etc?!
Following is Kosher method of slaughtering
Kosher slaughtering
The mammals and birds that may be eaten must be slaughtered in accordance with Jewish law. (Deut. 1221). We may not eat animals that died of natural causes (Deut. 1421) or that were killed by other animals. In addition, the animal must have no disease or flaws in the organs at the time of slaughter. These restrictions do not apply to fish; only to the flocks and herds (Num. 1122).
Ritual slaughter is known as shechitah, and the person who performs the slaughter is called a shochet, both from the Hebrew root Shin-Cheit-Teit. The method of slaughter is a quick, deep stroke across the throat with a perfectly sharp blade with no nicks or unevenness. This method is painless, causes unconsciousness within two seconds, and is widely recognized as the most humane method of slaughter possible.
Another advantage of shechitah is that it ensures rapid, complete draining of the blood, which is also necessary to render the meat kosher.
The shochet is not simply a butcher; he must be a pious man, well-trained in Jewish law, particularly as it relates to kashrut. In smaller, more remote communities, the rabbi and the shochet were often the same person.
http//www.jewfaq.org/m/kashrut.htm#Certification
Also see
http//m.wikihow.com/Properly-Slaughter-a-Cow-Under-the-Kosher-Method-Shechitah
It does not look like they face the animal towards any pagan idol, so in fact Kosher meat would be "halaal" per 55.
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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Salam Man of Faith,
Sorry for replying so late, I was very busy preparing for the interviews I did for my new company
I do believe that 'salat' and 'mentioning God's name' are not just body moves and uttering of words, if they are not true submission to God and true glorification to Him, then they should not be done at all, and that is part of what God says in which is not to come near salat if you don't know what you're saying. If you don't understand what you're saying, out of any reason, whether your're tired, or ill or anything, just don't do it. Cause salat is not just 'uttering of words' it's a mental state with feelings and a whole spiritual experience. You truly glorify God, you truly humiliate yourself in front of Him, and if those meanings are not there, then there is no point of doing it at all.
If your understanding of salat is correct, then given verse
"Say "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well) for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."
God is telling the messenger to do salat in a moderate tone, not too loud, not too low, so why God is telling the messenger not to do salat in loud tone if it doesn't include 'uttering of words'?
"A conscious human would communicate and talk to GOD several times per day without any specific schedule"
Of course, you communicate with God anytime you like, but also God wants you to devote yourself to him in certain times of the day, and wants you to preserve this salat ,,,, You could communicate anytime you want, this is your will, but God's will is something different and specific, you are required to communicate in a particular time of the day ,, and after doing the so called wodo'
In , God mentions two prayers or salats by name, dawn prayer, or Fajr, and night prayer, or Ishaa'. Why God specifically mentioned those timings?
I have no problems changing my understanding to salat or any other topic no matter how big or small it is if I found evidence from the Quran that changes my understanding .. At the contrary, I feel blessed and happy that my understanding became better and that I came more closer to God. I noticed that your understanding of both 'mentioning the name of God' upon slaughtering animals and 'salat' isn't backed with verses I could get back to! That leaves me wondering to be quit honest.
May God guide us all and give us more wisdom and knowledge.
Salam
Ahmed -
Salam FindingRightPath,
In verse God is telling us to mention his name over the animals when they are alive, at the time of slaughter, and then after that we may eat from it, so it is clear from the Quran that the name of God is not meant to be mentioned at the time of eating, but at the time of slaughter. Also note that all the verses talking about 'mentioning God's name' is related to animals, not plants or vegetables or any other type of food, so we are only told to mention the name of God 'just' at the time of killing animals, not every time we eat like traditionally understood.
In my opinion, The fact that Sunnis face animals towards Kaaba doesn't change the fact that they are mentioning the name of God only on it. They don't say Mohammed's name or any other name on it, So they don't break the rule. They mention God's name , they don't mention other names , they don't just kill it! even if they do something extra, that doesn't make that exact slaughtering of the animal pagan, nobody said that Muslims worship kaa'ba!
"And why should you not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been mentioned while He has explained in detail to you what He has forbidden you, excepting that to which you are compelled. And indeed do many lead astray through their inclinations without knowledge. Indeed, your Lord - He is most knowing of the transgressors."
Salam
Ahmed -
Salaam ahmed,
No problem. I understand that you have other things to do.
I have been studying the phenomenon of salawteh for the past year, and while I have made progress and also considered that there is enough circumstantial evidence to rule out a strict timed ritual, I have not been able to provide "the final blow" to silence critics.
I made a realization and had to admit that a musalla can be a congregation where a cleric or enlightened person holds a seminar to preach the faith. Salawteh is the perception you gain from such an event, i.e. the resulting object in your mind.
If you pray at a House of GOD then that is called du'a and this word is the valid word for 'to pray'. You can see examples of this in Quran. Famous figures such as Abraham makes a du'a to the Rabb.As for 2458 that has been a tough nut to crack. However, I tell you that if it would refer to a definite event then the Arabic ij the passage would have said AL-salawteh al-fajr and not just simply . The translation needs a better rendering, but what I suspect is that the phrase would speak of before perceived the dawn based on my progress on the understanding of the root .
And as for the root I do not buy that it connotes on prayer because there is no argument for that except corrupted Arabic dictionaries with several definitions for each Arabic word despite that Arabic words have only one meaning and pray is not one of them.
Do you not see the absurdity of praying birds in the sky?
The passage with the birds are instead supposed to say that they follow something, i.e they are innately guided and that is the lesson of the parable. There you have the meaning of the root as well; "to follow something" which means to let yourself be guided.
Moses was told that GOD was with him for as long as he "aqum al-salawteh" which means as long as he followed guidance.
That is among the circumstantial evidence.
And Lane's Lexicon is quite thorough with the example of "following something closely", so I am not only claiming this without backup from other sources than my own words.With the added suffix the word is substantiated and made an object with given characteristic (ت.
This is however another question for 2458 when it says salawteh alfajr unless it would imply perception of the dawn.
You also have grammatical variations (for example 1187) where sometimes it says salawtek with the third person suffix changed for 'you' leaving it with only the objectifier . Obviously if one likes to twist it they can say prayer, but they rather, in 1187, refer to the perception/guidance of Shu'ayb.
If we return to 2458 then perhaps it could refer to guidance parent to son/daughter at dawn before daily work takes precedence and also after sunset. It is still important to notice it does not say AL-salawteh in 2458. Al-fajr is also a given attribute to the preceding salawteh meaning the refers to it. Still if it was a definite event in the morning or evening the Arabic would have used the AL prefix.
2238 is also another controversial passage which allegedly says guard your prayers and the middle prayer, but this is only a very imaginative interpretation. The phrase "hafezawa aela alsalawt" says be observant/apply on the perception/lesson which refers to the context where 2238 is found. Please look at the surrounding passages and you may get a hint at what it may refer to. It is very much out of context if it was in the middle of a coherent context.
The reason is because 2238 is involved in what the context speaks of, i.e. (allegedly) family matters. The passage continues wa alsalawteh alwusta and where it is unlikely alwusta refers to middle because in the context it would say just/balanced perception/lesson. It can be understood that the previous passage's lesson is what is most important of them all.
In all the 2238 refers to the taught lesson of the context and to wholeheartedly apply it and thus be conscious of GOD as 2238 ends.Personally I consider part of 2237 to be meant to be a part of 2238 as in Allah sees what you do, i.e. GOD sees that you... observe this perception and a just/balanced perception.
Note that there is a grammatical difference between and which I have trouble translating into English. While refers to this particular perception as per example given in the context (since it does not add any additional suffix on salawt) refers to gathered perception, i.e. all the guidance which you can acquire. The al-wusta refers to your view of the world and what you follow and to say it should be just/fair.
The translation as perception for salawt is because it is the most coherent adaptation into English I could manage. When you can see what you should follow then you have perception. The birds perceive that they should follow the other birds in formation as per the alleged praying birds example. Literally the clerics in a temple convey perception although this can be called preach. Inspire could be another alternative, perhaps, but it lacks precision. You could also say teach in English although that is not true to the Arabic. It is a demonstration/presentation. Guide is a very good alternative. That collides with traditional huda , but then I tell you huda means gift/bless/grace someone and not specifically guide.
Again I tell you that the reason you use musalla for an event at the temple is because it is a guidance lesson. It is meant that an inspired/enlightened cleric should have a guiding session and not ritually pray.
Obviously praying may be part of musalla, but musalla does not equal to praying.
If you still doubt me then consider twice what I wrote and think upon praying birds and how much sense it makes that the first thing GOD says to Moses was to observe a ritual prayer rather than saying that if he follows/is attentive to The Rabb's guidance then he is with GOD.
It does not make any sense with a ritual for salawteh and that should be obvious. I have struggled for a whole year with criticism despite that all the signs are there that it does not refer to a ritual prayer. Even if you just neutrally observe the salawteh occurrences in Quran without delving into research much and changing any translation you could see the inconsistency because that was what first made me suspicious. My early research on salawteh was a mere contextual analysis and you have it in the thread which is called 'Nearness and Guidance' (you can search for it).
I have known for more than a year, perhaps nearly two years about ketaab and its meaning. It does not mean book but it means as according to Lane's Lexicon decree and if you have a decree as an object form then that is knowledge. The root means to decree something and the result (as ب is knowledge. The literal meaning of kutub is "to make knowledgeable" (100% literally "Cause Characteristic With" while sources opted for "to decree" and you can see the consistency. I can live with decree because it is okay. "To make knowledgeable" is the result of my own research and not credible for many people who oppose my claim of 'Innate Letter Meanings' of the Arabic alphabet.
Considered Quran it makes a huge difference contextually if you change book for decree/knowledge and you can even make sense of phrases such as ahl alketaab. Now with the adaptation it refers to adherents to the knowledge. I never accepted "People of the Book" as a valid statement.
Salaam
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Peace ahmedrezk and Man of Faith,
We like to ensure that threads are kept as close to the subject of the thread as much as possible.
Discussing ?lh in this thread is therefore counterproductive as there are countless other threads wherein this subject is discussed.
By all means, feel free to start a new thread if you wish, or continue your discussion in an existing thread, but please keep to the subject of this thread which is meat and the issues surrounding its legality.
Thank you.
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Salaam uq,
Please accept my apology for derailing the topic.
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Peace FindingRightPath,
Yes, that falls under "what was sacrificed to other than the God" and makes it "haraam" as per 53.
Following is Kosher method of slaughtering
Kosher slaughtering
The mammals and birds that may be eaten must be slaughtered in accordance with Jewish law. (Deut. 1221). We may not eat animals that died of natural causes (Deut. 1421) or that were killed by other animals. In addition, the animal must have no disease or flaws in the organs at the time of slaughter. These restrictions do not apply to fish; only to the flocks and herds (Num. 1122).
Ritual slaughter is known as shechitah, and the person who performs the slaughter is called a shochet, both from the Hebrew root Shin-Cheit-Teit. The method of slaughter is a quick, deep stroke across the throat with a perfectly sharp blade with no nicks or unevenness. This method is painless, causes unconsciousness within two seconds, and is widely recognized as the most humane method of slaughter possible.
Another advantage of shechitah is that it ensures rapid, complete draining of the blood, which is also necessary to render the meat kosher.
The shochet is not simply a butcher; he must be a pious man, well-trained in Jewish law, particularly as it relates to kashrut. In smaller, more remote communities, the rabbi and the shochet were often the same person.
http//www.jewfaq.org/m/kashrut.htm#Certification
Also see
http//m.wikihow.com/Properly-Slaughter-a-Cow-Under-the-Kosher-Method-Shechitah
It does not look like they face the animal towards any pagan idol, so in fact Kosher meat would be "halaal" per 55.
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
Peace,
I don't think the the animals here are faced towards Kibla because even God's name is not said directly in most slaughtered cases as it is non-muslims who are doing it. So, I am not exactly sure, but I will ask around!
Also, I think Kosher allow some type of food and wine which Muslim don't allow and vice versa even though both Kosher and Halal are very similar. So, I guess if I want to buy Kosher food, I will have to refrain from wine mixed into anything, etc.
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Salam FindingRightPath,
In verse God is telling us to mention his name over the animals when they are alive, at the time of slaughter, and then after that we may eat from it, so it is clear from the Quran that the name of God is not meant to be mentioned at the time of eating, but at the time of slaughter. Also note that all the verses talking about 'mentioning God's name' is related to animals, not plants or vegetables or any other type of food, so we are only told to mention the name of God 'just' at the time of killing animals, not every time we eat like traditionally understood.
In my opinion, The fact that Sunnis face animals towards Kaaba doesn't change the fact that they are mentioning the name of God only on it. They don't say Mohammed's name or any other name on it, So they don't break the rule. They mention God's name , they don't mention other names , they don't just kill it! even if they do something extra, that doesn't make that exact slaughtering of the animal pagan, nobody said that Muslims worship kaa'ba!
"And why should you not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been mentioned while He has explained in detail to you what He has forbidden you, excepting that to which you are compelled. And indeed do many lead astray through their inclinations without knowledge. Indeed, your Lord - He is most knowing of the transgressors."
Salam
AhmedPeace,
Yes, I know God's name is supposed to be mentioned at the time of slaughtering, but from what I have heard, it is really hard to do this here in NY. I heard they just have God's name on knife or something. There are however some cases where I have heard who actually do mention God's name directly, but they are few or rare. That's why I say God's name before eating food just in case even if it says Halal. I know it is not the same, but saying God's name is better than nothing! Again, though, I will search about this issue more in my area and see if I can get actual Halal food as per Quran.
They face animals towards Kaaba and that means they honor it! That's honoring a house saying God's name. If it is nothing, why do they have to face the animals specifically towards the same direction? Why can't they just face any direction and not just a specific one all the time? I find it odd and don't feel okay with it.
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Salaam,
They face that building because it is interpreted by them that Quran says this is the direction to set out wherever you are. They think of it as a sacred heading and the building is regarded as holy.
It is similar to that buildings often were directed towards Jerusalem in the past.
It gives a Pagan feeling over it.
In the era of other gods such as Jupiter etc they also had certain shrines for those.
Salaam
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"And why should you not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been mentioned while He has explained in detail to you what He has forbidden you, excepting that to which you are compelled. And indeed do many lead astray through their inclinations without knowledge. Indeed, your Lord - He is most knowing of the transgressors."
Salam ahmedrezk
How do you understand verse 55?
(
Sahih International
This day good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.Peace
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They face animals towards Kaaba and that means they honor it! That's honoring a house saying God's name. If it is nothing, why do they have to face the animals specifically towards the same direction? Why can't they just face any direction and not just a specific one all the time? I find it odd and don't feel okay with it.
Well, In verses ,,, and many other verses; God is mentioning a "Holy Mosque" or a "Sacred Mosque", So I can't see a problem in considering some buildings sacred or even some months according to the Quran. It might be a whole different topic, So to make things simpler, God has mentioned the rules by which food becomes lawful or not. And I don't think Sunnis think of another god but God when they slaughter animals, They just do what they think God is telling them to do, and it certainly doesn't include mentioning other gods.
Peace
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How do you understand verse 55?
(
Sahih International
This day good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.Peace Novice
With regard to our topic, This verse is removing the doubt that if Christians or Jews are the ones who slaughtered the animals and they mentioned God's name on it that we would eat from it. In other words, Their food is lawful for us If they didn't break the halal rules in the Quran.
Peace
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With regard to our topic, This verse is removing the doubt that if Christians or Jews are the ones who slaughtered the animals and they mentioned God's name on it that we would eat from it. In other words, Their food is lawful for us If they didn't break the halal rules in the Quran.
Salaam ahmedrezk
You mean if Jews and Christian slaughter as per your understanding of The Qur'an only then The God's command in verse 55 is valid. ???
May The Creator guide us to understand His book.
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Salaam ahmed,
If there is any salawa thread then this is the best choice I think.
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Salaam ahmedrezk
You mean if Jews and Christian slaughter as per your understanding of The Qur'an only then The God's command in verse 55 is valid. ???
May The Creator guide us to understand His book.
Yes. If they mention God's name only, and did not kill it violating verse , then it is lawful to us.
What are you pointing at with your question? Please clarify.
Peace
Ahmed -
Pretty much straight forward, i refraim from dead animals, blood, pork, anything dedicated to other than God or with tendency to intoxicate.
As for animals slaughtered without mention of God, i consider this lawful as far as another being wasn't mentioned over it. The verse 6121 requires mention of God before eating not necessarily before slaughtering. The verse is not specific to meat but generally to food. Hence, if we interprete from this verse that animals slaughtered without mention of God is unlawful, similarly we must interprete that dishes or snacks commonly prepared without mentioning God are unlawful!
Contrary to what someone explained earlier Qur'an 2236 doesnt support the interpretation that meat of animals slaughtered without mentioning of God is unlawful even if the eater mention God b4 eating the meat. Qur'an 2236 has to be seen in it context; procedure for an hajj rite. It doesn't indicate animals slaughtered without mentioning God is unlawful for consumption.